But what could a 6th possibly be? I realize of course that I don't NEED a full party by any stretch, but from a purely academical perspective I'd like to know if there is something missing. A big reason why I'm having trouble deciding, of course, is the fact that I wouldn't know what weapon to give them. The +APR ones are all taken, so dual-wielding loses a lot of its appeal. I could OH Crom Faeyr for 25 STR, but paired with what? Spectral Brand? Axe of the Unyielding? Nothing seems too appealing. And class-wise, what could I take? I'm worried I'm running out of proper equipment/scrolls for yet another arcane caster, I already have a thief and cleric... what, then, could I be missing?
Anyone got any ideas?
wow i just realised you are defending so much improved haste+critical hit HLA but only inquisitor and swash will use fighter HLAs so the best team would be fighter/cleric fighter/thief inquisitor fighter/ilusionist times many for the rest so all of them could use critical HLA
While CS is good, it's not indispensable. Consider that bosses and several other types of mobs are immune to crits, so all it does is give auto-hits - exactly the same as Timestop will give you. Going multiclass will however mean you lose Kai - and that actually adds substantial amounts of damage, regardless of who you are fighting against.
My main argument involving CS is that it should be picked over GWW; it's part of why GWW is so overrated. It's not objectively a must-have.
While CS is good, it's not indispensable. Consider that bosses and several other types of mobs are immune to crits, so all it does is give auto-hits - exactly the same as Timestop will give you. Going multiclass will however mean you lose Kai - and that actually adds substantial amounts of damage, regardless of who you are fighting against.
My main argument involving CS is that it should be picked over GWW; it's part of why GWW is so overrated. It's not objectively a must-have.
that is true but staff of ram is still the second best weapon if considered damage alone and impaler 3rd damage 2handed weapons are great for GWW
im curious what changed crom in modded verions of BG
I'm still trying to figure out what exactly caused the CF change. It seems to be doing exactly the damage of an unmodified Hammer of Thunderbolts for me.
As for SoR (and Impaler), it's certainly a good weapon; it does however more or less REQUIRE use of GWW to get full value out of it. And GWW does not last very long, while several fights do. 2h damage quickly tapers off outside of GWW due to lack of APR. In addition, many 1h weapons also confer other benefits (like the 22 STR from Angurvadal).
All in all, the damage difference isn't THAT substantial. What makes SoR's damage shoots through the roof is anything involving multipliers, i.e. backstab. There is no weapon that can match SoR in that regard (discounting Staff of Striking), not even close. On plain attack damage, it's still good - just not as bonkers as you'd think.
I don't like high level thieves, because their levels bring so little to the table. With high fighter levels, at least you get more fighter HLAs and also slightly more HP (which matters, given how much incidental magic damage is thrown around).
I also find UAI highly overrated. Armors are pretty irrelevant at higher levels, given how ridiculous enemy THAC0s are in ToB. Scrolls are in limited supply, and often eaten by my other mages instead of used (the useful ones anyway). The important wands can already be used by pretty much anyone. There's not really any class- or character-specific items that are worth using (that I'm not using on someone else already). Really, the ONLY reason I go for UAI (and the high dual) is for Scarlet Ninja-to.
In essence, my Sw->F dual is sort of a multiclass; it kicks in late, but it also gets more powerful in the end. I do admit that my setups tend to be ToB-heavy - perhaps that is not optimal. I just found that I had the most trouble with ToB fights, and not SoA ones. Ascension and Eclipse remain, to me, the most difficult battles in my game, and both are ToB.
That being said, I am still very much debating this very issue. The difference in damage output between a K->T and a Sw->F is not as significant as between other setups. The main difference are the HLAs and HP pools, really. Even the late regaining of levels is not as relevant as you may think, as you still end up with being a fighter for a long time - you do lose the thief with Sw->F, but on the other hand you also start SoA without one if you go the other route. In principle, I found that early SoA can actually be quite annoying with my setup, as you are quite vulnerable; whether a F or T will help more, though, that is difficult to say.
Thanks for responding. Below is a comparison of some F/T combinations.
All combinations are compared at the XP of a Swashbuckler 24 (3,080,000 XP) -> Fighter 25 (4,250,000 XP) [Total 7,330,000 XP]. All HP increases at level up are maxxed (for consistency in comparison). All Stats maximized for the given race for the purpose of comparison.
Fighter 22 - Thief 26 multi [CON = 19 / Half-Orc or Dwarf] HP = 157 HLA = 19 (UAI + All the rest Fighter HLAs if you like) XP at which the Scarlet Ninja-to can be used by way of UAI = 3,000,000 XP needed to regain initial class abilities = N/A *Proficiency Points = 11 *Natural AC = 6 *THAC0 = -3
Kensai 13 -> Thief 37 ... [CON = 18 / Human] HP = 196 HLA = 14 [Thief only] XP at which the Scarlet Ninja-to can be used by way of UAI = 4,330,000 XP needed to regain initial class abilities = 880,000 *Kai = 4 uses *Proficiency Points = 20 *Natural AC = 4 *Kensai: THAC0 = -5 / +4 to hit / +4 to damage
Kensai 21 ->Thief 28 ... [CON = 18 / Human] HP = 186 HLA = Fighter 2 / Thief 5 XP at which the Scarlet Ninja-to can be used by way of UAI = 6,330,000 XP needed to regain initial class abilities = 2,640,000 *Kai = 6 uses *Proficiency Points = 20 *Natural AC = 4 *Kensai: THAC0 = -10 / +7 to hit / +7 to damage
**In testing, I was unable to dual in game from Swashbuckler to Fighter, but was able to dual a Thief to a Fighter. Have no idea why. So the numbers may only apply to the latter, though I suspect that they are similar. Maybe Lord_Tansheron can provide the necessary corrections here. @Eudaemonium - That's the reason (Using Rogue Re-balancing). Thanks for pointing that out.
Thief 24 -> Fighter 25 ... [CON = 18 / Human] HP = 117 HLA = 7 [1 Thief + 6 Fighter] XP at which the Scarlet Ninja-to can be used by way of UAI = 3,080,000* [Corrected] @Lord_Tansheron - Thanks for the correction. XP needed to regain initial class abilities = 4,250,000 *Proficiency Points = 16 *Natural AC = 1 (Swashbuckler Lvl 24) / 6 (Thief) *Swashbuckler +1 to Hit & Damage per 5 levels (Does this start at Lvl 1 or Lvl 5?) *THAC0 = -3
Hope this data will help to choose an F/T.
-------------------
I agree that UAI is not all that great, but as long as you are going to the trouble to get it, using it with a Kensai has considerable advantages, weapon expertise gauntlets, armor that protects from magic or elemental damage, Cloak of Montolio, etc.
Considering the XP gains and increased safety for the party of de-trapping and lockpicking being available all through the game, I'm leaning toward the multi.
If you use the Level 1 NPC mod, Korgan would make a very good Fighter-Thief or Kensai-Thief multi.
**In testing, I was unable to dual in game from Swashbuckler to Fighter, but was able to dual a Thief to a Fighter. Have no idea why. So the numbers may only apply to the latter, though I suspect that they are similar. Maybe Lord_Tansheron can provide the necessary corrections here.
Do you have Rogue Rebalancing installed? Because that disables Swashbuckler>Fighter dualling.
Keep in mind, though, that these XP values only represent the regain-point for a hypothetical T24->F25 - the game does continue on after that point. In fact, that's the important thing about it, as the entire build was done with ToB-heavy endgame in mind. Naturally it will fall behind in numbers and efficiency at earlier stages of the game (such as the 7.3M xp breakpoint in this example).
HP, for example, is skewed in favor of F->T duals at that point, because of the initial CON bonus for single-digit levels. However, T->F duals will eventually catch up in HP values, because F levels >10 award 3HP/level, while T levels only award 1HP/level.
I usually end my game somewhere in the neighborhood of 9-10M xp per character (with a full party), i.e. roughly 2M more than your example. At 250k/level for fighters and 220k/level for thieves, that translates to about 8/9 more levels respectively for a dual, and 4/5 respectively for a multi.
Your table did provide some very interesting insights, though.
For one, it showed that the dmg/hit bonuses of the Swashbuckler and Kensai (at the levels in question) were about even. This has an important ramification, because the flat bonuses being equal, Kensai wins because of Kai (and speed factor, though that's not overly relevant).
However, there's also the issue of HLAs. These vary wildly in their efficacy; my game, for example, has a lot of backstab/trap immune mobs and bosses. This makes Thief HLAs almost useless. If your game does not have those restrictions, though, going in with a 10APR Assassination, or popping 5 Spike Traps is *utterly* devastating. HLAs were in fact what motivated my Sw24->F experiment in the first place, essentially resulting in a sort-of F/T multi with fighter HLAs only + UAI.
Speaking of UAI: there is one important thing you did not consider for your table, likely because you did not know. If you start as a thief and get UAI, then dual into another class, YOU KEEP UAI EVEN WHILE THE THIEF IS INACTIVE. I believe this is due to the way UAI is coded in the game, as a one-time permanent modification of the character, not the class. This is a very important factor to consider because UAI for use of SNT was the whole reason I started this experiment in the first place.
What that means is that a F/T multi and a T24->F will be able to use SNT at exactly the same point, i.e. 3080000xp. This makes the regaining of F levels far less gimped, as you can use a powerful weapon (and have more HP than your should at that low level).
However, the difference between 3080000xp and 4330000xp, when a K13->T would gain access to SNT, is still relatively small. That in turn means that even SNT is not a heavy argument for either choice.
So, once again, we return to special abilities. These seem to be what makes or breaks the choice. Essentially, these are your options:
F/T multi: F and T HLAs K13->T: T HLAs and Kai T24->F: F HLAs
A difficult decision. Without access to Timestop (Time Trap is not nearly as effective), the value of the Critical Strike HLA increases. Kai however is a substantial damage increase against any type of enemy. The various utility HLAs (Hardiness, Avoid Death, etc.) are useful, but not gamebreaking.
I think that given the power of Kai at endgame, and the rampant crit-immunities, you have convinced me that K13->T may in fact be the better choice after all. Though to be fair, the difference remains quite slim, and potentially not having an early game thief can be annoying.
Thanks for the data, it was in fact quite helpful and enlightening! If anyone else has something to add, please chime in - these sorts of discussions are what makes these forums great!
90 (fighter base hit dice, 1d10 per level 1-9; assuming max roll) +12 (+3 per level after 9 = 3*4) +36 (+4 per level 1-9 for CON 18) _____ = 138
then dual to thief and reach lvl37:
+24 (1 per level, no gain for 1-13 due to dual = 1*24)
TOTAL HP for Kensai 13->Thief 37: 162
======== ========
Now the same for a 24 thief with 16+ CON:
60 (thief base hit dice, 1d6 per level 1-10; assuming max roll) +28 (+2 per level after 10 = 2*14) +18 (+2 per level 1-9 for CON 16+) _____ = 106
then dual to fighter and reach lvl25:
+3 (yay!)
TOTAL HP for Thief 24->Fighter 25: 109
Still a substantial difference, though not QUITE as much. I made a mistake earlier, by the way, assuming that thiefs gained +1HP/level - that is in fact mages only. I guess I've made too many Kensai->Mages in my day... So I guess T->F will only end up with a +1/level advantage later on, which isn't a lot considering the initial hit dice and CON bonuses for fighters.
Another argument for the K13->T in favor of the T24->F I suppose! I think I can consider that experiment failed, now...
P.S.: Please don't make me calculate HP values for multiclass...
Just as a note, because HP gained from Con is retroactive, the K>T could end up with even more HP. 18 +1 Tome, +1 Lum's machine is 20, and if you go evil in Hell that gives you another +2, for a total of 22 Con. This give a further +2 HP per level, for an extra 18 HP. If you can somehow buff to 24 Con, then that'd give +27, which gives 180 to 189 total HP.
This is only if you're evil, though, but even so you could gain +9 HP.
That's true, but only for one character; assuming you put the CON bonuses onto a fighter (any fighter, really) you basically retain the bonus "party-wide" regardless of who actually ends up with it. It's something to keep in mind, but for most discussions tomes will have little bearing on decisions.
Note: CHARNAME also gains an HP bonus, afaik (10HP?).
15 HP, I believe. So you could feasible end up with 195-204 HP, if you were evil, took all the Con bonuses for yourself, started with 18 Con, and were a Fighter until at least level 9.
Of course, any +HP items would boost it further. Helm of Balduran, for example, would give you a solid 200-209.
It's convenience, for the sake of discussion. Comparing relative HP values only makes sense with consistent results, otherwise RNG would skew things all over the place. It simply makes the math and tables a lot easier to do and to read.
Some people use maximum HP rolls within their games as well, though, you are right about that. The reasoning is simple: reduction of random factors. Bad luck (especially in streaks) can be quite annoying, and entirely independent from actual player skill.
Personally, I run with maximum HP rolls for all - friend and foe alike. It makes fights meatier and more reliant on strategy.
HP rolls are a part of the game. Using maximum HP rolls should also use maximum rolls for damage; for sure using max HP is a big reason why you feel spells are so ineffective. In your game a level 9 Fighter has at least 9*10 = 90 HP, when the average HP should be 9*5.5 = 49.5 HP. That's a huge imbalance in terms of how the ruleset was designed. Fireball is still rolling 9d6 which is 31.5 average. It'd make a lot of sense for damage rolls to be maxed too if HP rolls are maxed.
Keep in mind that while most trash mobs do have rolled HP, many bosses and special mobs do not. They have fixed values. Enemy HP has little bearing on spell efficacy, and in any case don't tend to vary as greatly as player HP to begin with.
It has a huge effect on enemies who use spells against you, at the least. Suddenly fire ball is doing only 1/3 damage when it should be doing more than 60 %. So, if you want a challenge, don't cheat the rules
Enemies "cheat" all the time. And while an "average" HP reduction would be quite okay, things really start go awry when you have three bad rolls in a row and suddenly end up well below par. Given the already high variance in this game, I personally see no need to add even more.
It's not like random HP change a lot; you still play the same, you just pray to get lucky on level-ups. Yay.
i dont know what are you talking about lich in gate did 160 damage with Abi Dalzim's Horrid Wilting Firkraag doing near 300 dmg with breath /~70 melee backstabs from thiefs around ~70
Even with "only" 9 rolls the HP distribution will look quite Gaussian. Hence, it's extremely unlikely to get well below par HPs over the course of your adventuring career.
Even with "only" 9 rolls the HP distribution will look quite Gaussian. Hence, it's extremely unlikely to get well below par HPs over the course of your adventuring career.
maybe hp pool is a little bigger than normal but playing on scsii tactics insane is not exactly like walk in a park
and doing that you could also lower your stats to minimum and pick some weird classes without thief and mage
Anyway the point I'm trying to make is using max HP isn't unlike making enemies deal less damage. Your characters have more HP than they "should" but the damage isn't upscaled accordingly.
Comments
you are defending so much improved haste+critical hit HLA but only inquisitor and swash will use fighter HLAs
so the best team would be
fighter/cleric
fighter/thief
inquisitor
fighter/ilusionist times many for the rest so all of them could use critical HLA
My main argument involving CS is that it should be picked over GWW; it's part of why GWW is so overrated. It's not objectively a must-have.
that is true but staff of ram is still the second best weapon if considered damage alone
and impaler 3rd damage
2handed weapons are great for GWW
im curious what changed crom in modded verions of BG
As for SoR (and Impaler), it's certainly a good weapon; it does however more or less REQUIRE use of GWW to get full value out of it. And GWW does not last very long, while several fights do. 2h damage quickly tapers off outside of GWW due to lack of APR. In addition, many 1h weapons also confer other benefits (like the 22 STR from Angurvadal).
All in all, the damage difference isn't THAT substantial. What makes SoR's damage shoots through the roof is anything involving multipliers, i.e. backstab. There is no weapon that can match SoR in that regard (discounting Staff of Striking), not even close. On plain attack damage, it's still good - just not as bonkers as you'd think.
Thanks for responding. Below is a comparison of some F/T combinations.
All combinations are compared at the XP of a Swashbuckler 24 (3,080,000 XP) -> Fighter 25 (4,250,000 XP) [Total 7,330,000 XP]. All HP increases at level up are maxxed (for consistency in comparison). All Stats maximized for the given race for the purpose of comparison.
Fighter 22 - Thief 26 multi [CON = 19 / Half-Orc or Dwarf]
HP = 157
HLA = 19 (UAI + All the rest Fighter HLAs if you like)
XP at which the Scarlet Ninja-to can be used by way of UAI = 3,000,000
XP needed to regain initial class abilities = N/A
*Proficiency Points = 11
*Natural AC = 6
*THAC0 = -3
Kensai 13 -> Thief 37 ... [CON = 18 / Human]
HP = 196
HLA = 14 [Thief only]
XP at which the Scarlet Ninja-to can be used by way of UAI = 4,330,000
XP needed to regain initial class abilities = 880,000
*Kai = 4 uses
*Proficiency Points = 20
*Natural AC = 4
*Kensai: THAC0 = -5 / +4 to hit / +4 to damage
Kensai 21 ->Thief 28 ... [CON = 18 / Human]
HP = 186
HLA = Fighter 2 / Thief 5
XP at which the Scarlet Ninja-to can be used by way of UAI = 6,330,000
XP needed to regain initial class abilities = 2,640,000
*Kai = 6 uses
*Proficiency Points = 20
*Natural AC = 4
*Kensai: THAC0 = -10 / +7 to hit / +7 to damage
**In testing, I was unable to dual in game from Swashbuckler to Fighter, but was able to dual a Thief to a Fighter. Have no idea why. So the numbers may only apply to the latter, though I suspect that they are similar. Maybe Lord_Tansheron can provide the necessary corrections here.
@Eudaemonium - That's the reason (Using Rogue Re-balancing). Thanks for pointing that out.
Thief 24 -> Fighter 25 ... [CON = 18 / Human]
HP = 117
HLA = 7 [1 Thief + 6 Fighter]
XP at which the Scarlet Ninja-to can be used by way of UAI = 3,080,000* [Corrected]
@Lord_Tansheron - Thanks for the correction.
XP needed to regain initial class abilities = 4,250,000
*Proficiency Points = 16
*Natural AC = 1 (Swashbuckler Lvl 24) / 6 (Thief)
*Swashbuckler +1 to Hit & Damage per 5 levels (Does this start at Lvl 1 or Lvl 5?)
*THAC0 = -3
Hope this data will help to choose an F/T.
-------------------
I agree that UAI is not all that great, but as long as you are going to the trouble to get it, using it with a Kensai has considerable advantages, weapon expertise gauntlets, armor that protects from magic or elemental damage, Cloak of Montolio, etc.
Considering the XP gains and increased safety for the party of de-trapping and lockpicking being available all through the game, I'm leaning toward the multi.
If you use the Level 1 NPC mod, Korgan would make a very good Fighter-Thief or Kensai-Thief multi.
Keep in mind, though, that these XP values only represent the regain-point for a hypothetical T24->F25 - the game does continue on after that point. In fact, that's the important thing about it, as the entire build was done with ToB-heavy endgame in mind. Naturally it will fall behind in numbers and efficiency at earlier stages of the game (such as the 7.3M xp breakpoint in this example).
HP, for example, is skewed in favor of F->T duals at that point, because of the initial CON bonus for single-digit levels. However, T->F duals will eventually catch up in HP values, because F levels >10 award 3HP/level, while T levels only award 1HP/level.
I usually end my game somewhere in the neighborhood of 9-10M xp per character (with a full party), i.e. roughly 2M more than your example. At 250k/level for fighters and 220k/level for thieves, that translates to about 8/9 more levels respectively for a dual, and 4/5 respectively for a multi.
Your table did provide some very interesting insights, though.
For one, it showed that the dmg/hit bonuses of the Swashbuckler and Kensai (at the levels in question) were about even. This has an important ramification, because the flat bonuses being equal, Kensai wins because of Kai (and speed factor, though that's not overly relevant).
However, there's also the issue of HLAs. These vary wildly in their efficacy; my game, for example, has a lot of backstab/trap immune mobs and bosses. This makes Thief HLAs almost useless. If your game does not have those restrictions, though, going in with a 10APR Assassination, or popping 5 Spike Traps is *utterly* devastating.
HLAs were in fact what motivated my Sw24->F experiment in the first place, essentially resulting in a sort-of F/T multi with fighter HLAs only + UAI.
Speaking of UAI: there is one important thing you did not consider for your table, likely because you did not know. If you start as a thief and get UAI, then dual into another class, YOU KEEP UAI EVEN WHILE THE THIEF IS INACTIVE. I believe this is due to the way UAI is coded in the game, as a one-time permanent modification of the character, not the class. This is a very important factor to consider because UAI for use of SNT was the whole reason I started this experiment in the first place.
What that means is that a F/T multi and a T24->F will be able to use SNT at exactly the same point, i.e. 3080000xp. This makes the regaining of F levels far less gimped, as you can use a powerful weapon (and have more HP than your should at that low level).
However, the difference between 3080000xp and 4330000xp, when a K13->T would gain access to SNT, is still relatively small. That in turn means that even SNT is not a heavy argument for either choice.
So, once again, we return to special abilities. These seem to be what makes or breaks the choice. Essentially, these are your options:
F/T multi: F and T HLAs
K13->T: T HLAs and Kai
T24->F: F HLAs
A difficult decision. Without access to Timestop (Time Trap is not nearly as effective), the value of the Critical Strike HLA increases. Kai however is a substantial damage increase against any type of enemy. The various utility HLAs (Hardiness, Avoid Death, etc.) are useful, but not gamebreaking.
I think that given the power of Kai at endgame, and the rampant crit-immunities, you have convinced me that K13->T may in fact be the better choice after all. Though to be fair, the difference remains quite slim, and potentially not having an early game thief can be annoying.
Thanks for the data, it was in fact quite helpful and enlightening! If anyone else has something to add, please chime in - these sorts of discussions are what makes these forums great!
this 21 level kensai with +7 damage WOW
weird thing 21 level kensai thief has lower hp than 13level kensai? how?
13 fighter with 18 CON:
90 (fighter base hit dice, 1d10 per level 1-9; assuming max roll)
+12 (+3 per level after 9 = 3*4)
+36 (+4 per level 1-9 for CON 18)
_____
= 138
then dual to thief and reach lvl37:
+24 (1 per level, no gain for 1-13 due to dual = 1*24)
TOTAL HP for Kensai 13->Thief 37: 162
========
========
Now the same for a 24 thief with 16+ CON:
60 (thief base hit dice, 1d6 per level 1-10; assuming max roll)
+28 (+2 per level after 10 = 2*14)
+18 (+2 per level 1-9 for CON 16+)
_____
= 106
then dual to fighter and reach lvl25:
+3 (yay!)
TOTAL HP for Thief 24->Fighter 25: 109
Still a substantial difference, though not QUITE as much. I made a mistake earlier, by the way, assuming that thiefs gained +1HP/level - that is in fact mages only. I guess I've made too many Kensai->Mages in my day... So I guess T->F will only end up with a +1/level advantage later on, which isn't a lot considering the initial hit dice and CON bonuses for fighters.
Another argument for the K13->T in favor of the T24->F I suppose! I think I can consider that experiment failed, now...
P.S.: Please don't make me calculate HP values for multiclass...
This is only if you're evil, though, but even so you could gain +9 HP.
Note: CHARNAME also gains an HP bonus, afaik (10HP?).
Of course, any +HP items would boost it further. Helm of Balduran, for example, would give you a solid 200-209.
Some people use maximum HP rolls within their games as well, though, you are right about that. The reasoning is simple: reduction of random factors. Bad luck (especially in streaks) can be quite annoying, and entirely independent from actual player skill.
Personally, I run with maximum HP rolls for all - friend and foe alike. It makes fights meatier and more reliant on strategy.
It's not like random HP change a lot; you still play the same, you just pray to get lucky on level-ups. Yay.
lich in gate did 160 damage with Abi Dalzim's Horrid Wilting
Firkraag doing near 300 dmg with breath /~70 melee
backstabs from thiefs around ~70
is that too low?
and doing that you could also lower your stats to minimum and pick some weird classes without thief and mage
that would be a challenge!
but i still don't know why? moded contet for power so why lower our characters hp?
i played without max hp but they were just dying because i was an archer (fighter elf max bows)