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powergaming party (BG2 TOB,NPC and multiplayer)

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  • BaldurspawnBaldurspawn Member Posts: 66
    CrevsDaak said:

    comebackhome
    Aside from weapons, I never think about that in advance, whatever strikes my fancy, I guess ^u^
    As I still cant seem to figure out how to make a Cavalier tanky in SCS, I consider a pure Spellsword party just for the heck of it xD Maybe adding an Archer/Cleric (with bows, thanks to some mod... dunno which) for flavor...

    Kensai9-Mage =Mace/Shortsword
    Blade =Longsword/Scimitar
    Berserker9-Mage =Halberd/Twohander
    Swashbuckler9-Mage =Quarterstaff
    Fighter/Illusionist =Warhammer/Flail
    Archer9-Cleric =Shortbow
    I somewhat doubt that this setup needs any equipment at all xD

    I'd suggest giving daggers/scimitars to the Swashmage and Longswords/Axes to the Blade (otherwise you won't have anyone using the Axe of the Undying, and you can find magical throwing axes pretty early on in BG2 to leave your Blade out of danger until it become tankier). Also, for the Kensage I'd suggest Bastard Swords instead of Shortswords (because in ToB, Foebane > all).
    Why would I use Daggers in a powergaming party???

  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,153

    CrevsDaak said:

    comebackhome
    Aside from weapons, I never think about that in advance, whatever strikes my fancy, I guess ^u^
    As I still cant seem to figure out how to make a Cavalier tanky in SCS, I consider a pure Spellsword party just for the heck of it xD Maybe adding an Archer/Cleric (with bows, thanks to some mod... dunno which) for flavor...

    Kensai9-Mage =Mace/Shortsword
    Blade =Longsword/Scimitar
    Berserker9-Mage =Halberd/Twohander
    Swashbuckler9-Mage =Quarterstaff
    Fighter/Illusionist =Warhammer/Flail
    Archer9-Cleric =Shortbow
    I somewhat doubt that this setup needs any equipment at all xD

    I'd suggest giving daggers/scimitars to the Swashmage and Longswords/Axes to the Blade (otherwise you won't have anyone using the Axe of the Undying, and you can find magical throwing axes pretty early on in BG2 to leave your Blade out of danger until it become tankier). Also, for the Kensage I'd suggest Bastard Swords instead of Shortswords (because in ToB, Foebane > all).
    Why would I use Daggers in a powergaming party???
    Because:
    1) Using a Throwing Dagger in your main hand with Belm in your off-hand gives you 4 ApR without buffs.
    2) Swashbucklers don't have any other realiable methos to raise their ApRs.
    3) Firetooth+3 deals 2d4+3 damage and because it is a Throwing Dagger it gives you 2 base ApR.
    4) There aren't any other better options for Swashmages. Fully buff a Swashmage with this build and you'll understand.
    5) You can use the Throwing Dagger in ranged combat without having wasted proficiency points.
    6) Staves (your suggestion) are *useless* on Swashmages, first because they can't backstab, second because their only use would be using WW with the Staff of the Ram+6, which is something any Warrior class can pull off.

    Blackraven
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,456
    @Baldurspawn I don't think clerics can use shortbows

  • pixie359pixie359 Member Posts: 251
    I might well be an idiot, but can you use speed weapons and throwing daggers at the same time? If so, is that new?

  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,153
    @pixie359 after patch 2.3, you can if the throwing dagger is set to melee.

  • BaldurspawnBaldurspawn Member Posts: 66
    @CrevsDaak Ah, that makes sense ^^ useless in the final battle, but otherwise nice thing (though you could consider it exploit, which doesn't bother me) :smiley:
    Also, for some reason I read "Fluffy buff" x'D

    CrevsDaak
  • King_NothingKing_Nothing Member Posts: 26
    edited February 2017
    Could use a bit of feedback on the party im thinking on creating. Would be starting it in bg 1 so i get a chance to try out siege of dragonspear. Which would screw up a few dual options since xp in SOD is 500k.

    Thinking about a
    Sorc, i like them. I can see from this thread that people prefer having more kensai/mages over sorcs

    Inquisitor, it might not be the strongest late game option. But it is very strong for most of the games. 2 Single classes also help during dual time.

    Ranger7/Cleric dual. Might chance it to berserker for quicker dual and rage. Is druid spells worth anything? Using mace/warhammers. It is a bit awkward to dual it at 7, since i won't get the ranger back untill SOD. But i guess i can kill Sarevok with a cleric level 7 in the party.

    Kensai9/mage. The good old classic powergaming char. Will use long and short sword. To get the ekstra apr from kundane. Why do people dual at level 9? I can see the point in level 13, but i would have to wait a long time to get the kensai class back, you need 2.75m xp. Also level 9 is in the middle of SOD and i won't get the kensai back untill i hit the cap in SOD, which might be anoying. What to people think? Could also make it a berserker instead of kensai, since it is a lot stronger before dual. And rage is still good to have later on.

    fighter/mage multi. I somewhat like this class since you get a chance to use fighter HLA. Is it strictly worse than a kensai/mage? Using flail/schimitars and maybe katanas for some part of the game.

    Swash5/fighter. Im really not sure about this last char. I really hate playing without anyone to remove traps and open locks. It also gives alot of xp in bg2. But the char just seem like a plain fighter, which is not good for powergaming. But i can't see any other way to get a theif in the party, also i want to dual it quite quickly so i get these theiving abilitis. And alternative could be a fighter/theif multiclass. How do other people get a theif in a powergaming party? Im using Bastardswords and ninja-tos on this one. Again for the extra APR.

    Im always playing with scs, ascension and some minor tweaks like potion stacking.

  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,456
    @King_Nothing FMT multi is the power gamer thief of choice

  • King_NothingKing_Nothing Member Posts: 26
    Why is that? Mainly tried them when i was solo'ing. They seem to level way too slow and don't get the best spells. Might have missed something

    CrevsDaak
  • BaldurspawnBaldurspawn Member Posts: 66
    @King_Nothing
    If you play BG1 with SCS, I would definitely go for Inquisitor and F/M multi in the party.

    In my last playthrough, I specced my elven F/M to longbows and she destroyed Sarevok and cohorts. I was so baffled by that that I tried to solo him right after and it ended up being my first attempt at soloing a boss and a succesful one at too xD

    The Inquisitor helps against mages and sirens among others and it will stay at least useful forever.

    My Ranger/Cleric dual wasnt that impressive in BG1 (cant comment much on them for BG2) but my Multi R/C was the best tank I ever had in scs-BG1, where imho tanks are a lot more useful than in BG2...

    Swashbucklers are good enough in BG1 to not keep falling on their face all the time, so I would actually keep him pure until early BG2 and then dual him into Mage. It won't be as powerful as any fighter/mage combo, but sturdy enough so that you don't need to worry about it too much and you have all your thieving needs covered which is always nice.

    Get a Berserker for later in BG2 to dual to Mage or Cleric as they are far stronger at the beginning than Kensais (they can wear armor and such and their Rage gives them +2 attack/hit which the kensai won't get till lv6)

    I filled the last slot with Skald, more because I like bards from a RP-perspective than powerplay ^^

  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,456

    Why is that? Mainly tried them when i was solo'ing. They seem to level way too slow and don't get the best spells. Might have missed something

    @King_Nothing They are basically a FT with added mage spells. Yes, the price is leveling a bit slower but you still get enough THAC0 and thief skills to be very useful both in combat and out. Plus mislead back stabs is among the highest sustainable dps

  • King_NothingKing_Nothing Member Posts: 26
    ah thx, think i will try that one. And then use a berserker9or13/mage to make bg1 and SOD alot easier

  • BaldurspawnBaldurspawn Member Posts: 66
    @King_Nothing for Berserker the difference between 9 and 13 isn't as 'big' as for the Kensai, so I would pick 9 for convenience sake ;)

  • King_NothingKing_Nothing Member Posts: 26
    Yea, think that would make up for an easier run overall. Im still not sure about level 9, since it would make have a single class mage most of SOD, untill i get to the cap limit.

    Have any of you toyed around with level 1 npc mod? It makes up for some real powergaming, since Edwin still have his amulet and viconia is still a drow with 50% MR.

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,198
    edited February 2017
    Don't dual Fighter at 13 pretty much ever. There may be some weird solo/duo setup where it MIGHT be an optimal choice, but for the vast majority of setups it will end up too steep a cost for what you get out of it.

    Can't say how things play from lvl1 with powergaming exactly, as I pretty much don't play BG1 anymore, only BG2. I imagine there would be some fairly significant differences, though. Could be tricky to evaluate a full saga run because of the various different demands made by the respective parts. Does seem, though, that Archer is the one class pretty much universally ridiculous across the board.

    NPC-specific bonuses is something I like to toy around with once in a while. It's the one area I may indulge in an RP concession or two at times, such as giving Aerie +10 slashing resistance.
    Among the stock NPC "bonuses", Edwin is pretty high up the list. His amulet is extremely powerful, though I don't find it gamebreakingly OP as I'm not prone to abusing spell slots via things like Wish resting etc. which would undoubtedly make it even more ridiculous.
    There's some other NPC items that are also quite good, though, particularly if you're fiddling with NPC classes. Jansen's armor on a tank, for example (stacking damage resistance). Also mods may shift things around, e.g. Keldorn's sword is very powerful with IR installed and actually has few rivals in early/mid game.

    There's obviously no silver bullet solution to the "perfect" party, as people have vastly different setups, styles, and preferences. For me personally, the only truly non-negotiable class I've really found during my last few playthroughs has been the first Archer. Everything else (including a second Archer) has been tried, replaced, retired, and brought back countless times. I'm still not satisfied with the amount of LoB testing I've managed to get in, and this will likely keep me messing around with setups for literal years to come.

  • KloroxKlorox Member Posts: 827
    zur312 said:

    so i was thinking of the whole damage reduced from things like
    barbarian levels
    jan's armor
    defender of eastheaven
    cleric's armor of faith
    no stacking of hla's or armor of faith

    full barb
    45% natural damage reduction
    20% defender of eastheaven
    40% hla ability
    =105%!

    fighter(ranger)/cleric
    20% defender of eastheaven
    25% armor of faith
    40% hla ability
    =85%

    fighter/thief
    25% jan's armor
    20% defender of eastheaven
    40% hla ability
    =85%

    thief/cleric -> i know it is not good but
    25% jan's armor
    20% defender of eastheaven
    25% armor of faith
    =70%

    barb15/cleric (mods)
    15%natural
    20%defender of eastheaven
    25% armor of faith
    =60%

    full fighter
    20% defender of eastheaven
    40% hla ability
    =60%

    berserker7/9/13/15/thief
    25% jan's armor
    20% defender of eastheaven
    =45%

    full barb looks pretty good but he will be only hacking and slashing and that's not fun

    fighter/thief and fighter/cleric looks good too

    but who has the most 'power"?

    A little necromancy here, but I remember recently seeing a breakdown of a dwarf defender on here. Add in that defender of easthaven and you may give that barbarian a run for his money!

  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,809
    Thread necromancy indeed; this thread ended over half a year ago.

    For the record, note that while Jan's armor does grant 25% damage resistance, it can no longer be used by anyone but Jan in EE, even if you're playing a Chaotic Neutral gnomish illusionist/thief or a character with Use Any Item, as EE added a new opcode to prevent that from happening.

    Also note that the Wish spell can cast Hardiness on the whole party. Last I checked, this ability erroneously stacks, unlike normal EE Hardiness.

  • KloroxKlorox Member Posts: 827
    edited September 2017
    Necromancy or not, this thread is gold.

    I'm a huge fan of four person parties. Since my only access to this game is on my iOS iPhone, and I'm unwilling to jailbreak it, I'm stuck playing vanilla (but I do like jacking up the difficulty as much as possible).

    I'm thinking the best party for me is as follows:

    1) Elf FMT (Flail of Ages/ Scarlet Ninja-To)
    2) Human kensai 13/ mage (Axe of Unyielding/ Kundane)
    3) Jahiera (Spectral Brand/ Belm)
    4) Keldorn (Carsomyr)

    Character 1 has gotten a bit of a bad rap in this thread, but I disagree. First of all, the argument has been made many times over that XP shouldn't really matter in a powergaming discussion, so who cares if we have a triple classed character? Additionally, the only reason we really need a thief is for UAI and the Scarlet Ninja-To. So if I'm still good there. I also need a good character to do some heavy lifting after Character 2 swtiches classes. It'll be nice to really not worry about locks, traps, and have some fun planting my own traps and backstabs too. Thirdly, while I know this character will never learn 9th level spells, I'm ok with that. The mage aspect of this character is just there as a bonus.

    Character 2 has been done over a million times in this thread, and is widely accepted as the most powerful character possible. I gave the most powerful character what I view as the most powerful weapon. I'll try to sneak some mace points in there so he has a blunt weapon and a good one against undead.

    Character 3 is found in the starting dungeon. Sure, I could've gone with my own fighter/divine spellchucker, which could've been a bit better, but Jahiera is pretty damn good and I have more than enough STR boosting gear to make her viable. She also has great dialogue and some side quests. I will make sure character 1 is female because I don't like the romances (I liked them initially but I don't want to be bothered now).

    Character 4, just like Jaheira above, could be made more powerful if I roll stats and all that. But I kind of like Keldorn. Honestly, the only thing pulling me to making him myself is the idea that I'd have him in the starting dungeon. He's going to learn quarterstaff for a blunt option when needed.

    I'd love to hear some feedback on this party. TIA!


    EDIT EDIT EDIT

    Now that I can dual a barbarian into a cleric or thief, I need to totally re-evaluate things.

    Do I go for thief and try to get huge immunities (15 barbarian + Jan's armor + Defender of Easthaven), or do I enjoy his natural immunities and go with the Flail of Ages and Defender of Easthaven for a great tank?

    Post edited by Klorox on
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,198
    I would suggest taking this to the LoB powergaming thread, which has basically become the main PG discussion thread. No need to revive dead threads that have been supplanted with the advent of LoB.

  • morpheus562morpheus562 Member Posts: 44
    Looking to resurrect this thread since I do believe it has its own place separate from the LoB thread. I view both as two different beasts that require different strategies and party compositions to tackle and powergame. I've been a big fan of running EETrilogy with SCS on insane mode. I gave IRR and SRR a good college try, but going into how they are setup on the backend made me to decide to uninstall them.

    I've been big on powergaming the entire trilogy for my playthroughs. This is starting as a level one in Candlekeep all the way to the end of ToB. With this mindset, I do believe it changes party dynamics since low levels and item restrictions have to be considered, and total end game power isn't the end all be all.

    For my current playthrough, I am running:
    (Main) Kensai (13) -> Mage using warhammer
    (Minsc) Kensai (9) -> Mage using longsword
    (Dynaheir) Sorcerer
    (Jaheira) Cleric/Ranger using flail
    (Khalid) Archer using longbow and shortbow
    (Viconia) FMT using scimitars

    Kensais
    So, lots of reasons why for each of these classes in this playthrough. Normally, I'm all about the dualing at level 9 lifestyle, but because it's the entire game and I'm not playing with any xp caps, I can afford the higher level dual. This also gives a gap so there will always be one Kensai class active while the other is dualing.

    Sorcerer
    Honestly, I really do not like this class, but it is the only one guaranteed to get breach in BG1. I find this necessary in BG1 due to PfMW encountered in NTotSC mod and the final SCS insane Sarevoc fight. I tried Inquisitor, but their dispell is too unreliable at this lower level. In BG2, I will do a party shuffle and pick up Keldorn to have an Inquisitor, but for the first half I have to rely on Sorcerer. They do get Melfs Minute Meteors (a 5 APR ranged attack) which is nice at early levels.

    Cleric/Ranger
    This is my go-to divine class next to FMC. I like the Cleric/Ranger for full access to both Cleric and Druid spells (skins and insects). I don't like running two triple classes, and I'm already running enough arcane classes, so I went with the Cleric/Ranger.

    Archer
    This is a staple of all of my builds. It is great at the early levels and stays consistent throughout. I view this as a "timer" class where my Kensais are more "switches". The archer will provide consistent, reliable damage due to their incredible Thaco, thus putting the enemy on a timer before they are killed. Kensais will have more lights out (like a light switch) hits that turn off/chunk the enemy.

    FMT
    This is my go-to thief build. I hate thieves and honestly wish the game allowed bards (looking at you skald) the ability to disarm traps and open locks. Sadly, the earth isn't perfect so I'll run a FMT. Good jack-of-all trades build with arcane defenses, decent offense, and quality of life abilities to pick locks and disarm traps.

    Inquisitor
    Another staple of my builds. I don't think it shines in BG1 like BG2, so I leave it out for the first half. After a party reshuffle will pick one up in BG2. This is the only party class change that I have throughout my BGEET playthrough. Dispell Magic is awesome in BG2 to take down enemy defenses NOW.

    Honorable mentions:
    Skald - I love this class, but with SCS, and their IWD spells included, both divine and arcane have the ability to cast long duration spells that block all the nasty side effects that enhanced skald song protects against. -5 Thaco and +5 damage from enhanced skald song vs Inquisitor/Archer build? I vote skald off the island.

    Monk - I want to make this work for end game power, but they are just too weak at lower levels. Sorry, but no.

    So far in my playthrough I leveled up my Kensai to level 6 quick then started picking up my companions. Game automatically levels companions to max level 6 in BGEE, so we start off pretty good. I pick up Neera temporarily so I can run her quest. Hers is one of two quests that guarantee drop the stoneskin scroll which allows my Kensai(9)->Mage and FMT to both run skins in BGEE. Once completed, I drop her and pick up Viconia to finish up the party for this section of the game. So far all is good and will post status updates as I progress.

    Blackraven
  • morpheus562morpheus562 Member Posts: 44
    edited January 7
    Beat BGEE yesterday with a couple restarts on the final boss, but otherwise the playthrough is going well. Toughest parts were the first encounter with Sirines and killing them before they charm my party, SCS druids in the Cloakwood, and some of the more difficult fights within NTotSC. I'm going to do a shameless plug for my scripts located here which made a big difference and improved ease of use throughout.

    Both Kensai's are rocking it and equipped with Ashideena+2 and Viscona+2. Not much difficulty with keeping either alive despite not having armor. Cleric/Ranger is using a nice +2 flail from NTotSC while the FMT is running one of the two available +3 scimitars. Rounding it out is the Archer with the Longbow of Marksmanship and the Sorcerer is doing well at keeping enemy protections down and pelting enemies at range with 5APR Melf's Minute Missiles.

    Started SoD last night, and it reminds me how much I dislike the expansion. Hopefully, I can trudge through it quickly enough and get into BG2EE.

    Post edited by morpheus562 on
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,809
    A lot of stuff in SoD is skippable. The game can be beaten pretty quickly if you're not going through all of the side content.

  • morpheus562morpheus562 Member Posts: 44
    A lot of stuff in SoD is skippable. The game can be beaten pretty quickly if you're not going through all of the side content.

    Very true, but I'm more of a completionist and have to do everything that I can. I finished SoD last night, and overall there were no hickups to complete. The Kensai dualing at level 13 was having some survivability issues, but definitely manageable and able to work around. Final boss required only one reload to beat and all characters had natural +3 weapons which are required to hit him.

    Overall, very excited to take this party into BG2EE.

    Blackravensemiticgoddess
  • histamiinihistamiini Member Posts: 1,425
    Power gaming party? Six Sorcerers. At level 31 they can link 7 Simulacrums each, so you could have at the same time no less than 48 Sorcerers on the field. :D
    46p01c5phrdw.png

  • morpheus562morpheus562 Member Posts: 44
    histamiini wrote: »
    Power gaming party? Six Sorcerers. At level 31 they can link 7 Simulacrums each, so you could have at the same time no less than 48 Sorcerers on the field. :D
    46p01c5phrdw.png

    Holy micromanagement Batman! By the time you finish selecting what spells all 48 characters will cast in the first round, most parties should be done or near done with the fight. Not to mention that True Sight will knock out every single one of those Simulacrums leaving you with only 6 Sorcerers.

    Additionally, it will be very hard to distribute gear between 6 Sorcerers unless you are using EEKeeper to import gear. You only get one Robe of Vecna, Amulet of Power, etc. This will leave most of your Sorcerers massively under geared compared to the others. Its not the most gear dependent class, but something to consider. Also, quality of life is going to be no bueno. Traps and locks can be worked around, but not as easily as having a thief type. Similarly, having no divine spells for healing or restoration is something to consider. You can carry around potions and Restoration scrolls, but it won't be as effective as having a dedicated cleric type.

    histamiini
  • histamiinihistamiini Member Posts: 1,425
    edited January 21
    @morpheus562 Yeah that wasn't really serious answer. But lv31 Sorcerer clones can cast 9th level spells, so you could just Time Stop all day long.

    If I wanted management friendly party I would probably just take 6 Cavaliers with the best immunities.

    morpheus562
  • SouplesseSouplesse Member Posts: 131
    I know I know this is a sub for total power gaming but I don’t like creating 6 characters in BG... IWD is here for a reason ....
    You can do something pretty good with the canon party (or kinda) actually it’s not a scoop btw :
    - charname kensai9 or 13 dual mage Crom/kundane or Celestial fury (with item upgrade)/kundane
    - Jaheira fighter/Druid multi club+5(detonation or item upgrade)/belm
    - Minsc ranger 9 or 13 dual cleric Foa/Doe
    - Keldorn Inquisitor with Caso
    - Imoen thief dual mage with short bow
    - Sarevock fighter13 dual mage with what ever you want two handed sword or a classic AoU/Crom
    This team is very effective in my point of view and lovely to play with!

  • jmerryjmerry Member Posts: 1,703
    That has ... problems.

    For one, how exactly are you dual-classing Minsc? He has 6 wisdom.

    Sarevok, dual-wielding? He starts with all of his proficiencies up to level 15 invested in two-handed weapons. If you dual-class him immediately when you get him (level 17), that's another 3 million experience before he gets his fighter abilities back. He can reach mage level 25 by the experience cap, but that's still only five total proficiency points earned, and only two of them can be invested in anything but mage weapons. So no, you're basically stuck with two-handed swords as the only good option.

    While most of this thread is focused on a simple "what party kills enemies fastest and safest" question, I prefer more constrained optimization. For example, my current run is an answer to "How do I kill as many enemies as I possibly can with fire? Literally?" Since most of the good fire spells are party-unfriendly, this means I need to protect my own party from them, as well as recruiting people who can cast the spells ...

  • SouplesseSouplesse Member Posts: 131
    @jmerry

    No of course this isn’t perfect! You have to tweak the game a bit ... for Minsc, the dual part isn’t mandatory but an half Druid seems pretty low to cover all the needs or maybe not.
    I play with a mod (don’t remember if it in SCS or tweak) that allow npc to has the same amount of xp approx than charname when they join the party and you choose everything like start prof or class.

    After years... I don’t mind tweak the game a bit like some npc’s classes or weapon proficiency...

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