The things you want that you know won't happen. *BG2 SPOILERS*
Necomancer
Member Posts: 622
Due to contract limitations I know theres alot that can't be done in BG2:EE.
Still, we can dream can't we? Whats something you want to happen that you know won't?
Personally, I want a quest to turn Mazzy into a paladin. I know it won't happen, but she deserves it and I've spent more then one game using shadowkeeper to make her dream come true.
That, or BG1 NPCs brought into BG2. I miss you Kivan.
Added spoiler tag. -Jalily
Still, we can dream can't we? Whats something you want to happen that you know won't?
Personally, I want a quest to turn Mazzy into a paladin. I know it won't happen, but she deserves it and I've spent more then one game using shadowkeeper to make her dream come true.
That, or BG1 NPCs brought into BG2. I miss you Kivan.
Added spoiler tag. -Jalily
Post edited by Jalily on
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Comments
Better ends for Viconia and Edwin. Yes, they are evil, but they are also popular. It shouldn't end with one dying and one losing all powers for good.
Starting NPCs based on charname's alignment - if good, as is (Jaheira, Minsc, Imoen, dead Khalid) - if neutral: Jaheira, Branwen (possibly revamped/dualed as fighter to fill in for Minsc), Imoen, dead Khalid - if evil: Shar-Teel, Eldoth, Imoen, dead Skie (to stick with the dead spouse theme). Branwen and Shar-Teel would be in Minsc's cage and freed in a similar way, just a different provocation ("weak woman" or something) to enrage them.
I made a post about it half a year ago; http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/6215/rewriting-throne-of-bhaal/p1
_____
I'm ok with the basic setup of Throne of Bhaal; at this point it's unlikely that someone would ask the adventurer with near godlike power to clear out some kobolds from a cave (this is why you subcontract).
Mundane sidequests are beneath you and there's not a world-destroying monstrosity around every corner. Except for your siblings of course.
The plot focuses on the end race for Bhaal's power. The final players are in, this is the hour where it all gets decided and that works quite well for a finale. It doesn't waste time with side characters, your mission is simple; Kill the others before they kill you.
I do have one problem with it though; Melissan.
I have a deep disdain for Melissan and whoever thought it was a good idea to include her. You know she's evil from the moment she shows up. She's a witch and a crappy liar, her plot makes no sense at all and she's introduced at the final part of the saga, suddenly presented as the great threat.
Worst of all, despite having EVIL BITCH written on her forehead, you can't call her out until someone else goes "Hey, bhaalspawn demigod with planeshaking wisdom and/or mindboggeling intellect, this harpy before you is evil! Aren't you a surprised little bastard now?"
No, no I'm not, I've been yelling "Don't trust the evil bitch!" at my monitor for six hours now, but for some reason, Flaran the Wise was turned into Flaran the Fucktard when she showed up. I'm guessing a low cut robe and double D's were involved, I accept no other explanation.
Ahem.
So anyway.
If they were allowed to rewrite (which they're not), I'd recommend cutting her out entirely. She's not *required* for the plot to work, all she does it point you in the right direction. That role can be filled by anyone.
The final battle would then not be with some flunky with a god complex, but with the revived essence of Bhaal itself, an actual revived god. I doubt he'd wait til ALL his children were dead, he works just fine at 98% capacity so the deaths of Charname, Imoen, Balthazar and Viekang aren't strictly required (clearing the plothole of "but Viekang is still alive, how can you be a god if he's alive and you don't have his essence" as well).
It's also more personal; you've been fighting this bastard since he started whispering in your ear the moment you left Candlekeep. Imagine how chilling it would be to have Bhaal himself throw you a speech, ending with "You WILL learn!" before he throws in all his god-powers? With his power over Death and Murder, he could summon anyone you murdered and infuse them with his divine spark, bringing them up to your power level. This could be a whole list of enemies you faced; Shank and Carbos (your first kills), Tarnesh from the Friendly Arm Inn (can't wait to kill him again), Davaeorn, Tazok (Again? Again!), Sarevok if you didn't take him in your party at the start of ToB, Irenicus and Bodhi (much like Ascension), maybe even Khalid, forced to work for Bhaal (If anyone was murdered, it was him and imagine how messed up this would make Jaheira (always a bonus)).
It reminds you of all the foes you faced and shows you how much of a death machine you really are, as well as tying the series together in the final chapter.
The fight is more personal for your allies too; Imoen hates her heritage to the bone, Sarevok is facing what he failed to become (and possibly now resents for moral reasons as well), Jaheira has been helping you fight this being since the beginning.
And in the end, when you land your final blow, there'll be no Solar giving you the choice of Godhood or not. This never made any sense, Solars are the purest beacons of Good, they'd never allow a CE Charname to ascend to godhood if they could stop it. Her visits in the pocketplane were to try and steer you away from the dark path, but in the end, it's a choice YOU have to make and arrange, not have some random angel do the work for you after you say yes or no.
When Bhaal is on his knees and defeated, you can choose. Grab him by the throat and absorb his power or destroy him utterly? YOU do the deed and grab the power yourself, instead of it being given to you by a heavenly tart.
This way, the final part of the game is much more dramatic, much more personal and it reminds you of the entire series, instead of being a self-contained unit like now.
And it removes Melissan.
God I hate Mellissan.
Still, it's tempting, I should practice my coding a bit ;-)
"How can I help?"
"You have already helped."
"What."
/vapid stare
"Uhh, right. Going to go, uhm, get rocks out of my boots. Alone."
But no, seriously. I'd like to see an official roe-mantz for her. Really get in the Roenall's faces, possibly find out who hired Tor'Gal.
And then some official romances for female CHARNAMEs that aren't Dorn or Rasaad (new people don't count!) -- maybe finish up Haer'Dalis' shelved content, and then add Valygar and Yoshimo.
Haer'Dalis' could be...whatever, I don't know, conflicts with Aerie? Maybe some really interesting cosmological conversations.
Valygar's could have special conversation funtimes with Mages! "Wow, I really like you, and all, but, uhm, you're a maaaage." "I ain't changin' for ye, hun." Or some really neat options for a Wizard Slayer. Maybe the "bad good ending" could have him reconcile with Suna Seni. And a "bad bad ending" that has him attain undeath through evil.
Yoshimo's, well...I don't want to get into that.
The plot would be that Duke Entar Silvershield's son (Skie's brother) is still missing by the time of BG2. The Flaming Fist have been searching for any sign that he survived the caravan highjacking, it's feared that the son was taken far from their reach for ransom when no body was recovered among the slaughtered. Here enters Skie, who we find has been abandoned both by the disappearance of CHARNAME and has been swindled out of her few possessions left from home by Eldoth. She is alone for the first time in her life with no home to go back to (since she fears her father's wrath) and no-one to depend on (since CHARNAME and Eldoth aren't around).
Instead she settles down in the town of Beregost working in the tavern of the Burning Wizard just to get by when she hears the tale of the lost caravan carrying her brother. Learning more, she tracks down one of the last individuals to see her brother alive, that being Kagain. Kagain's reputation has been left in tatters and is desperate for any chance of earning enough gold to rebuild his business. Skie and Kagain then strike an unlikely bargain, where both agree to help each other out in the search for her brother but for very different reasons.
Fast forward to the events of BG2, where CHARNAME stumbles upon Silvershield's kid during the Slaver's quest but unfortunately the rescue is short lived when a cloaked figure accidentally triggers off a stinking cloud trap. When the smoke dissipates the room is empty, CHARNAME manages to chase the slavers down to the Athkatla docks. As they leave the docks by boat, the cloaked figure steps into the light and reveals herself to be Skie. She's now Chaotic Neutral and more deft in her thieving skills, putting her dancing training to good use by fulfilling the role of the Shadow Dancer NPC. Skie apologizes for her mistake and asks to rejoin CHARNAME in the hope that traveling with him will lead her to her brother. She suggests that they head over to Trademeet to find her traveling companion Kagain for the extra muscle and further information of where the brother has been moved to. There at Trademeet they also find Eldoth who has been taking advantage of the flow of visiting merchants to swindle. Although Skie is still hurt from his treatment and betrayal, she can take him back for the sake of her mission, especially after hearing that he might have information himself about the slavers.
From there the player along with Skie must choose to take Kagain, Eldoth, both or neither on the quest. Eventually with either one of them double crossing the group upon rescuing Skie's brother. It all depends on if Skie has managed to redeem them or forge a bond with either or both of them. The quest line finishes when CHARNAME returns to Brynnlaw after the events of rescuing Imoen. When returning to Athkatla from Brynnlaw, an emissary of the Flaming Fist takes the child back to Baldur's Gate. The player then has the option to send Skie, Kagain or Eldoth to bolster the Flaming Fist's entourage. The decision reflects the circumstance of their return in Throne of Bhaal, as whoever leaves with the Flaming Fist gets their wishes fulfilled.
This is just a rough outline but I really wish the story of these three NPCs were fleshed out. I can deal with Alora, Kivan, Yeslick, Branwen, Xan and Shar-Teel going back to wherever they came from as a resolution to their story but Eldoth is banned from his hometown and Waterdeep, Kagain has no real backstory and Skie just has so much untapped potential. But that's pretty much my unrealistic wish.
I would love a much lower magic Amn that is consistent with canon (Lands of Intrigue). This is basically a re-envisioning of the entire game, though:
Per canon, the people of Amn (wealthy merchants and the common folk who work for them) have a deep hatred of arcane magic, and a tremendous prejudice towards wizards. Mages are feared, despised, and ostracized. So arcane magic really is illegal, although a lot of it still goes on on the downlow.
Not so with divine magic, as all the gods are embraced, and divine magic is fine. Any item is enchanted with divine magic is perfectly legal. But such items are however very expensive. And would be relatively rare to come by. The most powerful among such items are usable only by clerics of the deity related to the enchantment, or paladins serving the deity.
The game's wizard spell scrolls would be available only via the black market. You get access to scrolls by allying with either an evil power group (there's a good number of them detailed in LoI, IIRC) or the Cowled Wizards--as the Cowls exist in canon. This would take some rewriting and modification of the core game. The game's existing "Cowled Wizards" would have to renamed as agents of the government under the aegis of whichever member of Council of Six it is that regulates magic, spies, and foreign adventurers. That is really what the game's Cowls are supposed to be. The actual Cowled Wizards are a totally underground organization.
Similarly, magic items would become available mostly in the same manner, i.e., via the black market and alliance with a group. The other way is via loot drops and/or burglary of power group locations (see further below).
Adventurers must register with the government, and are called upon to perform quests from time to time. You are then basically acting as spies for the government, and you may choose alliance with any number of factions competing within the government. This grants the party the proper license to use arcane magic. But...
... Licenses to use arcane magic are tightly regulated. And the licenses are tiered. When you complete a quest you gain access to a merchant that sells certain items and scrolls within a level range.
You may from time to time be confronted by agents of the government from rival factions that may confiscate any magic items or scrolls that you are unlicensed to use. You can then either fight those agents, hand the items over as confiscated contraband, or offer a bribe. If the bribe fails, you can fight or go to jail. The only way out of jail is to take a quest. If you accept the quest but don't fufill it, you'll be hunted down by both high level clerics and mages of the faction you had allied with (but have failed to comply with), and will have to fight them at every turn.
Now, I know there's really no way that a mega-mod like this will ever get made. The scope is just too great. But it's the game that I would loved to have seen set in Amn for the BG series.
Oh, also--the Wizard Slayer would be revised to become a useful kit!
Drop Melissan entirely and everything would be fine. The antagonist should be your instinct, the essence of bhaal that you face after Irenicus steals your soul or whatever. Get Michael Dorn to voice a few more lines and the ending should go as you describe. Defeat the essence and it's all up to you.. At that point to decide what you want to do.
And no Solar....
How does the pocket plane work then? Just eliminate it? And along with it the trials there.
The dream sequences are one of the few common elements that were present through both BG1 and BG2 and a constant reminder that the essence of Bhaal was always there, lurking behind CHARNAME's subconscious. Then, in ToB, as Bhaal is getting closest to his resurrection... they stop. That's it. Not a peep from the essence of godhood, just as it's reaching the pinnacle of its power.
Even if Mellisan and the solar didn't get ditched, why not include one final dream, just for closure's sake? After Mellisan falls, there's one more confrontation with Bhaal himself: a waking dream within CHARNAME's own mind, beyond the reach of the solar or other powers- that-be. At that point, the PC would have his full attention, anyway -- and maybe that was Bhaal's plan all along, that if his obviously-evil-and-untrustworthy high priestess didn't pull through, he could simply focus on and corrupt his final child from within and re-attain godhood with the surviving Bhaalspawn as his mortal vessel.
That's on the top of my wishlist. If I ever get the time and patience to try modding, that'll be my end goal.
This should be a mod. Mellisanbgone or BhaalRestored or Return of Bhaal or something. Actually, the title Throne of Bhaal makes much more sense as a title for the expansion if you are actually concerned with taking on Bhaal and not some last minute witch.
I would never play BG2:TOB without it.
It would also work given that his purification on the altar already gives such a huge xp reward...
....Infinitely heavy emphasis on " ending"; I thought evil ending and nice, rather sentimental epilogues for everyone did awesome job in completing the story in highly satisfying fashion. They could have taken it up a notch by adding fates or in Memoriams of sorts to BG I NPCs as well. Also, I can well dig the highly existental Tormentish vibe ToB was kinda going for; pocket planes, realms of dead, having chats with inner demons, yaddayadda. PlayerChar is evolving to god afterall so this stuff feels right at home. Way more so than offing some brigands or dragons would have.
HOWEVER, everything else in ToB kinda sucked,story-wise. Re-writing much of it would be grand.
Having to spend entire freakin game by doing bidding of some vile bitch is highly unsatisfying. Mostly because player immediately realizes she has her own game to play..yet, game doesn't give PlayerChar any real tools to move against her. It is infinitely frustrating to know things as a player long before the oh-so-mighty Godchild PlayerChar is given change to figure anything out. Tis' unsatisfying and dumb. By ToB, PlayerChar has grown into such ridiculously epic proportions. It would have been cool had the game come up with ways to make the Bhaalspawn more active actor with his own goals and decisions. Instead, it is all "Do This Do That" questing. Game should tell Player what PlayerChar might or might not want to do, not some NPC witch everyone immediately mislikes and mistrusts. Tis frustrating since there would have been million easy, cheap and cool ways to do this. Have Bhaal speak inside player's head. Follow his advice and you become him. Act against his guidance and you turn into a goodguygod/mortal. Problem solved.
Come the Final Battle, Epic, Existental gyaarghing could have been taken to next level by having player fight himself. Eventually Bhaalness within PlayerChar has grown so huge it simply tears it's way lose from mortal side within PlayerChar's mind. Fight over control of both parts ensues. Evil Bhlaaspawn needs to face his mortal self and couple of do gooder NPCs. GoodGuyGod or person wanting to get rid of immortality needs to..I dunno, kill some boring Slayer Avatar I guess! Fight is preluded by equally epic dialogue with oneself where player gets to pick options for both BadGuy and GoodGuy! It depends on your karma, alignement and those dialogue options which of the avatars on screen ends up being the PlayerChar, which the End Boss. GoodGuy prevails by drawing strength from his friends and whatnots; within PCs mind they fight by his side. BadGuy now has new friends and gets to unleash approx nine hells on them.
Also, stuff you do(/don't do) in BG I should somehow reflect which NPCs live/die/remain joinable in BG 2.
BRING BACK XZAR!
edit,
'wellp, clearly portions about Mel have been thoroughly covered already. Didn't read the thread before posting. Yet, doesn't hurt to add more voices to the chore when song is performed for a good cause!:l
But then, everytime something is asked in this forum, 2 answers can be done (when someone even bother to answer a feature request):
- can't do because is difficult and we can use the resources for other uses.
- can't do because that goes agains the assignment of rights that beamdog got from ATARI, WotC and/or someone else.
Well, i'm thinking in make a request of:
Give us knowledge of the exact assignment of rights made by Beamdog, so we will know exactly what can be done and what can't be done.
It's an enhancement of an old game and the devs asked for our trust to support and buy the game with minor content changes and before it's release. Well i'm in favor of ask that trust back now in this matter in the form of information, specific the assignment of rights information.
But then again, the more I think about it, Bhaalrestored idea sounds cool too. To hear the nostalgic and creepy 'You'll learn!' quote and starting the epic final battle would give many players goosebumps.
Seriously. Check this thread: http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/1588/bgee-please-read-list-of-things-that-cant-be-done/p1
That's exactly why this very thread exists. So we can discuss the things we know we won't get. It's not particularly productive, but then again, not every conversation has to be. We do it because it's fun. And because it may end up spawning mods with potential to become popular.
For those who can't be bothered checking the link (or if you want a little more insight), it basically goes like this:
- Adding new content (areas and/or quests, items, NPCs) and game/engine features (new kits, new functionalities) is okay.
- Adding new content to (or altering) original NPCs is NOT okay, except for interactions/banters with new NPCs (or interjections that take place in new areas/during new quests). Note that those only add to and never alter the original content - Neera is not going to intervene on Edwin's conflict with Dynaheir, for example (at least, not in a way that could affect the outcome of it or incite new responses from either of them). There'll be no BG1 NPCs returning to BG2:EE as joinable companions. And no NPCs with cameos will be made into joinable characters. Needless to say, no one's going to be resurrected and there will be no new romances (except the ones involving new NPCs, of course).
- Altering the original story in any significant way is NOT okay, except for minor dialogues/outcomes that have no significant impact on the story and/or correct bugs or inconsistencies. Encounters and items can be tweaked or relocated, but they are reluctant to do so at the risk of introducing new bugs. Ascension will not be implemented in ToB (save for a few tweaks that add rather than change content, and that's IF they do it. For example, they may make certain dialogues with Imoen and Sarevok timed instead of random, but that's about it). In fact, ToB's storyline will remain intact, and if you consider it too short/linear your only hope is that they will add new quests and/or a dungeon (which they probably will).
- Altering the AD&D 2e rules used in the game is NOT okay, except when correcting bugs and/or inconsistencies. The Vancian magic system is not going anywhere. THAC0 and descending AC will not be replaced by Base Attack Bonus and ascending AC. Sneak Attack will not replace Backstabbing mechanics.
I may be mistaken (or have forgotten) about certain things. Anyone with more (or better) knowledge on this, please feel free to correct me. Actually, please *do* correct me, as I don't want to misinform anybody. I could argue that anyone who cares enough as to open up a thread with a request is expected to take the time to read the thread linked above, specially considering it's a sticky at the Feature Requests category.
Now all we need is @PhillipDaigle and cohorts to brave a massive breach of contract and face ruination of their company, as well as put in a few hundred hours to implement the changes and we're set :-p
Eh, anyway, it's unfortunate the ball didn't roll this way. I really don't know why Mellissan was implemented but we'll chalk it up to a lack of time when designing the game. I still enjoyed ToB, but that particular railroad always bugged me.
Edit: The pocket plane can work. Has to work for the Saradush plot.
Change Cespenar from the oddly out of place happy-go-lucky crafting minion to a slightly more informed majordomo who can fill the role of the Solar (who, I repeat, is an incredibly inappropriate choice to manage the locked power of an incredibly Evil deity. No super-angel would do anything but try to destroy it).
The trials would still go, just not overseen by an Angel. A more powerful/serious version of Cespenar (or possibly just a seperate character) could manage those, as well as your final teleportation to the Throne of Bhaal for the end fight. Being one of Bhaal's surviving servitors, he could also hint at other forces still being loyal to Bhaal (since Cyrcis is an incompetent fuckup) who are waiting for you to ascend the Throne.
This makes the God choice even more tempting, since you'll be informed that you're not just gaining Divine Power and a small godly Plane but also a legion of fiendish servants.
Whether he'd know about Bhaal's plan to be reborn through you instead of you replacing Bhaal is up for debate of course. Regardless, he'd want you at the Throne of Bhaal, facing off with his master, eager to claim the Divine Right.
The excuse "can't do because is difficult and we can use the resources for other uses" had an official use of it there for new animations only.
I'm almost sure that Trent also said that anything could be changed IF the proper permission were negotiated for that, therefore making the rewrite of ToB possible (doubt that this will be done anyway).
When i made my previous post i really didn't complain about my feature requests, from the registration of my membership on this forum to january/2013 i had opened only 20 threads, but i saw a lot of nice feature requests over this forum that are always put on oblivion.
In the video at the end of SoA, there are 7 people sitting around the table. You fight "The 5" Bhaalspawn and Melissan... Who is the seventh person? I would personally like to see this seventh person somewhere in the game.