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Checking In: An Open Discussion about Developer Transparency

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  • pekirtpekirt Member Posts: 111
    Dee said:

    ... or would you rather see something like a blog talking about more general ideas? ...

    The trick with that would be to not make it sound like some company exec's list of selling points, with the right word combinations.
  • mlnevesemlnevese Member, Moderator Posts: 10,214
    edited May 2013
    Actually thinking about it I think some bugs most people never noticed should be commented also. The game now has over 2000 bugs fixed, many which have existed since the original BG was released and most people have no idea of that.

    This gives the impression the devs are doing nothing when anyone in the beta team can see the amount of work that is being put in this game.
  • FrancescoTFrancescoT Member Posts: 17
    edited May 2013
    Make also clear the consequences to have to support a game on 3 different platform and the time needed for approval for every patch from App Store / Play Store / Steam. Just to know that the X weeks we are still waiting are from App Store lazyness in approval :).

    @Dee
    Out of curiosity, it will be standard policy to a have patch release at the same time on all platform? People having standalone installer have in any case to wait for, let's talk about pc, steam approval?
  • CamDawgCamDawg Member, Developer Posts: 3,438
    Messi said:

    CamDawg said:

    At times it's frustrating when I know an answer to a question but can't answer because of NDAs or other reasons.

    I can't be the only one thinking how ridiculous having as strict NDA as you guys seem to have on 15 year old game is. I mean sure you guys have added some new stuff, but it's still 95% the same as it was before.
    It's actually not very restrictive; the problem is that it covers two of the major questions--deadlines a.k.a. when's the next patch coming out, and new content. I've got no problems popping into a bug thread and posting about a fix, and Avenger in particular is very active in the bug forums.
  • KhyronKhyron Member Posts: 635
    What actually gets posted by Devs in terms of what's to expect in upcomming patches isn't very important I believe.

    Like I said in my first post just keep it simple and honest. If you've fixed bug X, then just say so. If you've added 3 quests to Thieves Guild, why keep it secret? If you've cleaned up processing cycles in the ipad version to reduce drop of framerate with AoE spells.. just tell us :)

    I don't -care- what you end up saying in a Dev tracker thread, or blog, or whatever, as long as you say -something-. If the next patch isn't very exciting or doesn't give for a enjoyable read, then that's just how it is. Not all patches for all software is about new flashy bling bling.. sometimes fixing button X to actually perform action Y is a lot better than any new content..
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited May 2013
    The user and all related content has been deleted.
    Post edited by [Deleted User] on
  • mlnevesemlnevese Member, Moderator Posts: 10,214
    That would be an interesting bit of information. The bugs discovered/bugs fixed would give people an idea of how much work is going on.
  • KerozevokKerozevok Member Posts: 695
    An Open Discussion about Developer Transparency ?....

    http://nsa34.casimages.com/img/2013/05/12/130512094249589216.jpg
  • ajwzajwz Member Posts: 4,122
    In the feature requests forum, there is a thread @AndreaColombo made called "LIST OF THINGS THAT HAVE BEEN ANNOUNCED"

    It might be a decent idea to have one of these again, but for patches. You could have a section for "Confirmed for the next patch" and a section for "Confirmed in the pipeline"
  • pekirtpekirt Member Posts: 111
    edited May 2013
    Dee said:

    If I could, I'd like to direct some of the energy to identifying what sorts of information people think would be important to include in these hypothetical updates. One of the pitfalls I see here is that when you're fixing bugs, there's not always a whole lot of "juicy" information about what you're working on as a team, which for consumers doesn't make for a very interesting read.

    Honestly speaking, I personally don't bother to read bugfixes unless they affect me. While at this point the coders' majority of time presumably is spent on such stuff, if it doesn't affect me, I'm simply not interested. I appreciate all the effort that goes into a polished product, of course, but that's a more "abstract" appreciation, rather than an "OMG they did it!" kind of appreciation.

    News on new features... Now that's another story. ;)

    One thing that would make the bugfixes an interesting read... This would also be a good idea in and of itself... If something takes much longer (or hey, much shorter) than you expected, give us an earnest behind-the-scenes of the process. A bit of drama never hurts. ;)

    As for disingenuity... There's a difference between delivering and marketing a product (which is all nice, and it's kind of expected) and being actually proud of the product. If you're in the first group (nothing wrong with that) but try to pass it off as the second case... Well, it shows. Not that you were doing anything like it; if anything, it seems to me you were always honest. However, if there's going to be a mandatory blog post update on every third week's Thursday on the new stuff that was done, then it may end up feeling like a marketing job for you, and we the geek/consumers can spot that. So keep it loose, kind of. No rigid rules. (That's why I gave Rich Burlew's example: He has a work-o-meter chart, but what each unit in the scale means, he's keeping it to himself on purpose, so that he can change things. He simply has three general categories: Concept phase, solid plans and blueprints phase, production phase. He then subdivides these phases arbitrarily.)

    (I'm not in the coding business--unless you count the numerical work I do for my research--, I'm unfortunately no longer an avid gamer, I'm definitely not in the marketing or PR business, and as for my geek credentials... the last time I played PnP seriously was in the Living Greyhawk campaign (Hail Iuz!). So these are the rants of just a man on the street. But I did kill one year of my PhD with BG2 way back when.)

    (Edit: Spelling and grammar)
    Post edited by pekirt on
  • PugPugPugPug Member Posts: 560
    edited May 2013
    How not to dispense information:

    One thing I hate-hate-HATE about the news with so many games is that the place to find it isn't the game's website or even it's forum: It's the personal Twitter feeds of the developers.

    Anything pertinent released on Twitter should be easy to find on the official site. If copy/pastaing is too much trouble, then that may mean embedding their Twitter feeds right here. If they don't want to do that, then maybe they shouldn't be tweeting exclusive info. As a matter of company policy.

    At the very least, the Twitter accounts should be hyperlinked and easy to find. Who is Trent? Where would I even start looking for his account? Who else is secretly tweeting info that I might be missing?

    And yes, it is a secret, because it is not announced here in the fans' public space.

    How to dispense information:

    I like the closed thread idea so that we have one repository of past and present information. Perhaps this could even be in the Announcements category. Each post can link to an official discussion thread in General, if you like.

    Add a dev tracker to the forums.

    What information to dispense:

    What I really want to know is, even generally speaking, what your goals are for future updates. Because I have no idea.

    I'd like to see a pie chart, frankly. Or a breakdown of percentages. An approximation of priorities. If fixing bugs takes 2/3 of the chart, or whatever, how much of the chart is adding different types of content? How much of it is tweaking different types of content?

    Kit rebalancing is a big priority of mine. Is that even on the table? I don't know.

    But that way, we could at least know what you are thinking without you giving away all the details.

    And wherever you can, yeah, I'd like to see summaries of planned additions. I have no idea what's on the table, but just as some examples of the level of detail that would satisfy me:

    • A medium-length side quest.
    • A new recruitable cleric NPC.
    • The Favored Soul kit
    • Adding items to shore up underrepresented armor types

    For bug fixes, you could add them to a list as they are confirmed for the next update.

    This would also be a good place to link to overrides that have been released as hotfixes, like for Firebead's scroll quest or the stat penalty to dwarves at character creation. It's totally silly that these files are buried in discussion threads.

    When it comes to releasing information in general: Maybe it's because I've never been in their position, but I do not understand the terror developers seem to feel about revealing too much information. Do we really cry bloody murder when plans change? Has it even been tried, or is this just folklore passed on and on as conventional wisdom? I think people are reasonable and will respond reasonably to well-reasoned reasons. And even if we do kick and scream... who the hell cares?
  • KerozevokKerozevok Member Posts: 695
    edited May 2013

    It was really after that fiasco that the developers became less open about what they were doing, so the fanbase only really has itself to blame.

    >> Mwaaaahhaaahhaaaah... ^^

    Thanks for this great time of laugh, but before the release they announced :

    BGEE will be available in all languages.

    >> False and 5 months after the release, the game is always only available in english.

    A new GUI with a lot of improvements.

    >> False, the GUI is the same than BG2.

    The blue GUI is not definitive, it's only a beta version.

    >> False...

    With BGEE, no need to install fixpack.

    >> At the release, the game counts over 500 bugs...

    Beamdog support the modding.

    >> False, only Archaic have a tool for read the new compressed format, they don't share this tool with the public.

    With BGEE, modding will be more easy.

    >> False, most of the graphics files (MOS, BAM, BMP, PVR & TIS) cannot be read/extract by the editors and the new triggers are : AreaCheckAllegiance(), IsTouchGUI(), BeenInParty() and HasDLC(), nothing more.

    The features of TobEx are included in BGEE.

    >> False, only the fixes are included and each time a modder made a request, the answer is always "coming soon" or "they are too busy".

    I stop here, but now I understand why they're silent.
  • WanderonWanderon Member Posts: 1,418
    Probably not doable but I really loved the way the dev post feature worked in the old Bioware forums where a button appeared whenever a dev posted in the thread and using that button would lead you to a chronological thread of every dev post in the thread. This allowed player input/discussion with the devs but gave you a way to cut through the chaff and read only the dev comments if you wished.

    The closed dev thread with a link to a discussion thread is probably the closest you can get to that and I think that's a worthwhile alternative.

    Suggestion: Delegate authority - give some senior moderators a way to gather bits and pieces of update material from devs and put it together into a weekly update.
  • mlnevesemlnevese Member, Moderator Posts: 10,214
    @Wanderon That's a good idea. Any moderator who is in the beta has a lot of information. We would just need permission to disclose what the devs wish to announce.
  • Wikkid_SuhnWikkid_Suhn Member Posts: 136
    ajwz said:

    @Kerozevok helpfully providing an example of what @Eudaemonium is describing there.

    He might not have put it lightly, but I think he has a point. Making a lot of promises one cannot keep is not being transparent and honest with one's fan base.

    I really doubt there was a discussion among the Overhaul team to the effect of: "Those ungrateful fans are being unpleasant! Our feelings are hurt, so let's not be open anymore!" It is more likely that they realized their error in making promises they did not have the means to keep, and are choosing to error on the side of caution in disclosing information.

    Whenever you deal with consumers, be it within the game industry, food industry, or what-have-you, people get upset when their expectations aren't met. I wouldn't assume that the Overhaul team, with the veterans that it has, takes things as personally as you might believe.

  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,318
    edited May 2013
    Regular posts in the forums by team members (presumably a point person), especially when such posts also include links to any corresponding dev blog posts that expand on the subject, should be plenty. I agree with others that Twitter isn't the best mechanism to keep the community apprised of progress and new developments.
    Post edited by Lemernis on
  • elementelement Member Posts: 833
    regarding information dispersal

    I think a dev only thread that contained update posts only would be great thing for the forums especialy for people like me who follow them a bit more casualy and dont tend to trawl the all threads

    regarding info given

    id like to see more info on the time frame the next patch might follow. Nothing exact but it would be nice to know wether we should be thinking days. weeks or months

    i would also like to have a clearer idea as to what sort of things you intend to include and what we can expect to see in regards to future content. i dont think specifics are nessacery but i honsetly dont realy know what kind 0f content to expect in the slightest.
  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    I'm just "checking in" to let you all know that I'm still following along, I just don't have time at the moment to respond to anything that's been said so far.

    I'll probably leave this thread stickied for the next couple of days before letting it sit in the normal queue of forum threads, but that doesn't mean you should stop discussing ideas.

    Carry on!
  • pekirtpekirt Member Posts: 111
    edited May 2013
    In terms of information dispersal means, I agree with many of the posters that Twitter should not be the main channel. I want to mention one other argument in favor of this.

    You have the dubious honor of addressing a fanbase that (IMO) has a very wide demographic in terms of age. Folks who were young when they played the gold box FRP's picked up the BG franchise in their tweens. The series and its spinoffs were so good, they were hooked and played all infinity engine games, until the Solar came down and gave them a choice. Then they played again, now with all the new mods.

    Years later, BG:EE is announced, and they go and buy it out of nostalgia... and with the hopes of supporting the project so that a BG:3 will be made eventually. They will probably end up playing it with their grandkids, but still... They want a game that doesn't boastfully present 60 hours of playtime as a very deep, involving, varied story. They want to look forward to a time when they will step out of their door and not be back for 250+ hours of playtime, with a tired and satisfied (and toothless!) grin on their faces, as they did once before.

    Those folks remember a time that a mobile phone meant carrying around a very heavy suitcase. They may have a twitter account, but actively checking it every two hours is another thing.

    ;-)

    (edit: sp)
  • Troodon80Troodon80 Member, Developer Posts: 4,110
    pekirt said:

    Those folks remember a time that a mobile phone meant carrying around a very heavy suitcase. They may have a twitter account, but actively checking it every two hours is another thing.

    I have a Twitter account and I actively check it about once every two months.
  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    I have a Twitter account too ( @DPennyway ), but I rarely use it. I can definitely empathize with those who don't check Trent's twitter every day. :)
  • EntropyXIIEntropyXII Member Posts: 656
    Personally I think you guys are doing just fine. A monthly update would be good, but from what I can see you guys are prepared to answer any queries for the most part - I wouldn't underestimate the value of that to any gamer/fan. Too many 'faceless' game developers about these days.

    As for twitter... well I try to use it sometimes - but I kind of feel like a stalker. Why am I interested in what celebrities eat for breakfast again...? Aha! That's right - because It probably would cost more than what i'd eat all week.

    #21stcenturyentertainment
  • quiner87quiner87 Member Posts: 5
    Ok I didn't read all the posts up until this point, but the type of transparency I am looking for is expressed by those working on Project eternity. Just going to their Kickstarter page and scrolling through the updates page really shows me what is being worked on, who is working on it, and the progress made so far.
    Additionally, I receive an email with each update that they post, providing an additional sense of being connected with the development of that game. I don't really feel connected to the development of this game at all, and I really think updates (every 2 weeks to a month) sent directly to my email would totally change that situation. I'm sorry, but Tweeting (less than 140 characters mind you) really does not cut it with me, and comes off as slightly lazy (but I know you are all very busy!).
  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    Obsidian is helped by those email updates being sent through Kickstarter, though I agree that their updates every so often are great to read.
  • HeadbombHeadbomb Member Posts: 213
    #1: When does a developer reveal too much about a project (be it a bug, a feature, or an entire game)? How can developers avoid saturating the community with information while still keeping people informed?

    * For new games, I feel that it's fine to talk about pretty much everything except story and spoilers. Gameplay mechanics can be talked about, but mostly in generalities. For example, if CD Projekt Red, between Witcher 1 and Witcher 2, said that they were shifting swordplay from timed-click "combos" mechanics to a more dynamic target + 1 click = 1 blow + parry + dodge, that would have been fine. But going something like "We played with things a bit, and we felt that 75% damage reduction on a parry was too much, so we nerfed it to 50%" or something, that's really details we can't appreciate because we haven't played the game.

    * For released games, then everything's on the table, keeping in mind that some people still haven't played the game, so spoilers should be minimized (writing "We're planning to have the Loredo introduction scene play out in a few more different ways" is fine, but writing "We're planning on making it possible to let Dandelion and Zoltan Chivay die on the gallows" would not be). Likewise letting people know what features you're trying to add is fine (next patch should contain inventory improvements, UI tweaks such as bomb and dagger counters on the HUD, we're nerfing Quen, etc...) is all fine. The more we know, the better. ETAs for patch are appreciated, but should be kept somewhat vague ("probably within the week", "probably within the next two weeks") until it's certain ("in three days").

    * For games like BG:EE, where it's a very very old game, and the combat mechanics should match PnP as closely as possible, then again everything's on the table. There's little point in trying to keep things secret, unless there are doubts about whether it's feasable to implement a feature or not. Again, the more people know, the better. Knowing that some awesome feature is coming in the next patch is a lot more reassuring than not knowing what's coming next. If you say "the next patch will be enormous" and it consists of 25,000 typo fixes, I would agree it's enormous, but that wasn't really what I was hoping for. So saying "the next patch will mostly consist of typo fixes", then I know not to hold my breath, and I won't withold playing just to wait on the new features. But if you say "the next patch should have 2 new joinable NPCs available in chapter 2 and 4, as well as bla bla bla bla", then I will be looking forward to the next patch a whole lot more, and might hold back from progressing beyond chapter 1. And in that case, I feel it would be fine to withold the specific of those NPCs (race, class, alignment, etc..) to keep the surprise fresh. And the longer I have to wait for a patch, the more I want to know what's in it.


    #2: What is the best way to disburse information about a project (be it a bug, a feature, or an entire game)? What are some possible pitfalls of doing it that way, and how might those pitfalls be avoided?

    * Like I said above, unless it's something containing spoilers, the more detail, the better. For new story related spoilers, then it's fine to keep it as vague as possible. For stuff already in the story, just be spoiler conscious for the new comers (use invisible text for the spoiler parts), or keep it vague enough so that newbies won't know what you're talking about, but people who played the game already will catch your drift. Everything else, bugs, features, UI improvements, rebalances, etc..., the more open a developper is about that stuff, the better it is for everyone. I have zero problem with a developper telling me "We're looking at improving the class customization, but we can't make any promise it'll be in the next patch." Likewise for "we're trying to do X, but it might not be feasable because of technical limitations, but we're investigating it". Or "We smashed bug X in the current build, and we're testing the fix. If things go well, it will be in the next patch. However, if more testing may be needed, then this specific fix will be delayed."
  • HeadbombHeadbomb Member Posts: 213
    edited May 2013
    Also, knowing what's coming up is also good reassurance that the devs aren't sitting on their asses doing nothing. Since I'm in the beta testing group, I'm keenly aware that this is not the case at Beamdog/Overhaul Games, but I could name several companies which have less-than-stellar follow ups on bug reports. If I was a new guy that just got BG:EE, and dropped by the forum because I'm running into an issue, I wouldn't know how good you guys are at fixing stuff, and I honestly wouldn't expect to get much more than the usual corporate "Your feedback is important to us, and has been forwarded to the appropriate department" pablum.
  • IecerintIecerint Member Posts: 431
    I think there's already a "What Has Been Announced" thread.
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