But sometimes i stop to think that we can reach a good amount of dmg resistance with other clases besides barbarian (i'm not speaking of dwarven defenders), you only lose 20% after all.
we can get with other classes the same ammount we can get with barbarians regard to items.
This previous post in this same thread made by miself make the sum of items that give damage resistance.
A barbarian reach 55% missile damage reduction, 40% slash and pierce damage reduction, 90% blunt damage reduction and 75% magic damage reduction. so any other class reach 35% missile damage reduction, 20% slash and pierce damage reduction, 70% blunt damage reduction and 75% magic damage reduction.
Any fighting class has access to Hardiness HLA (including Barbarians, what increase in 40% the damage reduction).
I was looking at the new classes and Dwarven Defenders make for a better class of damage reduction warriors, not only because they receive the same ammount of passive damage reduction as barbarians, and they receive this early (5% each 5 levels, stopping at level 20 with 20% while barbarians only receive their first passive dmg red in 10% at level 11, followed by another 5% at lvl 16 and other 5% at lvl 19), but mostly important, Dwarven Defenders get Defensive Stance ability (50% resistance to all forms of physical damage, plus +2 at saving throws and a penality to movment speed of 50%, something that i intent to test against ring of free action to see if i can nulify this).
I like barbarians and i'm still focused in finish my run with my chaotic neutral barbarian, against Berzerkers they can compete maybe, but they're not that overpower and other classes outmatch them as Dwarven Defenders.
I'm not sure I see your point about other classes and damage resistance, though. So they can use the same items as barbarians to get resistances. And? Barbarians will *still* have 20% more (since they can use the items, too), and resistance is on a completely linear scale, with no diminishing returns. 20% more is 20% more. In fact, if you push something over 100 (through Armor of Faith, for example, in the case of a dual barb-cleric) you actually get healed by attacks of that type.
As for DD, it's certainly quite good. They must be dwarves, though. That means they can't dual (assuming you allow barbarians to dual), and they'll also have less starting DEX, resulting in less AC. I think the penalty in EE is -2 DEX? So 16 instead of 18 would mean -2 worse AC. Still, they are probably the best "tank" in the game - which is unsurprising, given how good most of the newly added kits are in general.
Dwarven Defenders can go for full plate mails however, unlike barbarians that can go for splint mail, thus even with 16 dex they will get a lot better AC than Barbarians. Defensive stance + hardiness set all resistances to 90% without being needed any item for that. so with the dmg res items, everything physical would heal them.
The only disvantage to DDs are the lack of barbarian rage, but then strengh is easly achieved (in BG2) and constitution in dwarvens are already advanced (they can go for 19 in character creation).
Other class get 20% less but they have their own advantages.
1.) a berserker/cleric will have the same % as a barbarian. Or a Berserker /thief .
Now i did some test with Baldur's gate 1 to show you the difference. I used the best possible gear for all three (With the exception of the shield amulet, i'll do that later). All of these start with 19 STR and 19 CON.
Berserker Level 8
Full plate Ring of protection +2 Helm of Balduran Large shield +2 Gauntlets of weapon expertise Cloak of Balduran Long sword +2
-12 AC (Rage) 141 health APR 3 Thac0 1 +8 Damage (+2 Rage, +4 Grand Mastery +2 gloves of weapon expertise)
Kensai level 8
Ring of protection +2 Long sword +2
+1AC 121 health APR 3 (One handed) APR 4 (Two handed) Thac0 3 (One handed) Thac0 5/9 (Two handed) Damage +6 (+2 from Kensai, +4 from Grand Mastery)
Barbarian level 8
Studded leather armor +2 Helm of Balduran Large shield +2 Gauntlets of weapon expertise Cloak of Balduran Longsword +2
-2 AC (Rage) 139 health (!) You have less health than a berserker on level 8 APR 2½ Thac0 3 Damage 8 (+4 STR, +2 Specialization, +2 Gauntlets)
As you can see here. A level 8 berserker in BGEE has :
1.) Highest health 2.) Highest Thac0 3.) Highest AC (9 more than the barbarian) 4.) Sharing place of highest damage with the 23 str barbarian. 5.) Most immunities with Rage 6.) Best APR (Sharing with Kensai)
I think it's quite clear who is the best one in BG1. And if we look at BG 2
Berserker :
Higher damage Better rage Higher APR Dual class
Barbarian
20% Damage reduction More health
so i proved that your calculations are wrong with barbarian vs berserker hp in pal vs fighter thread
but i think you did another thing wrong because
THERE IS NO GRANDMASTERY IN BG1! (lvl 8 char can only get to ****) so another point wrong and that means -barb has higher dmg -barb has the same apr -higher hp in rages and without rage -if dwarf better ST
Also people grossly under value the speed boost. It's hard to literally calculate just how valuable it truly is in terms of damage reduction, since it basically makes you immune to melee damage (especially with a +1 or higher QS and * in 2hd style), unless the enemy is hasted, and piercing/missle have slews of items that can push AC vs them high enough that they're just as likely to get hit as vs a fully armored berserker, but due to greater speed, close the distance even faster (and since they don't need the boots of speed, you can wear the boots of avoidance instead, without sacrificing anything), reducing the number of ranged shots they can make before you're on top of them and smashing them into the ground.
Is why the lack of platemail doesn't matter at all...hell you can play a barb naked, like a kensai, and still outperform a berserker or kensai in survivability.
And the barb rage has better status effect immunities then the DD defensive stance, making them better then DD's (especially if you count the immunity to melee damage due to their boosted speed).
A lot of people can't wrap their head around the fact that barbarians are mobility fighters, they aren't meant to stand a take a beating. They are Raiders, masters of fighting in the open tundra and plains, guerilla warfare against more disciplined defensive legions. They're also very hardy from their hard living, so when they do take the occasional hits that get through on any one based on luck, they can afford them. The barbarian rage is just them focusing their strength and resolve, which is why it doesn't have a berserk chance (like the berserker's rage is supposed to). And it doesn't preclude their ability to think or fight tactically. They also don't exhaust themselves as a result.
Berserkers on the other hand go bat%^$& insane with rage and throw tactics to wind and try to overwhelm an opponent with raw fury, being unable to use ranged weapons, spellcasting, cannot retreat, and using tactics no more complicated then charge an enemy and swing at it till it's dead, and repeat until there's no visible targets in range, the rage ends, or they die trying (and are supposed to have a 30% chance per round of going completely out of control for the remainder of the rage attacking friend and foe alike until the rage ends or they fail a fear save which snaps them out of the rage immediately, but prevents the fear spell/effect. Seriously...just replacing the berserker's enrage with Minsc's berserk ability would make the kit almost PnP accurate..aside from the extra immunities they shouldn't have).
"Is why the lack of platemail doesn't matter at all...hell you can play a barb naked, like a kensai, and still outperform a berserker or kensai in survivability."
You must be dreaming here. You're playing someone that got D12 health and you don't want him to ever enter combat to tank. Why would i have a barbarian in my party if he can't take hits for my other team members? Why don't get a blade instead then to deal even more damage than the barbarian? Or a F/C , F/M that can tank better than the barbarian and do more damage? You're having a barbarian run away and poke the enemy. So you need a tank aswell as your barbarian, when you can get the berserker in a single package.
And you don't need a raider. You don't need someone that can hit and run, it's a spot taken up that is literarly useless.
F/M can do the same as a barbarian and tank aswell F/C can do the same as a barbarian and tank aswell Blade can do the same as a barbarian and tank aswell Berserker can do the same as a barbarian and tank aswell
See? Why would you pick a character with that much health and only use him to poke with?
And not only this. The blade got better AC than the barbarian (Blur) and can mirror image. Offensive spin gives him the extra APR and the maximum damage on attacks along with the +2 Damage +2 Thac0 makes him just as good in combat. Oh he can also identify... pick pocket.
There is absolutely no reason to pick a character that is ment to run in and hit and then run away again. When you can have a character that fights just as well and can tank.
And this isn't about PnP , this is is about the game. And in the game the berserker got a much better rage.
1.) a berserker/cleric will have the same % as a barbarian. Or a Berserker /thief .
Now i did some test with Baldur's gate 1 to show you the difference. I used the best possible gear for all three (With the exception of the shield amulet, i'll do that later). All of these start with 19 STR and 19 CON.
Berserker Level 8
Full plate Ring of protection +2 Helm of Balduran Large shield +2 Gauntlets of weapon expertise Cloak of Balduran Long sword +2
-12 AC (Rage) 141 health APR 3 Thac0 1 +8 Damage (+2 Rage, +4 Grand Mastery +2 gloves of weapon expertise)
Kensai level 8
Ring of protection +2 Long sword +2
+1AC 121 health APR 3 (One handed) APR 4 (Two handed) Thac0 3 (One handed) Thac0 5/9 (Two handed) Damage +6 (+2 from Kensai, +4 from Grand Mastery)
Barbarian level 8
Studded leather armor +2 Helm of Balduran Large shield +2 Gauntlets of weapon expertise Cloak of Balduran Longsword +2
-2 AC (Rage) 139 health (!) You have less health than a berserker on level 8 APR 2½ Thac0 3 Damage 8 (+4 STR, +2 Specialization, +2 Gauntlets)
As you can see here. A level 8 berserker in BGEE has :
1.) Highest health 2.) Highest Thac0 3.) Highest AC (9 more than the barbarian) 4.) Sharing place of highest damage with the 23 str barbarian. 5.) Most immunities with Rage 6.) Best APR (Sharing with Kensai)
I think it's quite clear who is the best one in BG1. And if we look at BG 2
Berserker :
Higher damage Better rage Higher APR Dual class
Barbarian
20% Damage reduction More health
so i proved that your calculations are wrong with barbarian vs berserker hp in pal vs fighter thread
but i think you did another thing wrong because
THERE IS NO GRANDMASTERY IN BG1! (lvl 8 char can only get to ****) so another point wrong and that means -barb has higher dmg -barb has the same apr -higher hp in rages and without rage -if dwarf better ST
I forgot about the grand mastery as i normally play trilogy.
Barbarian
- 1 more health than the berserker - 1 more damage than the berserker - Same APR as the berserker
Berserker
- Better rage than the barbarian - Much better AC than the barbarian - Better Thac0 than the barbarian - Same APR as the barbarian - Don't need to be a dwarf as there is nothing that the rage doesn't cover so don't need saving throws - Can dual class
The berserker is still better in BG1 than the barbarian. And MUCH better in BG2 than the barbarian.
And about the damage reduction
Cleric -> Armor of faith (20%) Thief -> Use jan jansens armor (20%) Barbarian -> From class (20%) Paladin -> Armor of faith (20%)
So if you're playing a paladin, F/C, F/T you can have the same reduction the barbarian has.
[Edited] :
The barbarian and Kensai are niché characters that you have to micromanage and keep away from getting hit in combat. You do this to get that 1 more damage than the berserker who you can throw into the middle of combat to tank and deal awesome damage.
NPC1 (Barbarian) NPC2 (Tank)
NPC1 (Berserker) NPC2 (?????)
I have to say this discussion is getting silly. It's alright that you want to defend the Kensai and the Barbarian, but if you're going to use arguments like the fact that you will never get hit, or that your naked kensai/ Barbarian is more survivable than the berserker with -12 AC and immunity to CC. Then i have to lift my hat now and say "Thank you for the discussion" because there is really no reason for me to spend more time trying to tell you otherwise.
-barbarian is still more resistan than berserker -if you are playing f/c barbarian has the same damage and faster apr progression -and i told you you were wrong with hp -ac in bg2 hardly matters because they will hit you and 20% natural DR is better than big ac anyway -well his rage is worse because he will get less dmg and less health
ofc bg2 is different because dualing with mage or cleric get you so many buffs but this is hardly barb vs berserker when mage is the best class in the game you could say thief/mage is better than berserker because it would be easier to tank with his spells
-barbarian is still more resistan than berserker -if you are playing f/c barbarian has the same damage and faster apr progression -and i told you you were wrong with hp -ac in bg2 hardly matters because they will hit you and 20% natural DR is better than big ac anyway -well his rage is worse because he will get less dmg and less health
ofc bg2 is different because dualing with mage or cleric get you so many buffs but this is hardly barb vs berserker when mage is the best class in the game you could say thief/mage is better than berserker because it would be easier to tank with his spells
1.) We're talking about BG1/BGEE here and they don't get any resistance there.
2.) The C/F has much better survivability trough divine spells. Better Thac0 same APR not to mention he can use a full plate and ring of protection + 2.
3.) I said that you were correct, the barbarian has 1 more health on level 8.
4.) We're talking about BG1 here and the berserker gets much more damage in BG2 and you can do fine without 20% damage reduction. And if you want you can dual class your berserker to a cleric or thief and have the same reduction + much better damage.
5.) In BG1 the rage gives him the same Thac0 and 2 less damage than the barbarians. It gives him 4 more AC and more health up to level 7 and 1 less health on level 8.
So the rage isn't worse.
Barbarian
1 more health (level 8) 2 more damage -2 AC
Berserker
More immunities +2 AC
This is in BG1 . And i much rather have 4 more AC than 1 health and 2 damage. You're also forgetting weapon proficiency.
- 1 more health than the berserker - 1 more damage than the berserker - Same APR as the berserker
Berserker
- Better rage than the barbarian - Much better AC than the barbarian - Better Thac0 than the barbarian - Same APR as the barbarian - Don't need to be a dwarf as there is nothing that the rage doesn't cover so don't need saving throws - Can dual class
BG 2 :
Barbarian
- Damage reduction - More health - Minor speed increase
Berserker
- Better rage than the barbarian - Much better AC than the barbarian - Better Thac0 than the barbarian - Better damage than the barbarian - Better APR than the barbarian - Can dual class
This will be my last post in this thread. I have said the same thing in every post i have had on this subject and i don't think i can do anything to make you see otherwise. The proof is right here infront of you, it's up to you if you want to see it or not.
Dual-classing aside (which should be modded to allow it for Barbs anyway), I'm not sure I understand some your comparison.
- Berserker having better Rage
They both grant the same immunities, except for two: Berserkers are immune to feeblemind (irrelevant, nobody uses that) and imprisonment; imprisonment is used by a grand TWO enemies in the game, so yeah, it's a bonus but a fairly small one. And it does come at a cost, as the Barbarian rage tends to give you more damage and HP (at higher levels anyway), and does not come with a downside afterwards. It doesn't last as long, but it can be chained without a problem. The armor penalty it comes with is notable, but not significant (especially considering that Berserkers get one too, just afterwards).
- Berserker having much better AC
The only advantage in AC comes from being able to wear plate armor. Even discounting damage resistances (which I've shown before compensate for a lot of AC actually), the fact remains that some of the best armors in the game can in fact be worn by both Berserkers and Barbarians. The White Dragon Plate in particular comes to mind, as it is arguably the best armor in the game. Even before that, though, you can come very close in AC through use of highly enchanted leather/mail - certainly close enough for the damage resistance to outdo AC in performance.
- Both have same APR
That's only really true in BG1. Once Berserkers gain Grandmastery, they will in fact have more APR. This is perhaps the most significant difference between the two, as APR contributes substantially to damage output. Note that this also means a THAC0 difference in favor of the Berserker (as you mentioned), but that Barbarians have better THAC0 under Rage, and receive no hit penalty afterwards. Still, Berserker remains superior in damage output.
- Stacking of damage resistance
Jan's armor aside (very special case), there is something to be said for damage resistance that doesn't need to be activated, doesn't fall off, and can be stacked further with others like the ones you mentioned, if you allow dual-classing (and there is little reason you shouldn't; if you don't there is no reason for a discussion, Berserker wins instantly).
- Barbarians need to be micromanaged to avoid hits
Not even sure where to begin here. The whole point of using a Barbarian is because they tank so well. Yes they get hit more than Berserkers, but they also take less damage. In fact, them taking less damage is better than not getting hit, both because enemy THAC0 progression eventually overtakes your AC progression, and because some hits are unavoidable. You can get close enough in AC to statistically still be taking less damage overall if you account for damage resistance - and all that is not even going into the perhaps most problematic source of damage: magic. High HP is the only way to soak more magic damage, and Barbarians have the highest HP pools.
Note that this assumes a longer game, including BG2. For obvious reasons BG1 will favor Berserkers, as Barbarian damage reduction is level-based and won't even happen within BG1 levels.
Dual-classing aside (which should be modded to allow it for Barbs anyway), I'm not sure I understand some your comparison.
- Berserker having better Rage
They both grant the same immunities, except for two: Berserkers are immune to feeblemind (irrelevant, nobody uses that) and imprisonment; imprisonment is used by a grand TWO enemies in the game, so yeah, it's a bonus but a fairly small one. And it does come at a cost, as the Barbarian rage tends to give you more damage and HP (at higher levels anyway), and does not come with a downside afterwards. It doesn't last as long, but it can be chained without a problem. The armor penalty it comes with is notable, but not significant (especially considering that Berserkers get one too, just afterwards).
- Berserker having much better AC
The only advantage in AC comes from being able to wear plate armor. Even discounting damage resistances (which I've shown before compensate for a lot of AC actually), the fact remains that some of the best armors in the game can in fact be worn by both Berserkers and Barbarians. The White Dragon Plate in particular comes to mind, as it is arguably the best armor in the game. Even before that, though, you can come very close in AC through use of highly enchanted leather/mail - certainly close enough for the damage resistance to outdo AC in performance.
- Both have same APR
That's only really true in BG1. Once Berserkers gain Grandmastery, they will in fact have more APR. This is perhaps the most significant difference between the two, as APR contributes substantially to damage output. Note that this also means a THAC0 difference in favor of the Berserker (as you mentioned), but that Barbarians have better THAC0 under Rage, and receive no hit penalty afterwards. Still, Berserker remains superior in damage output.
- Stacking of damage resistance
Jan's armor aside (very special case), there is something to be said for damage resistance that doesn't need to be activated, doesn't fall off, and can be stacked further with others like the ones you mentioned, if you allow dual-classing (and there is little reason you shouldn't; if you don't there is no reason for a discussion, Berserker wins instantly).
- Barbarians need to be micromanaged to avoid hits
Not even sure where to begin here. The whole point of using a Barbarian is because they tank so well. Yes they get hit more than Berserkers, but they also take less damage. In fact, them taking less damage is better than not getting hit, both because enemy THAC0 progression eventually overtakes your AC progression, and because some hits are unavoidable. You can get close enough in AC to statistically still be taking less damage overall if you account for damage resistance - and all that is not even going into the perhaps most problematic source of damage: magic. High HP is the only way to soak more magic damage, and Barbarians have the highest HP pools.
Note that this assumes a longer game, including BG2. For obvious reasons BG1 will favor Berserkers, as Barbarian damage reduction is level-based and won't even happen within BG1 levels.
1.) There are four enemies in the original BG2 that use imprison. Irenicus, The imprisoned mage in underdark, Gaxx and the lich in Watchers keep.
2.) The barbarian get -2 AC when he uses his rage, the berserker get +2 AC when using his rage. So the berserker actually has 4 more AC without counting the bonus from full plate. And the barbarian has to use a magical armor while the berserker get 2 more AC from having ring of protection +2.
Baldur's gate 1 :
Barbarian
Drizzt mithril chain mail +4 (AC 1) -2 AC rage
Berserker
Full plate mail (AC 1) Ring of protection +2 (AC +2) Rage (AC +2)
So the berserker have 6 more AC there.
Baldur's gate 2 :
The berserker has better AC early game because of ring of protection +2 and full plate. If he dual classes he can aquire the same % damage reduction as the barbarian. And let's not forget he has much better damage aswell.
3.) We spoke about this and i mentioned the berserker has higher APR. But as Zur312 said the berserker can only get 4* in BG1 and the ½ apr sits on the last point (Grand mastery) So in BG1/BGEE they have the same amount of APR.
4.) The berserker has better Thac0 without rage and with rage. The STR from the barbarians rage grants him +2 Thac0 and the berserker gets +2 Thac0 from his rage. So the rage grants them the same amount of Thac0 except that the berserker got High mastery/Grand Mastery so he will have better Thaco in the end.
Rage on : Berserker got better Thac0 Rage off : Berserker got better Thac0
5.) Damage reduction is amazing when you stack it (Flail of defender, A certain helm, armor of faith etc) But the barbarian isn't the only one that can get high %. There are so many other ways to get good reduction aswell.
Armor of faith Jan jensens armor Hardiness Barbarian rage Items
6.) Damage reduction VS AC is only important in BG2. In BG1 the barbarian doesn't get any damage reduction at all. And in BG2 you get 20% at level 19 which is very late in the game. At the point your barbarian got his 20% reduction you should already have many other ways to get reduction, and you're almost at HLA (Hardiness)
The barbarian isn't much more survivable with 20% reduction. It's first when you reach the 40-80% reduction that it truly shines. This isn't something you'll get before late in the game. The earliest you can get 40% is flail of the defender and level 19 on your barbarian. Until that point AC is much better and easier to get. And when you're level 19 you have so good gear that the 20% more damage reduction you have on your barbarian isn't going to make that much of a difference with your berserker.
The dual classing is really the thing that is the big benefit for berserkers. The downside with it though is (unless you dual really late) you lose out on getting fighter HLA's.
With hardiness a barb will have better damage reduction than a berserker (at least not counting something like stoneskin).
The dual classing is really the thing that is the big benefit for berserkers. The downside with it though is (unless you dual really late) you lose out on getting fighter HLA's.
With hardiness a barb will have better damage reduction than a berserker (at least not counting something like stoneskin).
And you keep dodging the issue about their movement speed, which is a form of damage reduction. Just less obvious. Anyone with a movement speed bonus is a hit/fade character, automatically. Kensai have high up front damage, but can't take hits due to abysmal AC, so they also work best as hit and fade, but are extremely rough prior to boots of speed. BSing thieves are the same way, until you can zip away to rehide or at least get out of melee range to avoid getting flattened, you're taking a big risk back-stabbing, if it misses or the target survives or has a lot of friends.
The berserker is just a fighter....plays identical to it, except superior in every possible way, due to %^$&#& implementation of the kit's abilities and not making higher then specialization exclusive to true-class fighters.
Barbs don't become uber-tanks until high levels, their mid-high armor choices and slightly higher hp give them the ability to filter out most mook hits, while their high speed allows them to either minimize the amount of ranged shots an enemy can take at them (thus lowering the chance they crit and auto-hit you regardless of AC) and to kite melee characters to death, but you still don't want to hold the line with them, until they've stacked enough bonuses to become effectively invincible to all damage types except slashing.
The difference between a berserker and a barb is 1/2 an attack....that's it. And while the berserker will at some milestones deal slightly more damage and have slightly more hit....it doesn't matter. A warrior class, ANY warrior class, has thac0 to burn, hell, even thieves rarely miss when thac0 capped, except against the the big 4 -10 AC guys. And much the same problem the kensai has...except vs a handful of enemies, most of the damage you deal is overkill. (the vanilla game is not AT ALL balanced for power-gamed characters, the enemies are stated in a way that a character with average to above average scores can play just fine, while a power-gamed character faces-rolls everything).
For most all races except half-orcs, the barbarian has a MASSIVE damage damage advantage for over 3/4 of BG1. And they have a built-in boots of speed at creation. That alone makes them superior for BG1...at the end, sure...the berserker is competition...but it's the same deal as dual-classing, you waited until the last 5 minutes of the game (or even having to wait till the sequel) to get to play your character as envisioned...where's the fun in that?.
1.) ½ APR is 1 APR with Improved haste 2.) Put boots of speed on a berserker and he's got the same advantage as the barbarian. I don't see this as a huge bonus because anyone with haste, improved haste or boots of speed can get the same and better. This is also the reason the barbarian rage is much worse when you get to BG2 and later on in the game. When a character already has 25 STR the barbarian rage gives him/her nothing, while the berserker rage still grants 2 damage 2 Thac0
3.) 3/4 of BG1 the berserker has
1.) Higher health 2.) Much better AC 3.) Better Thac0 4.) More immunities
And how exactly do you get the barbarian to have "Massive" more damage? Let's look at it.
Where are you getting these magical numbers? I don't see "Massive" more damage. I see a difference of 2 damage. And this turns into even less damage once the Berserker get to level 6 and have High mastery. Then it's 1 more damage to the barbarian.
[Edited]: I use my melee powerhouses to tank and deal damage. I Don't need a built in speed on a fighter so he can run away or poke. As i said so many times a berserker can deal the same amount of damage while having much more survivability. That extra speed doesn't matter on a barbarian, while it would have been awesome on a rogue.
And once my mage hits mage level 3 spells then my party will always be hasted. So there that bonus goes out of the window aswell.
The berserker is the only class in the game that can have -14 AC in BG1.
-14 AC -140 health - Immune to all spells that take away the control of your character.
That is without doubt the strongest character you can have in BG1.
I don't really understand what you guys hope to learn in those threads, it obviously depends on what you use those classes for.
- In general? Berserk can dual-class, so it has far better (read it "stronger") possibilities.
- If Barbarian could dual to Mage too? Berserker would still be better for a really simple reason: Berserker's immunities and fighting skills fits perfectly with Mage. On the other hand, the Barbarian's damage reduction is utterly useless compared to a Stoneskin/PfMW/etc. Therefore, a Barbarian/Mage would just be a waste of XP in terms of powergaming.
- Who would win in a deathmatch between two highlevel Berserker and Barbarian? Barbarian of course.
I don't really understand what you guys hope to learn in those threads, it obviously depends on what you use those classes for.
- In general? Berserk can dual-class, so it has far better (read it "stronger") possibilities.
- If Barbarian could dual to Mage too? Berserker would still be better for a really simple point: Berserker's immunities a fighting skills fits perfectly with Mage. On the other hand, the Barbarian's damage reduction is utterly useless compared to a Stoneskin/PfMW/etc. Therefore, a Barbarian/Mage would just be a waste of XP in terms of powergaming.
- Who would win in a deathmatch between two highlevel Berserker and Barbarian? Barbarian of course.
I agree with you on all the points except the last one.
"- Who would win in a deathmatch between two highlevel Berserker and Barbarian? Barbarian of course"
From level 1 to level 40 the berserker would win this.
½ APR and 5 more damage will let the berserker win this over the 20% damage reduction barbarian.
1.) Higher AC 2.) Better Thaco 3.) If you hit around 25 damage a hit, then 5 damage is 20% so it evens out here. Add the ½ APR ontop of that and the berserker will win. 4.) ½ APR is 1 APR with improved haste.
------------------------------------- Level 1
Berserker get 15 health from his rage.
Level 9
Berserker get grand mastery while barbarian only have 3 more health against the berserkers ½ more APR and same damage.
Level 15+
The berserker will be able to get 25 strength which nulls the barbarians bonus from rage while you still get +2 damage and Thac0 from your own rage.
Both characters should be using FoA in main hand. And the 1 extra APR for the berserker will mean over 20 more damage a round, most of it being elemental so goes through your damage reduction.
This means the barbarian will deal around 23-28 physical + 10 elemental damage to the berserker.
Now add in gaxx for improved haste and the berserker has 1 more APR.
The only saving grace of the barbarian here is his + to health.
- Same damage (Included resistance) - Berserker has better Thac0 - Berserker has better AC - Berserker has 1 APR more
- Same damage (Included resistance) - More health
And yes the barbarian can stack more damage reduction, but so can the berserker. The barbarian will only have 20% more damage reduction against a pure berserker.
The really sad thing is that end game the Barbarian shouldn't even use his rage against the berserker. He will get 25 STR through other means and the rage will only give him -2 AC. So he would only weak himself from using rage.
@SionVI No man, its not a matter of apr. 20%? You have to add +40% from HLA and +20% from Defender of Eastheaven to have the real % you have to deal with. 80% damage reduction is better than -> 5 more damage (even if you pump up this Berserker to 60% damage reduction). In fact, they are not +5 damage, but the 80% of it
As for the ½ APR, at lvl40 they will have so many GWA and WA to stay at 10apr for all the match.
Side note: a Berserker can't kite a Barbarian because A) the latter is faster, and a Barb with a Belt of Innertial Barrier it reaches total immunity vs missiles.
@SionVI No man, its not a matter of apr. 20%? You have to add +40% from HLA and +20% from Defender of Eastheaven to have the real % you have to deal with. 80% damage reduction is better than -> 5 more damage (even if you pump up this Berserker to 60% damage reduction). As for the ½ APR, at lvl40 they will have so many GWA and WA to stay at 10apr for all the match.
Side note: a Berserker can't kite a Barbarian because A) the latter is faster, and a Barb with a Belt of Innertial Barrier it reaches total immunity vs missiles.
The difference is still 20% damage reduction which happens to be 5 damage. The main damage from FoA +5 is the elemental damage, which goes through damage reduction.
20% Damage reduction is not better than +5 damage and 1 APR (Improved haste) with FoA +5 which happens to be the most damaging weapon in the game.
Anything you pick for HLA can be taken by the berserker aswell.
Why in the world would i try to kite a barbarian? I stand toe to toe with him and beat his face in.
[Edited] : You can only use 1 HLA at a time. So if you use whirlwind you lose out on hardiness etc. So the berserker will always have 1 more APR unless you're using greater whirlwind.
@SionIV Gimme 5min, I'm making a video of this 1vs1. So we will end this once and for all Tell me what do u want to equip your Berserker with, I'll equip the Barbarian. The bets are on!
how do u get 25 str as berserker if you dual wield with foa and defender of eastheaven? your calculatuions are wrong? again?
and now barbarian has 3 more hp? that is so nice so you added something to this weird "1" and now it is 3?
It would be lovely if you read what i wrote.
On level 8 the barbarian has 1 more health, which we had in the other thread. Now the fact is that i wrote level 9(!) now whch makes it 3 more health.
Level 8 barbarian : 1 more health Level 9 barbarian : 3 more health.
For the 25 str?
You use girdle of frost or fire giant strength and DuHM.
And would you please refrain from saying i'm wrong AGAIN when i was only wrong once. Which was miss calculations on my part and a modded game.
I'm trying to be polite here and i can't help but feel you're taking this a little personal?
now he won't be 3 more hp i told you
if you are using girdle of strength barbarian is now ahead because girdle of magic resistance gives him 50% dr from magic that your berserken can not wear in the same time or he will lose his str and be less effective in combat and duhm + those girdles is impossible because they are later on in the game and you lost your duhm it is not my fault you are skewing everything towards berserker in terms of this thread
@SionIV Gimme 5min, I'm making a video of this 1vs1. So we will end this once and for all Tell me what do u want to equip your Berserker with, I'll equip the Barbarian. The bets are on!
1.) This is still theory and it could go anyway in real play. My berserker could deal a critical on every single hit, or the other way around. But i'll give you a list.
Helm of Balduran Amulet of Seldarine Full plate Gargoyle boots (Stoneskin) Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization Cloak of protection +2 (Use improved invinsibility for +4 AC) Girdle of fire giant strength Ring of Gaxx Ring of the ram
Flail of Ages +5 / Defender of Easthaven <- Main Blackrazor / Belm Ravager
2.) As you see it's totally luck dependant when you make a game like that.
well if he test this 100 times and barb wins 80% we will know who is better ... lol
you can't cast improved invisibility because barbarian will be 1 round ahead with hardiness or other hla so this is dumb
Ofcourse you'll be allowed to prebuff. And i don't mind changing the full plate + cloak of protection for Drow full plate +5 then i don't have to pre buff but will lose out on 1 AC.
[Edited] : Use the improved haste on the cloak of protection +2 as it's much longer than the one on Gaxx.
Comments
This previous post in this same thread made by miself make the sum of items that give damage resistance.
A barbarian reach 55% missile damage reduction, 40% slash and pierce damage reduction, 90% blunt damage reduction and 75% magic damage reduction. so any other class reach 35% missile damage reduction, 20% slash and pierce damage reduction, 70% blunt damage reduction and 75% magic damage reduction.
Any fighting class has access to Hardiness HLA (including Barbarians, what increase in 40% the damage reduction).
I was looking at the new classes and Dwarven Defenders make for a better class of damage reduction warriors, not only because they receive the same ammount of passive damage reduction as barbarians, and they receive this early (5% each 5 levels, stopping at level 20 with 20% while barbarians only receive their first passive dmg red in 10% at level 11, followed by another 5% at lvl 16 and other 5% at lvl 19), but mostly important, Dwarven Defenders get Defensive Stance ability (50% resistance to all forms of physical damage, plus +2 at saving throws and a penality to movment speed of 50%, something that i intent to test against ring of free action to see if i can nulify this).
I like barbarians and i'm still focused in finish my run with my chaotic neutral barbarian, against Berzerkers they can compete maybe, but they're not that overpower and other classes outmatch them as Dwarven Defenders.
As for DD, it's certainly quite good. They must be dwarves, though. That means they can't dual (assuming you allow barbarians to dual), and they'll also have less starting DEX, resulting in less AC. I think the penalty in EE is -2 DEX? So 16 instead of 18 would mean -2 worse AC. Still, they are probably the best "tank" in the game - which is unsurprising, given how good most of the newly added kits are in general.
The only disvantage to DDs are the lack of barbarian rage, but then strengh is easly achieved (in BG2) and constitution in dwarvens are already advanced (they can go for 19 in character creation).
Other class get 20% less but they have their own advantages.
but i think you did another thing wrong because
THERE IS NO GRANDMASTERY IN BG1! (lvl 8 char can only get to ****)
so another point wrong
and that means
-barb has higher dmg
-barb has the same apr
-higher hp in rages and without rage
-if dwarf better ST
Is why the lack of platemail doesn't matter at all...hell you can play a barb naked, like a kensai, and still outperform a berserker or kensai in survivability.
And the barb rage has better status effect immunities then the DD defensive stance, making them better then DD's (especially if you count the immunity to melee damage due to their boosted speed).
A lot of people can't wrap their head around the fact that barbarians are mobility fighters, they aren't meant to stand a take a beating. They are Raiders, masters of fighting in the open tundra and plains, guerilla warfare against more disciplined defensive legions. They're also very hardy from their hard living, so when they do take the occasional hits that get through on any one based on luck, they can afford them. The barbarian rage is just them focusing their strength and resolve, which is why it doesn't have a berserk chance (like the berserker's rage is supposed to). And it doesn't preclude their ability to think or fight tactically. They also don't exhaust themselves as a result.
Berserkers on the other hand go bat%^$& insane with rage and throw tactics to wind and try to overwhelm an opponent with raw fury, being unable to use ranged weapons, spellcasting, cannot retreat, and using tactics no more complicated then charge an enemy and swing at it till it's dead, and repeat until there's no visible targets in range, the rage ends, or they die trying (and are supposed to have a 30% chance per round of going completely out of control for the remainder of the rage attacking friend and foe alike until the rage ends or they fail a fear save which snaps them out of the rage immediately, but prevents the fear spell/effect. Seriously...just replacing the berserker's enrage with Minsc's berserk ability would make the kit almost PnP accurate..aside from the extra immunities they shouldn't have).
i think i have seen something like mod making berserker/barbarian different so they become much different (now they are pretty much the same)
You must be dreaming here. You're playing someone that got D12 health and you don't want him to ever enter combat to tank. Why would i have a barbarian in my party if he can't take hits for my other team members? Why don't get a blade instead then to deal even more damage than the barbarian? Or a F/C , F/M that can tank better than the barbarian and do more damage? You're having a barbarian run away and poke the enemy. So you need a tank aswell as your barbarian, when you can get the berserker in a single package.
And you don't need a raider. You don't need someone that can hit and run, it's a spot taken up that is literarly useless.
F/M can do the same as a barbarian and tank aswell
F/C can do the same as a barbarian and tank aswell
Blade can do the same as a barbarian and tank aswell
Berserker can do the same as a barbarian and tank aswell
See? Why would you pick a character with that much health and only use him to poke with?
And not only this. The blade got better AC than the barbarian (Blur) and can mirror image. Offensive spin gives him the extra APR and the maximum damage on attacks along with the +2 Damage +2 Thac0 makes him just as good in combat. Oh he can also identify... pick pocket.
There is absolutely no reason to pick a character that is ment to run in and hit and then run away again. When you can have a character that fights just as well and can tank.
And this isn't about PnP , this is is about the game. And in the game the berserker got a much better rage. I forgot about the grand mastery as i normally play trilogy.
Barbarian
- 1 more health than the berserker
- 1 more damage than the berserker
- Same APR as the berserker
Berserker
- Better rage than the barbarian
- Much better AC than the barbarian
- Better Thac0 than the barbarian
- Same APR as the barbarian
- Don't need to be a dwarf as there is nothing that the rage doesn't cover so don't need saving throws
- Can dual class
The berserker is still better in BG1 than the barbarian. And MUCH better in BG2 than the barbarian.
And about the damage reduction
Cleric -> Armor of faith (20%)
Thief -> Use jan jansens armor (20%)
Barbarian -> From class (20%)
Paladin -> Armor of faith (20%)
So if you're playing a paladin, F/C, F/T you can have the same reduction the barbarian has.
[Edited] :
The barbarian and Kensai are niché characters that you have to micromanage and keep away from getting hit in combat. You do this to get that 1 more damage than the berserker who you can throw into the middle of combat to tank and deal awesome damage.
NPC1 (Barbarian)
NPC2 (Tank)
NPC1 (Berserker)
NPC2 (?????)
I have to say this discussion is getting silly. It's alright that you want to defend the Kensai and the Barbarian, but if you're going to use arguments like the fact that you will never get hit, or that your naked kensai/ Barbarian is more survivable than the berserker with -12 AC and immunity to CC. Then i have to lift my hat now and say "Thank you for the discussion" because there is really no reason for me to spend more time trying to tell you otherwise.
-if you are playing f/c barbarian has the same damage and faster apr progression
-and i told you you were wrong with hp
-ac in bg2 hardly matters because they will hit you and 20% natural DR is better than big ac anyway
-well his rage is worse because he will get less dmg and less health
ofc bg2 is different because dualing with mage or cleric get you so many buffs but this is hardly barb vs berserker when mage is the best class in the game
you could say thief/mage is better than berserker because it would be easier to tank with his spells
2.) The C/F has much better survivability trough divine spells. Better Thac0 same APR not to mention he can use a full plate and ring of protection + 2.
3.) I said that you were correct, the barbarian has 1 more health on level 8.
4.) We're talking about BG1 here and the berserker gets much more damage in BG2 and you can do fine without 20% damage reduction. And if you want you can dual class your berserker to a cleric or thief and have the same reduction + much better damage.
5.) In BG1 the rage gives him the same Thac0 and 2 less damage than the barbarians. It gives him 4 more AC and more health up to level 7 and 1 less health on level 8.
So the rage isn't worse.
Barbarian
1 more health (level 8)
2 more damage
-2 AC
Berserker
More immunities
+2 AC
This is in BG1 . And i much rather have 4 more AC than 1 health and 2 damage. You're also forgetting weapon proficiency.
---------------------------------------------------
BG 1 :
Barbarian
- 1 more health than the berserker
- 1 more damage than the berserker
- Same APR as the berserker
Berserker
- Better rage than the barbarian
- Much better AC than the barbarian
- Better Thac0 than the barbarian
- Same APR as the barbarian
- Don't need to be a dwarf as there is nothing that the rage doesn't cover so don't need saving throws
- Can dual class
BG 2 :
Barbarian
- Damage reduction
- More health
- Minor speed increase
Berserker
- Better rage than the barbarian
- Much better AC than the barbarian
- Better Thac0 than the barbarian
- Better damage than the barbarian
- Better APR than the barbarian
- Can dual class
This will be my last post in this thread. I have said the same thing in every post i have had on this subject and i don't think i can do anything to make you see otherwise. The proof is right here infront of you, it's up to you if you want to see it or not.
- Berserker having better Rage
They both grant the same immunities, except for two: Berserkers are immune to feeblemind (irrelevant, nobody uses that) and imprisonment; imprisonment is used by a grand TWO enemies in the game, so yeah, it's a bonus but a fairly small one. And it does come at a cost, as the Barbarian rage tends to give you more damage and HP (at higher levels anyway), and does not come with a downside afterwards. It doesn't last as long, but it can be chained without a problem. The armor penalty it comes with is notable, but not significant (especially considering that Berserkers get one too, just afterwards).
- Berserker having much better AC
The only advantage in AC comes from being able to wear plate armor. Even discounting damage resistances (which I've shown before compensate for a lot of AC actually), the fact remains that some of the best armors in the game can in fact be worn by both Berserkers and Barbarians. The White Dragon Plate in particular comes to mind, as it is arguably the best armor in the game. Even before that, though, you can come very close in AC through use of highly enchanted leather/mail - certainly close enough for the damage resistance to outdo AC in performance.
- Both have same APR
That's only really true in BG1. Once Berserkers gain Grandmastery, they will in fact have more APR. This is perhaps the most significant difference between the two, as APR contributes substantially to damage output. Note that this also means a THAC0 difference in favor of the Berserker (as you mentioned), but that Barbarians have better THAC0 under Rage, and receive no hit penalty afterwards. Still, Berserker remains superior in damage output.
- Stacking of damage resistance
Jan's armor aside (very special case), there is something to be said for damage resistance that doesn't need to be activated, doesn't fall off, and can be stacked further with others like the ones you mentioned, if you allow dual-classing (and there is little reason you shouldn't; if you don't there is no reason for a discussion, Berserker wins instantly).
- Barbarians need to be micromanaged to avoid hits
Not even sure where to begin here. The whole point of using a Barbarian is because they tank so well. Yes they get hit more than Berserkers, but they also take less damage. In fact, them taking less damage is better than not getting hit, both because enemy THAC0 progression eventually overtakes your AC progression, and because some hits are unavoidable. You can get close enough in AC to statistically still be taking less damage overall if you account for damage resistance - and all that is not even going into the perhaps most problematic source of damage: magic. High HP is the only way to soak more magic damage, and Barbarians have the highest HP pools.
Note that this assumes a longer game, including BG2. For obvious reasons BG1 will favor Berserkers, as Barbarian damage reduction is level-based and won't even happen within BG1 levels.
2.) The barbarian get -2 AC when he uses his rage, the berserker get +2 AC when using his rage. So the berserker actually has 4 more AC without counting the bonus from full plate. And the barbarian has to use a magical armor while the berserker get 2 more AC from having ring of protection +2.
Baldur's gate 1 :
Barbarian
Drizzt mithril chain mail +4 (AC 1)
-2 AC rage
Berserker
Full plate mail (AC 1)
Ring of protection +2 (AC +2)
Rage (AC +2)
So the berserker have 6 more AC there.
Baldur's gate 2 :
The berserker has better AC early game because of ring of protection +2 and full plate. If he dual classes he can aquire the same % damage reduction as the barbarian. And let's not forget he has much better damage aswell.
3.) We spoke about this and i mentioned the berserker has higher APR. But as Zur312 said the berserker can only get 4* in BG1 and the ½ apr sits on the last point (Grand mastery) So in BG1/BGEE they have the same amount of APR.
4.) The berserker has better Thac0 without rage and with rage. The STR from the barbarians rage grants him +2 Thac0 and the berserker gets +2 Thac0 from his rage. So the rage grants them the same amount of Thac0 except that the berserker got High mastery/Grand Mastery so he will have better Thaco in the end.
Rage on : Berserker got better Thac0
Rage off : Berserker got better Thac0
5.) Damage reduction is amazing when you stack it (Flail of defender, A certain helm, armor of faith etc) But the barbarian isn't the only one that can get high %. There are so many other ways to get good reduction aswell.
Armor of faith
Jan jensens armor
Hardiness
Barbarian rage
Items
6.) Damage reduction VS AC is only important in BG2. In BG1 the barbarian doesn't get any damage reduction at all. And in BG2 you get 20% at level 19 which is very late in the game. At the point your barbarian got his 20% reduction you should already have many other ways to get reduction, and you're almost at HLA (Hardiness)
The barbarian isn't much more survivable with 20% reduction. It's first when you reach the 40-80% reduction that it truly shines. This isn't something you'll get before late in the game. The earliest you can get 40% is flail of the defender and level 19 on your barbarian. Until that point AC is much better and easier to get. And when you're level 19 you have so good gear that the 20% more damage reduction you have on your barbarian isn't going to make that much of a difference with your berserker.
[Edited] Defender of Easthaven.*
With hardiness a barb will have better damage reduction than a berserker (at least not counting something like stoneskin).
- Better damage
- Better Thac0
- Better rage
- Higher APR
- Grand mastery
And if you dual class as you mentioned you get the 20%.
The berserker is just a fighter....plays identical to it, except superior in every possible way, due to %^$&#& implementation of the kit's abilities and not making higher then specialization exclusive to true-class fighters.
Barbs don't become uber-tanks until high levels, their mid-high armor choices and slightly higher hp give them the ability to filter out most mook hits, while their high speed allows them to either minimize the amount of ranged shots an enemy can take at them (thus lowering the chance they crit and auto-hit you regardless of AC) and to kite melee characters to death, but you still don't want to hold the line with them, until they've stacked enough bonuses to become effectively invincible to all damage types except slashing.
The difference between a berserker and a barb is 1/2 an attack....that's it. And while the berserker will at some milestones deal slightly more damage and have slightly more hit....it doesn't matter. A warrior class, ANY warrior class, has thac0 to burn, hell, even thieves rarely miss when thac0 capped, except against the the big 4 -10 AC guys. And much the same problem the kensai has...except vs a handful of enemies, most of the damage you deal is overkill. (the vanilla game is not AT ALL balanced for power-gamed characters, the enemies are stated in a way that a character with average to above average scores can play just fine, while a power-gamed character faces-rolls everything).
For most all races except half-orcs, the barbarian has a MASSIVE damage damage advantage for over 3/4 of BG1. And they have a built-in boots of speed at creation. That alone makes them superior for BG1...at the end, sure...the berserker is competition...but it's the same deal as dual-classing, you waited until the last 5 minutes of the game (or even having to wait till the sequel) to get to play your character as envisioned...where's the fun in that?.
2.) Put boots of speed on a berserker and he's got the same advantage as the barbarian. I don't see this as a huge bonus because anyone with haste, improved haste or boots of speed can get the same and better. This is also the reason the barbarian rage is much worse when you get to BG2 and later on in the game. When a character already has 25 STR the barbarian rage gives him/her nothing, while the berserker rage still grants 2 damage 2 Thac0
3.) 3/4 of BG1 the berserker has
1.) Higher health
2.) Much better AC
3.) Better Thac0
4.) More immunities
And how exactly do you get the barbarian to have "Massive" more damage? Let's look at it.
Barbarian rage : +4 Damage
Berserker rage : +2 Damage
Where are you getting these magical numbers? I don't see "Massive" more damage. I see a difference of 2 damage. And this turns into even less damage once the Berserker get to level 6 and have High mastery. Then it's 1 more damage to the barbarian.
[Edited]: I use my melee powerhouses to tank and deal damage. I Don't need a built in speed on a fighter so he can run away or poke. As i said so many times a berserker can deal the same amount of damage while having much more survivability. That extra speed doesn't matter on a barbarian, while it would have been awesome on a rogue.
And once my mage hits mage level 3 spells then my party will always be hasted. So there that bonus goes out of the window aswell.
The berserker is the only class in the game that can have -14 AC in BG1.
-14 AC
-140 health
- Immune to all spells that take away the control of your character.
That is without doubt the strongest character you can have in BG1.
I don't really understand what you guys hope to learn in those threads, it obviously depends on what you use those classes for.
- In general?
Berserk can dual-class, so it has far better (read it "stronger") possibilities.
- If Barbarian could dual to Mage too?
Berserker would still be better for a really simple reason: Berserker's immunities and fighting skills fits perfectly with Mage. On the other hand, the Barbarian's damage reduction is utterly useless compared to a Stoneskin/PfMW/etc.
Therefore, a Barbarian/Mage would just be a waste of XP in terms of powergaming.
- Who would win in a deathmatch between two highlevel Berserker and Barbarian?
Barbarian of course.
"- Who would win in a deathmatch between two highlevel Berserker and Barbarian?
Barbarian of course"
From level 1 to level 40 the berserker would win this.
½ APR and 5 more damage will let the berserker win this over the 20% damage reduction barbarian.
1.) Higher AC
2.) Better Thaco
3.) If you hit around 25 damage a hit, then 5 damage is 20% so it evens out here. Add the ½ APR ontop of that and the berserker will win.
4.) ½ APR is 1 APR with improved haste.
-------------------------------------
Level 1
Berserker get 15 health from his rage.
Level 9
Berserker get grand mastery while barbarian only have 3 more health against the berserkers ½ more APR and same damage.
Level 15+
The berserker will be able to get 25 strength which nulls the barbarians bonus from rage while you still get +2 damage and Thac0 from your own rage.
+2 Damage (rage)
+3 Damage (Grand mastery)
½ APR (Grand mastery)
Both characters should be using FoA in main hand. And the 1 extra APR for the berserker will mean over 20 more damage a round, most of it being elemental so goes through your damage reduction.
Str : +14 damage
Rage : +2 damage
Grand mastery : +5 damage
FoA + 5 : 1d6 + 6
1d6 + 27 damage physical + 10 elemental.
This means the barbarian will take 5.6-6.6 less damage per attack. So the berserker deals around 27 damage + 10 elemental.
Str :+ 14 damage
Weapon specialization : +2 Damage
FoA +5 : 1d6 + 6
1d6 + 22 physical damage + 10 elemental.
This means the barbarian will deal around 23-28 physical + 10 elemental damage to the berserker.
Now add in gaxx for improved haste and the berserker has 1 more APR.
The only saving grace of the barbarian here is his + to health.
- Same damage (Included resistance)
- Berserker has better Thac0
- Berserker has better AC
- Berserker has 1 APR more
- Same damage (Included resistance)
- More health
And yes the barbarian can stack more damage reduction, but so can the berserker. The barbarian will only have 20% more damage reduction against a pure berserker.
The really sad thing is that end game the Barbarian shouldn't even use his rage against the berserker. He will get 25 STR through other means and the rage will only give him -2 AC. So he would only weak himself from using rage.
No man, its not a matter of apr.
20%? You have to add +40% from HLA and +20% from Defender of Eastheaven to have the real % you have to deal with.
80% damage reduction is better than -> 5 more damage (even if you pump up this Berserker to 60% damage reduction).
In fact, they are not +5 damage, but the 80% of it
As for the ½ APR, at lvl40 they will have so many GWA and WA to stay at 10apr for all the match.
Side note: a Berserker can't kite a Barbarian because A) the latter is faster, and
your calculatuions are wrong? again?
and now barbarian has 3 more hp? that is so nice so you added something to this weird "1" and now it is 3?
Berserker 60% Damage reduction
The difference is still 20% damage reduction which happens to be 5 damage. The main damage from FoA +5 is the elemental damage, which goes through damage reduction.
20% Damage reduction is not better than +5 damage and 1 APR (Improved haste) with FoA +5 which happens to be the most damaging weapon in the game.
Anything you pick for HLA can be taken by the berserker aswell.
Why in the world would i try to kite a barbarian? I stand toe to toe with him and beat his face in.
[Edited] : You can only use 1 HLA at a time. So if you use whirlwind you lose out on hardiness etc. So the berserker will always have 1 more APR unless you're using greater whirlwind.
On level 8 the barbarian has 1 more health, which we had in the other thread. Now the fact is that i wrote level 9(!) now whch makes it 3 more health.
Level 8 barbarian : 1 more health
Level 9 barbarian : 3 more health.
For the 25 str?
You use girdle of frost or fire giant strength and DuHM.
And would you please refrain from saying i'm wrong AGAIN when i was only wrong once. Which was miss calculations on my part and a modded game.
I'm trying to be polite here and i can't help but feel you're taking this a little personal?
Gimme 5min, I'm making a video of this 1vs1. So we will end this once and for all
Tell me what do u want to equip your Berserker with, I'll equip the Barbarian.
The bets are on!
"To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women."
if you are using girdle of strength barbarian is now ahead because girdle of magic resistance gives him 50% dr from magic that your berserken can not wear in the same time or he will lose his str and be less effective in combat
and duhm + those girdles is impossible because they are later on in the game and you lost your duhm
it is not my fault you are skewing everything towards berserker in terms of this thread
Helm of Balduran
Amulet of Seldarine
Full plate
Gargoyle boots (Stoneskin)
Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization
Cloak of protection +2 (Use improved invinsibility for +4 AC)
Girdle of fire giant strength
Ring of Gaxx
Ring of the ram
Flail of Ages +5 / Defender of Easthaven <- Main
Blackrazor / Belm
Ravager
2.) As you see it's totally luck dependant when you make a game like that.
Thac0
Criticals
Level drain
Instant kill (Ravager)
It's all based on luck and anything could happen, but feel free to try it anyway.
[Edited] :
Whatever setup you will use, you'll still be behind .
1.) 5 damage
2.) 1 APR
3.) Atleast 5 AC (7 if you rage)
4.) Better Thac0
The HLA can save your APR but barbarian with Greater whirlwind will get destroyed by improved haste berserker with hardiness.
well if he test this 100 times and barb wins 80% we will know who is better ... lol
you can't cast improved invisibility because barbarian will be 1 round ahead with hardiness or other hla so this is dumb
[Edited] : Use the improved haste on the cloak of protection +2 as it's much longer than the one on Gaxx.