I changed up the powergaming party build equation a bit with the release of my Thieving Skills for Bards mod (requires EEex). This now allows for Bards and all Bard Kits (even those added by mods) to be able to Pick Locks, Detect/Disarm Traps, and Pick Pockets. No longer do you need to shoehorn a Thief into a party to gain access to quality of life skills like pick locks and disarm traps, and now players have an alternative which can lead to more varied party options.
You can download the latest version of the mod here.
Current party part way through Sod (first playthrough of the Beamdog expansion). Used a little tweaking in Shadowkeeper, without (in my opinion) excessive cheese, just enough to maintain my interest.
Fighter / Conjurer (Elf)
(SK'd the kit)
Provided excellent damage support and only source of arcane magic throughout BG1. Spec'd in Long Sword and Longbow, eventually in BG2 to off-hand Long Sword of Action from the Trials of the Luremaster mod. Main hand various long swords, eventually mainly Foebane. End game: Ravager +6
Fighter (7) -> Holy Strategist of the Red Knight
(SK'd the kit before dualling, from Divine Remix mod)
Early game damage, now growing into potent cleric, with the use of later buffs will maintain excellent physical damage output.
GM in Flail/Morningstar, picks up +1 APR at HS level 13, eventually dual wields Flail of Ages and Defender of Easthaven. End game: Staff of the Ram +6
Fighter (7) -> Swashbuckler
(SK'd the kit before dualling, version from Rogue Rebalancing)
All game damage, pump Pick Locks / Find Traps for utility and Detect Illusion / Set Traps for combat. RR Swashie uses Fighter THAC0 progression, so maintains excellent hitting capabilities throughout. GM in Dagger and Katana, BG1 Dagger of Venom, eventually Celestial Fury + Ninjato of the Scarlet Brotherhood, and Fire Tooth throwing dagger. End game: Carsomyr +6
Kensai (9) -> Mage
Glass cannon, mid and late game powerhouse. GM in Warhammer and Axe, eventually main hand Crom Faeyr or Axe of the Minotaur Lord (TotLM), off-hand Kundane.
Barbarian / Druid (Half-Orc)
(SK'd the kit)
HP/resistance tank, rage mind immunities, IWD Druid spells, shapeshift damage immunities. Early game lock basher. Spec'd in Scimitar, Dart, Club. BG1 Twinkle, eventually Water's Razor (Item Upgrade) with Belm off-hand. End game: Ixil's Spike +6
Archer (13) -> Mage
(@semiticgoddess's kit mod)
Early game damage lord. GM in Short Bow and Crossbow. Tuigan, Ebullience (TotLM), Gesen, Firetooth.
The lack of an early game thief was mitigated by following an "above ground" path with minimal traps until the dual began. Arcane was covered by the Elf, but the powerhouse of Fighters shredded most SCS enemies on Insane Difficulty with few issues. The two (7) duals fully reactivated some way through Balduran's Isle and Durlag's Tower, immediately showing their awesome power. Kensai will reactivate in time for the final battle of SoD. Honestly I've not had this much fun in the game in a long time. I highly recommend Shadowkeeper for these kinds of minimal but engaging modifications!
I'm getting ready for another EET playthrough with a slew of mods to include: SCS and Ascension on Insane Difficulty; however, I am having a difficult time figuring out what to do for a party. Advice is welcome.
Damage
Kensai(9 or 13) -> Mage w/ Halberd
Kensai or Berserker (9) -> Mage w/ Axes and Belm offhand
Archer w/ Firetooth or Dwarven Berserker w/ Axes
Divine - I'm debating between taking one of the below options
Thief - I'm debating between taking one of the below options
Rogue Archer (8 or 10) -> Mage w/ shortbow
Blade w/ Long sword and SnT offhand
Monk w/ punches
Other
Inquisitor w/ either Carsomyr or FoA and DoE
Something I am missing?
I think of the list above, the Archer can be on the chopping block to bring along either Korgan or maybe even ToB NPC. Is there something else recommended?
Depending on the specifics of the setup (mods, party, etc.) it might be worth mathing out if a Skald is a damage gain over an actual damage dealer. Given the massive +4 thac0/damage on 5 other people, that can easily overtake the output of a single character - but it scales down with casters and slow hitters, so it varies with setup.
I personally wouldn't dual at 13 unless running small parties (4 or less people). It's just not worth it imo, but I guess there's personal preference to it. Certainly you seem to agree that IF you ever do it, it's on a character that can't dual-wield APR offhands, but even there I'm not convinced.
Cleric/Ranger I'm not a fan of unless you have the "old" setting of fully scaling druid spells; Berserker->Cleric seems vastly superior to me without the high-level druid spells.
Inquisitor is, of course, borderline cheese with full-power dispel and no LoB mode level bonuses, as it basically instant-kills enemy mages.
Rest seems solid, though I can't speak to the modded kits I'm not familiar with. Outside of LoB mode, the best strategy is probably one where you play very offensively - without enemy HP bonuses, a damage-optimized party can kill things EXTREMELY quickly, and dead things don't fight back
Skald, and I do have Rogue Rebalancing installed, definitely would be an overall damage increase over my Rogue Archer (8) -> Mage. +5 to hit and damage is hard to pass up, and with the ability to manage locks and traps makes it a no brainer and I'm wondering why I didn't originally do this...
I did some comparisons after posting and saw that kensai(9)->Mage would manage proficiencies better than a 13 dual and gets more HLAs which is helpful. Modded, 2h weapons come out as equally competitive as dual wielding with offhand apr weapons, hence halberds are being selected.
I always play with the "old" scaling for cleric/ranger to gain druid spells, and I find ranger(7)->cleric dual performs better in terms of thac0 and more spells than the multi (thanks to Tweaks Anthology un-nerfed thac0 tables).
I am fully of the mindset that dead enemies deal no damage
Effectiveness of Skald increases as the game difficulty increases. Since we are talking about powergaming party it's safe to assume that is the case. The highest difficulty right now that I see more or less a common standard is LoB SCS + Ascension. Other mods are per user preferences.
In LOB enemies get -11 AC bonus besides many other bonuses, this means that endgame bosses have between -20 and -25 unbuffed AC. Most physical damage dealers outside of kits like Kensai/Archer will end up around -10/-15 unbuffed Thac0, this gives around 25-50% miss chance on average. In those cases extra -4 Thac0 bonus from Skald/Epic Bard song essentially means an extra 20% hit chance, besides +4 damage per hit also accounts for rougly 10-25% more damage depending on build.
If we assume those numbers are roughly correct, then if you would have physical party member hitting for 25 damage on average with -15 Thac0 at 5 APR on boss who has -20 AC then as an example you can either have 4 physical members or 3 physical + skald
If you have 4 party members
4 party members * 25 avg damage * 5 APR * 0.75 (-20 AC -15 Thac0 = 25% miss chance) = 375 damage per round
If you have 3 party members + Skald that means
3 party members * 29 avg damage (+4dmg from aura) * 5 APR * 0.95 (-20 AC -19 Thac0 = 5% miss chance) = 413.25 damage per round
Of' course my numbers are purely conceptual and there are many, many variables, which should be taken into account. But in essence my rule of thumb is that as long as you have at least 3 physical damage dealers then the scald is worth it.
Let's not forget that aura also works on summons, so improve hasted Planetar at 7APR gladly will take extra hit damage and thac0.
Besides the obvious damage benefits you also get -4AC meaning your party members get to be more offensive for longer. Fighter/Mages and Druids get to keep Stoneskins/Ironskins/Images longer, melee bruisers get to last longer with hardiness before needing to use round to chug a potion, etc. Which again non-directly impacts offensive capabilities.
Additionally immunity to Stun/Fear/Confusion is huge, those peksy demons like to throw around Power Word Stuns or other effects which cause loss of character control. 5% magic resist is just a nice little bonus here. Again this works on summons which is great. Some people don't use summons so this is debatable benefit, yet from pure powergaming aspect, it's there.
Lastly, let's not forget that Skald has a new item from SOD called Bard's hat (alternatively can use vahlior helmet with UAI) which makes songs linger for 3 rounds, this effectively means your bard could cast spells/fight for every 2 out of 3 rounds. A level 40 caster throwing remove magic works great, even on LOB boosted level enemies. Then there are HLA traps, but I disregarded them because 4th party member would also get HLAs to counter the pure benefit.
Imo, 4-th physical damage dealer is worth it over skald only if he brings great benefits besides his damage, but even then so does skald. This is why in my book, 3 or more physical members makes skald well worth it, but as everyone knows it's always debatable based on mods/difficulty/party comp/etc.
My playing style is a bit different from previous posters: I Iike weapons and don’t play spellcasters well. 😊 Here’s my idea:
Half-orc fighter-thief using two-handed weapons
5 elf fighter-mages dual-wielding
By level 15 or so they will be specialized in all weapons and have tons of hit points after casting Transformation, making them unstoppable in melee! 😎
Comments
I changed up the powergaming party build equation a bit with the release of my Thieving Skills for Bards mod (requires EEex). This now allows for Bards and all Bard Kits (even those added by mods) to be able to Pick Locks, Detect/Disarm Traps, and Pick Pockets. No longer do you need to shoehorn a Thief into a party to gain access to quality of life skills like pick locks and disarm traps, and now players have an alternative which can lead to more varied party options.
You can download the latest version of the mod here.
You can view the readme for the mod here.
Fighter / Conjurer (Elf)
(SK'd the kit)
Provided excellent damage support and only source of arcane magic throughout BG1. Spec'd in Long Sword and Longbow, eventually in BG2 to off-hand Long Sword of Action from the Trials of the Luremaster mod. Main hand various long swords, eventually mainly Foebane. End game: Ravager +6
Fighter (7) -> Holy Strategist of the Red Knight
(SK'd the kit before dualling, from Divine Remix mod)
Early game damage, now growing into potent cleric, with the use of later buffs will maintain excellent physical damage output.
GM in Flail/Morningstar, picks up +1 APR at HS level 13, eventually dual wields Flail of Ages and Defender of Easthaven. End game: Staff of the Ram +6
Fighter (7) -> Swashbuckler
(SK'd the kit before dualling, version from Rogue Rebalancing)
All game damage, pump Pick Locks / Find Traps for utility and Detect Illusion / Set Traps for combat. RR Swashie uses Fighter THAC0 progression, so maintains excellent hitting capabilities throughout. GM in Dagger and Katana, BG1 Dagger of Venom, eventually Celestial Fury + Ninjato of the Scarlet Brotherhood, and Fire Tooth throwing dagger. End game: Carsomyr +6
Kensai (9) -> Mage
Glass cannon, mid and late game powerhouse. GM in Warhammer and Axe, eventually main hand Crom Faeyr or Axe of the Minotaur Lord (TotLM), off-hand Kundane.
Barbarian / Druid (Half-Orc)
(SK'd the kit)
HP/resistance tank, rage mind immunities, IWD Druid spells, shapeshift damage immunities. Early game lock basher. Spec'd in Scimitar, Dart, Club. BG1 Twinkle, eventually Water's Razor (Item Upgrade) with Belm off-hand. End game: Ixil's Spike +6
Archer (13) -> Mage
(@semiticgoddess's kit mod)
Early game damage lord. GM in Short Bow and Crossbow. Tuigan, Ebullience (TotLM), Gesen, Firetooth.
The lack of an early game thief was mitigated by following an "above ground" path with minimal traps until the dual began. Arcane was covered by the Elf, but the powerhouse of Fighters shredded most SCS enemies on Insane Difficulty with few issues. The two (7) duals fully reactivated some way through Balduran's Isle and Durlag's Tower, immediately showing their awesome power. Kensai will reactivate in time for the final battle of SoD. Honestly I've not had this much fun in the game in a long time.
Damage
Divine - I'm debating between taking one of the below options
Thief - I'm debating between taking one of the below options
Other
I think of the list above, the Archer can be on the chopping block to bring along either Korgan or maybe even ToB NPC. Is there something else recommended?
I personally wouldn't dual at 13 unless running small parties (4 or less people). It's just not worth it imo, but I guess there's personal preference to it. Certainly you seem to agree that IF you ever do it, it's on a character that can't dual-wield APR offhands, but even there I'm not convinced.
Cleric/Ranger I'm not a fan of unless you have the "old" setting of fully scaling druid spells; Berserker->Cleric seems vastly superior to me without the high-level druid spells.
Inquisitor is, of course, borderline cheese with full-power dispel and no LoB mode level bonuses, as it basically instant-kills enemy mages.
Rest seems solid, though I can't speak to the modded kits I'm not familiar with. Outside of LoB mode, the best strategy is probably one where you play very offensively - without enemy HP bonuses, a damage-optimized party can kill things EXTREMELY quickly, and dead things don't fight back
I did some comparisons after posting and saw that kensai(9)->Mage would manage proficiencies better than a 13 dual and gets more HLAs which is helpful. Modded, 2h weapons come out as equally competitive as dual wielding with offhand apr weapons, hence halberds are being selected.
I always play with the "old" scaling for cleric/ranger to gain druid spells, and I find ranger(7)->cleric dual performs better in terms of thac0 and more spells than the multi (thanks to Tweaks Anthology un-nerfed thac0 tables).
I am fully of the mindset that dead enemies deal no damage
In LOB enemies get -11 AC bonus besides many other bonuses, this means that endgame bosses have between -20 and -25 unbuffed AC. Most physical damage dealers outside of kits like Kensai/Archer will end up around -10/-15 unbuffed Thac0, this gives around 25-50% miss chance on average. In those cases extra -4 Thac0 bonus from Skald/Epic Bard song essentially means an extra 20% hit chance, besides +4 damage per hit also accounts for rougly 10-25% more damage depending on build.
If we assume those numbers are roughly correct, then if you would have physical party member hitting for 25 damage on average with -15 Thac0 at 5 APR on boss who has -20 AC then as an example you can either have 4 physical members or 3 physical + skald
If you have 4 party members
4 party members * 25 avg damage * 5 APR * 0.75 (-20 AC -15 Thac0 = 25% miss chance) = 375 damage per round
If you have 3 party members + Skald that means
3 party members * 29 avg damage (+4dmg from aura) * 5 APR * 0.95 (-20 AC -19 Thac0 = 5% miss chance) = 413.25 damage per round
Of' course my numbers are purely conceptual and there are many, many variables, which should be taken into account. But in essence my rule of thumb is that as long as you have at least 3 physical damage dealers then the scald is worth it.
Let's not forget that aura also works on summons, so improve hasted Planetar at 7APR gladly will take extra hit damage and thac0.
Besides the obvious damage benefits you also get -4AC meaning your party members get to be more offensive for longer. Fighter/Mages and Druids get to keep Stoneskins/Ironskins/Images longer, melee bruisers get to last longer with hardiness before needing to use round to chug a potion, etc. Which again non-directly impacts offensive capabilities.
Additionally immunity to Stun/Fear/Confusion is huge, those peksy demons like to throw around Power Word Stuns or other effects which cause loss of character control. 5% magic resist is just a nice little bonus here. Again this works on summons which is great. Some people don't use summons so this is debatable benefit, yet from pure powergaming aspect, it's there.
Lastly, let's not forget that Skald has a new item from SOD called Bard's hat (alternatively can use vahlior helmet with UAI) which makes songs linger for 3 rounds, this effectively means your bard could cast spells/fight for every 2 out of 3 rounds. A level 40 caster throwing remove magic works great, even on LOB boosted level enemies. Then there are HLA traps, but I disregarded them because 4th party member would also get HLAs to counter the pure benefit.
Imo, 4-th physical damage dealer is worth it over skald only if he brings great benefits besides his damage, but even then so does skald. This is why in my book, 3 or more physical members makes skald well worth it, but as everyone knows it's always debatable based on mods/difficulty/party comp/etc.
Half-orc fighter-thief using two-handed weapons
5 elf fighter-mages dual-wielding
By level 15 or so they will be specialized in all weapons and have tons of hit points after casting Transformation, making them unstoppable in melee! 😎