Would be nice to be able to configure that. Maybe something to suggest for the SCS or BG2Tweaks people... It feels a bit too little still, maybe *5+100 or something would be nice.
@Lord_Tansheron really nice post - I read it through a few times to figure out what I wanted to respond to!
re:nightmare - I'm happy you got a chance to mess around with it. I really like the feel of things not exploding instantly and having longer more "epic" fights. You mentioned ammo conservation, which is definitely an issue so be very careful.
re:mods - If you do not use mods NM is not really that much more difficult. Sadly I still feel we are missing the AI improvements that could really make the standalone game even more of a masterpiece. I will definitely check out your particular suite of mods as I finish my current play-through. Any further comments on exactly what you install would be helpful as I might just copy your setup verbatim.
re:6playergroups - You are of course right, and 6 party members will result in a stronger setup. I think I need to let go of my stubborn use of 4 and embrace the stronger group. I've had a lot of fun perfecting the 4 man and am comfortable with the experience pacing. I skip parts of the game with poor loot still and graduating to 6 man group will probably force me to go back to them.
re:skald - I think on this point we'll have to agree to disagree. I might make some sort of crazy pro-bard post later but I don't want to go on too much of a rant. I seriously have like 30 different good things to say about bards and it would be the majority of this post if I started in on it.
re:swash->fighter - You have figured something clever out. It always broke my heart that swashies didn't get that extra half an attack and they just ended up being a less powerful figher/thief. You figured a way to get the minimum thief requirements (early game) while turning them into a much stronger fighter. It hurts my pride a little, but I'm stealing this one from you.
re:tanks - I've switched away from tank emphasis a bit in NM which is somewhat the opposite of your position. I think we just played from opposite extremes and have both come back toward a middle a bit. My iron/stoneskins get ripped off me really fast in the longer fights just based on 20s. I'm not sure about your feeling on monster summoning wand, but summons in nightmare are overpowered.
re:otherclasschoices - Everythign else you mentioned seems reasonable. We both love our archers, and the other power spots you have are very similar to mine. I think if I used 6 characters it would be something like.....
skald (YUP) DKZerth swash10->fighter (STOLEN) (unsure on weapon) cleric/ranger (IMO still most overpowered character) FOA archer (we agree, these are incredible) (gesen unless mods) kensai mage or ken thief (firetooth +3)***** monk???!?!? lol
*****Do not underestimate throwing daggers. They get strength modded now and output ridiculous damage per round ranged. Keep in mind that kensais can get 5 pips in dagger and use it ranged even though they aren't supposed to be able to use ranged weapons.
I still didn't play Nightmare Mode, but considering the longer fights with enemies dealing even more damage, I'm pretty sure characters without any means to tank, like your Berserker dual Cleric will get destroyed sooner or later. In my opinion, and especially due to the huge increase in experience earned, you could replace the Berserker dual Cleric by a F/C and get the Hardiness HLA really fast.
I agree with many of your points, on some others I feel like I need to test things more before I can make a determination.
Skald is definitely still on my radar. It is annoying to micro, yes, but essentially having your entire party immune to a LOT of bad stuff ALL the time is quite powerful. Perhaps I just need to get through the early game and it'll get better after that? What I definitely do not like though is pairing it with a bunch of low APR characters; R/C and Monk seem like fairly poor choices to make best use of the Skald bonus.
Speaking of R/C, that's another class I have never really gotten to work. It feels like I'm running a bad Berserker->Cleric just to have Iron Skins - is there something else I'm missing? I'm not convinced that Skins (as good as they are) are reason enough alone to drop GM and Berserker Rage.
Thrown weapons along with Slings are in queue for testing. I really need to find the right way to use them, though. Knife-throwing looks nice on paper, but it really requires a more substantial per-hit bonus than a Kensai 9 dual can provide; even at max APR, it'd just deal less damage than a melee weapon, while being weaker in enchantment and more easily resisted (piercing/missile). I have similar concerns about Slings, though these do have Erinne Sling+4 which is pretty powerful (10% chance for 100 damage at -4 save sounds tasty). Fire Tooth being available only in the Underdark is also a big issue I have with thrown (though I haven't checked to see where IR puts it).
I've played through my run some more, though not an awful lot as I don't feel too hot. I'm definitely coming back to those Spirit Trolls soon, but for now I'm finishing off some minor side quests here and there as well as most of Ch3's main story (not the vampire assault though) to round up some XP and pad my levels to a bit more comfortable range. As I mentioned earlier, I'm a bit conflicted about the crossbows. They do great damage, but freezing for 1.5s after each attack can be quite the detriment. I still haven't gotten to testing it with GWW (mostly because I'm lazy) but I suspect that reload will severely diminish its efficacy. If that is the case, I may have to reconsider my dual-range setup; either by getting another melee after all, or by switching to something more reliable like Short Bows, or doing something completely different like the aforementioned Thrown/Slings.
So far the only characters I am NOT considering for the chopping block are the Inquisitor and the Archer - ironically my only two non-duals. I've thought about thief again, for example, and perhaps I just don't need it after all. I'll have to see just how important Detect Illusions will turn out to be with an Inquisitor around I suppose, and whether IR has done something with items that are only available from pickpocket.
In general, it feels to me like NM is definitely putting more strain on the defenses of my party; no more glass cannon builds! But at the same time, high HP also means that damage remains VERY important. Killing things like mages etc. quickly seems to be a better solution to many fights rather than trying to outlast them with buffs/tanking etc. That in turn means I have to revisit things like Clerics, which are primarily there for the buffs. They may still be worth it, depending on makeup, especially since they do come with things like DUHM - and with longer fight duration, I may not want to lean too heavily on mage buffs alone.
Lots to find out, lots to discover! And that's not even touching upon things like CC, utility spells, summons, etc. which I have still on my list for testing. So little time, so much to do...
So, I decided to be NOT lazy for a change and actually test some things. Today it's all about RANGED!
#1 Thrown Weapons
I tested Dragon Tooth+3, which is the IR version of Fire Tooth (i.e. the throwing dagger, not Firetooth the Crossbow - and you wonder why the mod changed the name!).
Surprisingly, it appears that in IR, thrown daggers will NOT in fact receive STR bonus damage. I tested with various levels of STR, and it did not appear to influence the damage at all. That in turn means that thrown weapons are out of contention. The damage is simply not good enough.
#2 Slings
This was a bit weird. It seems that STR applies to *some* Slings, but not all. I tested the Erinne Sling+4 from IR, and it did NOT receive STR bonuses - the damage was fairly poor, though the proc was pretty funny... and 100% more than listed. It says 100 damage on the item, but dealt 200 each time. Bug @Demivrgvs ?
Next I tested Everard's Sling+5. This Sling for some reason DOES receive bonus STR damage, and that results in quite some throughput if you can pump up the APR. It dealt around ~45 damage at 21 STR, which is respectable.
Finally, I tested the Sling of Force+2. Now, this sling actually specifically states that it does add STR bonuses - which leads me to believe that the default behavior in IR is supposed to be NO STR on Slings, and this one does it as a bonus. Why Everard's Sling does it, too, I cannot say.
#3 Crossbows and GWW
This one ended up as I feared. The forced reload time on Crossbows with IR hurts their APR potential. Under GWW, I managed 5 shots in one round at best with Firetooth. That means that despite the high damage, Crossbows have trouble remaining competitive with Bows, as the damage per hit is already close: 17.5 for Firetooth+5 vs. 16.5 for Strong Arm+2 with Arrows+3 resp. 15.5 for Iron Bow of Gesen, and consider in this that Strong Arm can be bought immediately.
Now, of course SR does not feature double APR under Improved Haste (only +1), but it still means that any ranged utilizing GWW will want to avoid Crossbows at any cost. Since I most often use ranged on an Archer anyway, that is going to be a huge factor. I don't think I'll go with XBows for the time being. There are many really good Bows available, and it's much easier to kite with them, too.
Speaking of IH... While I of course had read the Spell Revisions changes, I probably underestimated the gravity of this particular one. Without IH doubling APR, APR loses relative value. APR is so damn powerful in BG2 in part because it counts double under IH - and now it doesn't. That means that losing APR is not that big a deal anymore, e.g. by not having access to Grandmastery. This in turn raises the value of multiclass characters, as one of the biggest issues with them was previously their lack of GM.
So, I think I'll have to apologize to @Tredvolt for dissing his R/C, and his lower APR setup in general. I completely forgot about SR's IH. Sorry! I'll also have to rethink my own setup, as dual > multi is in part motivated by GM. Things like F/M are a real consideration now, particularly for a ranged class as you can pick up the Elf racial bonus for Long Bows. R/C also becomes more interesting, though the druid spells are still not overly convincing.
I see that so many things have changed... This will take a while to get straight and optimize. I LOVE IT!
re:mods - I like the idea of the mods injecting some new problem solving elements into the game and attempting to rebalanced overpowered things such as IH, HOWEVER it starts to be a totally different game. This is okay, but it starts to break down the basis for comparison. For the sake of discussion I'll assume base setup with only changes to AI and difficulty rather than a suite of re-balanced core elements.
Character Discussion Time
Nightmare seems to heavily favor high damage throughput, safe characters. One of the criticisms of this sort of game difficulty is that it starts to diminish the value of damage spells that are more favorable in burst compositions and even buff spells that have limited durations. Regardless, it is what we are playing now so we'll continue and accept the environment of nightmare.
Ranged Damage dealers are in vogue and should go along with the theme of your previous post. My favored 4 member party has the following.
#1 ranger/cleric (2.5 apr base w/sling specialist) Often having 25 str between duhm and righteous, this character uses the best slings and GWW to get burst down on the most dangerous enemies. Since this is also my main tank, hes the first to switch from ranged and get in the face of the enemies that make it through the ranged onslaught or past my summons.
#2 fighter/thief (3.5 apr base w/firetooth+3) She wears the str belts and has a very high throughput. Early on she uses the boomerang dagger from the bridge and that is reasonable up until the underdark. I also max out GWWs for that burst.
#3 archer (5.0 apr tuigan 4.0 apr gesen) The archer also uses the apr gauntlets so bump that up a bit.
#4 bard (0 apr song bot)
SO... the point being I feel I've maxed out ranged damage power as the most efficient damage strategy for nightmare. Between IH for the archer and GWW uses for my other two characters, even things like dragons take 1000+ damage in just a couple rounds.
Now how can I transition to a 6 player strategy and what would be the best additions to my composition. On this subject I've carefully looked at the suggestions in this thread and others to find the best options. It is somewhat more difficult because many of the best weapons are already being used. I think this observation actually gives me the key to finding the best 5th and 6th slot.
What power-ranged weapons are not currently being used, and then what characters facilitate the best use of those weapons.
Candidates
Army Scythe Strongarm Tuigan (after main archer upgrades to gesen) Tansheron Firetooth+5
Due primarily to the time when these items are available I'm favoring Strongarm and Army Scythe. The crossbow user can later adjust over to firetooth if that makes more sense on math. The strongarm user can switch to tansheron for +3 damage and hoard special ammunition for TOB.
Now heres the not so great part. Having identified these item targets, we are left with deciding which classes best use them. It is at this point you might see the direction this is taking us. More archers.....
ranger/cleric - foa + best slings + best tanking gear fighter/thief - boomerang into firetooth+3 archer #1 - tuigan into gesen archer #2 - army scythe into firetooth+5 archer #3 - strongarm w/+3 arrows into tansheron if necessary skald - for epic buffs
The comp throws out summons (skeletons or wand) or just has the ranger/cleric tank for fights less than 6 monsters. MEANWHILE the ranged damage dealers delete one by one every enemy.
The hardest part of the game is the beginning, which is where the archers are strongest. Perhaps this comp is a bit boring for some, but if I'm gonna tackle a max/min problem it seems that this would be my best choice.
Honorable mention fighter/mage/thief instead of fighter/thief does allow for more buffs late game and gives you a 2nd solid tank (and a better tank in general for dragons) but I'm not sure you'll need it -_-. It just takes forever even on nightmare to get everything you need. I also prefer white dragon armor vs asylferund.
@Lord_Tansheron I'm falling asleep but I'll try to reply to your points.
Thrown Weapons Daggers don't get STR dmg bonus because they already get +1apr. With STR dmg they would hugely outshine thrown axes, as well as the few returning hammers and spears.
Slings I'm still torn about giving slings STR dmg bonuses. One hand I would, otoh I fear it would make them really too good considering they also leave a hand free to equipe IR's powerful shields. I'll try to handle the inconsistencies you noticed, but they are caused by EE imposing STR dmg (vanilla BG2 slings had no STR dmg). Btw, the super slow weapon speed factor of IR's slings was added because I thought I was going to make them get STR dmg in exchange, but I was not convinced yet and didn't received enough feedback from players to truly decide.
Crossbows and GWW The base idea was: - xbows are better than bows on untrained hands - bows are better than xbows if used by trained fighters That's why IR's xbows are both more damaging (instead of 1d8 it's1d10 now, which is almost twice as much as bow's 1d6) and more accurate than before (they now get +1 attack roll bonus). The reload time is there exactly to cap max apr, not only for concept reasons. For those with only proficiency skill and low apr xbows are clearly the best pick, for specialized warriors with 2 apr both weapon types have pros and cons, while for weapon masters with 3+ apr bows are superior. GWW is clearly suited best to bows.
SR's Haste & Improved Haste This tweak is still not set in stone. It was mostly done to fix haste's many issues (e.g. giving +1/2 apr instead of +1 in certain cases, causing 2x frequency on repeating EFFs, poison, regen, etc.) and rebalance both spells, but we are still testing them. As always, players feedback will play a decisive role to make me decide what to do.
@Tredvolt Very interesting points. A lot to ponder. I feel that a R/C Slinger might be something to check out, I like the concept and there is essentially no reason to go Fighter instead of Ranger anyway when multi-classing, so the Druid spells are just a nice bonus. It may be the Cleric I'm looking for(?).
I'm not sure how much ranged damage I want. While it's true NM by nature benefits avoidance-based approaches, ranged weapons do in the end deal less damage than melee - and something has to whittle down those NM HP. That being said it may very well be worth it to explore 3+ ranged setups. I'll have to think and do some math.
@Demivrgvs It's good to hear some of the thoughts behind the changes! I only wish I had the time to test your work more comprehensively and give deeper feedback... Sadly only one more day and then it's back to slavery
I like your reasoning behind XBows, and also the solution you came up with to cap APR. That's very good design. Since there isn't really a big reason to choose one type of ranged over the other for a GM'd user (they are all fairly equal in utility) it's entirely fine to just stick to bows. I was hoping to squeeze some juice out of the AoE damage of Firetooth+5, but more for personal enjoyment than anything else. Objectively speaking, your change makes a lot of sense.
On the Slings though I'm not sure I agree. The main reason is that unlike bows, they are SEVERELY lacking in special features because there are like 2 different types of special bullets (sun and smiting) and they are very limited in supply. That means that Slings remain fairly low in terms of effectiveness as their damage just doesn't grow well. I find the shield argument to be fairly minor. You're already at range and thus more protected, the actual impact of shield + sling should be basically negligible. Even if you allowed STR bonuses to apply, all you'd end up with is damage comparable to a dagger (1d4+x), and equally suffering from issues of resistance (piercing/missile). No special abilities like you find on melee weapons, mediocre damage, oft-resisted damage type... I feel like that is enough of a drawback that you don't also need to leave out STR bonuses. I feel like if anything, melee needs MORE competition, not less. Already the best way to deal damage is via melee weapons (for the most part, early/mid game Archers can compete), and melee weapons come with a ton of extras attached, too (immunities, special procs, etc.). Basically the only good Sling is Erinne Sling+4 (which I also love the design of btw!), all the others are fairly poor weapons, all things considered. Of course I do also understand your position. If you let ranged get too close to melee in terms of throughput, then at some point you just want to range/kite everything because you lose so little damage for not having to stand there taking a full load in the face all the time. Very tough to balance.
I'll try and get some more testing in tomorrow and fiddle around with things more, both in terms of weapon types etc. and in terms of party composition. I feel like there are many things that can be explored still, real excited to see them!
Don't mind that, but I don't want to offend the non-powergamers with loads of theory talk etc. And besides, NM should probably become the new powergaming paradigm anyway, right? ¬_¬
I know this thread is laid to rest but i have a question for you guys. I´ll start playing A full playthrough with SCS and the revisions mods though without NM Mode.
Party will consist of Berserker 13(with SOD xp) -> Mage Ranger / Cleric Inquisitor Archer Thief -> Wild Mage (i know it´s not legit... but want to play neera) sorc
What do you think? Is 3 Mages to spell heavy or does it lack tanky characters?
@Truschka consider that you can even solo SCS with just a Sorc or a Berserk/M without too many difficulties, especially if you aren't playing nightmare or no-reload. So I don't see the problem
I know this thread is laid to rest but i have a question for you guys. I´ll start playing A full playthrough with SCS and the revisions mods though without NM Mode.
Party will consist of Berserker 13(with SOD xp) -> Mage Ranger / Cleric Inquisitor Archer Thief -> Wild Mage (i know it´s not legit... but want to play neera) sorc
What do you think? Is 3 Mages to spell heavy or does it lack tanky characters?
Greetz
Nah, looks munchkinny enough. Don't forget that Mages are incredibly tanky if you know how to set up their triggers/contingencies. Although, I never got the point of playing SCS and the likes, if you diminish the added challenge by creating ubercheese parties. Kind of defeats the whole point. Parties like these are more for things like Tactics/Improved Anvil.
Wizard Slayer (with the WS rebalancing mod) Blackguard (I was I chose the Cavalier, BG is not very impressive) Fighter/illusionist Ranger/Cleric (I enabled the druid spells, but I'm in Spellhold the III lvl of Watchers' keep and used them maybe once...) Fighter/Cleric/Mage Fighter/Thief/Mage
I installed Tactics and SCSII but i feel like the old Weidu components don't show up often and some battles are a breeze.
I don't use contigencies, just prebuffs in hellish fights such as Tor'Gal.
Your party looks solid enough. I assume it's not Nightmare Mode? That would explain why you find some battles super easy, a very aggressive playstyle can just allow you to steamroll many encounters in normal mode.
Interesting you went with a pure WS instead of a dual. Any specific reason behind that?
Your party looks solid enough. I assume it's not Nightmare Mode? That would explain why you find some battles super easy, a very aggressive playstyle can just allow you to steamroll many encounters in normal mode.
Interesting you went with a pure WS instead of a dual. Any specific reason behind that?
I just red about this nightmare mod. It sounds brutal, but I'm not really into that stuff. It completely revamps the game, from what I red, +10 saves bonuses? My God.
Is it even possible to make it through SCS + nightmare without a sorcerer & inquisitor?
@lololo555: No save bonuses. That's an IWD2 thing, unless they add it to NM mode in the next updates.
Nightmare mode adds 12 levels to every enemy, triples HP, adds 80 HP on top of that, and gives them an extra attack per round. They also deal double damage. But I'm sure @Lord_Tansheron can confirm SCS and Nightmare mode are doable without a sorcerer or an inquisitor. I don't know if they use SCS much, but I've done okay in my incomplete NM SCS IR/SR runs, and I haven't used sorcerers or inquisitors.
Yes, totally doable. I never use Sorcerers anyway, I find them inefficient. Inquisitor is nice to have, but by no means required. If I'm honest, the main reason I take one along is probably Carsomyr.
NM changes many things, but less than you think. I find it a great addition, but mods are still required to make the game challenging in any way. SCS is non-negotiable. IR and SR I find a new paradigm that I would not do without anymore. NM just adds to that and gives some extra spice, as well as enforcing more diversity by making all the dumb right-click-attack-afk setups less viable.
@Lord_Tansheron what builds you don't consider dumb? The ones that use kensai->mage with a ton of sequencers and pfmw?
Also I don't really have the whole game memorised good enough to remember which spell is essential to get through each stage, let alone double(or triple down) on the difficulty and cheese. I was stuck on the Spellhold Lich which you can't take down in a fair battle without Pierce magic.
what builds you don't consider dumb? The ones that use kensai->mage with a ton of sequencers and pfmw?
I think you may be misunderstanding. I'm referring to builds that are so powerful you can essentially buff up, right-click to attack, then stand up and leave and they'll finish the fight anyway. A bit of hyperbole might be involved here. My gripe for the longest time has always been the brutal effectiveness of full offense, even to the point of glass cannon. I found that you can overpower many fights without ever worrying about strategy too much, simply because you put out so much damage everything dies before it ever matters. With Nightmare Mode, that's changed. Even the silliest mooks have hundreds of HP, and while that doesn't make them huge threats, it means more cumulative issues to worry about and work around during a fight, instead of ignoring them completely.
Also I don't really have the whole game memorised good enough to remember which spell is essential to get through each stage, let alone double(or triple down) on the difficulty and cheese. I was stuck on the Spellhold Lich which you can't take down in a fair battle without Pierce magic.
It's totally fine to adjust your personal game to whatever level of skill and meta knowledge you have. Don't let the things we talk about concern you, keep in mind that many of us have been playing this for over a decade. You'll find your own pace and your own level of challenge, and then you can slowly turn it up from there, bit by bit. It's what we did.
I think you may be misunderstanding. I'm referring to builds that are so powerful you can essentially buff up, right-click to attack, then stand up and leave and they'll finish the fight anyway. A bit of hyperbole might be involved here. My gripe for the longest time has always been the brutal effectiveness of full offense, even to the point of glass cannon. I found that you can overpower many fights without ever worrying about strategy too much, simply because you put out so much damage everything dies before it ever matters. With Nightmare Mode, that's changed.
I get it now, you are reffering to the standard mob fights. Well for me "boss" battles are still suprising, after all those years, although I have some Tactics, CoM and Rogue Rebalancing encounters thrown here.
Also I have a question, because I can't find a definitive answer on that. Is cranking up detect illusion in a thief raising its effectiveness? I get that from some point you can dispel pretty much everything, but does cranking it to the 250 make it faster?
AFAIK, going over 100 in Detect Illusions does absolutely nothing. Same for Pick Lock and Find Traps, possibly even Pick Pocket (unsure on that one, I practically never use it).
Hide/Move however do seem to benefit from higher values, as they're subject to various penalties depending on the situation. Also you should just use Move Silently and pretty much ignore Hide in Shadows because of how it works (takes the average value of both to see if you can hide, but only uses Move value to see if you stay hidden).
If that is indeed how things still work, been a long time since I checked the details. Gods, I hate thieves
You can effectively consider 100 to be the maximum for all thief skills besides stealth.
Above 100: Pick Pockets: greater chance of success Hide in Shadows: greater chance of success Move Silently: greater chance of success Detect Illusions: no change Set Traps: no change Open Locks: can pick a few more high-level locks Find Traps: can disarm a few more high-level traps
It's more useful for stealth, since sunlight and the like impose penalties. For pickpocketing, opening locks, and finding traps, there's generally little point to having more than 100, as you can drink a potion for the few occasions in the game where you'll actually need above 100 to do what you're trying to do.
Hide in Shadows and Move Silently are fundamentally identical. Having 200 HS and 10 MS is no different from having 200 MS and 10 HS.
Note that without any penalty (sunlight and so forth) 100 will be enough to hide successfully everytime. As far as I know there is no penalty that do more than halving your HiS / MS skills so 200/200 should be the cap for these skills and should allow you to always manage to hide.
I don't think I remember ever encountering a lock that couldn't be opened with 100 in open locks. What locks in particular are you referring to? Do you remember?
Comments
re:nightmare - I'm happy you got a chance to mess around with it. I really like the feel of things not exploding instantly and having longer more "epic" fights. You mentioned ammo conservation, which is definitely an issue so be very careful.
re:mods - If you do not use mods NM is not really that much more difficult. Sadly I still feel we are missing the AI improvements that could really make the standalone game even more of a masterpiece. I will definitely check out your particular suite of mods as I finish my current play-through. Any further comments on exactly what you install would be helpful as I might just copy your setup verbatim.
re:6playergroups - You are of course right, and 6 party members will result in a stronger setup. I think I need to let go of my stubborn use of 4 and embrace the stronger group. I've had a lot of fun perfecting the 4 man and am comfortable with the experience pacing. I skip parts of the game with poor loot still and graduating to 6 man group will probably force me to go back to them.
re:skald - I think on this point we'll have to agree to disagree. I might make some sort of crazy pro-bard post later but I don't want to go on too much of a rant. I seriously have like 30 different good things to say about bards and it would be the majority of this post if I started in on it.
re:swash->fighter - You have figured something clever out. It always broke my heart that swashies didn't get that extra half an attack and they just ended up being a less powerful figher/thief. You figured a way to get the minimum thief requirements (early game) while turning them into a much stronger fighter. It hurts my pride a little, but I'm stealing this one from you.
re:tanks - I've switched away from tank emphasis a bit in NM which is somewhat the opposite of your position. I think we just played from opposite extremes and have both come back toward a middle a bit. My iron/stoneskins get ripped off me really fast in the longer fights just based on 20s. I'm not sure about your feeling on monster summoning wand, but summons in nightmare are overpowered.
re:otherclasschoices - Everythign else you mentioned seems reasonable. We both love our archers, and the other power spots you have are very similar to mine. I think if I used 6 characters it would be something like.....
skald (YUP) DKZerth
swash10->fighter (STOLEN) (unsure on weapon)
cleric/ranger (IMO still most overpowered character) FOA
archer (we agree, these are incredible) (gesen unless mods)
kensai mage or ken thief (firetooth +3)*****
monk???!?!? lol
*****Do not underestimate throwing daggers. They get strength modded now and output ridiculous damage per round ranged. Keep in mind that kensais can get 5 pips in dagger and use it ranged even though they aren't supposed to be able to use ranged weapons.
I'll have to do some more thinking on 6.
Good luck on your play-through!
In my opinion, and especially due to the huge increase in experience earned, you could replace the Berserker dual Cleric by a F/C and get the Hardiness HLA really fast.
I agree with many of your points, on some others I feel like I need to test things more before I can make a determination.
Skald is definitely still on my radar. It is annoying to micro, yes, but essentially having your entire party immune to a LOT of bad stuff ALL the time is quite powerful. Perhaps I just need to get through the early game and it'll get better after that? What I definitely do not like though is pairing it with a bunch of low APR characters; R/C and Monk seem like fairly poor choices to make best use of the Skald bonus.
Speaking of R/C, that's another class I have never really gotten to work. It feels like I'm running a bad Berserker->Cleric just to have Iron Skins - is there something else I'm missing? I'm not convinced that Skins (as good as they are) are reason enough alone to drop GM and Berserker Rage.
Thrown weapons along with Slings are in queue for testing. I really need to find the right way to use them, though. Knife-throwing looks nice on paper, but it really requires a more substantial per-hit bonus than a Kensai 9 dual can provide; even at max APR, it'd just deal less damage than a melee weapon, while being weaker in enchantment and more easily resisted (piercing/missile). I have similar concerns about Slings, though these do have Erinne Sling+4 which is pretty powerful (10% chance for 100 damage at -4 save sounds tasty). Fire Tooth being available only in the Underdark is also a big issue I have with thrown (though I haven't checked to see where IR puts it).
I've played through my run some more, though not an awful lot as I don't feel too hot. I'm definitely coming back to those Spirit Trolls soon, but for now I'm finishing off some minor side quests here and there as well as most of Ch3's main story (not the vampire assault though) to round up some XP and pad my levels to a bit more comfortable range.
As I mentioned earlier, I'm a bit conflicted about the crossbows. They do great damage, but freezing for 1.5s after each attack can be quite the detriment. I still haven't gotten to testing it with GWW (mostly because I'm lazy) but I suspect that reload will severely diminish its efficacy. If that is the case, I may have to reconsider my dual-range setup; either by getting another melee after all, or by switching to something more reliable like Short Bows, or doing something completely different like the aforementioned Thrown/Slings.
So far the only characters I am NOT considering for the chopping block are the Inquisitor and the Archer - ironically my only two non-duals. I've thought about thief again, for example, and perhaps I just don't need it after all. I'll have to see just how important Detect Illusions will turn out to be with an Inquisitor around I suppose, and whether IR has done something with items that are only available from pickpocket.
In general, it feels to me like NM is definitely putting more strain on the defenses of my party; no more glass cannon builds! But at the same time, high HP also means that damage remains VERY important. Killing things like mages etc. quickly seems to be a better solution to many fights rather than trying to outlast them with buffs/tanking etc. That in turn means I have to revisit things like Clerics, which are primarily there for the buffs. They may still be worth it, depending on makeup, especially since they do come with things like DUHM - and with longer fight duration, I may not want to lean too heavily on mage buffs alone.
Lots to find out, lots to discover! And that's not even touching upon things like CC, utility spells, summons, etc. which I have still on my list for testing. So little time, so much to do...
So, I decided to be NOT lazy for a change and actually test some things. Today it's all about RANGED!
#1 Thrown Weapons
I tested Dragon Tooth+3, which is the IR version of Fire Tooth (i.e. the throwing dagger, not Firetooth the Crossbow - and you wonder why the mod changed the name!).
Surprisingly, it appears that in IR, thrown daggers will NOT in fact receive STR bonus damage. I tested with various levels of STR, and it did not appear to influence the damage at all. That in turn means that thrown weapons are out of contention. The damage is simply not good enough.
#2 Slings
This was a bit weird. It seems that STR applies to *some* Slings, but not all. I tested the Erinne Sling+4 from IR, and it did NOT receive STR bonuses - the damage was fairly poor, though the proc was pretty funny... and 100% more than listed. It says 100 damage on the item, but dealt 200 each time. Bug @Demivrgvs ?
Next I tested Everard's Sling+5. This Sling for some reason DOES receive bonus STR damage, and that results in quite some throughput if you can pump up the APR. It dealt around ~45 damage at 21 STR, which is respectable.
Finally, I tested the Sling of Force+2. Now, this sling actually specifically states that it does add STR bonuses - which leads me to believe that the default behavior in IR is supposed to be NO STR on Slings, and this one does it as a bonus. Why Everard's Sling does it, too, I cannot say.
#3 Crossbows and GWW
This one ended up as I feared. The forced reload time on Crossbows with IR hurts their APR potential. Under GWW, I managed 5 shots in one round at best with Firetooth. That means that despite the high damage, Crossbows have trouble remaining competitive with Bows, as the damage per hit is already close: 17.5 for Firetooth+5 vs. 16.5 for Strong Arm+2 with Arrows+3 resp. 15.5 for Iron Bow of Gesen, and consider in this that Strong Arm can be bought immediately.
Now, of course SR does not feature double APR under Improved Haste (only +1), but it still means that any ranged utilizing GWW will want to avoid Crossbows at any cost. Since I most often use ranged on an Archer anyway, that is going to be a huge factor. I don't think I'll go with XBows for the time being. There are many really good Bows available, and it's much easier to kite with them, too.
Speaking of IH... While I of course had read the Spell Revisions changes, I probably underestimated the gravity of this particular one. Without IH doubling APR, APR loses relative value. APR is so damn powerful in BG2 in part because it counts double under IH - and now it doesn't. That means that losing APR is not that big a deal anymore, e.g. by not having access to Grandmastery. This in turn raises the value of multiclass characters, as one of the biggest issues with them was previously their lack of GM.
So, I think I'll have to apologize to @Tredvolt for dissing his R/C, and his lower APR setup in general. I completely forgot about SR's IH. Sorry! I'll also have to rethink my own setup, as dual > multi is in part motivated by GM. Things like F/M are a real consideration now, particularly for a ranged class as you can pick up the Elf racial bonus for Long Bows. R/C also becomes more interesting, though the druid spells are still not overly convincing.
I see that so many things have changed... This will take a while to get straight and optimize. I LOVE IT!
Character Discussion Time
Nightmare seems to heavily favor high damage throughput, safe characters. One of the criticisms of this sort of game difficulty is that it starts to diminish the value of damage spells that are more favorable in burst compositions and even buff spells that have limited durations. Regardless, it is what we are playing now so we'll continue and accept the environment of nightmare.
Ranged Damage dealers are in vogue and should go along with the theme of your previous post. My favored 4 member party has the following.
#1 ranger/cleric (2.5 apr base w/sling specialist) Often having 25 str between duhm and righteous, this character uses the best slings and GWW to get burst down on the most dangerous enemies. Since this is also my main tank, hes the first to switch from ranged and get in the face of the enemies that make it through the ranged onslaught or past my summons.
#2 fighter/thief (3.5 apr base w/firetooth+3) She wears the str belts and has a very high throughput. Early on she uses the boomerang dagger from the bridge and that is reasonable up until the underdark. I also max out GWWs for that burst.
#3 archer (5.0 apr tuigan 4.0 apr gesen) The archer also uses the apr gauntlets so bump that up a bit.
#4 bard (0 apr song bot)
SO... the point being I feel I've maxed out ranged damage power as the most efficient damage strategy for nightmare. Between IH for the archer and GWW uses for my other two characters, even things like dragons take 1000+ damage in just a couple rounds.
Now how can I transition to a 6 player strategy and what would be the best additions to my composition. On this subject I've carefully looked at the suggestions in this thread and others to find the best options. It is somewhat more difficult because many of the best weapons are already being used. I think this observation actually gives me the key to finding the best 5th and 6th slot.
What power-ranged weapons are not currently being used, and then what characters facilitate the best use of those weapons.
Candidates
Army Scythe
Strongarm
Tuigan (after main archer upgrades to gesen)
Tansheron
Firetooth+5
Due primarily to the time when these items are available I'm favoring Strongarm and Army Scythe. The crossbow user can later adjust over to firetooth if that makes more sense on math. The strongarm user can switch to tansheron for +3 damage and hoard special ammunition for TOB.
Now heres the not so great part. Having identified these item targets, we are left with deciding which classes best use them. It is at this point you might see the direction this is taking us. More archers.....
----------------------------------------------------
So to recap.
ranger/cleric - foa + best slings + best tanking gear
fighter/thief - boomerang into firetooth+3
archer #1 - tuigan into gesen
archer #2 - army scythe into firetooth+5
archer #3 - strongarm w/+3 arrows into tansheron if necessary
skald - for epic buffs
The comp throws out summons (skeletons or wand) or just has the ranger/cleric tank for fights less than 6 monsters. MEANWHILE the ranged damage dealers delete one by one every enemy.
The hardest part of the game is the beginning, which is where the archers are strongest. Perhaps this comp is a bit boring for some, but if I'm gonna tackle a max/min problem it seems that this would be my best choice.
Honorable mention fighter/mage/thief instead of fighter/thief does allow for more buffs late game and gives you a 2nd solid tank (and a better tank in general for dragons) but I'm not sure you'll need it -_-. It just takes forever even on nightmare to get everything you need. I also prefer white dragon armor vs asylferund.
Thrown Weapons
Daggers don't get STR dmg bonus because they already get +1apr. With STR dmg they would hugely outshine thrown axes, as well as the few returning hammers and spears.
Slings
I'm still torn about giving slings STR dmg bonuses. One hand I would, otoh I fear it would make them really too good considering they also leave a hand free to equipe IR's powerful shields. I'll try to handle the inconsistencies you noticed, but they are caused by EE imposing STR dmg (vanilla BG2 slings had no STR dmg).
Btw, the super slow weapon speed factor of IR's slings was added because I thought I was going to make them get STR dmg in exchange, but I was not convinced yet and didn't received enough feedback from players to truly decide.
Crossbows and GWW
The base idea was:
- xbows are better than bows on untrained hands
- bows are better than xbows if used by trained fighters
That's why IR's xbows are both more damaging (instead of 1d8 it's1d10 now, which is almost twice as much as bow's 1d6) and more accurate than before (they now get +1 attack roll bonus). The reload time is there exactly to cap max apr, not only for concept reasons. For those with only proficiency skill and low apr xbows are clearly the best pick, for specialized warriors with 2 apr both weapon types have pros and cons, while for weapon masters with 3+ apr bows are superior. GWW is clearly suited best to bows.
SR's Haste & Improved Haste
This tweak is still not set in stone. It was mostly done to fix haste's many issues (e.g. giving +1/2 apr instead of +1 in certain cases, causing 2x frequency on repeating EFFs, poison, regen, etc.) and rebalance both spells, but we are still testing them. As always, players feedback will play a decisive role to make me decide what to do.
I'm not sure how much ranged damage I want. While it's true NM by nature benefits avoidance-based approaches, ranged weapons do in the end deal less damage than melee - and something has to whittle down those NM HP. That being said it may very well be worth it to explore 3+ ranged setups. I'll have to think and do some math.
@Demivrgvs It's good to hear some of the thoughts behind the changes! I only wish I had the time to test your work more comprehensively and give deeper feedback... Sadly only one more day and then it's back to slavery
I like your reasoning behind XBows, and also the solution you came up with to cap APR. That's very good design. Since there isn't really a big reason to choose one type of ranged over the other for a GM'd user (they are all fairly equal in utility) it's entirely fine to just stick to bows. I was hoping to squeeze some juice out of the AoE damage of Firetooth+5, but more for personal enjoyment than anything else. Objectively speaking, your change makes a lot of sense.
On the Slings though I'm not sure I agree. The main reason is that unlike bows, they are SEVERELY lacking in special features because there are like 2 different types of special bullets (sun and smiting) and they are very limited in supply. That means that Slings remain fairly low in terms of effectiveness as their damage just doesn't grow well. I find the shield argument to be fairly minor. You're already at range and thus more protected, the actual impact of shield + sling should be basically negligible.
Even if you allowed STR bonuses to apply, all you'd end up with is damage comparable to a dagger (1d4+x), and equally suffering from issues of resistance (piercing/missile). No special abilities like you find on melee weapons, mediocre damage, oft-resisted damage type... I feel like that is enough of a drawback that you don't also need to leave out STR bonuses.
I feel like if anything, melee needs MORE competition, not less. Already the best way to deal damage is via melee weapons (for the most part, early/mid game Archers can compete), and melee weapons come with a ton of extras attached, too (immunities, special procs, etc.). Basically the only good Sling is Erinne Sling+4 (which I also love the design of btw!), all the others are fairly poor weapons, all things considered.
Of course I do also understand your position. If you let ranged get too close to melee in terms of throughput, then at some point you just want to range/kite everything because you lose so little damage for not having to stand there taking a full load in the face all the time. Very tough to balance.
I'll try and get some more testing in tomorrow and fiddle around with things more, both in terms of weapon types etc. and in terms of party composition. I feel like there are many things that can be explored still, real excited to see them!
Maybe continue there?
Party will consist of
Berserker 13(with SOD xp) -> Mage
Ranger / Cleric
Inquisitor
Archer
Thief -> Wild Mage (i know it´s not legit... but want to play neera)
sorc
What do you think? Is 3 Mages to spell heavy or does it lack tanky characters?
Greetz
So I don't see the problem
Although, I never got the point of playing SCS and the likes, if you diminish the added challenge by creating ubercheese parties. Kind of defeats the whole point. Parties like these are more for things like Tactics/Improved Anvil.
Wizard Slayer (with the WS rebalancing mod)
Blackguard (I was I chose the Cavalier, BG is not very impressive)
Fighter/illusionist
Ranger/Cleric (I enabled the druid spells, but I'm in Spellhold the III lvl of Watchers' keep and used them maybe once...)
Fighter/Cleric/Mage
Fighter/Thief/Mage
I installed Tactics and SCSII but i feel like the old Weidu components don't show up often and some battles are a breeze.
I don't use contigencies, just prebuffs in hellish fights such as Tor'Gal.
Is it ubercheese?
Your party looks solid enough. I assume it's not Nightmare Mode? That would explain why you find some battles super easy, a very aggressive playstyle can just allow you to steamroll many encounters in normal mode.
Interesting you went with a pure WS instead of a dual. Any specific reason behind that?
Is it even possible to make it through SCS + nightmare without a sorcerer & inquisitor?
Nightmare mode adds 12 levels to every enemy, triples HP, adds 80 HP on top of that, and gives them an extra attack per round. They also deal double damage. But I'm sure @Lord_Tansheron can confirm SCS and Nightmare mode are doable without a sorcerer or an inquisitor. I don't know if they use SCS much, but I've done okay in my incomplete NM SCS IR/SR runs, and I haven't used sorcerers or inquisitors.
NM changes many things, but less than you think. I find it a great addition, but mods are still required to make the game challenging in any way. SCS is non-negotiable. IR and SR I find a new paradigm that I would not do without anymore. NM just adds to that and gives some extra spice, as well as enforcing more diversity by making all the dumb right-click-attack-afk setups less viable.
Also I don't really have the whole game memorised good enough to remember which spell is essential to get through each stage, let alone double(or triple down) on the difficulty and cheese. I was stuck on the Spellhold Lich which you can't take down in a fair battle without Pierce magic.
Hide/Move however do seem to benefit from higher values, as they're subject to various penalties depending on the situation. Also you should just use Move Silently and pretty much ignore Hide in Shadows because of how it works (takes the average value of both to see if you can hide, but only uses Move value to see if you stay hidden).
If that is indeed how things still work, been a long time since I checked the details. Gods, I hate thieves
Above 100:
Pick Pockets: greater chance of success
Hide in Shadows: greater chance of success
Move Silently: greater chance of success
Detect Illusions: no change
Set Traps: no change
Open Locks: can pick a few more high-level locks
Find Traps: can disarm a few more high-level traps
It's more useful for stealth, since sunlight and the like impose penalties. For pickpocketing, opening locks, and finding traps, there's generally little point to having more than 100, as you can drink a potion for the few occasions in the game where you'll actually need above 100 to do what you're trying to do.
Hide in Shadows and Move Silently are fundamentally identical. Having 200 HS and 10 MS is no different from having 200 MS and 10 HS.
As far as I know there is no penalty that do more than halving your HiS / MS skills so 200/200 should be the cap for these skills and should allow you to always manage to hide.
2) is 200/10 better or worse than 105/105?