I don't think I remember ever encountering a lock that couldn't be opened with 100 in open locks. What locks in particular are you referring to? Do you remember?
No, not for locks. The example I was thinking of when I wrote that was actually a ToB trap that could only be disarmed with a much higher skill value. ToB also has a trap or two that can never be disarmed regardless of your skill level, though a high skill level can let you detect them. But I think there's at least one lock that also needs a skill above 100 to pick.
Still, a Potion of Master Thievery makes the difference moot. For most intents and purposes, 100 is the most we ever need.
From what I remember, the highest lock anywhere needs 95. But I may very well be wrong, I literally spent like 7 years running with 0 thieves in the group.
Question: Would an Enchanter be a useful pick for NM? Higher enemy levels means it's more difficult to get them to fail saves, but the specialist penalty to saving throws + greater malison + the built-in save penalty high level enchantment spells often have puts you in a decent position, and it seems like holds, confuses, and charms would be a reasonable way to mitigate the increased incoming damage (Note: I haven't played with SR, so if that radically changes those spells this assessment will probably be way off). Since damage spells from Invocation are less effective with the boosted HP, the restricted school doesn't hurt as much either.
Also another question, are SCS/Tactics/Ascencion bosses susceptible to penalties of Called shot, Soulreaver, Answerer and others? They certainly are immune to stun and vorpals.
are SCS/Tactics/Ascencion bosses susceptible to penalties of Called shot, Soulreaver, Answerer and others? They certainly are immune to stun and vorpals.
I've been following this thread for a looooong time, finally made an account so I could post a few things you guys are missing:
1) I agree Archers are great even into ToB, and the reason they hold their own is because of their "up time". Archers don't have to waste time running from target to target, if properly positioned they can just pivot and hit the whole room (especially with a Long Bow) which makes GWW much more efficient. The ranged resistances in the game are annoying, which is why I tend to make the Archer my PC so I can use Slayer in a pinch. The Moon Dog Figurine you get from the Ranger quest can also be relevant depending on group configuration (ie without a Cleric). Power Attack and Smite can be used to quickly peel mobs from across the room, giving your tank some breathing room to activate Hardiness and drink a potion when you're being overrun.
2) Regarding tanks, the main reason not to just run F->M or F/M is because your defenses will be dispelled at the worst time and you'll fold like warm laundry. There are also times when you can't use magic at all, so it's a good idea to have a more traditionally armored tank. There are two ways to approach building a tank:
a) Maximize AC to reduce how often you get hit, negate those hits with skins. (F/D, F/M, R/C) This style favors dual classing because you don't use Hardiness - you can use a +APR weapon and a more aggressive fighter kit. The downside is you never know when you'll run out of skins and get flattened out of nowhere.
b) Maximize resistance to reduce the size of hits, maximize HP to take the hits. (F/C, Barb, R/C) This style favors multi or single-class because Hardiness basically doubles your damage resistance. It sacrifices some damage output (Defender of Easthaven is a must in OH) and requires more maintenance (healing/potions) than type (a), but it greatly reduces your chance of being one-shotted and makes incoming damage more predictable. This approach to tanking is also the only way to make in-combat healing worthwhile, since each Heal is healing 180%-185% effective HP with Hardiness up.
Within this context, Berserker->Cleric goes from being one of the best tanks in SoA to being one of the worst in ToB because it misses out on 40% damage reduction via Hardiness. I don't think you guys give Berserker->Druid enough credit, with a little help from Belm and Improved Haste you can put out a lot of offensive pressure while being very hard to kill. It's especially good in a small group of 3-4. However, I prefer the (Dwarf) Barbarian. I don't mod classes so I don't dual into Cleric, but Barbarians have the most HP and get the same damage resistance as the other options. It's likely the best at type (b) tanking, and it conveniently makes use of an unused armor type.
3) Kensai->Druid is a thing! Consider making one instead of a second Kensai->Mage. They have nearly identical defenses and damage output, might as well have access to Druid spells.
4) Swashbucklers suffer from a high THACO more than anything else. They don't have anything better to do than spam WW so APR isn't really an issue. One way to offset this weakness is to dual into a Fighter, but another is to use The Equalizer in the OH. The THACO bonus is applied to both weapons.
For me, this is the optimal party: Archer Kensai->Mage (or Fighter/Illusionist) Kensai->Druid Barbarian
If I were to go up to 5-man I'd add a Swashbuckler for convenience, for a 6th it's hard to beat a Skald in terms of their overall damage contribution. The issue I had in the past was a lack of good items to spread around, so my Skald would end up wearing a bunch of random garbage to sit around and sing in. At that point it just feels like cheese, I think 3-4 is best.
You didn't specifically mention whether you are talking about LoB mode, or regular.
In regular, tanking is very inefficient. You can just kill everything so quickly it never really matters how much damage you take, and you can mitigate the few sources of high incoming pressure in other ways.
Also, the game is far less random in some respects than you may think. You don't get dispelled "out of nowhere", it's almost always entirely predictable who will do it, and even when. Dragons, for example, will dispel you as you engage them - so poke them with someone away from the party who's either unbuffed, or under Immunity: Abjuration. In other fights, dispels happen at specific times (like the 2nd City Ambush) and can either be interrupted or blocked by having the target run away from the party. Under Haste, you can actually make it quite some distance before the Dispel Magic "projectile" hits you.
The biggest advantage to having hybrid casters be the "tanks" is that you sacrifice virtually no offensive capability to do so. A Kensai -> Mage is already one of the most damaging characters, perhaps the most damaging if you account for buffs (especially Improved Haste), dispels (Breach etc.), and AoE. Whereas something like a Barbarian has clear offensive penalties (no GM) as a trade-off for more defense. It's also usually more effective to have several hybrids rather than the same number of pure classes of their respective roles (e.g. 2 K->M are better than 1 K and 1 M).
Druid I can never get behind. Could you illustrate what makes them so good in your opinion? To me, the only spell that I found useful from them is Iron Skins, while they lose out on quite some offensive capabilities (DuHM, RM compared to Cleric; IH and dispels compared to Mage). What is there that makes Druids attractive to you? I am not being sarcastic, I genuinely cannot figure out a proper use for Druid, and have been unable to for years.
In LoB mode, tanking does pick up in value considerably. Having access to Iron Skins as a F/D may very well end up worth it in that mode, but I have not had a chance to test that extensively yet. My few testing runs usually featured a F/C or R/C "tank", but my testing is very much incomplete. If you have some experience here, it could be valuable info! Though it may be better suited for the Nightmare Mode Thread. I'd love to test this out more, but sadly the new patch made LoB unplayable for now so we have to wait for a fix.
You've presented some interesting thoughts, but I cannot agree with your 3rd point where you said that Kensai->Druid and Kensai->Mage have "nearly identical defenses". In my opinion, it couldn't be farther from the truth. The only similar thing is Ironskins, which is way worse than Stoneskin, because of its cast time. After that you lose out on Mirror Image, Protection from Magical Weapons, and all spell defenses/dispel protections from Spell Immunity, Spell Trap, Spell Shield, Globe of Invulnerability, Spell Deflection/Turning. And I only listed personal protections, skipping things like Improved Invisibility, as that can be cast on your Kensai->Druid by someone else.
Also, it should be mentioned that Archer's uptime advantage described in your 1st point becomes less relevant as the game goes on, because a melee combatant with Boots of Speed and (Imp.)Haste can quickly zoom around the battlefield and lose almost no time getting into range. That's not anything against Archers really, as I'm a fan of them too, I just don't consider it that big of a deal. In my opinion it's much more relevant in BG1, in which you don't get access to more than one pair of Boots of Speed and you have to make due without Haste for quite a while.
It's true that swapping becomes less and less of an issue, but the ranged mobility of the Archer is absolutely a factor even late into the game. On LoB particularly I find myself stutterstep-kiting enemies a lot, which is a great way of effectively taking them (or at least their damage) out of the fight completely. It's micro-intensive, though, and can get real annoying real fast... ¬_¬
I'm a purist so I play the original game on insane without any mods.
Tanking happens in every game, you decide how effective you want to be at it. It's true that you can forego a dedicated tank, I've done it many times, but the absence is only masked by relatively overtuned damage. It's not an actual replacement for that role at all difficulties and fight durations, as you are seeing in LoB.
I know the RNG gods aren't smiting me with random Dispels, but for example during the Celestial Fury fight you don't have much opportunity to prevent it because of where you load in and the traps in your way. Really the main issue with Mage tanking is the UI, you can be one-shotted before you realize the mobs ate through your last skin.
The difference between ** and ***** is quite small in an unmodded game. I don't think it's fair to compare a Barbarian's damage output to a Kensai->Mage in the first place, nothing beats a Kensai->Mage and these classes occupy separate roles and make use of different items. However, the bonus stats from Barbarian rage have nearly the same impact as the lvl 9 Kensai perks and both classes can hit 10 APR so the disparity is not as great as you think. Critical Strike even compares favorably to Kai, should you use it. The effectiveness of dual classes is also in tension with long periods of ineffectiveness and babysitting, which is undesirable for a dedicated front-liner.
Druids, to me, are just Clerics that can use Belm and therefore sustain 10 APR with Improved Haste. Kensai->Druid is good for the same reasons as Kensai->Mage: armor spells and skins negate the Kensai's only weakness. Assuming you can cast Improved Haste on both, their damage will be identical. Having access to divine spells just gives you a few unique group buffs, some extra utility/summons, and Fire Storm/Implosion which ignore magic resistance. Supposedly Nature's Beauty can trivialize even dragon fights, though it doesn't seem to work properly for me. It's not much but I think it's better than being redundant. It's true that Druids miss out on some additional protections but there are trade offs - for example, Iron Skins (which is instant cast same as Stoneskin) can't be Breached, Barkskin scales well beyond Armor, and they get free elemental resistances at high levels. In my games I don't use a lot of Spell Deflection/Turning, Mantle, Globe of Invulnerability, etc. - I'll use Spell Immunity against Kangaxx and maybe keep PfMW memorized as a safety valve that almost never gets used. If I thought I'd miss anything it'd be Mirror Image, but in my testing my Kensai->Druids are fine without it and aren't a liability in any way (especially since I use a dedicated tank).
When it comes to Archers, the ability to stun/knockback from range is my primary strategic reason for including them. I'm just saying that, while their damage tapers off and they fall behind other classes on paper, they still manage to keep up overall because their rock bottom THACO and quick target switching means they land more attacks in your average fight.
In any case, Ironskins has a cast time of 9 in Baldur's Gate games. It has a cast time of 1 in Icewind Dale.
In unmodded EE the difference between Specialization and Grandmastery is 2 THAC0, 3 damage and 0/5 APR. I wouldn't say it's that small, but you probably mean unmodded vanilla BG2 in that case?
If you're playing without SCS and such mods, spell protections might indeed be less important, but at least Spell Immunity: Abjuration protects from an unexpected Dispel Magic, allowing you to keep your important buffs so you don't "fold like warm laundry" (nice way to say it, btw. :+) ).
I didn't really contest much else from what you said, but it strikes me as strange how you say Dual classing has a lot of downtime (when you can regain your inactive class pretty much instantly in case of a level 9 dual, if you time your quest rewards/scroll scribing etc. properly), but at the same time talk about HLAs so much, where it is THEM that require a significant time to get to. Like your comment about Swashbucklers APR not being a problem when spamming WW. Well, you need those 3 million experience points before you can think about using WW once, let alone having other stuff too.
As a general note, I feel a bit weird reading discussions like those where most participants seem to plan for the endgame, when I feel it's the easiest time in a playthrough. In ToB you have all your gear, all the spells - so many options to completely destroy encounters. The most difficult for me is that early-midgame type of state, where you don't have your tools yet, but encounters start becoming tough. Talking from a full SCS perspective, though.
As a general note, I feel a bit weird reading discussions like those where most participants seem to plan for the endgame, when I feel it's the easiest time in a playthrough. In ToB you have all your gear, all the spells - so many options to completely destroy encounters. The most difficult for me is that early-midgame type of state, where you don't have your tools yet, but encounters start becoming tough. Talking from a full SCS perspective, though.
This is definitely my experience as well. But as you said, it may be because of SCS; I don't remember much from before SCS times.
The unmodded game is quite easy to seasoned powergamers. That in turn means you can do pretty much whatever you like, and still DESTROY enemies left and right. Many of the finger distinctions and min/max margins don't actually have a meaningful effect on low difficulties. You are so super effective that gaining small percentages is hardly even relevant. But as you crank up the difficulty via mods etc., you will notice more and more minor differences adding up.
I'm playing the original game mostly, I only have EE on my phone.
Iron Skins is definitely instant cast in my game (although the in-game description says 1 round). I even hopped on an old saved game to verify it so I wouldn't embarrass myself lol. In the example I used for getting dispelled (Celestial Fury fight) I didn't have Spell Immunity yet, so that wouldn't have helped. There are also times when you can't use magic at all. In truth, the dispellable buff issue is actually secondary to the skin tracking issue for me, I just lump them together mentally as "necessary defenses suddenly disappearing".
Generally when I think of these dual classes, I think in terms of dualling at 13 for the extra 1/2 APR. Sorry if that's confusing, I suppose 9 becomes the de facto level to dual at in EE when you can get an extra 1/2 APR from GM. Not sure if that's better or worse for overall balance though...
Swashbucklers keep pace fairly well in SoA thanks to their weapon selection and kit bonuses, it's only when you start doubling APR with Improved Haste that their handicap is magnified. In my games, by the time I'm using arcane spells again, HLAs are just around the corner anyway. If you fix the THACO limitations of being a Thief and using WW instead of GWW, a Swashbuckler can be consistently powerful through the whole game (output equal or better than an Archer or Inquisitor) without having to dual into a Fighter.
I get the impression you "seasoned powergamers" don't think what I say is worth much because I don't run SCS. I've tinkered with SCS in the past but didn't like some of the bugs and crashes I was getting (I made it to the Mind Flayer capture and ran into a dialogue bug that I couldn't get around). You should know, though, that most of my understanding of mechanics, spell usage, min/maxing, and group composition comes directly from the SCS-playing community, since that is where most of the theorycrafting happened over the last decade. You don't have to keep pointing out how much easier the original game is, I'm currently soloing Ust Natha with an Assassin.
@PixelW: I would strongly recommend trying out SCS. Soloing the vanilla game poses a lot of interesting challenges, but the general consensus within the community is that the most interesting--not the most difficult necessarily, but the most interesting--gameplay comes from SCS. It makes the enemies act a lot smarter and use some spells and tricks that vanilla enemies never do. Also, it's known for being very fair--it doesn't give enemies unrealistic abilities and immunities, like most mods do.
Some of the install options are crazy difficult (like the Improved Bodhi component, spellcasting demi-liches, and especially the universal enemy pre-buffing option), but if you just install the basics, it doesn't throw all the nasty dirty tricks at you all at once.
But for what it's worth, even the original game is quite challenging, and I think old-timers like us tend to forget what it's like to not have been playing the same game for 16 years.
As I said, I did try SCS and made it pretty far into the game. That was many years ago, there may have been some updates, but for me the enhanced gameplay wasn't enough to risk another playthrough bugging out. Truth be told I did a full reinstall and realized I was missing a disk, so I bought a downloadable version from GoG.com which comes with its own weird modding conflicts and quirks that I'd rather not delve into.
I've been playing this series since BG1 came out, I always hoped for more (official) content but I've never been completely bored with it. It has a ton of replay value and nostalgia for me as is, and I enjoy creating my own challenges.
SCS is perhaps *the* premier mod for BG at this point. Rest assured that a whole team of people are very much on top of any possible issues that could crop up at this point. I have personally not encountered any bugs playing with SCS, even of a minor sort; let alone something game-breaking like dialog freezes.
For me, SCS is a mandatory mod. I would not, COULD not, play the game without it anymore. I cannot stress enough how much I recommend it.
Tactics also has pretty sweet fights but at some point you are tired of enemy wizards casting a sequencer: great malision, chaos, chain lightning. The Darnise keep is just BRUTAL with its super-invisible-strength-drainig-priest trolls.
Honestly, Tactics spirit trolls may just be some of the most dangerous enemies in the game, all things considered; that is, if you actually go to DAK or Druid Grove early on and don't leave them for later. Later they're cake.
@PixelW druid in a powergaming setting? This class is awful, there is nearly no way to make this class work. Druids have the best 7 lvl spells and everything else is mega meh.
I'm pondering a gnome cleric/thief with a twist for a small party. The twist is the Robe of Vecna, kundane and Scarlet ninja-to. The problem is that the SCS ToB enemies tend to have those shady invisibility purging scripts. Is there a way to remove those?
What I do want to test one day is a Wizard Slayer 9 -> Druid dual, just for Fire Seed blanketing with spell failure. Not sure it's worth it, but sounds worth exploring at least.
@PixelW druid in a powergaming setting? This class is awful, there is nearly no way to make this class work. Druids have the best 7 lvl spells and everything else is mega meh.
I'm pondering a gnome cleric/thief with a twist for a small party. The twist is the Robe of Vecna, kundane and Scarlet ninja-to. The problem is that the SCS ToB enemies tend to have those shady invisibility purging scripts. Is there a way to remove those?
Druids in terms of power gaming would be most effective in BGEE right? I mean the werewolf form/spirit animals from either kits seem their most strongest during the first series but in BG2EE they seem to fall off whether the enemies just scale too well and the kits don't offer much improvement later on.
Werewolf kit > Totemic druid in terms of scaling for BG2EE and powergaming.
Questions: I need help with my party Will be using SCS, Ascension, Rogue Rebalancing and maybe Refinements (and maybe some other mods) Not necessarily on >hard, as I still play it primarily for the story ^^ And I'm still undecided how much of Ascension I will install... How horribly hard is it for semi-casual players?
Party:
Gnome Fighter/Illusionist S17 D18 E18 I17 W16 C17 (imported from BG1 with a super lucky 103 roll after 2 hours) (tomes not yet incorporated; may 'use' them on the others ^^ )
Rasaad Sun Soul Monk 16 16 14 11 14 14 (will probably improve them slightly...)
Imoen 9 18 16 17 11 16 Skald for strong Remove/Dispel Magic and perma-buffs and such Or would you advise against it? (If, then what should I do with her? Sorcerer?)
Nalia 14 18 16 17 9 13 Thief->Mage but which thief kit if one at all??? Thief primarily for locks/traps, probably for illusions and maybe for setting traps (So not above lv9, probably lv6)
Mazzy 15 18 16 10 13 14 Fighter/Cleric multi or pure cleric but if, then which kit??? Or maybe even Paladin? (again: which kit?) supposed to be buffer/off-tank or something ^^ (may alter her stats accordingly)
Sarevok 18/00 17 18 17 10 15 Do I even need another warrior-type? If I do, Blackguard? Berserker? If not, what should I do? Sorcerer? Cleric/Mage? (May then switch roles with Charname ^^ )
Want to finally play SCS and Ascension, and take my favorite NPCs along, but don't want to fail as hard as I did the last time xD (BG2 Thief Stronghold was my downfall - with Swash, Minsc, Jaheira, Nalia changed to sorcerer, Korgan and Aerie)
Imoen 9 18 16 17 11 16 Skald for strong Remove/Dispel Magic and perma-buffs and such Or would you advise against it? (If, then what should I do with her? Sorcerer?)
I personally do not like Sorcerers because they lack efficient, easy-to-use damage output. Skald can be beneficial in a full party and add up to quite some damage - provided you actually run 5 other physical damage dealers. With 4 I don't think it's worth it.
Nalia 14 18 16 17 9 13 Thief->Mage but which thief kit if one at all??? Thief primarily for locks/traps, probably for illusions and maybe for setting traps (So not above lv9, probably lv6)
Traps are useless except for Time/Spike Trap, which are HLAs. If you want to dual a low Thief, go for Lock/Trap/Illusion above all else. As for the kit, Assassin can work fine, though you may want to adjust the dual level around certain breakpoints of PW usage and/or BS multiplier. Swashbuckler is also an option, sort of a weak F/M with lockpicking.
Mazzy 15 18 16 10 13 14 Fighter/Cleric multi or pure cleric but if, then which kit??? Or maybe even Paladin? (again: which kit?) supposed to be buffer/off-tank or something ^^ (may alter her stats accordingly)
If you go Paladin, Inquisitor is the obvious choice. It's very powerful. F/C is fine, but Berserker9->Cleric is likely better in this setup.
Sarevok 18/00 17 18 17 10 15 Do I even need another warrior-type? If I do, Blackguard? Berserker? If not, what should I do? Sorcerer? Cleric/Mage? (May then switch roles with Charname ^^ )
Can never have enough fighter-types in my book :P Blackguard is a fine choice, or you could just go for another mage dual (Kensai9->Mage or Berserker9->Mage). Cleric/Mage I really dislike because it's such a flimsy character with little consistent throughput.
I also recommend Archer, if you can fit it somehow.
Which 2 from the following list: Berserker Blackguard Fighter/Cleric multi Inquisitor Cavalier Archer And which one of these 2: Sorcerer Fighter/Mage multi
First batch I'd say Archer for sure. Way too good not to have one. Other can be anything, Inquisitor without LoB and SCS nerf will probably roflstomp all mages.
Second batch F/M for sure. Hate Sorcerer in party games.
Neither Revision mod is installed. Would it make much a difference? (Wont install them any way, just curious ^^) Cleric isn't important for that party I guess? (I don't think so at least) Why do you not like Sorcerers in parties?
Comments
200/10 = 105/105 = 105% chance of success.
@jinxed75 this is just an old myth.
Still, a Potion of Master Thievery makes the difference moot. For most intents and purposes, 100 is the most we ever need.
Also another question, are SCS/Tactics/Ascencion bosses susceptible to penalties of Called shot, Soulreaver, Answerer and others? They certainly are immune to stun and vorpals.
edit: it is a real thing
1) I agree Archers are great even into ToB, and the reason they hold their own is because of their "up time". Archers don't have to waste time running from target to target, if properly positioned they can just pivot and hit the whole room (especially with a Long Bow) which makes GWW much more efficient. The ranged resistances in the game are annoying, which is why I tend to make the Archer my PC so I can use Slayer in a pinch. The Moon Dog Figurine you get from the Ranger quest can also be relevant depending on group configuration (ie without a Cleric). Power Attack and Smite can be used to quickly peel mobs from across the room, giving your tank some breathing room to activate Hardiness and drink a potion when you're being overrun.
2) Regarding tanks, the main reason not to just run F->M or F/M is because your defenses will be dispelled at the worst time and you'll fold like warm laundry. There are also times when you can't use magic at all, so it's a good idea to have a more traditionally armored tank. There are two ways to approach building a tank:
a) Maximize AC to reduce how often you get hit, negate those hits with skins.
(F/D, F/M, R/C) This style favors dual classing because you don't use Hardiness - you can use a
+APR weapon and a more aggressive fighter kit. The downside is you never know when you'll run
out of skins and get flattened out of nowhere.
b) Maximize resistance to reduce the size of hits, maximize HP to take the hits.
(F/C, Barb, R/C) This style favors multi or single-class because Hardiness basically doubles your
damage resistance. It sacrifices some damage output (Defender of Easthaven is a must in
OH) and requires more maintenance (healing/potions) than type (a), but it greatly reduces your chance
of being one-shotted and makes incoming damage more predictable. This approach to tanking is also
the only way to make in-combat healing worthwhile, since each Heal is healing 180%-185% effective
HP with Hardiness up.
Within this context, Berserker->Cleric goes from being one of the best tanks in SoA to being one of the worst in ToB because it misses out on 40% damage reduction via Hardiness. I don't think you guys give Berserker->Druid enough credit, with a little help from Belm and Improved Haste you can put out a lot of offensive pressure while being very hard to kill. It's especially good in a small group of 3-4. However, I prefer the (Dwarf) Barbarian. I don't mod classes so I don't dual into Cleric, but Barbarians have the most HP and get the same damage resistance as the other options. It's likely the best at type (b) tanking, and it conveniently makes use of an unused armor type.
3) Kensai->Druid is a thing! Consider making one instead of a second Kensai->Mage. They have nearly identical defenses and damage output, might as well have access to Druid spells.
4) Swashbucklers suffer from a high THACO more than anything else. They don't have anything better to do than spam WW so APR isn't really an issue. One way to offset this weakness is to dual into a Fighter, but another is to use The Equalizer in the OH. The THACO bonus is applied to both weapons.
For me, this is the optimal party:
Archer
Kensai->Mage (or Fighter/Illusionist)
Kensai->Druid
Barbarian
If I were to go up to 5-man I'd add a Swashbuckler for convenience, for a 6th it's hard to beat a Skald in terms of their overall damage contribution. The issue I had in the past was a lack of good items to spread around, so my Skald would end up wearing a bunch of random garbage to sit around and sing in. At that point it just feels like cheese, I think 3-4 is best.
In regular, tanking is very inefficient. You can just kill everything so quickly it never really matters how much damage you take, and you can mitigate the few sources of high incoming pressure in other ways.
Also, the game is far less random in some respects than you may think. You don't get dispelled "out of nowhere", it's almost always entirely predictable who will do it, and even when. Dragons, for example, will dispel you as you engage them - so poke them with someone away from the party who's either unbuffed, or under Immunity: Abjuration. In other fights, dispels happen at specific times (like the 2nd City Ambush) and can either be interrupted or blocked by having the target run away from the party. Under Haste, you can actually make it quite some distance before the Dispel Magic "projectile" hits you.
The biggest advantage to having hybrid casters be the "tanks" is that you sacrifice virtually no offensive capability to do so. A Kensai -> Mage is already one of the most damaging characters, perhaps the most damaging if you account for buffs (especially Improved Haste), dispels (Breach etc.), and AoE. Whereas something like a Barbarian has clear offensive penalties (no GM) as a trade-off for more defense. It's also usually more effective to have several hybrids rather than the same number of pure classes of their respective roles (e.g. 2 K->M are better than 1 K and 1 M).
Druid I can never get behind. Could you illustrate what makes them so good in your opinion? To me, the only spell that I found useful from them is Iron Skins, while they lose out on quite some offensive capabilities (DuHM, RM compared to Cleric; IH and dispels compared to Mage). What is there that makes Druids attractive to you? I am not being sarcastic, I genuinely cannot figure out a proper use for Druid, and have been unable to for years.
In LoB mode, tanking does pick up in value considerably. Having access to Iron Skins as a F/D may very well end up worth it in that mode, but I have not had a chance to test that extensively yet. My few testing runs usually featured a F/C or R/C "tank", but my testing is very much incomplete. If you have some experience here, it could be valuable info! Though it may be better suited for the Nightmare Mode Thread. I'd love to test this out more, but sadly the new patch made LoB unplayable for now so we have to wait for a fix.
You've presented some interesting thoughts, but I cannot agree with your 3rd point where you said that Kensai->Druid and Kensai->Mage have "nearly identical defenses". In my opinion, it couldn't be farther from the truth. The only similar thing is Ironskins, which is way worse than Stoneskin, because of its cast time. After that you lose out on Mirror Image, Protection from Magical Weapons, and all spell defenses/dispel protections from Spell Immunity, Spell Trap, Spell Shield, Globe of Invulnerability, Spell Deflection/Turning. And I only listed personal protections, skipping things like Improved Invisibility, as that can be cast on your Kensai->Druid by someone else.
Also, it should be mentioned that Archer's uptime advantage described in your 1st point becomes less relevant as the game goes on, because a melee combatant with Boots of Speed and (Imp.)Haste can quickly zoom around the battlefield and lose almost no time getting into range. That's not anything against Archers really, as I'm a fan of them too, I just don't consider it that big of a deal. In my opinion it's much more relevant in BG1, in which you don't get access to more than one pair of Boots of Speed and you have to make due without Haste for quite a while.
Tanking happens in every game, you decide how effective you want to be at it. It's true that you can forego a dedicated tank, I've done it many times, but the absence is only masked by relatively overtuned damage. It's not an actual replacement for that role at all difficulties and fight durations, as you are seeing in LoB.
I know the RNG gods aren't smiting me with random Dispels, but for example during the Celestial Fury fight you don't have much opportunity to prevent it because of where you load in and the traps in your way. Really the main issue with Mage tanking is the UI, you can be one-shotted before you realize the mobs ate through your last skin.
The difference between ** and ***** is quite small in an unmodded game. I don't think it's fair to compare a Barbarian's damage output to a Kensai->Mage in the first place, nothing beats a Kensai->Mage and these classes occupy separate roles and make use of different items. However, the bonus stats from Barbarian rage have nearly the same impact as the lvl 9 Kensai perks and both classes can hit 10 APR so the disparity is not as great as you think. Critical Strike even compares favorably to Kai, should you use it. The effectiveness of dual classes is also in tension with long periods of ineffectiveness and babysitting, which is undesirable for a dedicated front-liner.
Druids, to me, are just Clerics that can use Belm and therefore sustain 10 APR with Improved Haste. Kensai->Druid is good for the same reasons as Kensai->Mage: armor spells and skins negate the Kensai's only weakness. Assuming you can cast Improved Haste on both, their damage will be identical. Having access to divine spells just gives you a few unique group buffs, some extra utility/summons, and Fire Storm/Implosion which ignore magic resistance. Supposedly Nature's Beauty can trivialize even dragon fights, though it doesn't seem to work properly for me. It's not much but I think it's better than being redundant. It's true that Druids miss out on some additional protections but there are trade offs - for example, Iron Skins (which is instant cast same as Stoneskin) can't be Breached, Barkskin scales well beyond Armor, and they get free elemental resistances at high levels. In my games I don't use a lot of Spell Deflection/Turning, Mantle, Globe of Invulnerability, etc. - I'll use Spell Immunity against Kangaxx and maybe keep PfMW memorized as a safety valve that almost never gets used. If I thought I'd miss anything it'd be Mirror Image, but in my testing my Kensai->Druids are fine without it and aren't a liability in any way (especially since I use a dedicated tank).
When it comes to Archers, the ability to stun/knockback from range is my primary strategic reason for including them. I'm just saying that, while their damage tapers off and they fall behind other classes on paper, they still manage to keep up overall because their rock bottom THACO and quick target switching means they land more attacks in your average fight.
In any case, Ironskins has a cast time of 9 in Baldur's Gate games. It has a cast time of 1 in Icewind Dale.
In unmodded EE the difference between Specialization and Grandmastery is 2 THAC0, 3 damage and 0/5 APR. I wouldn't say it's that small, but you probably mean unmodded vanilla BG2 in that case?
If you're playing without SCS and such mods, spell protections might indeed be less important, but at least Spell Immunity: Abjuration protects from an unexpected Dispel Magic, allowing you to keep your important buffs so you don't "fold like warm laundry" (nice way to say it, btw. :+) ).
I didn't really contest much else from what you said, but it strikes me as strange how you say Dual classing has a lot of downtime (when you can regain your inactive class pretty much instantly in case of a level 9 dual, if you time your quest rewards/scroll scribing etc. properly), but at the same time talk about HLAs so much, where it is THEM that require a significant time to get to. Like your comment about Swashbucklers APR not being a problem when spamming WW. Well, you need those 3 million experience points before you can think about using WW once, let alone having other stuff too.
As a general note, I feel a bit weird reading discussions like those where most participants seem to plan for the endgame, when I feel it's the easiest time in a playthrough. In ToB you have all your gear, all the spells - so many options to completely destroy encounters. The most difficult for me is that early-midgame type of state, where you don't have your tools yet, but encounters start becoming tough. Talking from a full SCS perspective, though.
The unmodded game is quite easy to seasoned powergamers. That in turn means you can do pretty much whatever you like, and still DESTROY enemies left and right. Many of the finger distinctions and min/max margins don't actually have a meaningful effect on low difficulties. You are so super effective that gaining small percentages is hardly even relevant. But as you crank up the difficulty via mods etc., you will notice more and more minor differences adding up.
Iron Skins is definitely instant cast in my game (although the in-game description says 1 round). I even hopped on an old saved game to verify it so I wouldn't embarrass myself lol. In the example I used for getting dispelled (Celestial Fury fight) I didn't have Spell Immunity yet, so that wouldn't have helped. There are also times when you can't use magic at all. In truth, the dispellable buff issue is actually secondary to the skin tracking issue for me, I just lump them together mentally as "necessary defenses suddenly disappearing".
Generally when I think of these dual classes, I think in terms of dualling at 13 for the extra 1/2 APR. Sorry if that's confusing, I suppose 9 becomes the de facto level to dual at in EE when you can get an extra 1/2 APR from GM. Not sure if that's better or worse for overall balance though...
Swashbucklers keep pace fairly well in SoA thanks to their weapon selection and kit bonuses, it's only when you start doubling APR with Improved Haste that their handicap is magnified. In my games, by the time I'm using arcane spells again, HLAs are just around the corner anyway. If you fix the THACO limitations of being a Thief and using WW instead of GWW, a Swashbuckler can be consistently powerful through the whole game (output equal or better than an Archer or Inquisitor) without having to dual into a Fighter.
I get the impression you "seasoned powergamers" don't think what I say is worth much because I don't run SCS. I've tinkered with SCS in the past but didn't like some of the bugs and crashes I was getting (I made it to the Mind Flayer capture and ran into a dialogue bug that I couldn't get around). You should know, though, that most of my understanding of mechanics, spell usage, min/maxing, and group composition comes directly from the SCS-playing community, since that is where most of the theorycrafting happened over the last decade. You don't have to keep pointing out how much easier the original game is, I'm currently soloing Ust Natha with an Assassin.
Some of the install options are crazy difficult (like the Improved Bodhi component, spellcasting demi-liches, and especially the universal enemy pre-buffing option), but if you just install the basics, it doesn't throw all the nasty dirty tricks at you all at once.
But for what it's worth, even the original game is quite challenging, and I think old-timers like us tend to forget what it's like to not have been playing the same game for 16 years.
I've been playing this series since BG1 came out, I always hoped for more (official) content but I've never been completely bored with it. It has a ton of replay value and nostalgia for me as is, and I enjoy creating my own challenges.
For me, SCS is a mandatory mod. I would not, COULD not, play the game without it anymore. I cannot stress enough how much I recommend it.
I'm pondering a gnome cleric/thief with a twist for a small party. The twist is the Robe of Vecna, kundane and Scarlet ninja-to. The problem is that the SCS ToB enemies tend to have those shady invisibility purging scripts. Is there a way to remove those?
Werewolf kit > Totemic druid in terms of scaling for BG2EE and powergaming.
Sarevok - (Converted to Berserker with EE Keeper)
Caelar Argent (With Holy Avenger)
Haer'Dalis
Viconia
Edwin
Sideboard - Imoen, just for open locks.
I need help with my party
Will be using SCS, Ascension, Rogue Rebalancing and maybe Refinements (and maybe some other mods)
Not necessarily on >hard, as I still play it primarily for the story ^^ And I'm still undecided how much of Ascension I will install... How horribly hard is it for semi-casual players?
Party:
Gnome Fighter/Illusionist S17 D18 E18 I17 W16 C17 (imported from BG1 with a super lucky 103 roll after 2 hours) (tomes not yet incorporated; may 'use' them on the others ^^ )
Rasaad Sun Soul Monk 16 16 14 11 14 14 (will probably improve them slightly...)
Imoen 9 18 16 17 11 16
Skald for strong Remove/Dispel Magic and perma-buffs and such
Or would you advise against it? (If, then what should I do with her? Sorcerer?)
Nalia 14 18 16 17 9 13
Thief->Mage but which thief kit if one at all??? Thief primarily for locks/traps, probably for illusions and maybe for setting traps (So not above lv9, probably lv6)
Mazzy 15 18 16 10 13 14
Fighter/Cleric multi or pure cleric but if, then which kit??? Or maybe even Paladin? (again: which kit?)
supposed to be buffer/off-tank or something ^^ (may alter her stats accordingly)
Sarevok 18/00 17 18 17 10 15
Do I even need another warrior-type? If I do, Blackguard? Berserker? If not, what should I do? Sorcerer? Cleric/Mage? (May then switch roles with Charname ^^ )
Want to finally play SCS and Ascension, and take my favorite NPCs along, but don't want to fail as hard as I did the last time xD (BG2 Thief Stronghold was my downfall - with Swash, Minsc, Jaheira, Nalia changed to sorcerer, Korgan and Aerie)
Thanks in advance!
F/C is fine, but Berserker9->Cleric is likely better in this setup. Can never have enough fighter-types in my book :P Blackguard is a fine choice, or you could just go for another mage dual (Kensai9->Mage or Berserker9->Mage). Cleric/Mage I really dislike because it's such a flimsy character with little consistent throughput.
I also recommend Archer, if you can fit it somehow.
Full Ascension and SCS install, insane
Thief(6)->Invoker (keepered)
Skald
Fighter(7)->Avenger (keepered)
and now the questions...
Which 2 from the following list:
Berserker
Blackguard
Fighter/Cleric multi
Inquisitor
Cavalier
Archer
And which one of these 2:
Sorcerer
Fighter/Mage multi
First batch I'd say Archer for sure. Way too good not to have one. Other can be anything, Inquisitor without LoB and SCS nerf will probably roflstomp all mages.
Second batch F/M for sure. Hate Sorcerer in party games.
Cleric isn't important for that party I guess? (I don't think so at least)
Why do you not like Sorcerers in parties?