how do u get 25 str as berserker if you dual wield with foa and defender of eastheaven? your calculatuions are wrong? again?
and now barbarian has 3 more hp? that is so nice so you added something to this weird "1" and now it is 3?
It would be lovely if you read what i wrote.
On level 8 the barbarian has 1 more health, which we had in the other thread. Now the fact is that i wrote level 9(!) now whch makes it 3 more health.
Level 8 barbarian : 1 more health Level 9 barbarian : 3 more health.
For the 25 str?
You use girdle of frost or fire giant strength and DuHM.
And would you please refrain from saying i'm wrong AGAIN when i was only wrong once. Which was miss calculations on my part and a modded game.
I'm trying to be polite here and i can't help but feel you're taking this a little personal?
If you are going to bring up BG2 stuff then you lose DUHM post-spellhold. The difference in damage between the fire giant girdle and 25 strength is 4 (5 in the case of the frost giant girdle). When you factor in the extra 1/2 or full APR (depending on improved haste) and extra damage a berserker gets the berserker will still win here.
[Edited] : You can only use 1 HLA at a time. So if you use whirlwind you lose out on hardiness etc. So the berserker will always have 1 more APR unless you're using greater whirlwind.
At level 20 Hardiness lasts for a turn so it is possible to have more than one HLA going at once.
how do u get 25 str as berserker if you dual wield with foa and defender of eastheaven? your calculatuions are wrong? again?
and now barbarian has 3 more hp? that is so nice so you added something to this weird "1" and now it is 3?
It would be lovely if you read what i wrote.
On level 8 the barbarian has 1 more health, which we had in the other thread. Now the fact is that i wrote level 9(!) now whch makes it 3 more health.
Level 8 barbarian : 1 more health Level 9 barbarian : 3 more health.
For the 25 str?
You use girdle of frost or fire giant strength and DuHM.
And would you please refrain from saying i'm wrong AGAIN when i was only wrong once. Which was miss calculations on my part and a modded game.
I'm trying to be polite here and i can't help but feel you're taking this a little personal?
now he won't be 3 more hp i told you
if you are using girdle of strength barbarian is now ahead because girdle of magic resistance gives him 50% dr from magic that your berserken can not wear in the same time or he will lose his str and be less effective in combat and duhm + those girdles is impossible because they are later on in the game and you lost your duhm it is not my fault you are skewing everything towards berserker in terms of this thread
Its a good point about the girdle but I'm pretty sure the type of damage the girdle is limited in preventing is restricted to like Magic Missile and Horrid Wilting type damage. Not all spell damage.
well if he test this 100 times and barb wins 80% we will know who is better ... lol
you can't cast improved invisibility because barbarian will be 1 round ahead with hardiness or other hla so this is dumb
Ofcourse you'll be allowed to prebuff.
why would you allow prebuff for 2 fighters? they are not mages or clerics maybe barbarian would just drink 20 potions for resistance against fire cold lighting poison acid xd
how do u get 25 str as berserker if you dual wield with foa and defender of eastheaven? your calculatuions are wrong? again?
and now barbarian has 3 more hp? that is so nice so you added something to this weird "1" and now it is 3?
It would be lovely if you read what i wrote.
On level 8 the barbarian has 1 more health, which we had in the other thread. Now the fact is that i wrote level 9(!) now whch makes it 3 more health.
Level 8 barbarian : 1 more health Level 9 barbarian : 3 more health.
For the 25 str?
You use girdle of frost or fire giant strength and DuHM.
And would you please refrain from saying i'm wrong AGAIN when i was only wrong once. Which was miss calculations on my part and a modded game.
I'm trying to be polite here and i can't help but feel you're taking this a little personal?
If you are going to bring up BG2 stuff then you lose DUHM post-spellhold. The difference in damage between the fire giant girdle and 25 strength is 4 (5 in the case of the frost giant girdle). When you factor in the extra 1/2 or full APR (depending on improved haste) and extra damage a berserker gets the berserker will still win here.
[Edited] : You can only use 1 HLA at a time. So if you use whirlwind you lose out on hardiness etc. So the berserker will always have 1 more APR unless you're using greater whirlwind.
At level 20 Hardiness lasts for a turn so it is possible to have more than one HLA going at once.
how do u get 25 str as berserker if you dual wield with foa and defender of eastheaven? your calculatuions are wrong? again?
and now barbarian has 3 more hp? that is so nice so you added something to this weird "1" and now it is 3?
It would be lovely if you read what i wrote.
On level 8 the barbarian has 1 more health, which we had in the other thread. Now the fact is that i wrote level 9(!) now whch makes it 3 more health.
Level 8 barbarian : 1 more health Level 9 barbarian : 3 more health.
For the 25 str?
You use girdle of frost or fire giant strength and DuHM.
And would you please refrain from saying i'm wrong AGAIN when i was only wrong once. Which was miss calculations on my part and a modded game.
I'm trying to be polite here and i can't help but feel you're taking this a little personal?
now he won't be 3 more hp i told you
if you are using girdle of strength barbarian is now ahead because girdle of magic resistance gives him 50% dr from magic that your berserken can not wear in the same time or he will lose his str and be less effective in combat and duhm + those girdles is impossible because they are later on in the game and you lost your duhm it is not my fault you are skewing everything towards berserker in terms of this thread
Its a good point about the girdle but I'm pretty sure the type of damage the girdle is limited in preventing is restricted to like Magic Missile and Horrid Wilting type damage. Not all spell damage.
ofc it is magic missle and horrid wilting but barb will use it while berserker won't so clear adv for barb
1.) No one is saying when we're fighting. It's possible to still have DuHM and get 25 STR from being high level. If we're going to say when we fight, then we have to put it up in segments.
Pre underdark Post underdark pre ToB post ToB
2.) It doesn't change the fact that the barbarian can use hardiness + greater whirlwind. As the berserker could use Hardiness + critical strike and truly beat the barbarian through the ground.
3.) The belt only protects against MAGICAL damage. So lightning, fire, dragons breath it doesn't do jack against. It is a good belt but i wouldn't give it to my berserker, he will survive the horrid wilting but my rogue most probably won't.
4.) Ofcourse you're allowed to prebuff with the items you pick. It's like saying a barbarian win over a F/C because they can't prebuff. And i didn't add potions because that would be silly, i see nothing wrong with using the buffs you have on your items of choise.
It's much easier to get good gear for your berserker. Already from the start you can get full plate which is much better than what the barbarian can get. In BG1 the difference is huge between the barbarian and the berserker. In early-mid BG2 the berserker will still be much ahead of the barbarian. Once you get to end game the Berserker will go past him in damage and the barbarian will get 20% damage reduction and more health for survivability.
The best armor you can get for a Barbarian in SoA are the Shadow and red dragon armor. Both which require you to kill a dragon to get. The berserker can pick up a full plate from the group at the tavern in waukeen right out of irenicus dungeon.
And the berserker can dual class if needed. A level 13 berserker / xx cleric will have the same damage reduction and through clerical spells much better damage and survivability.
yeah you can prebuff with items but when you are prebuffing barbarian won't just sit there and wait for your 10 buffs
magical damage is not for this fight but for mages
why would barbarian use greater whirlwind?
If he doesn't use greater whirlwind the Berserker will have 1 more APR than him.
Barbarian and berserker both use Hardiness + Critical strike = Berserker got 1 more APR
Barbarian and berserker both use hardiness = Berserker got 1 more APR
The only way for the barbarian to get equal or better APR is by using greater whirlwind. And if he does that then the berserker can do critical strike instead and with improved haste deal much more damage.
It's much easier to get good gear for your berserker. Already from the start you can get full plate which is much better than what the barbarian can get. In BG1 the difference is huge between the barbarian and the berserker. In early-mid BG2 the berserker will still be much ahead of the barbarian. Once you get to end game the Berserker will go past him in damage and the barbarian will get 20% damage reduction and more health for survivability.
The best armor you can get for a Barbarian in SoA are the Shadow and red dragon armor. Both which require you to kill a dragon to get. The berserker can pick up a full plate from the group at the tavern in waukeen right out of irenicus dungeon.
And the berserker can dual class if needed. A level 13 berserker / xx cleric will have the same damage reduction and through clerical spells much better damage and survivability.
yeah you can prebuff with items but when you are prebuffing barbarian won't just sit there and wait for your 10 buffs
magical damage is not for this fight but for mages
why would barbarian use greater whirlwind?
If he doesn't use greater whirlwind the Berserker will have 1 more APR than him.
Barbarian and berserker both use Hardiness + Critical strike = Berserker got 1 more APR
Barbarian and berserker both use hardiness = Berserker got 1 more APR
The only way for the barbarian to get equal or better APR is by using greater whirlwind. And if he does that then the berserker can do critical strike instead and with improved haste deal much more damage.
it is only 1 apr vs all the barbarian DR%
another false statement 13berserker/cleric won't have the same damage reduction because barbarian with HLA will be 80% or something!
why are you doing this? again?
and why are you copying the same wrong arguments about 8 and 9th level? i told you you were wrong
@SionVI Well, there is no way you can win with that equip. Anyway, I just created them. I will give you DUHM and all the prebuff you desire, it won't change anything BRB frapsing
Sorry if I have to hide the GUI, I tested it with BG2:EE and I'm not allowed to show any new content. You can trust me that I didn't cheat on anything. Prebuff for both: DUHM, Stoneskin, Hardiness and GWA.
Enjoy.
Video removed--the NDA is there for a reason, SpaceInvader.
However, you could always just run the numbers, based on the THAC0, damage range, hit points, and AC for both characters.
For any given attack, calculate the percentage chance that the attack will hit the other person's AC, and multiply it by the average damage (between minimum and maximum damage). Thus, if you deal 10 damage per attack on average, and you have a 50% chance to hit, your net damage (for the purposes of the discussion) is 5.
That's your baseline per attack. Then you can calculate per round how much damage you'll deal to your opponent, and you can even account for special abilities like Greater Whirlwind (increases the number of attacks) or Hardiness (reduces damage percentage). Each point of THAC0 is a difference of 5% to the net, just like any point of AC. Apply damage reduction after everything else; so if your net damage is 10 because you're using Critical Strike, but your target has 20% damage reduction, the total damage for that attack is 8.
It doesn't account for things like kiting (which is difficult to represent because it reflects the player's skill at timing movement, rather than the character's raw abilities), but for comparing the numbers it's actually a more reliable scenario than running the actual combat with random values.
To be honest, while this discussion certainly has theoretical merit, I think it's far less interesting than a debate of the respective dual-class combinations, especially Barbarian->Cleric vs. Berserker->Cleric. Once you start stacking resistances, I think the advantage of the Barbarian becomes more apparent. Yes, Berserker still retains more damage output and the immunity to Imprisonment (for whatever that's worth), but in terms of tanking capability the Barbarian->Cleric just blows the Berserker out of the water.
But to be fair: unless you are playing on full mods and Insane difficulty, the extra beef is probably not very relevant nor needed and you'd indeed rather have the extra damage from a Berserker's grandmastery. But mobs on Insane hit HARD! Not to mention that the THAC0s of modded enemies are truly ridiculous (we're talking base THAC0s of -10 and lower in ToB), backstabs are rampant, and several bosses/encounters pelt you with Timestop + attack combos (which negates AC completely). Heck, there's even mobs using the Critical Strike HLA! Having someone capable of soaking all that is a substantial asset throughout the game; at endgame just as much as early to mid game.
And before someone starts it: allowing dual class for both is the only way to have a discussion at all. If you restrict Barbarian to single class, Berserker just wins hands down, the end, nothing to see.
@SionVI Well, there is no way you can win with that equip. Anyway, I just created them. I will give you DUHM and all the prebuff you desire, it won't change anything BRB frapsing
after 1st hit:barb 256hp 248 240 234 227 219 212 204 199 191 183 175 167 = dead berserker berserkerd dmg per hit~~7,4615 (97/13hits) barb dmg per hit~~20,4615 (266/~~13hits)
barb was 167hp after fight
it looks a lot worst for berserker than i expected he only managet to do 97 dmg
was this pure berserker? did you use foa +5?
I don't have to tell you that this is highly unlikely. With 33 damage per hit and 10 elemental damage there is no way that he will deal 7 damage a hit.
The barbarian has 80% damage reduction The Berserker has 60% damage reduction
The berserker has higher damage with DuHM. The berserker has higher Thac0 The berserker has 1 higher APR and if he used Hardiness + greater whirlwind on his barbarian, he should have used hardiness + Critical strike on the berserker.
I highly doubt that information is correct.
The only reason i could see this possible was if you stacked elemental resistance with the 80% damage reduction.
[Edited] : Just saw the movie, Stormstar with stacked resistance?
And this proves that you had the better gear setup for the fight.
Please use the exact same gear on your barbarian and put ravager on the Berserker.
And use improved haste from the cloak and not ring of Gaxx.
well 33dmg*21% ~=7 so with stacked resist it could be pretty accurate but 20dmg*60%~=12 and 12 is not 20
I'm curious as to his gear. As i mentioned earlier this isn't accurate as it's dependant on luck and gear choises. He knew what i would pick and it's easy enough to stack resistance for FoA +5 then and win with a stormstar.
I tilt my hat in respect for the interesting gear he picked. But this does in no way prove the barbarian is better, just that he picked better gear than me knowing what i would come with.
if mr "smart invader" won't put movie with same eq i might try tomorrow
As much as i enjoy seing the movies and i'm glad he took his time to do this. It still is all about gear and counter-picking eachother. Stormstar and stacking elemental resistance with 80% damage reduction would soak up all FoA +5's damage. But you could still fall to the first hit of the ravager, so it's based on luck there.
Now it would be great if someone would put together a BGEE / BGtrilogy movie. That would be more of a beat your face in fight.
i don't know if i have working bgt at the moment so that would be hard
but counterpicking can be avoided when they have the same gear
That is true but then you have to take into consideration that they won't be optimal with the same gear. As the berserker want some way to get past the 80% damage reduction etc. It's the reason i would have picked FoA +5 but i didn't think he would stack resistance.
But i would still like to see a fight with the same gear, or in BGT / BGEE.
He probably used something like
White dragon scale 50% resist cold Boots of grounding 50% light resist Ring of fire resistance 40% Enhanced helm of the rock 25% Stormstar 20%
I'm sure there is some way to improve the poison resistance aswell, i just can't remember it. Anyway i might also be completely wrong with this and he used something else. I'm curious as to what he used
With 33 damage per hit and 10 elemental damage there is no way that he will deal 7 damage a hit.
Ok, listen... A Barbarian reach 100+ DR vs blunt, it means that the more dmg you do with your Flail the more you heal him. Second, 10 elemental damage? Seriously? Do you consider resitances lol?
With 33 damage per hit and 10 elemental damage there is no way that he will deal 7 damage a hit.
Ok, listen... A Barbarian reach 100+ DR vs blunt, it means that the more dmg you do with your Flail the more you heal him. Second, 10 elemental damage? Seriously? Do you consider resitances lol?
Flail is crushing damage, the helm is blunt damage.
[Edited]: Ignore me i'm an idiot, it's the same thing in BG2. I even looked it up to make sure i wouldn't fall for the damn helm 100%+ trick. Should have picked another weapon :P
Comments
Its a good point about the girdle but I'm pretty sure the type of damage the girdle is limited in preventing is restricted to like Magic Missile and Horrid Wilting type damage. Not all spell damage.
maybe barbarian would just drink 20 potions for resistance against fire cold lighting poison acid xd
do you feel how stupid it is?
Berserker is superior for pure power-gaming with its dual-class options. Yawn.
so clear adv for barb
Pre underdark
Post underdark
pre ToB
post ToB
2.) It doesn't change the fact that the barbarian can use hardiness + greater whirlwind. As the berserker could use Hardiness + critical strike and truly beat the barbarian through the ground.
3.) The belt only protects against MAGICAL damage. So lightning, fire, dragons breath it doesn't do jack against. It is a good belt but i wouldn't give it to my berserker, he will survive the horrid wilting but my rogue most probably won't.
4.) Ofcourse you're allowed to prebuff with the items you pick. It's like saying a barbarian win over a F/C because they can't prebuff. And i didn't add potions because that would be silly, i see nothing wrong with using the buffs you have on your items of choise.
magical damage is not for this fight but for mages
why would barbarian use greater whirlwind?
Level 1 :
The berserker is better at this level and the incomming levels aswell because the rage grants him +15 HP.
--------------------------------------
Level 8 (BG1/BGEE CAP) :
[Barbarian]
1 more health
1 more damage
[Berserker]
2 more Thac0
6 more armor /*1
---------------------------------------
Level 9 (Start of SoA) :
[Barbarian]
3 more health
[Berserker]
3 more Thac0
6 more armor /*1
-------------------------------------------
Level 15 (Mid of SoA)
[Barbarian]
15 more health
15% Damage reduction
[Berserker]
3 more damage /*3
5 more Thac0
4 more armor /*2
------------------------------------------------------------------------
1* = In BG1 the best armor that the barbarian can get is drizzt armor which is AC1, the same as a full plate.
[Barbarian]
AC 1
Rage - 2AC
[Berserk]
AC 1 (Full plate)
Ring of protection +2
Rage + 2
That is 6 more armor.
-------------------------------------------------------------
2* Mid game the best armor you'll get on your barbarian is Red dragon scale -1
[Barbarian]
AC - 1
Rage - 2AC
[Berserker]
AC - 1 (Plate of balduran)
Rage + 2 AC
It's also possible to replace the balduran with a full plate + ring of protection +2 for the saving throws.
----------------------------------------------------------------
3* At level 15 DuHM grants you +5 to your abilities. This will put your berserker to 24 STR.
----------------------------------------------------------------
It's much easier to get good gear for your berserker. Already from the start you can get full plate which is much better than what the barbarian can get. In BG1 the difference is huge between the barbarian and the berserker. In early-mid BG2 the berserker will still be much ahead of the barbarian. Once you get to end game the Berserker will go past him in damage and the barbarian will get 20% damage reduction and more health for survivability.
The best armor you can get for a Barbarian in SoA are the Shadow and red dragon armor. Both which require you to kill a dragon to get. The berserker can pick up a full plate from the group at the tavern in waukeen right out of irenicus dungeon.
And the berserker can dual class if needed. A level 13 berserker / xx cleric will have the same damage reduction and through clerical spells much better damage and survivability. If he doesn't use greater whirlwind the Berserker will have 1 more APR than him.
Barbarian and berserker both use Hardiness + Critical strike = Berserker got 1 more APR
Barbarian and berserker both use hardiness = Berserker got 1 more APR
The only way for the barbarian to get equal or better APR is by using greater whirlwind. And if he does that then the berserker can do critical strike instead and with improved haste deal much more damage.
another false statement
13berserker/cleric won't have the same damage reduction because barbarian with HLA will be 80% or something!
why are you doing this? again?
and why are you copying the same wrong arguments about 8 and 9th level? i told you you were wrong
Well, there is no way you can win with that equip.
Anyway, I just created them.
I will give you DUHM and all the prebuff you desire, it won't change anything
BRB frapsing
You can trust me that I didn't cheat on anything.
Prebuff for both: DUHM, Stoneskin, Hardiness and GWA.
Enjoy.
Video removed--the NDA is there for a reason, SpaceInvader.
what we have here is serious discussion!
well that was pretty fast thx space invader
berserker 266hp
barb 264
berserker tried 15 hits (not always connected)
barbarian 13 hits (not always connected)
after
1st hit:barb 256hp
248
240
234
227
219
212
204
199
191
183
175
167 = dead berserker
berserkerd dmg per hit~~7,4615 (97/13hits)
barb dmg per hit~~20,4615 (266/~~13hits)
barb was 167hp after fight
it looks a lot worst for berserker than i expected he only managet to do 97 dmg
was this pure berserker? did you use foa +5?
However, you could always just run the numbers, based on the THAC0, damage range, hit points, and AC for both characters.
For any given attack, calculate the percentage chance that the attack will hit the other person's AC, and multiply it by the average damage (between minimum and maximum damage). Thus, if you deal 10 damage per attack on average, and you have a 50% chance to hit, your net damage (for the purposes of the discussion) is 5.
That's your baseline per attack. Then you can calculate per round how much damage you'll deal to your opponent, and you can even account for special abilities like Greater Whirlwind (increases the number of attacks) or Hardiness (reduces damage percentage). Each point of THAC0 is a difference of 5% to the net, just like any point of AC. Apply damage reduction after everything else; so if your net damage is 10 because you're using Critical Strike, but your target has 20% damage reduction, the total damage for that attack is 8.
It doesn't account for things like kiting (which is difficult to represent because it reflects the player's skill at timing movement, rather than the character's raw abilities), but for comparing the numbers it's actually a more reliable scenario than running the actual combat with random values.
But to be fair: unless you are playing on full mods and Insane difficulty, the extra beef is probably not very relevant nor needed and you'd indeed rather have the extra damage from a Berserker's grandmastery. But mobs on Insane hit HARD! Not to mention that the THAC0s of modded enemies are truly ridiculous (we're talking base THAC0s of -10 and lower in ToB), backstabs are rampant, and several bosses/encounters pelt you with Timestop + attack combos (which negates AC completely). Heck, there's even mobs using the Critical Strike HLA! Having someone capable of soaking all that is a substantial asset throughout the game; at endgame just as much as early to mid game.
And before someone starts it: allowing dual class for both is the only way to have a discussion at all. If you restrict Barbarian to single class, Berserker just wins hands down, the end, nothing to see.
what did u use on barbarian? Roranach's Horn +50% resistence to blunt weapons- so he was healed by berserker? or what?
this many resistance yes
The barbarian has 80% damage reduction
The Berserker has 60% damage reduction
The berserker has higher damage with DuHM.
The berserker has higher Thac0
The berserker has 1 higher APR and if he used Hardiness + greater whirlwind on his barbarian, he should have used hardiness + Critical strike on the berserker.
I highly doubt that information is correct.
The only reason i could see this possible was if you stacked elemental resistance with the 80% damage reduction.
[Edited] : Just saw the movie, Stormstar with stacked resistance?
And this proves that you had the better gear setup for the fight.
Please use the exact same gear on your barbarian and put ravager on the Berserker.
And use improved haste from the cloak and not ring of Gaxx.
so with stacked resist it could be pretty accurate
but 20dmg*60%~=12
and 12 is not 20
I tilt my hat in respect for the interesting gear he picked. But this does in no way prove the barbarian is better, just that he picked better gear than me knowing what i would come with.
Now it would be great if someone would put together a BGEE / BGtrilogy movie. That would be more of a beat your face in fight.
but counterpicking can be avoided when they have the same gear
But i would still like to see a fight with the same gear, or in BGT / BGEE.
He probably used something like
White dragon scale 50% resist cold
Boots of grounding 50% light resist
Ring of fire resistance 40%
Enhanced helm of the rock 25%
Stormstar 20%
Light resist : 95%
Cold resist : 75%
Fire resistance : 65%
Acid resistance : 25%
Poison resistance : 25%
I'm sure there is some way to improve the poison resistance aswell, i just can't remember it. Anyway i might also be completely wrong with this and he used something else. I'm curious as to what he used
Second, 10 elemental damage? Seriously? Do you consider resitances lol?
[Edited]: Ignore me i'm an idiot, it's the same thing in BG2. I even looked it up to make sure i wouldn't fall for the damn helm 100%+ trick. Should have picked another weapon :P