@Aasimar069, I see. Thanks for clarifying that. But still: Viconia "sucks. a lot." because, adding three tomes, she can cast one less level 4 spell than the other two cleric NPC's at max level?
EDIT: Ranged THAC0 adjustment at 19 over 18 is +1, Reaction Adjustment is +1. I don't know about you, but those gloves are very valuable and much better put to other characters than a cleric in the party. I'm not saying that I'd ideally use Viconia as a tank. I am saying that her 19 dex is very useful and a significant factor when judging her as a useful character. That along with 50% MR > one less 4th level spell at the end of the game.
@KidCarnival, Xzar may be the best cleric in the game. My argument is that Viconia is a good cleric and that despite her absurd fanboy following, there are very good reasons why people like her. She is not over-rated.
...and this is why Xzar is the best cleric in the game. Maximum wisdom, 6 mage levels, ok strength, good dex. In Arch Magi robe, with shield and sling and stupifier and helm of the noble, you have an allrounder who can hold himself up in melee if neccessary, hit with ranged weapons and outcast every other cleric.
Not over- or underrated, but... Kivan is always labeled as "THE archer, except Coran is better". I think he doesn't get enough credit for his melee abilities.
Damn straight. Kivan is extremely versatile and people like to overlook that.
Cliché? Really? I can't think of too many characters in other fantasy stories that have characters like him, can you point out some? It's not a rhetorical question, by the way. I like him, every great story needs a little comic relief and that's what he's there for.
Minsc = dumb but lovable brute.
It's been done a thousand times. Earliest example I can think of is probably Of Mice and Men. (Which Xzar quotes, btw)
...and this is why Xzar is the best cleric in the game. Maximum wisdom, 6 mage levels, ok strength, good dex. In Arch Magi robe, with shield and sling and stupifier and helm of the noble, you have an allrounder who can hold himself up in melee if neccessary, hit with ranged weapons and outcast every other cleric.
I have never tried because his weak HP pool was to much to bear for me (though now elven chainmail exists if you want to make him cast cleric/mage spells in armor).
I might give a try later, but with Baeloth and Branwen around, dual classing only for him seems too long (mage levels are long to build).
EDIT : OH ! Better idea : rather than trying to play with dualled Xzar, I will play a dual Necro / Cleric ;-) This way I will not have to comply with the weak life pool, though I will not have Xzar's amazing soundset :-)
...and this is why Xzar is the best cleric in the game. Maximum wisdom, 6 mage levels, ok strength, good dex. In Arch Magi robe, with shield and sling and stupifier and helm of the noble, you have an allrounder who can hold himself up in melee if neccessary, hit with ranged weapons and outcast every other cleric.
I think what you mean to say, is that you have DEATH, THE DESTROYER OF WORLDS!!
I have never tried because his weak HP pool was to much to bear for me (though now elven chainmail exists if you want to make him cast cleric/mage spells in armor).
I might give a try later, but with Baeloth and Branwen around, dual classing only for him seems too long (mage levels are long to build).
EDIT : OH ! Better idea : rather than trying to play with dualled Xzar, I will play a dual Necro / Cleric ;-) This way I will not have to comply with the weak life pool, though I will not have Xzar's amazing soundset :-)
Thanks very much for the idea :-)
The Robes of the Evil Archmagi are actually better than the elven chain mail. They have the same AC, as well as bonus magic resistance (and if you use NI or 'Keeper to change Xzar back to the mage model, they look damned swanky). And with Baeloth in the game you can now get 2 Evil Archmage robes!
@dstoltzfus I agree Viconia isn't a bad NPC. She's certainly useful and can be effective in melee and ranged combat, but she is not outstandingly better than the other clerics. Branwen has decent dex and better strength/con, but a less useful special ability (I can't remember ever using the hammer summon, but then, I also can't recall many occassions when Viconia's magic resistance came into play). Yeslick has better strength/con and a vastly more useful special than any of the other clerics, which - in my opinion - makes up for being multiclassed and not as versatile (in melee/ranged terms). Viconia is overrated insofar that the fanboy front makes her seem "the ultimate NPC" and "But it's VICONIA" is simply not a good argument to not take Branwen or Yeslick instead. There are as many reasons for taking her in the party as there are reasons against her/for another cleric.
@Aasimar069 The low con is no problem for Xzar at all. He gets decent AC from dex, same as Viconia or Shar-Teel. I frequently have him frontlining with Stupifier or Ashideena after some self buffs; or just stand in the back with a sling-for-show, while casually outcasting Edwin. (Ring of Sune AND Evermemory? Suck it, Thayan.) Arch Magi robe gives the same AC as Elven Chain, and some MR, and most notably looks cooler. (Especially since @Eudamonium made an arch magi robe that can be fully recolored and @Pecca made the ranged/melee Wizard Staffs including a necromancer quarterstaff, Xzar is hands down the most stylish NPC.) Ideally, you dual at 6 - it takes 2 invisiblity potions/spells/successful stealth to sneak into Durlag's upper level and get the tome (the only real risk for a low level party are the Battle Horrors), then get his levels back during Cloakwood (where low level cleric spells - slow poison, find traps, sanctuary - are not such a bad thing anyway; mage levels should be back before the Cloakwood Mines lower levels; very convenient). If you can spare the spells or potions before Xzar hits level 6, you can dual him sooner at the cost of some mage spells - not such a loss, since he can use all wands and scrolls and will likely never run out of those.
Over-rated Minsc - I tire of him very quickly usually don't use him unless I need a tank for his quest then drop him when it's done - almost never use him in BG2 at all.
Under rated - Tiax and Qualye too bad you can't get them early without mods
Over-rated - Jahiera in BG1 - I'd rather have Branwen or Viccy
Under-rated - Khalid - there are any number of ways to turn him into an effectlive companion and with proper handling his morale is not an issue (keep him healed up)
Alora is indeed pretty useful and way less annoying than I expected for a long time. Never took her along before BGEE, was positively surprised when I added her.
Underrated: Faldorn. Amongst people who know she probably isn't underrated, but I imagine because of how late you get her people pass her up. Personally druids have great spells and her dread wolf ability is actually very useful.
Underrated: Faldorn. Amongst people who know she probably isn't underrated, but I imagine because of how late you get her people pass her up. Personally druids have great spells and her dread wolf ability is actually very useful.
I know you shouldn't judge a book by the cover but the reason I never took Faldorn wasn't because I found her late or because I didn't rate her abilities but purely because she's got a face like a bag full of spanners.
Underrated: Faldorn. Amongst people who know she probably isn't underrated, but I imagine because of how late you get her people pass her up. Personally druids have great spells and her dread wolf ability is actually very useful.
I know you shouldn't judge a book by the cover but the reason I never took Faldorn wasn't because I found her late or because I didn't rate her abilities but purely because she's got a face like a bag full of spanners.
She is hardly the only NPC in that category. Xzar isn't winning any awards for his looks either.
Underrated: Faldorn. Amongst people who know she probably isn't underrated, but I imagine because of how late you get her people pass her up. Personally druids have great spells and her dread wolf ability is actually very useful.
I know you shouldn't judge a book by the cover but the reason I never took Faldorn wasn't because I found her late or because I didn't rate her abilities but purely because she's got a face like a bag full of spanners.
She is hardly the only NPC in that category. Xzar isn't winning any awards for his looks either.
This is true. In fact there is something of a family resemblance. Maybe they are brother and sister?
Underrated: Faldorn. Amongst people who know she probably isn't underrated, but I imagine because of how late you get her people pass her up. Personally druids have great spells and her dread wolf ability is actually very useful.
I know you shouldn't judge a book by the cover but the reason I never took Faldorn wasn't because I found her late or because I didn't rate her abilities but purely because she's got a face like a bag full of spanners.
She is hardly the only NPC in that category. Xzar isn't winning any awards for his looks either.
This is true. In fact there is something of a family resemblance. Maybe they are brother and sister?
I'm not sure which NPCs are overrated, but there's certainly some that aren't rated very much at all. those are quayle, garrick and khalid.
quayle is actually one of the best casters in the game, arguably as good as than edwin or baeloth. with both the ring of wizardry and holiness, he can by the end of the game, cast a total of 14 lvl 1 spells, 8 lvl 2, 6 lvl 3 and 4 lvl 4. this is a LOT of firepower with the extra trickiness of those useful divine spells like silence, doom and chant.
garrick is a lvl 1 bard, so you can get max hp with him and develop him as you want and as a bard is always useful to have in a team for extra arcane or ranged support
khalid. i think people just find him annoying, but frankly he's the best NPC in the game. comes with jahiera who's also great (though i don't personally like her personality). He's a lvl 1 fighter, using longswords (elven racial thac0 bonus), can achieve high mastery, great Con, great Dex, simple lvl2 spells will give good strength till the gauntlets of ogre power, max hp. the only better tank is kagain (but you need to give him both the gaunts of dex AND the new strength girdle) or ajantis (but you need to give him dex gauntlets and he still won't have better str or as many HP)
i don't think there is such a thing as an overrated NPC, they're all great and useable depending on the party
This is true. In fact there is something of a family resemblance. Maybe they are brother and sister?
Yes, they are. They are also bhaalspawns. Xzar used to be lawful good and was driven to madness by the evil inside his essence; Faldorn is not yet aware of being his sister or a bhaalspawn. The true story behind the game unfolds; it will be a key plot point in BG3.
Overrated: Imoen- Sorry but I just don't find her character likable. She's pretty much forced on your character, esp in BG2 where there's an act where you have to save her. She is useful but I don't care for her
Jaheira- The attitude wears thin real quickly. And from what I hear of her novelization character...
Minsc- The Boo jokes just are unfunny now
Underrated: Ajantis- He's pretty awesome and has tanked quite well for my party
Rassad- He isn't that useless. He's done some good damage and helped out more than once
Neera- She does surprisingly well, even if her voice is grating
Clearly Edwin is the most underrated NPC. I mean, everyone seems to talk about what a terrible mage he is all the time, but he's really quite good. I mean, I know his specialisation isn't as good as Dynaheir's, but he has the bonus of not being paired with Minsc.
Clearly Edwin is the most underrated NPC. I mean, everyone seems to talk about what a terrible mage he is all the time, but he's really quite good. I mean, I know his specialisation isn't as good as Dynaheir's, but he has the bonus of not being paired with Minsc.
Edwin is hands down the best familiar in the game. (He is a familiar, right? I can't remember if I used a spell, but it's a small snarky creature that follows me around...)
Yoshimo is constantly underrated for the mere fact that I don't think people realize he is one the few three dimensional characters.
Absolutely, yes. He's possibly the one NPC that felt the most "real" to me. His banters are often surprising and always amusing. I especially love his dialogue with Keldorn.
Epic traps don't make bounty hunters obsolete, they make them into GODS! GODS! that mages, other kinds of thieves, and mage/thieves only wish they could be.
Epic traps don't make bounty hunters obsolete, they make them into GODS! GODS! that mages, other kinds of thieves, and mage/thieves only wish they could be.
How? Bounty Hunters don't get any special bonus when it comes to the HLA traps. So once HLAs kick in, a Swashbuckler is every bit as effective at traps as a Bounty Hunter, but with all the bonuses of a Swashbuckler.
Like, by that point you've even gone through enough levels for your other thieves to have a sufficiently high Set Traps skill. HLA traps completely obsolete BH traps (unless you're really fond of Mazing people) and provide no bonus to the BH.
Like I said, Rogue Rebalancing fortunately fixes this, by giving the BH a special set of unique, amped-up HLA traps.
Oh, Maze traps are great, don't get me wrong. But they don't compare to the absurd damage of Spike Traps and, most importantly, the incredible power possible with a Time Trap. Especially if you're an Assassin. With Assassination. And Greater Haste cast on you.
Which, again, we're talking about the most devastating trap outcome not requiring the trap specialist.
Same with the Skald. Their Bard Song is nice... Until HLAs come around. Then the Blade has got every bit as good a Bard Song as the Skald, but significantly more fighting power.
Two great kits, ruined by HLAs. Why, Bioware? WHY?
Although, for some perspective, in a typical playthrough HLAs only come into play for the last 15% or so, so it's not exactly a game-breaker. Bounty Hunters still spend all of BG1 and most of SoA being awesome, and Skalds even more so.
Bounty hunter's traps are useful, even at higher levels. Even in ToB. I'll try to give some explanation.
The Mazing Traps can clear the enemies out of an area long enough for the Bounty Hunter to lay a few traps in anticipation of the enemy's return. Here a lot of tactics come into play.
Special Traps no longer deal actual damage starting at level 16. Well, you don't need them to; at this point your normal Traps have plenty of kick. Your Special Traps become immense tactical weapons. I don't think it can be overemphasized how much easier a battle becomes when you can deal with enemies in smaller groups.
At level 21, the Special Trap becomes the most compelling argument for a Bounty Hunter through the game. Your Special Trap will become your most valuable asset. Why? First, almost NOTHING can resist being Mazed by this trap. No Saving Throw, no magic resistence, not even game-important characters can resist it. In fact, it is actually possible to slightly break game scripting by using this trap.
For example when you're in Hell at the end of BG2, if you set a Special Trap before opening the doors, it will activate and actually Maze the normally invulnerably scripted Irenicus. This results in somewhat comic amusement as your characters walk up to an empty battle field, wait, have Irenicus reappear when Maze ends (no longer casting his scripted spell), and wait awkwardly for a minute before scripting reactivates and he goes directly into dialogue (completely skipping all spell effects).
In fact, only VERY hugely game important characters seem to be able to resist this effect; the Demogorgon is the only enemy I've encountered that will consistently resist being Mazed (and he can also resist the Time Stop effect of Time Traps).
In addition, Mazing is a much greater tactical advantage than Sphering enemies. Why? Even if you Sphere the battle group in half, the other half will all unsphere at the same time (unless you set another Special Trap out of their visible range). But Mazing will take out all in-range enemies and return them based on their intelligence (like the actual spell). It is uncommon for enemies to share identical intelligences in one battle encounter; it is further uncommon that you will see identical dice rolls for the randomly generated durations.
This means you can take a huge battle crowd (like the Northern Tunnels in Sendai's Lair if you just run through till the end and let thirty some odd dwarves and Orogs follow in hot pursuit), and reduce it to small skirmishes of two or so enemies at a time. In addition, because enemies are effectively no longer there, you can take the time you bought to Hide your thieves, set more Traps (Spike, Exploding, Normal, whatever), or just better prepare your characters for battle. Or, completely run away and live to fight another day.
Another side bonus is that in skirmishes mixed with mages, the mages will generally have the highest intelligences, meaning they will generally be the first to reappear... alone, without support. Meaning their toughness becomes greatly reduced.
Of course, there is no actual damage that it does, but it still becomes the ultimate support ability in the entire game. Combined with some smart tactics, your Bounty Hunter can end up taking the lion's share in experience value and kills.
When you get the higher end Traps, possibilites explode. For a non-Bounty Hunter, this slightly expands tactical possibilites since an Exploding Trap or a Time Trap goes far in Tactics, and a Spike Trap makes Trap-baiting more effective.
For Bounty Hunters, this becomes a field day, as their Maze Traps can now be supported by a myriad of ways. Whereas a Bounty Hunter might find need of conventional Traps (since Mazing doesn't need to be done nearly as often as normal trapping), Exploding, Time, and Spike Traps wipe away the need. Exploding ones are a sort of cross between conventional Traps and Maze traps, best if you expect multiple enemies to return at once, since you can knock them out of your sight and set another or simply Hide. Time ones can buy you time when enemies appear to Assassinate or backstab to your heart's content, especially with mages, before they have a chance to reestablish their defenses. Spikes make excellent gifts for returning Golems and super-warriors.
With a Bounty Hunter, ordinarily tough battles like the Final Guardians in Watcher's Keep, can become greatly simplified with a few well-put Maze-effect Special Traps.
Comments
EDIT: Ranged THAC0 adjustment at 19 over 18 is +1, Reaction Adjustment is +1. I don't know about you, but those gloves are very valuable and much better put to other characters than a cleric in the party. I'm not saying that I'd ideally use Viconia as a tank. I am saying that her 19 dex is very useful and a significant factor when judging her as a useful character. That along with 50% MR > one less 4th level spell at the end of the game.
@KidCarnival, Xzar may be the best cleric in the game. My argument is that Viconia is a good cleric and that despite her absurd fanboy following, there are very good reasons why people like her. She is not over-rated.
@Kilivitz Minsc = dumb but lovable brute.
It's been done a thousand times. Earliest example I can think of is probably Of Mice and Men. (Which Xzar quotes, btw)
I might give a try later, but with Baeloth and Branwen around, dual classing only for him seems too long (mage levels are long to build).
EDIT : OH ! Better idea : rather than trying to play with dualled Xzar, I will play a dual Necro / Cleric ;-)
This way I will not have to comply with the weak life pool, though I will not have Xzar's amazing soundset :-)
Thanks very much for the idea :-)
The Robes of the Evil Archmagi are actually better than the elven chain mail. They have the same AC, as well as bonus magic resistance (and if you use NI or 'Keeper to change Xzar back to the mage model, they look damned swanky). And with Baeloth in the game you can now get 2 Evil Archmage robes!
@Aasimar069 The low con is no problem for Xzar at all. He gets decent AC from dex, same as Viconia or Shar-Teel. I frequently have him frontlining with Stupifier or Ashideena after some self buffs; or just stand in the back with a sling-for-show, while casually outcasting Edwin. (Ring of Sune AND Evermemory? Suck it, Thayan.) Arch Magi robe gives the same AC as Elven Chain, and some MR, and most notably looks cooler. (Especially since @Eudamonium made an arch magi robe that can be fully recolored and @Pecca made the ranged/melee Wizard Staffs including a necromancer quarterstaff, Xzar is hands down the most stylish NPC.)
Ideally, you dual at 6 - it takes 2 invisiblity potions/spells/successful stealth to sneak into Durlag's upper level and get the tome (the only real risk for a low level party are the Battle Horrors), then get his levels back during Cloakwood (where low level cleric spells - slow poison, find traps, sanctuary - are not such a bad thing anyway; mage levels should be back before the Cloakwood Mines lower levels; very convenient). If you can spare the spells or potions before Xzar hits level 6, you can dual him sooner at the cost of some mage spells - not such a loss, since he can use all wands and scrolls and will likely never run out of those.
Under rated - Tiax and Qualye too bad you can't get them early without mods
Over-rated - Jahiera in BG1 - I'd rather have Branwen or Viccy
Under-rated - Khalid - there are any number of ways to turn him into an effectlive companion and with proper handling his morale is not an issue (keep him healed up)
Under-rated: Alora. You don't think a cute little munchkin can kick ass? Think again
quayle is actually one of the best casters in the game, arguably as good as than edwin or baeloth. with both the ring of wizardry and holiness, he can by the end of the game, cast a total of 14 lvl 1 spells, 8 lvl 2, 6 lvl 3 and 4 lvl 4. this is a LOT of firepower with the extra trickiness of those useful divine spells like silence, doom and chant.
garrick is a lvl 1 bard, so you can get max hp with him and develop him as you want and as a bard is always useful to have in a team for extra arcane or ranged support
khalid. i think people just find him annoying, but frankly he's the best NPC in the game. comes with jahiera who's also great (though i don't personally like her personality). He's a lvl 1 fighter, using longswords (elven racial thac0 bonus), can achieve high mastery, great Con, great Dex, simple lvl2 spells will give good strength till the gauntlets of ogre power, max hp. the only better tank is kagain (but you need to give him both the gaunts of dex AND the new strength girdle) or ajantis (but you need to give him dex gauntlets and he still won't have better str or as many HP)
i don't think there is such a thing as an overrated NPC, they're all great and useable depending on the party
Imoen- Sorry but I just don't find her character likable. She's pretty much forced on your character, esp in BG2 where there's an act where you have to save her. She is useful but I don't care for her
Jaheira- The attitude wears thin real quickly. And from what I hear of her novelization character...
Minsc- The Boo jokes just are unfunny now
Underrated:
Ajantis- He's pretty awesome and has tanked quite well for my party
Rassad- He isn't that useless. He's done some good damage and helped out more than once
Neera- She does surprisingly well, even if her voice is grating
Epic traps don't make bounty hunters obsolete, they make them into GODS! GODS! that mages, other kinds of thieves, and mage/thieves only wish they could be.
Like, by that point you've even gone through enough levels for your other thieves to have a sufficiently high Set Traps skill. HLA traps completely obsolete BH traps (unless you're really fond of Mazing people) and provide no bonus to the BH.
Like I said, Rogue Rebalancing fortunately fixes this, by giving the BH a special set of unique, amped-up HLA traps.
Which, again, we're talking about the most devastating trap outcome not requiring the trap specialist.
Same with the Skald. Their Bard Song is nice... Until HLAs come around. Then the Blade has got every bit as good a Bard Song as the Skald, but significantly more fighting power.
Two great kits, ruined by HLAs. Why, Bioware? WHY?
Although, for some perspective, in a typical playthrough HLAs only come into play for the last 15% or so, so it's not exactly a game-breaker. Bounty Hunters still spend all of BG1 and most of SoA being awesome, and Skalds even more so.
The Mazing Traps can clear the enemies out of an area long enough for the Bounty Hunter to lay a few traps in anticipation of the enemy's return. Here a lot of tactics come into play.
Special Traps no longer deal actual damage starting at level 16. Well, you don't need them to; at this point your normal Traps have plenty of kick. Your Special Traps become immense tactical weapons.
I don't think it can be overemphasized how much easier a battle becomes when you can deal with enemies in smaller groups.
At level 21, the Special Trap becomes the most compelling argument for a Bounty Hunter through the game. Your Special Trap will become your most valuable asset. Why? First, almost NOTHING can resist being Mazed by this trap. No Saving Throw, no magic resistence, not even game-important characters can resist it. In fact, it is actually possible to slightly break game scripting by using this trap.
For example when you're in Hell at the end of BG2, if you set a Special Trap before opening the doors, it will activate and actually Maze the normally invulnerably scripted Irenicus. This results in somewhat comic amusement as your characters walk up to an empty battle field, wait, have Irenicus reappear when Maze ends (no longer casting his scripted spell), and wait awkwardly for a minute before scripting reactivates and he goes directly into dialogue (completely skipping all spell effects).
In fact, only VERY hugely game important characters seem to be able to resist this effect; the Demogorgon is the only enemy I've encountered that will consistently resist being Mazed (and he can also resist the Time Stop effect of Time Traps).
In addition, Mazing is a much greater tactical advantage than Sphering enemies. Why? Even if you Sphere the battle group in half, the other half will all unsphere at the same time (unless you set another Special Trap out of their visible range). But Mazing will take out all in-range enemies and return them based on their intelligence (like the actual spell). It is uncommon for enemies to share identical intelligences in one battle encounter; it is further uncommon that you will see identical dice rolls for the randomly generated durations.
This means you can take a huge battle crowd (like the Northern Tunnels in Sendai's Lair if you just run through till the end and let thirty some odd dwarves and Orogs follow in hot pursuit), and reduce it to small skirmishes of two or so enemies at a time. In addition, because enemies are effectively no longer there, you can take the time you bought to Hide your thieves, set more Traps (Spike, Exploding, Normal, whatever), or just better prepare your characters for battle. Or, completely run away and live to fight another day.
Another side bonus is that in skirmishes mixed with mages, the mages will generally have the highest intelligences, meaning they will generally be the first to reappear... alone, without support. Meaning their toughness becomes greatly reduced.
Of course, there is no actual damage that it does, but it still becomes the ultimate support ability in the entire game. Combined with some smart tactics, your Bounty Hunter can end up taking the lion's share in experience value and kills.
When you get the higher end Traps, possibilites explode. For a non-Bounty Hunter, this slightly expands tactical possibilites since an Exploding Trap or a Time Trap goes far in Tactics, and a Spike Trap makes Trap-baiting more effective.
For Bounty Hunters, this becomes a field day, as their Maze Traps can now be supported by a myriad of ways. Whereas a Bounty Hunter might find need of conventional Traps (since Mazing doesn't need to be done nearly as often as normal trapping), Exploding, Time, and Spike Traps wipe away the need. Exploding ones are a sort of cross between conventional Traps and Maze traps, best if you expect multiple enemies to return at once, since you can knock them out of your sight and set another or simply Hide. Time ones can buy you time when enemies appear to Assassinate or backstab to your heart's content, especially with mages, before they have a chance to reestablish their defenses. Spikes make excellent gifts for returning Golems and super-warriors.
With a Bounty Hunter, ordinarily tough battles like the Final Guardians in Watcher's Keep, can become greatly simplified with a few well-put Maze-effect Special Traps.