So, just to state, as i did in the OP, this thread has NO RESTRICTIONS. you can argue with BG:EE facts, BG2:EE facts, mod possibilities and therefore on.
However to anyone that argue with mods, understand that these kind of arguments can't be labeled as official advantages for the class you argue for. People have the same right of reject mod arguments the same way ppl has the right to argue with them.
The dual classing is really the thing that is the big benefit for berserkers. The downside with it though is (unless you dual really late) you lose out on getting fighter HLA's.
With hardiness a barb will have better damage reduction than a berserker (at least not counting something like stoneskin).
And if you dual class as you mentioned you get the 20%.
My 2 cents:
In BG:EE -
Berserker has better damage? I can go for 22 str (23 if i'm a half-orc with 19 base str) from the very lvl 1, how would the base and fixed bonus from berserker rage could overcome barbarian rage, that will set a barbarian to normally 22 strengh (with all hit/damage bonus related to 22 str), 22 constitution, or 23 if dwarf, 24 with the buckler with +1 to constitution sold in FAI and 25 with the tome of constitution from pirate's cave (with all the hp/regeneration/saving throw bonus that comes from these stats).
Better Thac0, with barbarian rage setting a str to 22 in BG:EE where exist no girdle or str improve item, except the ogre gloves (18/00)? I doubt it.
Bettter rage? No, important rage. Imprisonment immunity is important against Kangaxx, the other demi-lich in watcher's keep, some elder orb and mage fights. In BG:EE +4str +4 cons is better than anything Berserker rage can give, no argue about it, sorry.
Higher APR, Not in BG:EE.
Grand Mastery, not in BG:EE
In BG2:EE
Better damage? Barbarian Rage lose some of it's bonus, but still it probally will set str and constitution to 25 every time it's used. Berserkers have no passive hit/damage bonus and unless you're using Crom Faeyr on your Berserker, Barbarians gonna always compensate with the hit/damage bonus from 1 or 2 str points he will have above berserker.
Better Thac0? Why? Berserker use a diferent table than the commo fighter table for thac0? Grand mastery will give extra +1 hit and +2 dmg, but 25 strengh also give bonus hit/dmg over a less strengh value a Berserker get.
Better Rage? No, already stated previously. +4 constitution is still a huge advantage cos it's summed with the extra HP from the rage state and easly reach 25 constitution (giving 1hp/round regeneration).
Higher APR? Yes, Berserker have 1/2 APR extra atk from Grand Mastery. But, when you're in the late SoA/ToB, with Wirlwind attack, access to improved haste, and other resourses this isn't a huge advantage. Still Berserkers are, at least by numbers, better than Barbarians in APR.
Grand Mastery, yes. Barbarian can only reach specialization.
Optional: As Berserkers could use Crom Faeyr to compensate for Barbarian Rage and go 25 Str, Barbarians can dual Fulcrum+4 (Item Upgrade mod) and Club of Detonation+5.
Fulcrum+4: +4 damage to Good/Evil/Lawful/Chaotics (cumulative). Set Club proficiency to Grandmastery.
So, just to state, as i did in the OP, this thread has NO RESTRICTIONS. you can argue with BG:EE facts, BG2:EE facts, mod possibilities and therefore on.
However to anyone that argue with mods, understand that these kind of arguments can't be labeled as official advantages for the class you argue for. People have the same right of reject mod arguments the same way ppl has the right to argue with them.
The dual classing is really the thing that is the big benefit for berserkers. The downside with it though is (unless you dual really late) you lose out on getting fighter HLA's.
With hardiness a barb will have better damage reduction than a berserker (at least not counting something like stoneskin).
And if you dual class as you mentioned you get the 20%.
My 2 cents:
In BG:EE -
Berserker has better damage? I can go for 22 str (23 if i'm a half-orc with 19 base str) from the very lvl 1, how would the base and fixed bonus from berserker rage could overcome barbarian rage, that will set a barbarian to normally 22 strengh (with all hit/damage bonus related to 22 str), 22 constitution, or 23 if dwarf, 24 with the buckler with +1 to constitution sold in FAI and 25 with the tome of constitution from pirate's cave (with all the hp/regeneration/saving throw bonus that comes from these stats).
Better Thac0, with barbarian rage setting a str to 22 in BG:EE where exist no girdle or str improve item, except the ogre gloves (18/00)? I doubt it.
Bettter rage? No, important rage. Imprisonment immunity is important against Kangaxx, the other demi-lich in watcher's keep, some elder orb and mage fights. In BG:EE +4str +4 cons is better than anything Berserker rage can give, no argue about it, sorry.
Higher APR, Not in BG:EE.
Grand Mastery, not in BG:EE
In BG2:EE
Better damage? Barbarian Rage lose some of it's bonus, but still it probally will set str and constitution to 25 every time it's used. Berserkers have no passive hit/damage bonus and unless you're using Crom Faeyr on your Berserker, Barbarians gonna always compensate with the hit/damage bonus from 1 or 2 str points he will have above berserker.
Better Thac0? Why? Berserker use a diferent table than the commo fighter table for thac0? Grand mastery will give extra +1 hit and +2 dmg, but 25 strengh also give bonus hit/dmg over a less strengh value a Berserker get.
Better Rage? No, already stated previously. +4 constitution is still a huge advantage cos it's summed with the extra HP from the rage state and easly reach 25 constitution (giving 1hp/round regeneration).
Higher APR? Yes, Berserker have 1/2 APR extra atk from Grand Mastery. But, when you're in the late SoA/ToB, with Wirlwind attack, access to improved haste, and other resourses this isn't a huge advantage. Still Berserkers are, at least by numbers, better than Barbarians in APR.
Grand Mastery, yes. Barbarian can only reach specialization.
Optional: As Berserkers could use Crom Faeyr to compensate for Barbarian Rage and go 25 Str, Barbarians can dual Fulcrum+4 (Item Upgrade mod) and Club of Detonation+5.
Fulcrum+4: +4 damage to Good/Evil/Lawful/Chaotics (cumulative). Set Club proficiency to Grandmastery.
1.) As i mentioned earlier the barbarian get 1 more damage than the berserker at BGEE XP cap. If they were able to get to level 9 they would have the same damage.
The barbarian rage grants you +4 damage and +2 Thac0.
The berserker rage grants you +2 damage + 2 Thac0 and you still get high mastery instead of weapon specialization.
2.) Your half orc doesn't get any extra saving throws. If you want saving throws for high constitution you would have to play dwarf. Also the extra health you get from constitution 20-23 isn't as much as you would believe, same goes for regeneration which is very slow. So it wouldn't be a good idea to use the shield with +1 constitution.
4.) we're looking at rage differently, let's look at it purely from BG1 / BGEE
Barbarian
+4 Damage (+4 STR) +2 Thac0 (+4 STR) +1 extra health per level(+4 con) -2 AC
Berserker
+2 Damage +2 Thac0 +2 AC +15 HP
So you're trading 2 more damage for 4 AC. In BGEE i much rather have 4 better AC than +2 damage.
5.) As i talked with Zur we don't reach grand mastery in BGEE so the berserker doesn't get ½ apr extra, yet.
6.) I find item improvement mod incredible overpowered so i don't use it, sorry.
7.) In BG2 the berserker rage grants more immunities. And as it isn't very hard to get high STR the +2 damage and +2 Thac0 from the berserker rage is actually more useful than the STR and CON from the barbarian.
So, just to state, as i did in the OP, this thread has NO RESTRICTIONS. you can argue with BG:EE facts, BG2:EE facts, mod possibilities and therefore on.
However to anyone that argue with mods, understand that these kind of arguments can't be labeled as official advantages for the class you argue for. People have the same right of reject mod arguments the same way ppl has the right to argue with them.
The dual classing is really the thing that is the big benefit for berserkers. The downside with it though is (unless you dual really late) you lose out on getting fighter HLA's.
With hardiness a barb will have better damage reduction than a berserker (at least not counting something like stoneskin).
And if you dual class as you mentioned you get the 20%.
My 2 cents:
In BG:EE -
Berserker has better damage? I can go for 22 str (23 if i'm a half-orc with 19 base str) from the very lvl 1, how would the base and fixed bonus from berserker rage could overcome barbarian rage, that will set a barbarian to normally 22 strengh (with all hit/damage bonus related to 22 str), 22 constitution, or 23 if dwarf, 24 with the buckler with +1 to constitution sold in FAI and 25 with the tome of constitution from pirate's cave (with all the hp/regeneration/saving throw bonus that comes from these stats).
Better Thac0, with barbarian rage setting a str to 22 in BG:EE where exist no girdle or str improve item, except the ogre gloves (18/00)? I doubt it.
Bettter rage? No, important rage. Imprisonment immunity is important against Kangaxx, the other demi-lich in watcher's keep, some elder orb and mage fights. In BG:EE +4str +4 cons is better than anything Berserker rage can give, no argue about it, sorry.
Higher APR, Not in BG:EE.
Grand Mastery, not in BG:EE
In BG2:EE
Better damage? Barbarian Rage lose some of it's bonus, but still it probally will set str and constitution to 25 every time it's used. Berserkers have no passive hit/damage bonus and unless you're using Crom Faeyr on your Berserker, Barbarians gonna always compensate with the hit/damage bonus from 1 or 2 str points he will have above berserker.
Better Thac0? Why? Berserker use a diferent table than the commo fighter table for thac0? Grand mastery will give extra +1 hit and +2 dmg, but 25 strengh also give bonus hit/dmg over a less strengh value a Berserker get.
Better Rage? No, already stated previously. +4 constitution is still a huge advantage cos it's summed with the extra HP from the rage state and easly reach 25 constitution (giving 1hp/round regeneration).
Higher APR? Yes, Berserker have 1/2 APR extra atk from Grand Mastery. But, when you're in the late SoA/ToB, with Wirlwind attack, access to improved haste, and other resourses this isn't a huge advantage. Still Berserkers are, at least by numbers, better than Barbarians in APR.
Grand Mastery, yes. Barbarian can only reach specialization.
Optional: As Berserkers could use Crom Faeyr to compensate for Barbarian Rage and go 25 Str, Barbarians can dual Fulcrum+4 (Item Upgrade mod) and Club of Detonation+5.
Fulcrum+4: +4 damage to Good/Evil/Lawful/Chaotics (cumulative). Set Club proficiency to Grandmastery.
dude it is over barbarian won losing only 97 hp in the fight and there is no better weapon than foa+5 so there is no way berserker could win
That was barbarian vs the berserker in a death match where you could counter-pick items. That has absolutely nothing to do with who is the best in the game, and everything to do with who had the better gear. We're not going to get anything reasonable out of those fights other than enjoyment.
To properly test them against each other, you'd need each of them to wear comparable equipment. Using weapons with special properties is a good way to demonstrate the abilities of those weapons, but it doesn't demonstrate the difference between the two classes. You can generally assume that any tactic one class uses could be effectively countered by the other class, given the right equipment. So equipment strategy isn't a sufficient test scenario.
Try it with this:
The berserker gets a +1 weapon (or two of them), and +1 Plate Mail. The barbarian gets a +1 weapon (or two of them), and +1 Studded Leather.
You could use shields instead of a second weapon for one or both of them, but they'll more or less cancel each other out. If the berserker can have boots of speed then so can the barbarian, which (again) cancels itself out.
The Barbarian has some distinct advantages, but so does the Berserker (that's one of the reasons why they're both in the game as separate options).
To properly test them against each other, you'd need each of them to wear comparable equipment. Using weapons with special properties is a good way to demonstrate the abilities of those weapons, but it doesn't demonstrate the difference between the two classes. You can generally assume that any tactic one class uses could be effectively countered by the other class, given the right equipment. So equipment strategy isn't a sufficient test scenario.
Try it with this:
The berserker gets a +1 weapon (or two of them), and +1 Plate Mail. The barbarian gets a +1 weapon (or two of them), and +1 Studded Leather.
You could use shields instead of a second weapon for one or both of them, but they'll more or less cancel each other out. If the berserker can have boots of speed then so can the barbarian, which (again) cancels itself out.
The Barbarian has some distinct advantages, but so does the Berserker (that's one of the reasons why they're both in the game as separate options).
that weapon would favor barbarian with maxed DR% the only reason berserker had a chance was +10 elemental dmg from foa
Barbarian has a total of 20% damage reduction at level 19; I don't know that that fully makes up for the extra half-attack gained by the Berserker's Grandmastery in whatever weapon he's wielding, but it is a significant advantage.
There's also something else to consider, which is this:
Full Plate gets an additional +4 bonus to AC against slashing weapons and a +3 bonus against piercing and missile weapons. Studded Leather (the best armor a barbarian can wear) gets a +1 bonus to AC against slashing weapons but a -2 PENALTY against piercing and missile. Chain Mail gets a +2 bonus against slashing and a -2 penalty against crushing. Splint Mail gets a +1 bonus against piercing and missile, and a +2 bonus against crushing.
Note that while DD is indeed quite good, it's also restricted to dwarves - meaning you can't dual-class, unless you hack it. Not a big deal for most people, especially considering how good DD is even as single class, but in terms of powergaming it's absolutely a concern.
They should really consider to make an arena for pvp, when multiplayer will be fixed.
@SionVI FoA+5 is also the counter of itself: imagine how the fight would be if the Berserker has no free action and gets permaslowed since the first hit. Ofc you can equip 1 ring for that, but then you would have less resist/regen/whatever.
I agree with you that at lower levels (BG1) the Berserker is stronger than Barbarian. Also, Berserk/Mage is seconded only by Sorcerer, in terms of raw power.
As for the Brsk40 vs Brb40 fight.. After thinking and re-thinking to all the possible scenarios I came to a conclusion: the Berserker would win only IF Improved Haste could work with Free Action. Because with IH (that the Barbarian don't really need, since he will spam GWA) it means the Berserker has the possibility to use other abilities/items every round.
Unfortunately it has been fixed xD
So the Berserker will be forced to play the GWA spamming game.
You can say: "Damn FoA! If it wasn't for the free action effect I need to counter you, my Berserker would probably win!"
And yes, in the video I made I simply countered almost every source of the FoA damage, ignoring Belm.
Studded Leather (the best armor a barbarian can wear)
I thought barbarians can wear splint mail.
Ah! So they can. Still, it's worth noting.
EDIT: this means that, compared with Splint Mail, Full Plate has:
+4 vs piercing and missile +6 vs slashing The same AC vs crushing
Assuming you choose weapons based on that knowledge, the barbarian will most likely wield a crushing weapon such as a hammer or club (or quarterstaff), and the berserker will wield a slashing weapon such as a longsword. Thus, under those circumstances there's still only a 2-point difference in AC between them (a 10% increase in chance to hit).
If the berserker wields the flail of ages instead, their effective AC is the same. But if the barbarian wields a slashing weapon, the berserker is looking at a six-point advantage (30% increase in to-hit chance) from armor alone.
I choose berserker for my dwarf characters, and barbarian for half Orc and humans. Because that makes much more sense to me than spreadsheets and equations .
Comments
Storm Star 1d6+6, +1d6 elec 5% chance of chain lightning 13+
Club of Detonation 1d6+5, +5 fire 30% chance of +15 fire, 5% chance of fireball 13.5(19.05)
Gram the Sword of Grief 1d10+5 10% chance of 2d12 poison 10.5(11.8)
Flail of Ages 1d6+6, +10 elemental 19,5
Staff of the Ram 1d6+12+1d4 18
Impaler 1d6+13 16,5
Foebane 2d4+5, +4 magic +6 to undead, shapeshifters, extra-planars 14
Crom Faeyr 2d4+3, +5 elec 13
Spectral Brand 1d8+5, +1d6 cold 13
Angurvadal 1d8+5, +1d4+1 fire 13
Carsomyr 1d12+6 +6 to chaotic evil 12,5
Staff of Striking 1d6+9 12,5
Ice Star 2d4+4, +1d4 cold 11,5
Ravager 1d10+6 +3d6 damage (save) 11,5
Spear of Withering 1d6+4, +4 poison 11,5
Warblade 1d12+4 10,5
Psion's Blade 1d10+5 10,5
Dragon's Breath 1d10, +5 elemental 10,5
the only close to foa is staffo of the ram but this is 2hander
However to anyone that argue with mods, understand that these kind of arguments can't be labeled as official advantages for the class you argue for. People have the same right of reject mod arguments the same way ppl has the right to argue with them.
My 2 cents:
In BG:EE -
Berserker has better damage? I can go for 22 str (23 if i'm a half-orc with 19 base str) from the very lvl 1, how would the base and fixed bonus from berserker rage could overcome barbarian rage, that will set a barbarian to normally 22 strengh (with all hit/damage bonus related to 22 str), 22 constitution, or 23 if dwarf, 24 with the buckler with +1 to constitution sold in FAI and 25 with the tome of constitution from pirate's cave (with all the hp/regeneration/saving throw bonus that comes from these stats).
Better Thac0, with barbarian rage setting a str to 22 in BG:EE where exist no girdle or str improve item, except the ogre gloves (18/00)? I doubt it.
Bettter rage? No, important rage. Imprisonment immunity is important against Kangaxx, the other demi-lich in watcher's keep, some elder orb and mage fights. In BG:EE +4str +4 cons is better than anything Berserker rage can give, no argue about it, sorry.
Higher APR, Not in BG:EE.
Grand Mastery, not in BG:EE
In BG2:EE
Better damage? Barbarian Rage lose some of it's bonus, but still it probally will set str and constitution to 25 every time it's used. Berserkers have no passive hit/damage bonus and unless you're using Crom Faeyr on your Berserker, Barbarians gonna always compensate with the hit/damage bonus from 1 or 2 str points he will have above berserker.
Better Thac0? Why? Berserker use a diferent table than the commo fighter table for thac0? Grand mastery will give extra +1 hit and +2 dmg, but 25 strengh also give bonus hit/dmg over a less strengh value a Berserker get.
Better Rage? No, already stated previously. +4 constitution is still a huge advantage cos it's summed with the extra HP from the rage state and easly reach 25 constitution (giving 1hp/round regeneration).
Higher APR? Yes, Berserker have 1/2 APR extra atk from Grand Mastery. But, when you're in the late SoA/ToB, with Wirlwind attack, access to improved haste, and other resourses this isn't a huge advantage. Still Berserkers are, at least by numbers, better than Barbarians in APR.
Grand Mastery, yes. Barbarian can only reach specialization.
Optional: As Berserkers could use Crom Faeyr to compensate for Barbarian Rage and go 25 Str, Barbarians can dual Fulcrum+4 (Item Upgrade mod) and Club of Detonation+5.
Fulcrum+4: +4 damage to Good/Evil/Lawful/Chaotics (cumulative). Set Club proficiency to Grandmastery.
The barbarian rage grants you +4 damage and +2 Thac0.
The berserker rage grants you +2 damage + 2 Thac0 and you still get high mastery instead of weapon specialization.
2.) Your half orc doesn't get any extra saving throws. If you want saving throws for high constitution you would have to play dwarf. Also the extra health you get from constitution 20-23 isn't as much as you would believe, same goes for regeneration which is very slow. So it wouldn't be a good idea to use the shield with +1 constitution.
3.) Let's look at the Thac0
19 STR (Berserk, barbarian base with tome) : 3 Thac0
20 STR : 3 Thac0
21 STR : 4 Thac0
22 STR : 4 Thac0
23 STR : 5 Thac0
Barbarian :
23 STR : 5 Thac0
Weapon specialization : 1 Thac0
Berserker :
19 STR : 3 Thac0
Rage : 2 Thac0
High mastery : 3 Thac0
4.) we're looking at rage differently, let's look at it purely from BG1 / BGEE
Barbarian
+4 Damage (+4 STR)
+2 Thac0 (+4 STR)
+1 extra health per level(+4 con)
-2 AC
Berserker
+2 Damage
+2 Thac0
+2 AC
+15 HP
So you're trading 2 more damage for 4 AC. In BGEE i much rather have 4 better AC than +2 damage.
5.) As i talked with Zur we don't reach grand mastery in BGEE so the berserker doesn't get ½ apr extra, yet.
6.) I find item improvement mod incredible overpowered so i don't use it, sorry.
7.) In BG2 the berserker rage grants more immunities. And as it isn't very hard to get high STR the +2 damage and +2 Thac0 from the berserker rage is actually more useful than the STR and CON from the barbarian.
[Edited] http://playithardcore.com/pihwiki/index.php?title=Baldur's_Gate:_Races_and_Stats#Strength
dude it is over
barbarian won losing only 97 hp in the fight and there is no better weapon than foa+5 so there is no way berserker could win
but what would happen if berserker used this helmet? they would fight forever? ;D
Try it with this:
The berserker gets a +1 weapon (or two of them), and +1 Plate Mail.
The barbarian gets a +1 weapon (or two of them), and +1 Studded Leather.
You could use shields instead of a second weapon for one or both of them, but they'll more or less cancel each other out. If the berserker can have boots of speed then so can the barbarian, which (again) cancels itself out.
The Barbarian has some distinct advantages, but so does the Berserker (that's one of the reasons why they're both in the game as separate options).
the only reason berserker had a chance was +10 elemental dmg from foa
There's also something else to consider, which is this:
Full Plate gets an additional +4 bonus to AC against slashing weapons and a +3 bonus against piercing and missile weapons.
Studded Leather (the best armor a barbarian can wear) gets a +1 bonus to AC against slashing weapons but a -2 PENALTY against piercing and missile.
Chain Mail gets a +2 bonus against slashing and a -2 penalty against crushing.
Splint Mail gets a +1 bonus against piercing and missile, and a +2 bonus against crushing.
And Leather is just terrible.
@SionVI FoA+5 is also the counter of itself: imagine how the fight would be if the Berserker has no free action and gets permaslowed since the first hit.
Ofc you can equip 1 ring for that, but then you would have less resist/regen/whatever.
I agree with you that at lower levels (BG1) the Berserker is stronger than Barbarian.
Also, Berserk/Mage is seconded only by Sorcerer, in terms of raw power.
As for the Brsk40 vs Brb40 fight..
After thinking and re-thinking to all the possible scenarios I came to a conclusion: the Berserker would win only IF Improved Haste could work with Free Action. Because with IH (that the Barbarian don't really need, since he will spam GWA) it means the Berserker has the possibility to use other abilities/items every round.
Unfortunately it has been fixed xD
So the Berserker will be forced to play the GWA spamming game.
You can say: "Damn FoA! If it wasn't for the free action effect I need to counter you, my Berserker would probably win!"
And yes, in the video I made I simply countered almost every source of the FoA damage, ignoring Belm.
EDIT: this means that, compared with Splint Mail, Full Plate has:
+4 vs piercing and missile
+6 vs slashing
The same AC vs crushing
Assuming you choose weapons based on that knowledge, the barbarian will most likely wield a crushing weapon such as a hammer or club (or quarterstaff), and the berserker will wield a slashing weapon such as a longsword. Thus, under those circumstances there's still only a 2-point difference in AC between them (a 10% increase in chance to hit).
If the berserker wields the flail of ages instead, their effective AC is the same. But if the barbarian wields a slashing weapon, the berserker is looking at a six-point advantage (30% increase in to-hit chance) from armor alone.