Larloch's Minor Drain. The spell pretends to be good, but only gives you on average 3 meager *temporary* HP and never even gets better, unlike his cool pal Magic Missile.
Creeping doom: Since the damage is pretty much negligible anyway, Insect plague is almost always better with 100% spell failure lasting much longer.
A saving grace for creeping doom is that it affects liches and monsters immune to level 5 or lower spells.
That and the fact that it does 2 damage for every 1 second (for 3 rounds) compared to 1 damage for every 2 seconds (for 6 rounds). It does twice the damage in a shorter timeframe while still slowing down enemies. I know 36 damage is not a lot but that will still take a lot of health off a mage (and its not like you can't follow it up with insect plague).
Yeah...most of the touch spells are crap....since they aren't implemented properly. Touch spells attack the target as if their base AC was 10, regardless of what it actually is and ignores shields (dex and some magical bonuses (anything that doesn't modifier their base AC, such as rings or amulet of protection) still apply).
Wouldn't mind seeing Animate Dead animals (Complete Necromancer) added at some point. (First level spell, animates 1 1/4 HD (2 hp) skeletal animal per caster level)
I think Animate Dead Animals could be modded into the game, but it would have to be animal zombies only, since there aren't any skeletal animal animations, so creating zombie versions would only require some color adjustments. Animal zombies would be a little tougher than their living counterparts (+1 HD) and have standard undead immunities, but they'd be reduced to 1/2 speed.
The number of zombie animals animated would scale as the character advances in level, but it would be pretty weak at low levels: only undead rats, cats, squirrels, chickens, and so forth at 1st level (lol). Eventually, at higher levels, it would make sense for Dread Wolves and even zombie Polar Bears to be created by the spell.
Energy Drain is also supposed to raise any target killed by it as a permanent Undead under your control with their full pre-drain abilities. The 2 levels drained though is PnP accurate. the 4th level enervation also drains 2 level (but only for 24 hours), also animates any target that dies from it, but only up to 8 HD (creatures with more then 8HD are animated as 8 HD, with appropriate abilities for that level).
You don't have to level drain them to death, the lost hp from being level drained also counts if it pushes them into the negative.
Minor drain is weak because it restores health. Mages aren't supposed have efficient use of health restoring and any spell that includes it is heavily penalized in some way. (Like VT having a really long cast time, and requires melee range (the original version was almost instant cast, but in order to gain health you had to grapple the target and you gained a small amount of hp per round (1d4+1 per 2 levels) you maintained the grapple (reminds me very strongly of how JoJo vampires drink blood).
Infravision. That will do my elf and half-elf characters a lot of good. Really not beneficial to humans either. Now playing a PnP game it might be useful in the Underdark or some other dark dungeon.
I dont believe I saw melfs minute meteors and fire seeds mentioned in this thread, both are amazing for multi or dual class mages with fighter or rogue levels.
Enchantment spells arent too useful in BG, and especially annoying when cast on your party by enemy mages, but they were designed to work brilliantly as crowd control spells in later D&D games, especially in Dungeons and Dragons online.
Luckily in games such as Dragon Age they stopped this ridiculous amount of fear/charm/hold spells from mages.
Erm, DAO reduced the number of all types of spells, and dumbed the spell system down considerably, this wasnt a good thing.
These types of spells still existed in DAO, but all types of spells were in far fewer numbers giving less options to play with. DAO did not have a better spell system than any true D&D based game.
Energy drain is a 9th level spell because level drain is pretty terrifying in P&P games. In BG games it's lost most of the fear factor because restoration is so convenient.
I dont believe I saw melfs minute meteors and fire seeds mentioned in this thread, both are amazing for multi or dual class mages with fighter or rogue levels.
The person who brought up minute meteors may/may not have been serious about it but the two spells don't even compare and fire seeds falls far short of amazing. Melfs does 4-7 damage (+3 fire damage) at 5 APR. There is no saving throw. I believe you get 1 ammo per level (up to 17). You can't transfer ammo (not that big of a deal frankly). Its a level 3 spell and its very good.
Fire seeds does 2-16 fire damage at 1 APR. Saving throw for half damage. You get 4 ammo (no more no less). You can transfer ammo to a fighter to improve the APR (but in what world would it be worth it to use another character to throw these instead of having them using a ranged weapon?) or just cast haste and get 2 APR (or cast improved haste on a level 13 fighter and get up to 4 APR). You can't even improve the APR if you specialise (or grandmastery) in darts or slings (I know I just tested it). It gets a slight area of effect which is hardly worth mentioning. Ohh and of course its a level 6 spell (and there are more worthy level 6 spells even for druids). Like I said, far short of amazing for any character.
In terms of high level mage spells, there are several that are pretty bad, especially compared to the competition.
Energy drain: Sux. 2 levels is hardly going to do anything to most enemies. Make it like 5 or more levels and THEN you have a worthy level 9 spell.
Mantles and Absolute immunity: Now how many enemies that pose any real threat use normal weapons? Just use prot. from magic weapons which costs a much lower level spell slot anyway.
Gate: If you must cast this, get a priest to do it. No sense wasting a level 9 slot for it.
Symbol, Death: Just use symbol stun.
Protection from elements/energy: Hmm, I guess these are ok if you want to resist stuff... but you can also cast a bunch of lower level spells to be completely immune to all of the same stuff only for a longer period of time. Also, though powerful, these seem to be a poor choice compared to the competition.
Honorable mention: Simulacrum: Almost always outclassed by project image which is one level lower. It does have its advantages though.
Next up: High level priest spells.
I find the Mantles and Absolute Immunity to be quite useful (granted, prot from magical weapons is better but spell slots are limited and these spells don't have long durations). Simulacrum is useful - especially for multi-class fighter/mages. From a meta perspective, I like that Simulacrum isn't as easily cheesable as projected image.
Confusion: Bad enough on its own. Now it is a level 7 spell.
Creeping doom: Since the damage is pretty much negligible anyway, Insect plague is almost always better with 100% spell failure lasting much longer.
Symbol, Death: Again with this?
Bolt of Glory: Flamestrike>>>Bolt of Glory
Fireseeds: As above.
Honorable mention: Animal Summoning 3 and Conjure animals: Unless you want your summons to be primarily meat shields, then just go with the fire elemental/aerial servant.
Holy/Unholy Word: Seems like there are better things you could be doing with level 7, but it may have some use.
Creeping doom is one of my favorite spells in the entire game.
Just to clarify: My main reason for liking the "BUGS!!!" spells, as I call them, is the spell failure component. I prefer to maximize the duration of 100% spell failure over greater damage. I can completely understand liking Creeping Doom for its advantages though. Perhaps it isn't as bad as I once thought...
Oh ok, I thought fire seeds was good like meteors. Probably not.
Melfs Minute Meteros and Energy Disks on a Swashmage or Kensage .</p>
I'm actually working on trying to make a mod for fire seeds with Near Infinity to make it closer to Melf's Minute Meteors. I'm not having much luck on changing the attacks per round (I tried adding an effect to do this but it doesn't seem to have done so) though I will keep at it.
Just to clarify: My main reason for liking the "BUGS!!!" spells, as I call them, is the spell failure component. I prefer to maximize the duration of 100% spell failure over greater damage. I can completely understand liking Creeping Doom for its advantages though. Perhaps it isn't as bad as I once thought...
Why pick just one? Both of them are great, IMO. I remember once using a BG2 engine bug (you could have any character use any scroll) to have a druid use a chain contingency spell and loaded it up with 3 creeping dooms. That was just cruel for the TOB final fight's spell casters.
Larloch's Minor Drain. The spell pretends to be good, but only gives you on average 3 meager *temporary* HP and never even gets better, unlike his cool pal Magic Missile.
Not to mention that it doesn't work against undead and anyone immune to negative energy. So, less damage, less range, no advancement and a whole class of creatures immune to it, all for +3 HP?
Bolt of Glory bypasses resistances, while Flame Strike is subject to both resistance to fire and magic. Sometimes it matters.
I agree with this - especially for later in the game when there ware a lot of fire resistant enemies but the damage is so paltry that it still is a spell I very rarely consider.
I always thought that there should be higher level versions of Larlochs Minor Drain, topping out at a 50 point life steal at a level 6 spell.
One thing I loved about Neverwinter Nights was all the missile spells they had added to the game (lesser and greater missile storms). I wish that each type of spell / damage had a valid scaling with levels and higher level versions available.
Not to mention that it doesn't work against undead and anyone immune to negative energy.
Where do you get that from? The spell just deals plain magic damage, to everyone and everything.
Sorry, doesn't it work that way? On a NWN2 PW where they implemented it, the spell didn't work against undead or anything from the negative material plane (and in fact HEALS such creatures). Since that pretty much makes sense (the effect is a negative material RAY), I assumed that was the way it was implemented in BG. Guess not. Sorry.
Color spray and sleep. Color spray doesn't work at all in bg2 and same for sleep the saving throws will get you every time. Of course infravision but that goes without saying.
Color spray and sleep. Color spray doesn't work at all in bg2 and same for sleep the saving throws will get you every time. Of course infravision but that goes without saying.
These spells are both death on wheels for most of BG1. They are so good in BG1, I take one of them (sleep typically) even with a sorcerer.
There is no negative energy type in BG. In NWN, there is, and undead are properly healed by it.
Technically the Cause line of spells, and harm are supposed to heal undead even in 2nd Edition, but don't in BG.
Project Image just flat out doesn't work properly....It's only purpose for existence is to allow your character to cast his spells remotely, without being in harms way (DOES NOT grant vision, so you need to use in combination with Wizard's eye/Far-sight/Crystal Ball to fight in battles you can't see from your hiding place (The Baelnorn version DOES include sight and even manipulation of objects under 5 pounds, since they place a small amount of their spirit into to it, but it costs them 1 HP per use). Any spells cast through it are supposed to be used up on the caster.
It currently functions like a superior version of Simulacrum, having full casting potential but requiring your character do nothing for the duration but also doesn't use up any spells except the PI cast. Not to mention the further exploitative BS that can be pulled off.
Mislead also doesn't work correctly. It's just 2 4th level spells in a single spell cast, and does so near instantly. Improved Invisibility, as per the spell. And a programmed Image of the caster, as per the spell. They have no relation at all to each other, and dispelling or not dispelling the illusion has no effect at all on the invisibility, which is functionally identical to the 4th level spell.
On that note, why the hell aren't the image spells implemented? They're one-hit wonder that don't really do anything, but they're still a distraction or spell soaker, and would make a lot more sense then sending in a bunch of harmless 1 HD creatures to get the mean old mage to waste his spells instead of targeting the party.
The person who brought up minute meteors may/may not have been serious about it but the two spells don't even compare and fire seeds falls far short of amazing. Melfs does 4-7 damage (+3 fire damage) at 5 APR. There is no saving throw. I believe you get 1 ammo per level (up to 17). You can't transfer ammo (not that big of a deal frankly). Its a level 3 spell and its very good..
I was goofin'. I love the spell for those reasons, exactly.
(Uses SCS with prebuffing) Larloch's minor drain does more damage than magic missile at levels 1-2. It and chromatic orb are useful for interrupting the casting of mages/priests (if you have good timing). Since almost every mage in SCS has shield up, magic missile isn't reliable against them. I sometimes find it difficult to tell if a dispel actually removes the shield spell, and I don't want to waste an action zapping them to find out. Plus dispels can remove your own buffs, which I find annoying. I'll often spend a single spell slot on larloch's/chromatic orb. Also, larloch's is the only level 1 ranged damage spell that Xan has, and the 4 hp from the spell is actually helpful given his terrible hp total. Chromatic orb can be fun with avengers once bless loses its magic.
I agree that the Druid level 2 spells are disappointing. (Except for Avengers). I found barkskin moderately useful on my kensai if I knew a fight was coming up, but otherwise its just slow poison and charm person (The resist fire/cold spell is only useful in late game when it has a decent duration, and only barely so.) I rarely use those slots.
I suppose infravision is the worst spell since it doesn't do anything. There are a lot of spells that I never use in BG 1 though: chill touch, reflected image, shocking grasp, ghoul touch, nondetection, protection from cold, confusion, contagion, polymorph other, polymorph self, magical stone, shillelagh, flame blade, goodberry, spiritual hammer, cure disease, rigid thinking, death ward, negative plane protection, and probably others. Although if any one else has any clever uses for some of those spells I'd like to hear them.
Color spray and sleep. Color spray doesn't work at all in bg2 and same for sleep the saving throws will get you every time. Of course infravision but that goes without saying.
These spells are both death on wheels for most of BG1. They are so good in BG1, I take one of them (sleep typically) even with a sorcerer.
Baldurs gate 1, bg1 not baldurs gate 2 like I orgionally stated.
Color spray and sleep. Color spray doesn't work at all in bg2 and same for sleep the saving throws will get you every time. Of course infravision but that goes without saying.
These spells are both death on wheels for most of BG1. They are so good in BG1, I take one of them (sleep typically) even with a sorcerer.
Baldurs gate 1, bg1 not baldurs gate 2 like I orgionally stated.
I don't understand how two of the most powerful spells in BG1 get put on a list of least useful spells for all of BG when they are level 1 spells. It seems natural and appropriate to me that a spell that is available at 1st level and decimates anyone it affects would not scale up past a certain point.
The Command spells seem like an apples to oranges comparison. First, they are cleric spells and so not available to any Sorcerer and unavailable to most mages. Second, it is appropriate that Command would be marginally useful later in the game since it only affects 1 target (not AOE like sleep and color spray) and only has a 1 round duration (unlike sleep and color spray). Greater Command is a 5th level cleric spell so the fact that it would be more useful in BG2 seems like a no brainer.
For BG2, I agree that sleep and color spray are useless but considering they are almost AOE save or die spells you have to make their usefulness limited to weaker enemies or they would be radically overpowered.
Comments
The number of zombie animals animated would scale as the character advances in level, but it would be pretty weak at low levels: only undead rats, cats, squirrels, chickens, and so forth at 1st level (lol). Eventually, at higher levels, it would make sense for Dread Wolves and even zombie Polar Bears to be created by the spell.
You don't have to level drain them to death, the lost hp from being level drained also counts if it pushes them into the negative.
Minor drain is weak because it restores health. Mages aren't supposed have efficient use of health restoring and any spell that includes it is heavily penalized in some way. (Like VT having a really long cast time, and requires melee range (the original version was almost instant cast, but in order to gain health you had to grapple the target and you gained a small amount of hp per round (1d4+1 per 2 levels) you maintained the grapple (reminds me very strongly of how JoJo vampires drink blood).
Enchantment spells arent too useful in BG, and especially annoying when cast on your party by enemy mages, but they were designed to work brilliantly as crowd control spells in later D&D games, especially in Dungeons and Dragons online. Erm, DAO reduced the number of all types of spells, and dumbed the spell system down considerably, this wasnt a good thing.
These types of spells still existed in DAO, but all types of spells were in far fewer numbers giving less options to play with. DAO did not have a better spell system than any true D&D based game.
Fire seeds does 2-16 fire damage at 1 APR. Saving throw for half damage. You get 4 ammo (no more no less). You can transfer ammo to a fighter to improve the APR (but in what world would it be worth it to use another character to throw these instead of having them using a ranged weapon?) or just cast haste and get 2 APR (or cast improved haste on a level 13 fighter and get up to 4 APR). You can't even improve the APR if you specialise (or grandmastery) in darts or slings (I know I just tested it). It gets a slight area of effect which is hardly worth mentioning. Ohh and of course its a level 6 spell (and there are more worthy level 6 spells even for druids). Like I said, far short of amazing for any character.
Creeping doom is one of my favorite spells in the entire game.
Melfs Minute Meteros and Energy Disks on a Swashmage or Kensage
Also, while I'm here Bolt of Glory bypasses resistances, while Flame Strike is subject to both resistance to fire and magic. Sometimes it matters.
One thing I loved about Neverwinter Nights was all the missile spells they had added to the game (lesser and greater missile storms). I wish that each type of spell / damage had a valid scaling with levels and higher level versions available.
There is no negative energy type in BG. In NWN, there is, and undead are properly healed by it.
Technically the Cause line of spells, and harm are supposed to heal undead even in 2nd Edition, but don't in BG.
Project Image just flat out doesn't work properly....It's only purpose for existence is to allow your character to cast his spells remotely, without being in harms way (DOES NOT grant vision, so you need to use in combination with Wizard's eye/Far-sight/Crystal Ball to fight in battles you can't see from your hiding place (The Baelnorn version DOES include sight and even manipulation of objects under 5 pounds, since they place a small amount of their spirit into to it, but it costs them 1 HP per use). Any spells cast through it are supposed to be used up on the caster.
It currently functions like a superior version of Simulacrum, having full casting potential but requiring your character do nothing for the duration but also doesn't use up any spells except the PI cast. Not to mention the further exploitative BS that can be pulled off.
Mislead also doesn't work correctly. It's just 2 4th level spells in a single spell cast, and does so near instantly. Improved Invisibility, as per the spell. And a programmed Image of the caster, as per the spell. They have no relation at all to each other, and dispelling or not dispelling the illusion has no effect at all on the invisibility, which is functionally identical to the 4th level spell.
On that note, why the hell aren't the image spells implemented? They're one-hit wonder that don't really do anything, but they're still a distraction or spell soaker, and would make a lot more sense then sending in a bunch of harmless 1 HD creatures to get the mean old mage to waste his spells instead of targeting the party.
I agree that the Druid level 2 spells are disappointing. (Except for Avengers). I found barkskin moderately useful on my kensai if I knew a fight was coming up, but otherwise its just slow poison and charm person (The resist fire/cold spell is only useful in late game when it has a decent duration, and only barely so.) I rarely use those slots.
I suppose infravision is the worst spell since it doesn't do anything. There are a lot of spells that I never use in BG 1 though: chill touch, reflected image, shocking grasp, ghoul touch, nondetection, protection from cold, confusion, contagion, polymorph other, polymorph self, magical stone, shillelagh, flame blade, goodberry, spiritual hammer, cure disease, rigid thinking, death ward, negative plane protection, and probably others. Although if any one else has any clever uses for some of those spells I'd like to hear them.
Damn plot device spell for the NPCs...
The Command spells seem like an apples to oranges comparison. First, they are cleric spells and so not available to any Sorcerer and unavailable to most mages. Second, it is appropriate that Command would be marginally useful later in the game since it only affects 1 target (not AOE like sleep and color spray) and only has a 1 round duration (unlike sleep and color spray). Greater Command is a 5th level cleric spell so the fact that it would be more useful in BG2 seems like a no brainer.
For BG2, I agree that sleep and color spray are useless but considering they are almost AOE save or die spells you have to make their usefulness limited to weaker enemies or they would be radically overpowered.