No they're not. Zur has already told you. Both are checked to hide but only Move Silently is checked to remain hidden. Therefore from a pure mechanics point of view, you should put nothing in Hide in Shadows and everything in Move Silently.
Hey there, I'm new to the forums and wanted to say hi! I've enjoyed reading this thread
I've been playing BG and BG2 since the games released, BG2 being my all-time favorite video game. However, I had never done a "powergaming" runthrough (I think I've only ever used 1 user-generated character, always take the in-game NPCs).
I had also never used a mod like SCS or played on anything above normal difficulty, so I decided I would start a new journey at candlekeep with SCS + Insane difficulty, create my own party, and see how it went. I just beat BG1EE and am right at the beginning of BG2EE (just finished irenicus' dungeon, at copper coronet now). BG2EE using SCS+Insane too of course.
Here's my party:
Inquisitor - using 1h Axe + Shield for early game (because of the several easy to get +3 axes early on), Carsomyr later Kensai (will dual to mage at 9) - will use Flail of Ages / (belm or kundane) Kensai (will dual to mage at 9) - will use Crom Faeyr / (belm or kundane) Kensai (will dual to thief at either 9 or 13 - which one?) - will use Ang/SNT most likely Archer - xbows and shortbows
I built the party based primarily on what I've read throughout this thread. BG1 was surprisingly easy even with SCS+Insane using this party. Traps sucked (had to muscle through them, sometimes using a resist potion), and I had to play clever for a lot of the fights. Bandit camp was probably the most difficult fight at the time I encountered it, due to the sheer number of enemies that charge you (using SCS). I had to take my Inquisitor, run him around the map a little so that all the enemies would sort of group up, and then I lured them back to my other group members who were waiting with several explosive potions. Once most of the bandits were dead from those, finishing the remaining few tough enemies (Taughoz or w/e was the toughest) wasn't so bad.
Werewolf island was fairly difficult too. I DID skip lower Durlag's tower because I've simply done it so many times and didn't want to engage in the frustration without having a thief to disarm all of the traps. It means that I missed out on the Aec'letec fight which probably would have been the best fight in all of BG1... but I simply did not want to do Durlags, I don't enjoy the dungeon. Did everything else.
Hardest Fights for my party in BG1 (at the time they were encountered): 1. Bandit Camp 2. 4 Mercs right outside Cloakwood Mine (ones w/ boots of speed) - I did this by using invis pots on all 4 melee characters, sneaking up to the mages, and killing them both first round w/ Kensai's having Kai activated 3. Top level of the Ship on Werewolf island - I think I only had 2 weapons that could hit, both being bastard swords (I had to run over and grab Balduran's sword to help), and nobody had any proficiency points in them, so it was rough killing Karoug.
Surprisingly easy fights that I thought would be terrible: 1. Drizzt - wow? I tried an attempt w/o using any buff potions just to see what I was dealing with, b/c I'm used to Drizzt hitting extremely hard and fast, but he died no problem. My inquisitor (tanking) was at half health or so when he died, having only used 1 health pot. 2. Davaeorn - This one was actually only easy b/c of the strat I used - I had my inquisitor dispell Dav's initiald defenses from afar, then inquisitor and 1 kensai sneak up w/ invis pots and attack Dav before his contingency defenses (from SCS) popped up - then my inquisitor uses another dispell right before Dav teleports, so he loses all defenses - he teleports to my other 3 group members (2 kensai and 1 archer) who rip him apart in 1 round. 2 battle horrors cleaned up easily! 3. Sarevok - well, I didn't think this one would be TOO terrible, but it was easier than I thought. I dispelled from afar, launched 5 fireballs (from explosive pots) which killed Semaj, ran inquisitor in to tank sarevok while others killed off Angelo + Tazok + the other guy that SCS adds. My first attempt I wanted to try w/o dispell but Sarevok just murdered me with haste on.. after dispelling haste, he wasn't bad.
Just wanted to share some of my journey so far! Looking forward to BG2 sooooo much! Any tips for my party, tips on how to metagame the XP-gain when I dual-class the kensais, etc?
Any tips for my party, tips on how to metagame the XP-gain when I dual-class the kensais, etc?
I wouldn't recommend L13 duals in a non-solo game (even there it's questionable). L9 duals should be easy to do, if you really want to metagame go for a) massive scroll scribing, and b) individual XP quest rewards (i.e. do the quest but don't turn it in until you've dualed). You can shave good time off the dual by doing that, but honestly even with SCS etc. it shouldn't be hard to regain levels quickly.
Your setup looks fine, it's got all the right cheese in all the right places. Very close to what I often run with (or used to run, when I still went with Inq). Weapon selection makes sense, I like having Axe on my Paladin also, since it's not dead later on thanks to Azuredge.
If you're using mods (namely, Tactics and SCS) and aren't shy about exploits:
Archer dualed to thief at level 13
Tried Archer->Mage once just for kicks, was quite the thing. I might experiment more with "illegal" combinations in the future, to try and find something interesting.
I'm not sure what to do proficiency-wise atm actually.
I wish I had planned a little better ahead to use celestial fury. Unfortunately I'm just hitting level 9 now and have 0 points in Katanas for anyone.
Wondering if I should take my kensai/thief to 5 stars in long swords, or leave at 4 for now and either (1) start putting some in sci/wak/nin for the SNT, or (2) start putting some in katana for celestial fury.
I guess there's not much reason to put points into the offhand-type; they're really just useful for the extra APR.
That said, I maybe wish I had kept long sword at 3*. 3 is when you get the +2 bonus to THAC0, which is really nice IMO. Did I make a mistake by going to 4 instead of investing into Katana?
Edit: I've also not really done a lot of dual-classing before. Is this basically the last set of proficiency points I'll ever get on my kensai/mages? After I switch to mage, will I ever get more points?
@Valor You will continue to gain pips as a mage, but their progression is very slow (1 per 6 levels IIRC). If you want to use CF (for the stun), the non-proficiency penalty for fighter classes isn't massive, and is more than offset by your kensai bonuses.
CF is a problem child. It's amazing at early game, but the further on you go the less impressive it becomes, and at endgame it just doesn't do enough damage (plus the really tough bosses are immune to stuns anyway). This is only compounded by the fact that there really aren't any other good Katanas to be found...
Personally, I've mostly moved over to skipping it, or using it on someone with prof pips to spare (e.g. Paladin). For me, stuns are less relevant than damage in many cases, and so I just go for a kill-them-before-they-do-anything approach. HOWEVER, given the new nightmare mode (which I still haven't gotten to try...) things may change. With more HP on enemies, control becomes more important - while of course at the same time, more damage *also* becomes more important. A tricky situation, and one I haven't yet had a chance to evaluate and test.
In general though, I think I would not want to sacrifice getting grand mastery asap, and I plan around that. If there's a spot or two where an off-weapon would be better at the time, well, that's just how the weapon proficiency system works. Luckily it's not a HUGE deal, and CF is probably the biggest issue in that respect.
I'm actually glad you said that because last night I decided to put my 7th point on my paladin into katana, since I already had 2h sword + 2h style + axe. I debated sword+shield style but decided that with fortress shield, extra missile defense is likely moot (not a ton of incredibly tough archers in bg2 anyway from what I recall).
I also put a point into katana for my kensai/thief (i.e. now that I'm in the thief levels). That way I guess I can use CF w/ at least 1 proficiency for fights where it would really help.
Will see if I can add more to it later, maybe I can. Already got 5* in long swords for that character.
@Lord_Tansheron: Extra clerics mean the whole party can have Death Ward and Chaotic Commands active at all times. And by splitting the cleric levels between two characters, you don't end up with the sluggish cleric syndrome where a cleric offers nice buffs, but cannot help much in the middle of combat, unlike a fighter/cleric or cleric/mage, as it lacks APR and strong offensive options.
I think it's most effective to have two characters as clerics, but not single-classed. It is the mid-level cleric spells, not the high-level cleric spells, that are so helpful, and the easiest way to get many castings of DW and CC is to spread cleric levels throughout the party.
Thats because 1 cleric casting healing mid combat may be interrupted and the second one increases the chance you have the healing you need at the right time.
I actually think even 3 clerics may be a good idea. But for that you have to drop paladin(bye bye carsomyr and free true seeing/dispel) or a sorc(this one is a good mage, you need mages in SCS to fight other mages).
@Max_Damage: I think you're right about having multiple clerics, for the reasons I mentioned above. But you are vastly, vastly overestimating the utility of healing in-combat. If somebody needs healing in-combat, the best options, almost invariably, are:
1: Rod of Resurrection, for full HP, with a short delay and no chance of failure 2: Potions, for very quick healing 3: Greater Restoration, for full HP, with a casting time of 3 4: Pulling the character out of the fray to give them some breathing room, so they have time for further healing
The only healing spells that heal more than Potions of Extra Healing (the most common potion of BG2) are Heal and Greater Restoration. Heal, with a casting time of a full round, is usually not worth it, considering its touch range, which puts the caster directly into the fray, and therefore in the worst possible position for being disrupted. By the time your cleric gets to the target and finishes casting the spell, the injured party member will have already had enough time to down two Potions of Extra Healing for 54 HP. On top of that, they will also have enough time to run out of the fray entirely, if 54 HP healed and escaping the enemy's range are somehow not enough. And if they CAN'T just run out of the battle, it means they're surrounded, in which case your cleric can't reach them with Heal anyway.
Greater Restoration, meanwhile, is area-effect (despite the description), and with its fast casting time, the chance of being interrupted is usually nil, particularly since you can run away a short distance if you need the breathing room.
You can have an extra cleric in your party to make sure the first one doesn't get disrupted, which will increase the chance of your fighter surviving the battle. Or, you could just have an extra FIGHTER in your party, to absorb enemy damage and replace the first fighter if he or she should fall.
Clerics have excellent buffs, but there's almost no situation in which having a cleric heal a fighter is more effective than having two fighters healing themselves with potions.
@Max_Damage: I think you're right about having multiple clerics, for the reasons I mentioned above. But you are vastly, vastly overestimating the utility of healing in-combat. If somebody needs healing in-combat, the best options, almost invariably, are:
1: Rod of Resurrection, for full HP, with a short delay and no chance of failure 2: Potions, for very quick healing 3: Greater Restoration, for full HP, with a casting time of 3 4: Pulling the character out of the fray to give them some breathing room, so they have time for further healing
The only healing spells that heal more than Potions of Extra Healing (the most common potion of BG2) are Heal and Greater Restoration. Heal, with a casting time of a full round, is usually not worth it, considering its touch range, which puts the caster directly into the fray, and therefore in the worst possible position for being disrupted. By the time your cleric gets to the target and finishes casting the spell, the injured party member will have already had enough time to down two Potions of Extra Healing for 54 HP. On top of that, they will also have enough time to run out of the fray entirely, if 54 HP healed and escaping the enemy's range are somehow not enough. And if they CAN'T just run out of the battle, it means they're surrounded, in which case your cleric can't reach them with Heal anyway.
Greater Restoration, meanwhile, is area-effect (despite the description), and with its fast casting time, the chance of being interrupted is usually nil, particularly since you can run away a short distance if you need the breathing room.
You can have an extra cleric in your party to make sure the first one doesn't get disrupted, which will increase the chance of your fighter surviving the battle. Or, you could just have an extra FIGHTER in your party, to absorb enemy damage and replace the first fighter if he or she should fall.
Clerics have excellent buffs, but there's almost no situation in which having a cleric heal a fighter is more effective than having two fighters healing themselves with potions.
Well im playing with spell revisions v4 mod. This sets cure critical wounds to 4d8+40 at casterlevel 10 ))
so thats 58 health at 10th level.
for comparison, extra healing is 27 health
critical healing is 58 health; casting time 4 serious healing is 3d8+30 or 43 health; casting time 3 moderate is 2d8+20 or 29 health; casting time 2 light is 1d8+10 or around 9; cating time 1
Im also playing with full hit points both party and AI opponents, this makes battles last quite a bit longer and yes i often use up the healing potions with spells. My ~lvl 10-11 party has 120-130 health on melee and 60-70 on mages.
I think you're overvaluing Cleric buffs in BG2, at least the non-Nightmare version (haven't had a chance to test NM mode yet). Combat is over quite quickly in many cases, and even if not, those enemies that actually do cast annoying things are the ones to die first. In powergaming, a certain amount of meta-knowledge is basically assumed, so you can plan ahead. I'm not saying there aren't situations where you'd want DW/CC up on people, but those situations are so rare - and can be dealt with in other ways. I just don't see Clerics being any better than Mages. Mages can also negate a whole lot of nasty things, and often more efficiently AND more effectively.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Clerics are bad per se, I just don't see them being better than alternatives. Obviously there's room for Clerics if you want them (Ber->Cler is a very good combo) but I've mostly found that they are just a worse version of a Mage a lot of the time.
I mostly agree with Lord_Tansheron because we're talking about BG2. I'm a bigger fan of clerics in the IWD games, but in BG1/2 I never found them to be supremely useful.
If we limit the discussion to BG2 (because BG1 is basically just dominated by fighters/archers and has absolutely no need for a cleric or even an arcane spellcaster), I agree with sentiments expressed earlier in the thread that the game revolves around dispelling enemy combat protections (hence why Breach is the god spell of BG2) and then using physical damage dealers to finish off enemies. IMO this concept applies to the vast majority of the "tough" battles in BG2. I don't see clerics very clearly fitting into this role.
Cleric healing is almost completely useless IMO because you don't want to use those spells mid-fight, and there are plenty of potions + resting to take care of out of combat healing. Generally, with proper positioning, you should go through most battles taking very little or 0 damage.
Regarding cleric buffs, I don't find many of them to be critical in BG2, at least based on memory (to be fair it's been a while since I've used one in the game). Unlike IWD where you're facing large numbers of mostly fighter-style enemies, where spells like Prayer really help tilt the scales in favor of your force of fighters vs. the force of enemy fighters, BG2 is more focused on providing either (1) strong mage enemies, or (2) special creatures with special counters, like mind flayers, beholders, etc. Granted, clerics can be decent on type (2) above, but yeah... I just don't really see them as that useful.
@Valor You're not wrong. In fact, you've summed it up pretty nicely.
I completely agree that IWD is a different game altogether in this respect. BG2 is exceptionally arcane-heavy, on both sides, and the divines just fall short. The Spell Revisions mod addresses this to some extent (I can heartily recommend it), but even there it's usually mages just doing everything you need better, and more.
It'll be interesting to see how Nightmare Mode changes things. A lot of the time right now in BG2 I feel like I'm simply brute-forcing things by overloading on offensive power, because I can finish fights quickly enough for utility etc. to never actually matter. If things had significantly more HP (as they do in NM mode), that may very well change.
@Max_Damage: Buffing up the cleric spells, and more importantly, speeding them up, is a big game-changer. I don't often use Spell Revisions, so I was assuming we were using vanilla spells. My point about casting speed is also less relevant if you've got a cleric/mage with the Robe of Vecna and/or spell sequencers, in which case the healing spells come in quite quickly.
@Lord_Tansheron: You can't always stop disablers from coming. In fact, I have difficulty imagining how you can end a fight before the disablers come out, when we talk about all the various enemies that use disablers:
Vampires (fear and charm) Dragons (fear) Liches (symbol spells, death spells) Mages (chaos) Mind Flayers (stun) Myconids (confusion) Umber Hulks (confusion) Demons (fear, hold) Beholders (fear, hold, charm, death spells) Sahuagin (stunning bolts) Kuo-toa (stunning bolts)
And there are more than this. Considering many of these spells and effects have a casting time of 1, it's more or less impossible to end the fight before the disablers get off the ground. So no, a battle is not going to end before disablers become a problem. These enemies are pervasive in BG2, and they simply do not go down in the first two rounds or first two seconds that they need to get their disablers off the ground. You say enemies who use disablers tend to go down quickly. Of the 11 broad groups of enemies above, how many of them die before they have time to use their disablers? Not all disablers come from unbuffed mages with 40 HP.
This is why saving throws are considered such a big deal in BG2. All of these can wreck a party's functioning on a failed save. Most deaths in BG2 have more to do with failing a save than anything else.
Chaotic Commands, Remove Fear, and Death Ward can render an entire party immune to these effects, and the spell duration is superb. Mages can't block all of these things, since some of the spells bypass Spell Immunity by virtue of having no school. Moreover, a mage's buffs only apply to him or herself, with the exception of Resist Fear, and they don't last nearly as long.
Add a mage to your group and you have one character with short-duration immunity to some disablers. Add a cleric to your group and you can have three characters with long-duration immunity to ALL disablers. I find mages more powerful than clerics overall, but clerics are much more beneficial to the group.
I remember playing TOB long ago. I remember having ~ 120 hp tanks in the end of the watcher's keep.
Now i have 120-130 hp at ~lvl 10 with maxed HP. Same applies to the opponents. Now i imagine that when i start meeting fiends, they will have all the HP you could possibly imagine. So yeah the fights last quite a bit longer.
That is again spell revisions v4 + scs + g3 tweakpack(the hp changes for both you and the opponent are in this mod). Notice that the first 2 mods alter spell and are compatile with each other.
You can ask to have a closed beta version of spell revisions v4 compatible with BG2 ee at gibberlings 3 forums Its NICE.
Then, take my ranger - > cleric... he s got 4 of those barkskin spells. They give bonus -3 ac no matter what. Even druid spells get better in that mod. Ofc with a chance they get dispelled in battles and enemy mages love dispelling and its a guarantee they do in a usual strong mage battle. You may even want to recast at this point. But otherwise handy to have a couple spells ready. My party doing bridge tanner quest has -11 ac inquisitor with it lol.
Then the greater restoration. It is a single target spell for me.
The mages in SCS cant be taken out instantly Because they buff heavily at start of combat simulating pre combat buffs your party gets. Basically in most cases you have to live through their spells and fight off lesser foes first, like clerics, backstabbers, fighters etc. Having dispel magic, resist fear break enchantment, remove paralysis, heals and restorations on more then 1-2 characters helps do exactly that and the party becomes mutually supportive.
Clerics also get mental domination - this is a rly powerful spell i think it has -2 save and a powterful effect. Cleric/mage gets this spell both on the mage and the cleric. Druids and cleric/ranger get charm and hold person or animal and monster or animal. These characters can also do save or die tactics to an extent.
Harm spell ignores MR in spell rev and does 150dmg (75 if saved). So do other spells like inflict wounds etc.
I ve done kensai mage and sorcerer runs and rly im not into such understanding of powergaming party )))
It's not about stopping them all. It's about the bottom line. If I get hit every now and then, that's totally fine if I'm still more efficient overall. If I take a worse class just to get 100% coverage on every single possible incidence, that's usually not efficient.
In fact, I have difficulty imagining how you can end a fight before the disablers come out, when we talk about all the various enemies that use disablers:
Vampires (fear and charm) Dragons (fear) Liches (symbol spells, death spells) Mages (chaos) Mind Flayers (stun) Myconids (confusion) Umber Hulks (confusion) Demons (fear, hold) Beholders (fear, hold, charm, death spells) Sahuagin (stunning bolts) Kuo-toa (stunning bolts)
It's usually very easy to deal with the examples you mentioned. Fear is the easiest of course, given that mages have Remove Fear available with little else to compete in the spell level slot. Charm and confusion is very often in the form of a directed attack (Vampires, Umberhulks, Myconids, etc.) and so you can easily block it by sending one person ahead to trigger it with an immunity item equipped (Helm of Charm Protection is trivial to get, so is Lilarcor). Hold rarely makes it through saves past the starting levels of BG2, I can live with the odd missed save if luck runs bad. Stunning ammunition just folds against the Reflection Shield, or you can sacrifice someone with good defenses (e.g. SSed mage) by sending them in first to draw fire while the rest of the team mops up (not like Sahuagin or Kuo-Toa are any sort of challenge). Beholders have all sorts of things available - including Anti-Magic Ray, which will strip you of any protection spells. Buffing is nearly useless against them, best solution is massive damage (Archer with high APR is great, later with Critical Strike HLA they can clean out entire hives almost by themselves). Death spells are actually very rare, and practically always let you save - which by itself negates a majority of cases. Also the spells are often very confined, either Wail of the Banshee/Nature's Beauty (close range) or Symbol: Death (small area). With proper positioning you can minimize the effects of these spells tremendously. I suppose the most annoying CC spell to be thrown around is actually Chaos, since it comes with a fairly large area of effect, and also a save penalty. Luckily hardly anyone ever uses it, and if they do they are usually easily interrupted and/or killed (e.g. Yuan-Ti Mage). And of course, as I said before: you don't need 100% coverage. Just enough to remain more efficient than an alternative defensive play style.
NOTE: This is assuming a regular run. Obviously things change in things like No-Reload Challenges, for obvious reasons.
@Lord_Tansheron: I was referring to no-reload runs, but the point still holds for normal runs. It's true you can just reload if you fail a save, but that speaks to the power of reloading; it does not mean save or else spells don't make cleric buffs terribly useful.
The items you mention are hugely important when it comes to solo runs, but they won't cover everybody in a full party. You can't get everybody immune to confusion using items alone. Same holds for stun and hold. You can get everyone immune to charm just using items, but that can displace better gear, and switching back and forth can be a hassle. Besides, not everyone can use the items that grant immunities. And there is precisely ONE item in the game that stops instant death effects, and it only arrives in ToB. You can scour BG2 for immunity-granting items, and keep them on hand whenever you need them, or you could just cast a single spell to grant all those immunities at once.
Even if your party has good saves, Chaotic Commands and Death Ward still improve the party's survivability. No, you don't need 100% coverage, in the same way you don't really need to use Celestial Fury or the Robe of Vecna. But 100% immunity to something is a lot better than 90% immunity to something, and that's precisely what Chaotic Commands gives you.
As far as overall efficiency goes, I think the solution I mentioned earlier is a good fix. Cleric levels don't give you great offensive measures, but you only need a few levels in cleric to get Death Ward and Chaotic Commands. There's also a lot to be said for Armor of Faith. If you want a party that can get through the game as quickly as possible, you might not want a bunch of clerics clogging up your party with their 1 APR and defensive magics. But if you want to minimize reloads and other headaches, having cleric levels in your party is the best way to prevent those things.
Items are a hassle and cost money. Saving throws are unreliable and are pretty poor for certain classes, including mages. And ending a fight early can be very demanding.
Chaotic Commands is a guaranteed fix for almost all disablers, and the disablers it doesn't block can be blocked by other cleric spells: Remove Fear and Free Action. Chaotic Commands even stops Maze.
If you top priority is offensive power, then you don't need clerics. But if you want to avoid having to reload based on an unlucky save, or having your fights delayed by disablers (your offensive power means little when you're disabled), then Chaotic Commands is usually the most convenient option.
@Lord_Tansheron: I was referring to no-reload runs, but the point still holds for normal runs. It's true you can just reload if you fail a save, but that speaks to the power of reloading; it does not mean save or else spells don't make cleric buffs terribly useful.
Sorry if you were talking about something else, since you never mentioned no-reload anywhere I sort of assumed a different default.
While I agree that reloading is sort of cheesy, note that getting hit by a CC spell does NOT simply equal reloading. Nor does a dead character. Or two. The only time you actually HAVE to reload is if CHARNAME dies, and for obvious reasons you won't send him/her into the red zone willy-nilly. I'm perfectly fine just continuing if a CC hits; I don't just go and reload. Having the option does not automatically equal reloading at every juncture. I reserve reloads for when things REALLY go south, the rest is easily recovered from (particularly with two Rods of Resurrection).
The items you mention are hugely important when it comes to solo runs, but they won't cover everybody in a full party. You can't get everybody immune to confusion using items alone.
I am fairly sure I explained why that isn't necessary - you put the item on ONE person, and send them in. The way most enemies are scripted, they'll fire their attack at the first thing they see (Umberhulks, Vampires, Mind Flayers etc. all do this). The rest of the party simply follows behind a few steps, and then moves in once the initial volley has been blocked by the one guy wearing immunity items. By the time they get to casting things again (if they even have that in their script), they'll be dead or nearly dead.
Either way, I can only reiterate that it's NOT about COMPLETE coverage. That is unnecessary and inefficient. You just need ENOUGH coverage to remain ahead of a more conservative route. And it actually doesn't take a lot to reach that breakpoint, considering the strategies I outlined above and the overall incidence of dangerous effects to begin with.
Even if your party has good saves, Chaotic Commands and Death Ward still improve the party's survivability.
Absolutely. So does making everyone super tanky and buffing them with everything you can find. But it's not about absolutes - you don't just get these things for free. You trade off for the defensive power, with offense, with speed, with utility, etc. What matters in the comparison is the bottom line - which approach is more efficient. Safety only matters in respect to the impact it has on efficiency. In a regular run, that impact will be fairly small; in a no-reload run, it is obviously huge (but those are a special case, as are solo play and any number of other arbitrary extra rules).
If you want a party that can get through the game as quickly as possible, you might not want a bunch of clerics clogging up your party with their 1 APR and defensive magics. But if you want to minimize reloads and other headaches, having cleric levels in your party is the best way to prevent those things.
That is completely legitimate. If you accept lower efficiency as a trade-off for convenience or personal preference, that is entirely okay. It's your choice, this is after all a single player game. Just keep in mind that regardless of your own subjective choice, there may be other options that are objectively more efficient in terms of time etc. That's all we're discussing here, basically. Personal choice trumps everything in the end, but people should be presented with all the information before making that choice.
Items are a hassle and cost money. Saving throws are unreliable and are pretty poor for certain classes, including mages. And ending a fight early can be very demanding.
Those concerns seem a bit out of place for powergaming, at least in my opinion. You only need a few select, very specific items; getting them is often extremely easy and/or otherwise rewarding (getting Lilarcor for example is also great XP). Very few of the items I use to deal with things are actually sold - in fact I spend about 90% of my gold on spells and not items most of the time.
If you top priority is offensive power, then you don't need clerics. But if you want to avoid having to reload based on an unlucky save, or having your fights delayed by disablers (your offensive power means little when you're disabled), then Chaotic Commands is usually the most convenient option.
Agreed. Hence my questioning of NM mode, where offensive power probably can't be the silver bullet fix-all. But outside of that, my experience has been that you can plow through pretty much anything with enough of an offense, and just deal with the things they throw in your way. Doesn't always work, but it works often enough. In fact, even when using Clerics the #1 spell I use BY FAR is not Chaotic Commands, or any other defensive buff - it's Draw upon Holy Might. More offensive power, but with a priestly flavor.
@Lord_Tansheron: The difference must lie in our priorities. You want offensive power and to be able to complete an encounter quickly and decisively, which I assume is what you mean by "efficiency." I focus more on defenses, and covering up the little holes and weaknesses in a party. My party in the "Party of Spiders" thread is a good example. It has rather little power, and encounters take time to complete, but there are almost no chinks in its armor. I'm actually quite pleased with how it's been able to bounce back from catastrophic failures of luck.
Our arguments hinge on what we're trying to accomplish: if you want lots of power, clerics are seldom ever the way to go, and if you do have them, the more important spell will be DUHM. If you want safety, then clerics are almost a necessity.
What kind of party do you normally use, if clerics aren't there to provide immunities?
What kind of party do you normally use, if clerics aren't there to provide immunities?
In terms of power, something along the lines of Inquisitor / Archer / Kensai 9 -> Mage / Kensai 9 -> Mage. That's about as close as I've come so far in maximizing power.
That being said, I often play different setups, simply because I feel like it. The overall principles remain the same, but the setups vary. If I do use clerics, they'll be optimized for offense - DuHM, Righteous Magic, the whole shebang. I rarely cast Chaotic Commands even with a cleric, simply because I don't find I need it with the strategies I mentioned. The same goes for many other defensive strategies; I just don't tend to employ them because I find them inefficient. Spending time buffing is time I could spend beating on heads instead - and by the time you've finished casting the last Chaotic Commands, I've already moved on to the next group of enemies.
@Lord_Tansheron: "Considering this thread is about POWERgaming... :P"
By power, I mean offensive power. Again, it's a difference of priorities, whether you want to finish a battle as quickly as possible, or with the minimum possible chance of reloading.
I've read many of these threads over the years while quietly playing my own game. I consider myself a powergamer at heart but I approach it from an analytical perspective rather than wanting to reduce the challenge of the game. I try to find the best way to overcome the diverse challenges of the game in the most efficient possible manner. To this end I've set up some rules for myself.
1. Same party from start to finish and no NPCs
I start a multiplayer session and keep the party the same throughout. I reload if a character gets blown up but reloading is very rare for me as I have the entire game memorized and have no excuse for mistakes.
2. A few convenience tweaks
I stack ammo and gems and other similar conveniences with the use of the tweakpack. I install a total of 16 of the options but my next play through will likely reduce this to 12. After playing through the game a zillion times though some of the inventory stuff gets tedious and doesn't add anything.
3. Nightmare mode - Insane
While nightmare was new to me, it played wonderfully and I really enjoyed the added challenge. I've played with SCS and ascension before and they all have their various good and bad points. For the purposes of this setup though I chose to keep the most simple and repeatable environment. I experienced NO game breaking bugs.
4. Limited Resting
This is a really big point and the one I hope you all read and understand. This is KEY to my max/min setups. Anyone can rest after every fight and blow 30 spells a battle and get through the game. It takes a lot more skill IMO to be very careful about every spell usage and sleep only when you absolutely have to. My last game ended with killing Mellissan on day 42 to give you an idea. This included many mistakes and wasted time with redundant trips. I hope to streamline this down to around 35.
5. Limited Play Time
Again, we can all sit there for a week and leisurely beat the game. I'm not racing really, but I expect to do the entire game in 2-3 days of solid playing. This is an area I've been working on reducing quite a bit as I tend to sit back and theorycraft when i make new discoveries. Often I start over if the discovery is big enough.
-------------------------------------------------- Below I've listed my ideal setup so far. It is an evolving setup that can change as I discover new things. So far however it has been the best performing. Please keep in mind I have played...everything. I can't of course have played all compositions but every possible powergame setup I have tried. This group for me has been the most powerful. --------------------------------------------------
---------------------- 4 PLAYER PARTY ----------------------
Real quick I'll mention that I feel that anything over 4 characters is clumsy. I've solo'd, duo'd and trio'd everything, and I feel that 4 is ideal to meet the challenges in nightmare mode. There is experience to spare, as you'll cap out in the first game, so you can come up with 5 or 6 person comps, but since I run multiclasses preferably for their power curves, I enjoy the faster experience that 4 people has.
Cleric/Ranger - Multiclass
This guy is your NPC and main tank. He goes FOA and Shield and Sling. This character is beautiful for everything it provides and is your mega-tank. I tend to put the very best AC items on him and get him to around -21 AC. This will tank anything for a long time with the exception of some of the ridiculous enemies in TOB. But even THEN - with 10 ironskins to blow through and hardiness+defender+armor of faith, you can handle almost any tanking situation. I realize cleric/rangers aren't a "new" thing, but emphasizing this character as your NPC main stat hog, might surprise you. With limited rests this guy is also a great asset as you get a bajillion spells. I load him up with a bunch of whirlwinds too for when I need focused damage on particularly deadly opponents.
Fighter/Mage/Thief - Multiclass
This guy takes care of all of your traps, he wields carsomyr and usually undead destroying weapons on swaps. Hes a jack of all trades. Late game hes improved hasted machine with the ravager or carsomyr and uses the firetooth+3 forever after we get it from the drow. I load him up with str items, and try to get his AC as high as possible without messing with this casting ability. This guy very easily could be the main character. So much utility in one class is of huge benefit
Archer - Single Class
I know I know, I've read everything you guys have had to say about this class, but I simply don't agree with the idea that this class loses power. The insane thaco makes him your dragon slayer. His raw damage per round exceeds anything I've found, especially when you aren't using haste in the early game. Late game at a solid 5 or 4.5 attacks per round though hes amazing for imp haste. A well positioned archer going from tuigan to gesen simply doesn't stop damaging. Do not underestimate called shot on tough enemies too. Even in nightmare mode the archer takes things down ridiculously fast.
Skald - Single Class
This is the key to making everything else work together. I freaking love this class. Improved bard song later makes all bards the same more or less but even up until then the AC damage thaco bonuses are unreal. Often when your tank is on that borderline of enough AC this is what pushes you over that edge. Late game when your 3 other characters are pushing 20-30 attacks per round, you are passively providing 120 damage per round without crits. That doesn't even include when they'd have otherwise missed, or gotten hit and had to reposition due to lower AC. On top of that this is my main dispeller. Remove magics, breach, even imp haste and tanking spells. With imp bard song you get over -20AC pretty easily. This will tank even in TOB effectively.
------------------------ Damage Distribution ------------------------
Play styles will of course alter this somewhat. I tend not to use backstab in nightmare. It just doesn't do enough. I use a lot of summons from the wands. I don't use cloudkill in nightmare mode where i used it to death in normal. The dynamics of play just change a lot. You need resilience and high throughput over time.
I've used all the dual classes. I've made ken/thieves and ken/mage. They are great versatile characters, but they tend to blow a lot whenever they fight. I found myself resting after a few battles. Alternatively with my setup I find that I rest very little and only put a lot of spell pressure on my cleric/ranger - who as luck would have it always has too many spells anyways. (Its a great place for your 3 bonus wisdom from tomes)
I'd love to hear any feedback or ideas for improvement or perhaps classes you think could do what mine do but better in some circumstances. Just keep in mind however that my powergaming means fast play with few rests. It naturally gravitates to hearty/protected characters that use less magic forms of damage.
Nightmare Mode - I've been playing this exclusively since it came out. My brain doesn't even process the old mode anymore so if that is what you are used to some of what I said might sound funny. If you haven't tried it yet, please give it a go - I found it really satisfying to fight through 1000 hit point mobs.
If you want to accept a challenge, get SOA and TOB in less than 40 days. Only use tweakpack and come back and post what you got! Keep in mind this means skipping areas and making as few trips to watcher's keep as you can. For the record I only skip areas with bad loot .
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I've been playing BG and BG2 since the games released, BG2 being my all-time favorite video game. However, I had never done a "powergaming" runthrough (I think I've only ever used 1 user-generated character, always take the in-game NPCs).
I had also never used a mod like SCS or played on anything above normal difficulty, so I decided I would start a new journey at candlekeep with SCS + Insane difficulty, create my own party, and see how it went. I just beat BG1EE and am right at the beginning of BG2EE (just finished irenicus' dungeon, at copper coronet now). BG2EE using SCS+Insane too of course.
Here's my party:
Inquisitor - using 1h Axe + Shield for early game (because of the several easy to get +3 axes early on), Carsomyr later
Kensai (will dual to mage at 9) - will use Flail of Ages / (belm or kundane)
Kensai (will dual to mage at 9) - will use Crom Faeyr / (belm or kundane)
Kensai (will dual to thief at either 9 or 13 - which one?) - will use Ang/SNT most likely
Archer - xbows and shortbows
I built the party based primarily on what I've read throughout this thread. BG1 was surprisingly easy even with SCS+Insane using this party. Traps sucked (had to muscle through them, sometimes using a resist potion), and I had to play clever for a lot of the fights. Bandit camp was probably the most difficult fight at the time I encountered it, due to the sheer number of enemies that charge you (using SCS). I had to take my Inquisitor, run him around the map a little so that all the enemies would sort of group up, and then I lured them back to my other group members who were waiting with several explosive potions. Once most of the bandits were dead from those, finishing the remaining few tough enemies (Taughoz or w/e was the toughest) wasn't so bad.
Werewolf island was fairly difficult too. I DID skip lower Durlag's tower because I've simply done it so many times and didn't want to engage in the frustration without having a thief to disarm all of the traps. It means that I missed out on the Aec'letec fight which probably would have been the best fight in all of BG1... but I simply did not want to do Durlags, I don't enjoy the dungeon. Did everything else.
Hardest Fights for my party in BG1 (at the time they were encountered):
1. Bandit Camp
2. 4 Mercs right outside Cloakwood Mine (ones w/ boots of speed) - I did this by using invis pots on all 4 melee characters, sneaking up to the mages, and killing them both first round w/ Kensai's having Kai activated
3. Top level of the Ship on Werewolf island - I think I only had 2 weapons that could hit, both being bastard swords (I had to run over and grab Balduran's sword to help), and nobody had any proficiency points in them, so it was rough killing Karoug.
Surprisingly easy fights that I thought would be terrible:
1. Drizzt - wow? I tried an attempt w/o using any buff potions just to see what I was dealing with, b/c I'm used to Drizzt hitting extremely hard and fast, but he died no problem. My inquisitor (tanking) was at half health or so when he died, having only used 1 health pot.
2. Davaeorn - This one was actually only easy b/c of the strat I used - I had my inquisitor dispell Dav's initiald defenses from afar, then inquisitor and 1 kensai sneak up w/ invis pots and attack Dav before his contingency defenses (from SCS) popped up - then my inquisitor uses another dispell right before Dav teleports, so he loses all defenses - he teleports to my other 3 group members (2 kensai and 1 archer) who rip him apart in 1 round. 2 battle horrors cleaned up easily!
3. Sarevok - well, I didn't think this one would be TOO terrible, but it was easier than I thought. I dispelled from afar, launched 5 fireballs (from explosive pots) which killed Semaj, ran inquisitor in to tank sarevok while others killed off Angelo + Tazok + the other guy that SCS adds. My first attempt I wanted to try w/o dispell but Sarevok just murdered me with haste on.. after dispelling haste, he wasn't bad.
Just wanted to share some of my journey so far! Looking forward to BG2 sooooo much! Any tips for my party, tips on how to metagame the XP-gain when I dual-class the kensais, etc?
and thanks for the awesome thread!
Archer dualed to thief at level 13
Wild Mage
Avenger dualed to fighter at level 10
Cleric/Illusionist
Skald or Haer'dalis
Jan
But that would really be overkill in the late game.
Your setup looks fine, it's got all the right cheese in all the right places. Very close to what I often run with (or used to run, when I still went with Inq). Weapon selection makes sense, I like having Axe on my Paladin also, since it's not dead later on thanks to Azuredge. Tried Archer->Mage once just for kicks, was quite the thing. I might experiment more with "illegal" combinations in the future, to try and find something interesting.
I wish I had planned a little better ahead to use celestial fury. Unfortunately I'm just hitting level 9 now and have 0 points in Katanas for anyone.
Wondering if I should take my kensai/thief to 5 stars in long swords, or leave at 4 for now and either (1) start putting some in sci/wak/nin for the SNT, or (2) start putting some in katana for celestial fury.
I guess there's not much reason to put points into the offhand-type; they're really just useful for the extra APR.
That said, I maybe wish I had kept long sword at 3*. 3 is when you get the +2 bonus to THAC0, which is really nice IMO. Did I make a mistake by going to 4 instead of investing into Katana?
Edit: I've also not really done a lot of dual-classing before. Is this basically the last set of proficiency points I'll ever get on my kensai/mages? After I switch to mage, will I ever get more points?
Personally, I've mostly moved over to skipping it, or using it on someone with prof pips to spare (e.g. Paladin). For me, stuns are less relevant than damage in many cases, and so I just go for a kill-them-before-they-do-anything approach. HOWEVER, given the new nightmare mode (which I still haven't gotten to try...) things may change. With more HP on enemies, control becomes more important - while of course at the same time, more damage *also* becomes more important. A tricky situation, and one I haven't yet had a chance to evaluate and test.
In general though, I think I would not want to sacrifice getting grand mastery asap, and I plan around that. If there's a spot or two where an off-weapon would be better at the time, well, that's just how the weapon proficiency system works. Luckily it's not a HUGE deal, and CF is probably the biggest issue in that respect.
I also put a point into katana for my kensai/thief (i.e. now that I'm in the thief levels). That way I guess I can use CF w/ at least 1 proficiency for fights where it would really help.
Will see if I can add more to it later, maybe I can. Already got 5* in long swords for that character.
2+2+2=4:
1)chavalier or inquisitor or blackguard or barbarian. melee
2)ranger 7 dualled into a cleric. melee and healer
3)cleric/illusionist gnome multi. healer and mage
4)sorcerer. mage
you could drop a sorcerer or a pure melee in favor of another cleric multi/dualclass to have 3 healers which is bretty good.
dont like thieves they feel exploit-y. playing with no locks or traps to remove frustration. SCS
I think it's most effective to have two characters as clerics, but not single-classed. It is the mid-level cleric spells, not the high-level cleric spells, that are so helpful, and the easiest way to get many castings of DW and CC is to spread cleric levels throughout the party.
I actually think even 3 clerics may be a good idea. But for that you have to drop paladin(bye bye carsomyr and free true seeing/dispel) or a sorc(this one is a good mage, you need mages in SCS to fight other mages).
1: Rod of Resurrection, for full HP, with a short delay and no chance of failure
2: Potions, for very quick healing
3: Greater Restoration, for full HP, with a casting time of 3
4: Pulling the character out of the fray to give them some breathing room, so they have time for further healing
The only healing spells that heal more than Potions of Extra Healing (the most common potion of BG2) are Heal and Greater Restoration. Heal, with a casting time of a full round, is usually not worth it, considering its touch range, which puts the caster directly into the fray, and therefore in the worst possible position for being disrupted. By the time your cleric gets to the target and finishes casting the spell, the injured party member will have already had enough time to down two Potions of Extra Healing for 54 HP. On top of that, they will also have enough time to run out of the fray entirely, if 54 HP healed and escaping the enemy's range are somehow not enough. And if they CAN'T just run out of the battle, it means they're surrounded, in which case your cleric can't reach them with Heal anyway.
Greater Restoration, meanwhile, is area-effect (despite the description), and with its fast casting time, the chance of being interrupted is usually nil, particularly since you can run away a short distance if you need the breathing room.
You can have an extra cleric in your party to make sure the first one doesn't get disrupted, which will increase the chance of your fighter surviving the battle. Or, you could just have an extra FIGHTER in your party, to absorb enemy damage and replace the first fighter if he or she should fall.
Clerics have excellent buffs, but there's almost no situation in which having a cleric heal a fighter is more effective than having two fighters healing themselves with potions.
so thats 58 health at 10th level.
for comparison, extra healing is 27 health
critical healing is 58 health; casting time 4
serious healing is 3d8+30 or 43 health; casting time 3
moderate is 2d8+20 or 29 health; casting time 2
light is 1d8+10 or around 9; cating time 1
Im also playing with full hit points both party and AI opponents, this makes battles last quite a bit longer and yes i often use up the healing potions with spells. My ~lvl 10-11 party has 120-130 health on melee and 60-70 on mages.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Clerics are bad per se, I just don't see them being better than alternatives. Obviously there's room for Clerics if you want them (Ber->Cler is a very good combo) but I've mostly found that they are just a worse version of a Mage a lot of the time.
If we limit the discussion to BG2 (because BG1 is basically just dominated by fighters/archers and has absolutely no need for a cleric or even an arcane spellcaster), I agree with sentiments expressed earlier in the thread that the game revolves around dispelling enemy combat protections (hence why Breach is the god spell of BG2) and then using physical damage dealers to finish off enemies. IMO this concept applies to the vast majority of the "tough" battles in BG2. I don't see clerics very clearly fitting into this role.
Cleric healing is almost completely useless IMO because you don't want to use those spells mid-fight, and there are plenty of potions + resting to take care of out of combat healing. Generally, with proper positioning, you should go through most battles taking very little or 0 damage.
Regarding cleric buffs, I don't find many of them to be critical in BG2, at least based on memory (to be fair it's been a while since I've used one in the game). Unlike IWD where you're facing large numbers of mostly fighter-style enemies, where spells like Prayer really help tilt the scales in favor of your force of fighters vs. the force of enemy fighters, BG2 is more focused on providing either (1) strong mage enemies, or (2) special creatures with special counters, like mind flayers, beholders, etc. Granted, clerics can be decent on type (2) above, but yeah... I just don't really see them as that useful.
I could be wrong though
I completely agree that IWD is a different game altogether in this respect. BG2 is exceptionally arcane-heavy, on both sides, and the divines just fall short. The Spell Revisions mod addresses this to some extent (I can heartily recommend it), but even there it's usually mages just doing everything you need better, and more.
It'll be interesting to see how Nightmare Mode changes things. A lot of the time right now in BG2 I feel like I'm simply brute-forcing things by overloading on offensive power, because I can finish fights quickly enough for utility etc. to never actually matter. If things had significantly more HP (as they do in NM mode), that may very well change.
@Lord_Tansheron: You can't always stop disablers from coming. In fact, I have difficulty imagining how you can end a fight before the disablers come out, when we talk about all the various enemies that use disablers:
Vampires (fear and charm)
Dragons (fear)
Liches (symbol spells, death spells)
Mages (chaos)
Mind Flayers (stun)
Myconids (confusion)
Umber Hulks (confusion)
Demons (fear, hold)
Beholders (fear, hold, charm, death spells)
Sahuagin (stunning bolts)
Kuo-toa (stunning bolts)
And there are more than this. Considering many of these spells and effects have a casting time of 1, it's more or less impossible to end the fight before the disablers get off the ground. So no, a battle is not going to end before disablers become a problem. These enemies are pervasive in BG2, and they simply do not go down in the first two rounds or first two seconds that they need to get their disablers off the ground. You say enemies who use disablers tend to go down quickly. Of the 11 broad groups of enemies above, how many of them die before they have time to use their disablers? Not all disablers come from unbuffed mages with 40 HP.
This is why saving throws are considered such a big deal in BG2. All of these can wreck a party's functioning on a failed save. Most deaths in BG2 have more to do with failing a save than anything else.
Chaotic Commands, Remove Fear, and Death Ward can render an entire party immune to these effects, and the spell duration is superb. Mages can't block all of these things, since some of the spells bypass Spell Immunity by virtue of having no school. Moreover, a mage's buffs only apply to him or herself, with the exception of Resist Fear, and they don't last nearly as long.
Add a mage to your group and you have one character with short-duration immunity to some disablers. Add a cleric to your group and you can have three characters with long-duration immunity to ALL disablers. I find mages more powerful than clerics overall, but clerics are much more beneficial to the group.
Now i have 120-130 hp at ~lvl 10 with maxed HP. Same applies to the opponents. Now i imagine that when i start meeting fiends, they will have all the HP you could possibly imagine. So yeah the fights last quite a bit longer.
That is again spell revisions v4 + scs + g3 tweakpack(the hp changes for both you and the opponent are in this mod). Notice that the first 2 mods alter spell and are compatile with each other.
You can ask to have a closed beta version of spell revisions v4 compatible with BG2 ee at gibberlings 3 forums Its NICE.
Then, take my ranger - > cleric... he s got 4 of those barkskin spells. They give bonus -3 ac no matter what. Even druid spells get better in that mod. Ofc with a chance they get dispelled in battles and enemy mages love dispelling and its a guarantee they do in a usual strong mage battle. You may even want to recast at this point. But otherwise handy to have a couple spells ready. My party doing bridge tanner quest has -11 ac inquisitor with it lol.
Then the greater restoration. It is a single target spell for me.
The mages in SCS cant be taken out instantly Because they buff heavily at start of combat simulating pre combat buffs your party gets. Basically in most cases you have to live through their spells and fight off lesser foes first, like clerics, backstabbers, fighters etc. Having dispel magic, resist fear break enchantment, remove paralysis, heals and restorations on more then 1-2 characters helps do exactly that and the party becomes mutually supportive.
Clerics also get mental domination - this is a rly powerful spell i think it has -2 save and a powterful effect. Cleric/mage gets this spell both on the mage and the cleric. Druids and cleric/ranger get charm and hold person or animal and monster or animal. These characters can also do save or die tactics to an extent.
Harm spell ignores MR in spell rev and does 150dmg (75 if saved). So do other spells like inflict wounds etc.
I ve done kensai mage and sorcerer runs and rly im not into such understanding of powergaming party )))
And of course, as I said before: you don't need 100% coverage. Just enough to remain more efficient than an alternative defensive play style.
NOTE: This is assuming a regular run. Obviously things change in things like No-Reload Challenges, for obvious reasons.
The items you mention are hugely important when it comes to solo runs, but they won't cover everybody in a full party. You can't get everybody immune to confusion using items alone. Same holds for stun and hold. You can get everyone immune to charm just using items, but that can displace better gear, and switching back and forth can be a hassle. Besides, not everyone can use the items that grant immunities. And there is precisely ONE item in the game that stops instant death effects, and it only arrives in ToB. You can scour BG2 for immunity-granting items, and keep them on hand whenever you need them, or you could just cast a single spell to grant all those immunities at once.
Even if your party has good saves, Chaotic Commands and Death Ward still improve the party's survivability. No, you don't need 100% coverage, in the same way you don't really need to use Celestial Fury or the Robe of Vecna. But 100% immunity to something is a lot better than 90% immunity to something, and that's precisely what Chaotic Commands gives you.
As far as overall efficiency goes, I think the solution I mentioned earlier is a good fix. Cleric levels don't give you great offensive measures, but you only need a few levels in cleric to get Death Ward and Chaotic Commands. There's also a lot to be said for Armor of Faith. If you want a party that can get through the game as quickly as possible, you might not want a bunch of clerics clogging up your party with their 1 APR and defensive magics. But if you want to minimize reloads and other headaches, having cleric levels in your party is the best way to prevent those things.
Items are a hassle and cost money. Saving throws are unreliable and are pretty poor for certain classes, including mages. And ending a fight early can be very demanding.
Chaotic Commands is a guaranteed fix for almost all disablers, and the disablers it doesn't block can be blocked by other cleric spells: Remove Fear and Free Action. Chaotic Commands even stops Maze.
If you top priority is offensive power, then you don't need clerics. But if you want to avoid having to reload based on an unlucky save, or having your fights delayed by disablers (your offensive power means little when you're disabled), then Chaotic Commands is usually the most convenient option.
While I agree that reloading is sort of cheesy, note that getting hit by a CC spell does NOT simply equal reloading. Nor does a dead character. Or two. The only time you actually HAVE to reload is if CHARNAME dies, and for obvious reasons you won't send him/her into the red zone willy-nilly. I'm perfectly fine just continuing if a CC hits; I don't just go and reload. Having the option does not automatically equal reloading at every juncture. I reserve reloads for when things REALLY go south, the rest is easily recovered from (particularly with two Rods of Resurrection). I am fairly sure I explained why that isn't necessary - you put the item on ONE person, and send them in. The way most enemies are scripted, they'll fire their attack at the first thing they see (Umberhulks, Vampires, Mind Flayers etc. all do this). The rest of the party simply follows behind a few steps, and then moves in once the initial volley has been blocked by the one guy wearing immunity items. By the time they get to casting things again (if they even have that in their script), they'll be dead or nearly dead.
Either way, I can only reiterate that it's NOT about COMPLETE coverage. That is unnecessary and inefficient. You just need ENOUGH coverage to remain ahead of a more conservative route. And it actually doesn't take a lot to reach that breakpoint, considering the strategies I outlined above and the overall incidence of dangerous effects to begin with. Absolutely. So does making everyone super tanky and buffing them with everything you can find. But it's not about absolutes - you don't just get these things for free. You trade off for the defensive power, with offense, with speed, with utility, etc. What matters in the comparison is the bottom line - which approach is more efficient. Safety only matters in respect to the impact it has on efficiency. In a regular run, that impact will be fairly small; in a no-reload run, it is obviously huge (but those are a special case, as are solo play and any number of other arbitrary extra rules). That is completely legitimate. If you accept lower efficiency as a trade-off for convenience or personal preference, that is entirely okay. It's your choice, this is after all a single player game. Just keep in mind that regardless of your own subjective choice, there may be other options that are objectively more efficient in terms of time etc. That's all we're discussing here, basically. Personal choice trumps everything in the end, but people should be presented with all the information before making that choice. Those concerns seem a bit out of place for powergaming, at least in my opinion. You only need a few select, very specific items; getting them is often extremely easy and/or otherwise rewarding (getting Lilarcor for example is also great XP). Very few of the items I use to deal with things are actually sold - in fact I spend about 90% of my gold on spells and not items most of the time. Agreed. Hence my questioning of NM mode, where offensive power probably can't be the silver bullet fix-all. But outside of that, my experience has been that you can plow through pretty much anything with enough of an offense, and just deal with the things they throw in your way. Doesn't always work, but it works often enough. In fact, even when using Clerics the #1 spell I use BY FAR is not Chaotic Commands, or any other defensive buff - it's Draw upon Holy Might. More offensive power, but with a priestly flavor.
Our arguments hinge on what we're trying to accomplish: if you want lots of power, clerics are seldom ever the way to go, and if you do have them, the more important spell will be DUHM. If you want safety, then clerics are almost a necessity.
What kind of party do you normally use, if clerics aren't there to provide immunities?
That being said, I often play different setups, simply because I feel like it. The overall principles remain the same, but the setups vary. If I do use clerics, they'll be optimized for offense - DuHM, Righteous Magic, the whole shebang. I rarely cast Chaotic Commands even with a cleric, simply because I don't find I need it with the strategies I mentioned. The same goes for many other defensive strategies; I just don't tend to employ them because I find them inefficient. Spending time buffing is time I could spend beating on heads instead - and by the time you've finished casting the last Chaotic Commands, I've already moved on to the next group of enemies.
"Considering this thread is about POWERgaming... :P"
By power, I mean offensive power. Again, it's a difference of priorities, whether you want to finish a battle as quickly as possible, or with the minimum possible chance of reloading.
I've read many of these threads over the years while quietly playing my own game. I consider myself a powergamer at heart but I approach it from an analytical perspective rather than wanting to reduce the challenge of the game. I try to find the best way to overcome the diverse challenges of the game in the most efficient possible manner. To this end I've set up some rules for myself.
1. Same party from start to finish and no NPCs
I start a multiplayer session and keep the party the same throughout. I reload if a character gets blown up but reloading is very rare for me as I have the entire game memorized and have no excuse for mistakes.
2. A few convenience tweaks
I stack ammo and gems and other similar conveniences with the use of the tweakpack. I install a total of 16 of the options but my next play through will likely reduce this to 12. After playing through the game a zillion times though some of the inventory stuff gets tedious and doesn't add anything.
3. Nightmare mode - Insane
While nightmare was new to me, it played wonderfully and I really enjoyed the added challenge. I've played with SCS and ascension before and they all have their various good and bad points. For the purposes of this setup though I chose to keep the most simple and repeatable environment. I experienced NO game breaking bugs.
4. Limited Resting
This is a really big point and the one I hope you all read and understand. This is KEY to my max/min setups. Anyone can rest after every fight and blow 30 spells a battle and get through the game. It takes a lot more skill IMO to be very careful about every spell usage and sleep only when you absolutely have to. My last game ended with killing Mellissan on day 42 to give you an idea. This included many mistakes and wasted time with redundant trips. I hope to streamline this down to around 35.
5. Limited Play Time
Again, we can all sit there for a week and leisurely beat the game. I'm not racing really, but I expect to do the entire game in 2-3 days of solid playing. This is an area I've been working on reducing quite a bit as I tend to sit back and theorycraft when i make new discoveries. Often I start over if the discovery is big enough.
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Below I've listed my ideal setup so far. It is an evolving setup that can change as I discover new things. So far however it has been the best performing. Please keep in mind I have played...everything. I can't of course have played all compositions but every possible powergame setup I have tried. This group for me has been the most powerful.
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4 PLAYER PARTY
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Real quick I'll mention that I feel that anything over 4 characters is clumsy. I've solo'd, duo'd and trio'd everything, and I feel that 4 is ideal to meet the challenges in nightmare mode. There is experience to spare, as you'll cap out in the first game, so you can come up with 5 or 6 person comps, but since I run multiclasses preferably for their power curves, I enjoy the faster experience that 4 people has.
Cleric/Ranger - Multiclass
This guy is your NPC and main tank. He goes FOA and Shield and Sling. This character is beautiful for everything it provides and is your mega-tank. I tend to put the very best AC items on him and get him to around -21 AC. This will tank anything for a long time with the exception of some of the ridiculous enemies in TOB. But even THEN - with 10 ironskins to blow through and hardiness+defender+armor of faith, you can handle almost any tanking situation. I realize cleric/rangers aren't a "new" thing, but emphasizing this character as your NPC main stat hog, might surprise you. With limited rests this guy is also a great asset as you get a bajillion spells. I load him up with a bunch of whirlwinds too for when I need focused damage on particularly deadly opponents.
Fighter/Mage/Thief - Multiclass
This guy takes care of all of your traps, he wields carsomyr and usually undead destroying weapons on swaps. Hes a jack of all trades. Late game hes improved hasted machine with the ravager or carsomyr and uses the firetooth+3 forever after we get it from the drow. I load him up with str items, and try to get his AC as high as possible without messing with this casting ability. This guy very easily could be the main character. So much utility in one class is of huge benefit
Archer - Single Class
I know I know, I've read everything you guys have had to say about this class, but I simply don't agree with the idea that this class loses power. The insane thaco makes him your dragon slayer. His raw damage per round exceeds anything I've found, especially when you aren't using haste in the early game. Late game at a solid 5 or 4.5 attacks per round though hes amazing for imp haste. A well positioned archer going from tuigan to gesen simply doesn't stop damaging. Do not underestimate called shot on tough enemies too. Even in nightmare mode the archer takes things down ridiculously fast.
Skald - Single Class
This is the key to making everything else work together. I freaking love this class. Improved bard song later makes all bards the same more or less but even up until then the AC damage thaco bonuses are unreal. Often when your tank is on that borderline of enough AC this is what pushes you over that edge. Late game when your 3 other characters are pushing 20-30 attacks per round, you are passively providing 120 damage per round without crits. That doesn't even include when they'd have otherwise missed, or gotten hit and had to reposition due to lower AC. On top of that this is my main dispeller. Remove magics, breach, even imp haste and tanking spells. With imp bard song you get over -20AC pretty easily. This will tank even in TOB effectively.
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Damage Distribution
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25% - Cleric/Ranger
25% - Fighter/Mage/Thief
50% - Archer
0% - Skald
Play styles will of course alter this somewhat. I tend not to use backstab in nightmare. It just doesn't do enough. I use a lot of summons from the wands. I don't use cloudkill in nightmare mode where i used it to death in normal. The dynamics of play just change a lot. You need resilience and high throughput over time.
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Closing Thoughts
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I've used all the dual classes. I've made ken/thieves and ken/mage. They are great versatile characters, but they tend to blow a lot whenever they fight. I found myself resting after a few battles. Alternatively with my setup I find that I rest very little and only put a lot of spell pressure on my cleric/ranger - who as luck would have it always has too many spells anyways. (Its a great place for your 3 bonus wisdom from tomes)
I'd love to hear any feedback or ideas for improvement or perhaps classes you think could do what mine do but better in some circumstances. Just keep in mind however that my powergaming means fast play with few rests. It naturally gravitates to hearty/protected characters that use less magic forms of damage.
Nightmare Mode - I've been playing this exclusively since it came out. My brain doesn't even process the old mode anymore so if that is what you are used to some of what I said might sound funny. If you haven't tried it yet, please give it a go - I found it really satisfying to fight through 1000 hit point mobs.
If you want to accept a challenge, get SOA and TOB in less than 40 days. Only use tweakpack and come back and post what you got! Keep in mind this means skipping areas and making as few trips to watcher's keep as you can. For the record I only skip areas with bad loot