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Over/Under-rated NPCs

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  • KilivitzKilivitz Member Posts: 1,459
    edited April 2013
    From a gaming perspective, there are no bad characters. As long as you cover all the necessary classes (warrior, wizard, rogue and priest), any party combination is good enough to beat the game with.

    Except that in videogame adaptations of D&D, you probably don't want to replace your thief with a Bard, because they can't open locks or disarm traps, and the game will not account for a missing Thief the way a human DM could.

    And of course, certain NPCs are a bit more powerful, but as I just stated, there are no characters that will end up gimping your party.

    Now on to some comments:
    Quartz said:

    Minsc - He's a cliché who stops being funny, fast. But people think he's hilarious.

    Cliché? Really? I can't think of too many characters in other fantasy stories that have characters like him, can you point out some? It's not a rhetorical question, by the way. I like him, every great story needs a little comic relief and that's what he's there for.
    Quartz said:

    BG1 Viconia - She actually kinda sucks in BG1 but people act like she's godly. Dunno where people get this idea.

    I always found her very effective as a Cleric. But I agree that much of the love she gets is due to her BG2 version. As much as a like her, you can't deny there's a bit of fan service going on with her looks and attitude. Write her out of the game and the risqué factor drops to almost zero.
    Quartz said:

    Skie - She would be held up as extremely powerful were it not for Imoen being added at the last minute. Essentially Nalia's Beta, BioWare could've really expanded upon her character, too... So unfortunate.

    I have never had Skie in my party. Not once. Not for a minute. And that's because not only you can only get her by taking another character's sidequest but it also comes up rather late in the game. So even if Imoen wasn't there, I'm not sure if she would be that much more popular. I guess Safana would end up filling those shoes.
    Quartz said:

    Anomen - How dare he be a realistic, ROUNDED character and have flaws! GRR!! Really people?

    Anomen is very well-written. I just think he's rather annoying.
    Kaeloree said:

    Cernd is by far the most under-rated NPC in the series. His banters are hilarious. He's by far one of the funniest characters in the game, with a subtle humor that unfortunately most people never see because they never bother taking him.

    The problem with Cernd isn't really Cernd. It's Jaheira.
  • ArcalianArcalian Member Posts: 359
    I always liked Xzar and Montaron. Still do. And I like Safana. Yes, I know she's a manipulative skank; that's WHY I like her. She can manipulate me all she wants.

    I like Imoen. I don't so much like Khalid as it is that I feel sorry for him. I wish he had lived and Jaheira had died, put it that way.

    And Baeloth is freaking awesome.
  • dstoltzfusdstoltzfus Member Posts: 280
    @Kilivitz, Viconia has 50% magic resistance and 19 dexterity. 15 wisdom for a cleric NPC is good too; you can get her early and she's the only pure evil cleric (Tiax is late, multi, and slightly not as good in the wisdom department with 13). Yes, there are a lot of fan boys about her being a drow elf, but her core attributes speak for themselves.
  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    @dstoltzfus - He's an elf, so he gets a racial bonus with swords. He's pretty good with Varscona.
  • KilivitzKilivitz Member Posts: 1,459
    edited April 2013

    @Kilivitz, Viconia has 50% magic resistance and 19 dexterity. 15 wisdom for a cleric NPC is good too; you can get her early and she's the only pure evil cleric (Tiax is late, multi, and slightly not as good in the wisdom department with 13). Yes, there are a lot of fan boys about her being a drow elf, but her core attributes speak for themselves.

    For the record, I completely agree with you. But as far as characterization goes, in BG1 she's not played as a seductive quasi-dominatrix or whatever as much as an abrasive, fish-out-of-water drow. So if you leave her stats out of the equation, I still think much of the love she gets is retroactive, so to speak.

    @KidCarnival isn't Tiax a Gnome? Or are you referring to another post of his?
  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    I meant Kivan.
  • KilivitzKilivitz Member Posts: 1,459
    Oh, right! Sorry.

    Kivan kicks ass, by the way.
  • AlexisisinneedAlexisisinneed Member Posts: 470
    edited April 2013
    Even if Naila is your poor man's Imoen she really does make a good back up mage for Imoen. You could also say she's better than Edwin because when she's not casting spells she's firing her bow. Also she can use identify. It really frustrates me that Edwin can't identify anything! Plus you get her a lot sooner than Edwin. You have to do majority of the Shadow thieves quest in order to have him join you and you can't do that long list of quest without some kind of mage so who you going to take Aerie? She's cute and all but her duel class prevent her from being a powerful mage by herself she needs to be pared up with someone else like Naila or pc mage
  • MilesBeyondMilesBeyond Member Posts: 324
    Lemernis said:


    Similarly, Faldorn is actually a strong character. She is probably almost never used, though. Usually the player settles on another healer before chapter 4.

    Also, she left a bad taste in people's mouths because pre TotSC (and possibly even pre Tutu/EE, depending on who you ask) Druids just weren't very good. Really the only thing they had going for them was Call Lightning, and how many difficult battles were outside? I can't think of any.

    Now, with EE/Tutu, obviously the tables have been turned a bit. However, there's still the issue of the fact that she's pretty out of the way. I don't think I've ever even found her except for when I'm specifically looking for her. I can't even remember which screen she's on.

    Alora and Skie have the same failing. For the former, you've got to visit the Hall of Wonders, which I rarely do, specifically at night. For the latter, you've got to visit the NW section of BG, which hasn't got very much at all and is likely completely out of your way otherwise, with Eldoth in your party - a Ch 4 NPC. They're just shy of being easter eggs LOL

  • Aasimar069Aasimar069 Member Posts: 803

    Lemernis said:

    Underrated

    Garrick, although oft maligned, when put to full use is actually a valuable character if only you use him well.

    Don't use him as a meleer. Forget about his stats. They don't really matter. Use him in ways that he can actually contribute:

    Throughout the game you come across a ton of wands. (You're also soon swimming in cash, so you can buy some for him too, if need be.) The wands are powerful. Have him use them!

    You also acquire a lot of spell scrolls, far more than you will ever need to scribe. Maybe not all of them are useful--but a lot of them are. Have Garrick cast them from a quickslot. This of course in addition to his memorized spells.

    Give him the Light Crossbow of Accuracy, and he gets two attacks per round with it. When Hasted or with Oil of Speed he's spraying bolts with it like a machine gun. Bolts of biting are especially powerful weapons.

    Very soon Garrick identifies virtually every item. This alleviates a lot of hassle and saves gold.

    You can use Garrick's pickpocketing ability to pinch Drizzt's swords (although I realize that's a controversial subject), Algernon's cloak, and whatever else. Have him actually use Alergnon's Cloak once daily. The Charm spell is one of the most powerful in the game.

    And finally, Garrick can use Gregan's Harp, an extremely powerful magical item.

    Mind you, all this would be true of any bard. But still.

    I read this and say to myself, wouldn't a wizard, just about any wizard at all, be able to do the same thing (except the thieving abilities, but then why not have a thief to do that)? And if I am going to have both a wizard and a thief in my party anyway, do I really want another character to fill that function who isn't as good at either wizardry or thieving?

    Edwin or Dynahir, or Xzar are all better wand users than Garrick. And although they can't use the Xbow of speed, they have other ways of contributing to combat. I'd much rather have a fireball or skulltrap at the ready than the Xbow of speed. Or give that Xbow to kagain?

    And with the plethora of thieves in the game, why need another character who can fill that function? Imoen is great as a thief. As is Montaron. And they have better stats and can provide varyingly better degrees of combat efficiency without needing something special like the xbow of speed.

    Oh, and I can probably count on one hand the number of times I have paid to identify something. If the Lore isn't high enough, memorize the 1st level spell while the clerics are healing up the rest of the party.

    Just saying that 'For me', not enough gain for what you have to sacrifice. But then that is simply my opinion.


    Yes, Dualed Imoen can do both the mage part and the thieving part ^^

    Thief 5 (or 6) gives enough points to give enough find trap and pickpocket abilities (in worst cases, drink a potion if you don't want to reload !).

    Thief 5 is reached VERY quickly.
  • Aasimar069Aasimar069 Member Posts: 803
    edited April 2013

    @Kilivitz, Viconia has 50% magic resistance and 19 dexterity. 15 wisdom for a cleric NPC is good too; you can get her early and she's the only pure evil cleric (Tiax is late, multi, and slightly not as good in the wisdom department with 13). Yes, there are a lot of fan boys about her being a drow elf, but her core attributes speak for themselves.

    Magic resistance in vanilla BG is crappy (yes vanilla BG - the only true canon BG). There are only an handful of fights where MR is useful, and when you want to heal hear, she will resist healing xD

    Yeslick and Branwen have 16 WIS. The have 15 CON and better strength and DEX.

    Sorry but she sucks. a lot.


    PS : I do not consider BGtutu or BGT canon because they have messed a lot with the original encounters.

    Seriously Semaj casting Greater malisson then flesh to stone (that hit all your nearby characters !!!) when you party is so at low level is completely insane.

    I just ctrl +y him si that I could focus on other enemies.

  • The_Shairs_HandbookThe_Shairs_Handbook Member Posts: 219
    edited April 2013
    hmmm Safana and shar-teel.... best npc in bg for me.... I'm always weak for the bad girls... sadly there ain't any bad girls in bg2 and safana gets betrayed by the big bad wolf... Still i'm hoping and dreaming that she is a BG 2 EE exclusive follower with romance options (plus hopefully she get stats boost as all other Bg1 npcs got in Bg2)

    and shar-teel... dmn she's bad bad girl... want her more hahahaha.....
    Viconia... she's simply wanna be evil (or good)... never seen her as the sexy noughty bad girl (thats Safana) or Tough rough bad girl (Shar-Teel)
    Bg2 feels so empty without them (for me that is) and most of the time i just quit playing as soon as the I reach outside of the first dungoun (my male charname feels so lonly without his hot nougty bad girls followers) .....

    (morgaine and Isabela are my favorite hot bad girls in dragon age games....) :(

    and about their stats in Bg1 not bad.. i would say...but is could been better... if they ever show up in bg2 ee i do hope they get stats boost as all other followers from bg1 got in bg2
  • Aasimar069Aasimar069 Member Posts: 803

    hmmm Safana and shar-teel.... best npc in bg for me.... I'm always weak for the bad girls... sadly there ain't any bad girls in bg2 and safana gets betrayed by the big bad wolf... Still i'm hoping and dreaming that she is a BG 2 EE exclusive follower with romance options (plus hopefully she get stats boost as all other Bg1 npcs got in Bg2)

    and shar-teel... dmn she's bad bad girl... want her more hahahaha.....
    Viconia... she's simply wanna be evil (or good)... never seen her as the sexy noughty bad girl (thats Safana) or Tough rough bad girl (Shar-Teel)
    Bg2 feels so empty without them (for me that is) and most of the time i just quit playing as soon as the I reach outside of the first dungoun (my male charname feels so lonly without his hot nougty bad girls followers) .....

    (morgaine and Isabela are my favorite hot bad girls in dragon age games....) :(

    and about their stats in Bg1 not bad.. i would say...but is could been better... if they ever show up in bg2 ee i do hope they get stats boost as all other followers from bg1 got in bg2

    Safana has finally met a "badder" character than her ;-)

    The wheel turn they says.
  • The_Shairs_HandbookThe_Shairs_Handbook Member Posts: 219
    @Aasimar069
    Noooooooouuuuuuu.... Give me back my sexy noughty pirate babe back :D
  • dstoltzfusdstoltzfus Member Posts: 280
    ...@Aasimar069, this is where *speechless* would go. Let me be clear, I have no particular opinion of Viconia other than her stats. I cannot see fictional female characters in a...robust and personal manner...as @The_Shairs_Handbook does (actually, it is a *very* alien way of thinking to me).

    That said, 19 dex makes her an amazing ranged specialist with a sling and gives her enough AC to tank in a pinch (especially with a potion of fortitude). The difference between 15 and 16 wisdom is nil. I suppose you can talk about "vanilla BG" as cannon all you want, but EE is the cannon now and this is the EE forums. Personally, I think the improvements they have made have VASTLY improved the game. Improving the difficulty is *definitely* a good thing. SCS is leagues better than regular EE as well.

    There is nothing "cannon" with BG as for as D&D anyway, insomuch as it doesn't follow PnP rules (for good reasons that have been beat to death on other threads).

    To the point: Viconia, in my opinion, has stats (Dex, MR) that make her better than other clerics. Wisdom is moot (unless you compare her with Tiax, in which she is somewhat negligibly better). Strength is nearly meaningless except to carry things for a cleric.
  • The_Shairs_HandbookThe_Shairs_Handbook Member Posts: 219
    edited April 2013
    hmmm... in Bg2 Viconia has 18 in wis and in Bg1 she has 15... she is much much better cleric in Bg2..... it's little bit hard then to compare her bg2 version with the other divine spellcaster of bg1 (Yeslick, Branwen, Faldorn, Quayle or Tiax)... only follower you could compare her with are in bg2 is Aerie (she got lots of spells per day to cast that her strong point), Jaheira (her strong point is that she is better fighter than Viconia), Anomen (not really good his cleric...his cleric thaco will win in the end over his fighter thacho), Cernd (eh... we don't need to talk about Cernd... his too weak.... but Jaheira eeehum... adores his strength),

    as you see most of the divine spellcasters of bg2 are unique in there own way and the players play style and likeness will make him to chose wich ever follower they prefer and fancy as their own divine spellcaster follower...
    Viconia is good cleric... as is most of the other clerics in bg2 (there are exceptions ;) )

    If Yeslick, Branwen, Faldorn, Quayle or Tiax ends up as exclusive Bg2 ee new follower thery would probebly get new uniqe interesting powers that would make them to shine and stand out from the rest of the bg2 followers... but as it is as now I would say it is somehow unfair to compare newer upgraded editions followers of bg2 with bg1 followers mostly because their stats are not upgraded to bg2 version....
  • dstoltzfusdstoltzfus Member Posts: 280
    @The_Shairs_Handbook, we are discussing BG1. I don't see the different stats as being a big deal between BG1 and 2, since we get tomes in 1 and characters change over time anyway. For all we know, Viconia traveled with charname and received all 3 wisdom tomes. I'm sure "tomes" exist outside the context of charname's adventure and "characters'" stats can change over time.
  • The_Shairs_HandbookThe_Shairs_Handbook Member Posts: 219

    @The_Shairs_Handbook, we are discussing BG1. I don't see the different stats as being a big deal between BG1 and 2, since we get tomes in 1 and characters change over time anyway. For all we know, Viconia traveled with charname and received all 3 wisdom tomes. I'm sure "tomes" exist outside the context of charname's adventure and "characters'" stats can change over time.

    Then it is my mistake... I was thinking (somehow missread it) we were comparing all npc followers in entire Bg universe :)
  • dstoltzfusdstoltzfus Member Posts: 280
    @The_Shairs_Handbook, the overall thread is. The Viconia conversation is only referring to BG1.
  • Aasimar069Aasimar069 Member Posts: 803

    ...@Aasimar069, this is where *speechless* would go. Let me be clear, I have no particular opinion of Viconia other than her stats. I cannot see fictional female characters in a...robust and personal manner...as @The_Shairs_Handbook does (actually, it is a *very* alien way of thinking to me).

    That said, 19 dex makes her an amazing ranged specialist with a sling and gives her enough AC to tank in a pinch (especially with a potion of fortitude). The difference between 15 and 16 wisdom is nil. I suppose you can talk about "vanilla BG" as cannon all you want, but EE is the cannon now and this is the EE forums. Personally, I think the improvements they have made have VASTLY improved the game. Improving the difficulty is *definitely* a good thing. SCS is leagues better than regular EE as well.

    There is nothing "cannon" with BG as for as D&D anyway, insomuch as it doesn't follow PnP rules (for good reasons that have been beat to death on other threads).

    To the point: Viconia, in my opinion, has stats (Dex, MR) that make her better than other clerics. Wisdom is moot (unless you compare her with Tiax, in which she is somewhat negligibly better). Strength is nearly meaningless except to carry things for a cleric.

    The difference between 15 and 16 WIS is far from being nil for one single reason : 16 WIS + 3 from books allows more bonus spells (and most important level 4 spells).

    Which in fact means Yeslick can be a better cleric than Viconia even with one less level and can also fit in other roles.

    The same goes for Branwen.
  • Aasimar069Aasimar069 Member Posts: 803

    @The_Shairs_Handbook, we are discussing BG1. I don't see the different stats as being a big deal between BG1 and 2, since we get tomes in 1 and characters change over time anyway. For all we know, Viconia traveled with charname and received all 3 wisdom tomes. I'm sure "tomes" exist outside the context of charname's adventure and "characters'" stats can change over time.

    No she either gained wisdom during her travel outside (during the events of Bg1 and Bg2) or the developpers decided that her wis stat was to low.

    Because in my games I have never gave to her any wis books ^_^ (so she could not have received them from me lol)

  • DrugarDrugar Member Posts: 1,566
    Kaeloree said:

    Cernd is by far the most under-rated NPC in the series. His banters are hilarious. He's by far one of the funniest characters in the game, with a subtle humor that unfortunately most people never see because they never bother taking him.

    I took him once, had him for a few hours but got rid of him because I really couldn't find a way to deal with him. His shapeshifting wasn't that useful, his lack of armour meant he died often and pure druid levels meant he couldn't hit things with a big stick either.
    I'll take him again on my next run, but Shadowkeeper him into a Fighter/Totemic Druid instead, he'll be more useful in the group and I get to enjoy his banters.
  • dstoltzfusdstoltzfus Member Posts: 280
    @Aasimar069:

    With no tomes of wisdom:

    15: +1 2nd level spell and +5 lore for both.

    With all three 3 tomes of wisdom:

    18: +1 4th level spell and +10 lore (Viconia)
    19: +1 1st level spell, +1 4th level spell, and +12 lore (Branwen, Faldorn, and Yeslick)

    Yeslick is multi...whether he can get to the same level as a pure cleric, I don't know, as I haven't looked at the numbers.

    "The difference between 15 and 16 wisdom is nil".

    Source: http://playithardcore.com/pihwiki/index.php?title=Baldur's_Gate:_Races_and_Stats#Wisdom
  • Aasimar069Aasimar069 Member Posts: 803
    edited April 2013
    Bonuses are cumulative. Which means with 19 WIS you earn +1 level one spell and +1 level 4 spell, so more than with 18.

    So Yeslick and Branwen will end with one more level 4 spells than Vicky.

    EDIT : I correct myself : according to this link :

    http://playithardcore.com/pihwiki/index.php?title=Baldur's_Gate:_Progression_Charts

    Branwen will cast more spells than Vicky.

    Yeslick, due to the fact he is one level lower than Vicky (7 Cleric IIRC), will cast the same amount of level 4 spell as Vicky, thanks to 19 WIS over 18 WIS.
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,752


    Viconia ... Sorry but she sucks. a lot.

    Speechless... ©
  • dstoltzfusdstoltzfus Member Posts: 280
    @Aasimar069, the bonus difference between 18 and 19 is only +1 1st level spell. Both get +1 4th level spell. You get the +1 4th level spell bonus at 18 wisdom.
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,752
    And if we're talking serious...

    Viconia can be a great tank available early on. Her 19 DEX rules - it's much better than Branwen's 16 and Yeslick's 12. And if you give her an ankheg armor and a small shield+1....

    I currently use her in a random no-reload run and find her ideal as a tank. AC matters very much in BG1 and you can get gloves of DEX only later (as well as Yeslick).

    That's in my mind is much more important than bonuses from WIS - at the early levels especially - characters tend to die a lot because of a single hit or two. The more DEX the better. I'd swap WIS bonuses for good AC available early on any day.
  • Aasimar069Aasimar069 Member Posts: 803
    edited April 2013

    @Aasimar069, the bonus difference between 18 and 19 is only +1 1st level spell. Both get +1 4th level spell. You get the +1 4th level spell bonus at 18 wisdom.

    Bonus are cumulative which mean every spell slot you earn which each more point is wisdom is kept on your character. The best test is to give 161 000 xp to a cleric, so he can be level 8.

    Then spawn in a few books of wisdom and check the new spell boxes that appears in your book.

    You'll see that you'll gain indeed +1 level four spell slot at 18 WIS, then at 19 WIS another level 4 spell slot and a level 1 spell slot.

    So with

    13 WIS you'll have your base spell slot per level +1 level one bonus spell slot
    14 WIS : base spell slot per level +2 level one spell slot
    15 WIS : base spell slot per level +2 level one spell slot +2 level two spell slot
    16 WIS : base spell slot per level +2 level one spell slot +2 level two spell slot
    17 WIS : base spell slot per level +2 level one spell slot +2 level two spell slot + 1 level three spell slot
    18 WIS : base spell slot per level +2 level one spell slot +2 level two spell slot + 1 level three spell slot + 1 level four spell slot

    19 WIS : base spell slot per level +3 level one spell slot +2 level two spell slot + 1 level three spell slot + 2 level four spell slot
  • Aasimar069Aasimar069 Member Posts: 803
    edited April 2013
    bengoshi said:

    And if we're talking serious...

    Viconia can be a great tank available early on. Her 19 DEX rules - it's much better than Branwen's 16 and Yeslick's 12. And if you give her an ankheg armor and a small shield+1....

    I currently use her in a random no-reload run and find her ideal as a tank. AC matters very much in BG1 and you can get gloves of DEX only later (as well as Yeslick).

    That's in my mind is much more important than bonuses from WIS - at the early levels especially - characters tend to die a lot because of a single hit or two. The more DEX the better. I'd swap WIS bonuses for good AC available early on any day.


    The gloves can be obtained very quickly in the game, so it is quite irrelevant.

    Why would I let my Cleric "tank" at low levels unless desesperate mesures ?
    Whether I pick up Khalid, Ajantis or Kagain, they get the gloves ASAP and have a much better life pool (and saving throws) than Viconia.

    In order to improve her armor class, you'll have to give her either the Ankheg armor (and now a +2 ring since Ankheg armor is not magical anymore) or a full plate mail and gloves of Ogre Strength / Belt of Big fists or a spell, but you'll only find them later in the game.

    And at the beginning of the game you won't give your best armor to your cleric (so it means that Ankheg armor will be worn by your PC or another warrior).


    Though, I agree her 19 dex is great if you give her a sling.

    19 Dex only give +1 ranged THACO more than 18 dex, though (in fact bonus is gained at 17).
    18 DEX is sufficient for having a 6 Base armor (8 at 16 Dex and 9 at 15, 10 below 15 dex).
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