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Drizzt's Gear, the moral dilemma

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  • HeindrichHeindrich Member, Moderator Posts: 2,959
    edited August 2013
    Lateralus said:

    Morte50 said:

    "Only if you get caught" isn't really how morality works though, now is it?

    Besides, quickly switching a blade from someone's sheath without being noticed is, again, not overwhelmingly realistic unless said person is unconscious at the time.


    I have an 18 CHA. It's perfectly reasonable to suggest that I talked him into seeing Twinkle after gaining his trust. I mean, I did stick my neck out for him, we are practically bros. After seeing that I can weild Twinkle, he knows I am good. So I check out the other one too and then whammy. Potion of invisibility. Sure Drizz't would get Golem level angry after that. And I PROMISE TO FEEL BAD ABOUT IT. But I mean...dude treasure is my vice. Doesn't make me bad considering the fact that i am not the one fleeing the troubles of the Sword Coast but instead running head first into it. In fact, I would have kindly asked for the blades to further my cause for good, making him the selfish greedy jerk! Thats how 18 CHA rogues roll

    CG = my own moral compass which is GOOD, it just disagress with Drizz'ts. And so I will leave him my normal scimitars so he will not be defensless as he scurries home. :)
    I'm sorry but this defense is flimsy and wishful thinking. Just accept that your generally good Charname did a bad thing cos the temptation was too great. You're defense is like saying 'I'm a loyal and good husband... but I got a vice for beautiful young women, so I couldn't help cheating. But I'm still good!'

    My Charname feels great shame over what he did to Drizzt, and also great regret that Shandalar's daughters died in the botched attempted to steal the sky ship components. He has had to live with the guilt ever since, and is disgusted with himself that he had to work with a Thieves Guild again in Athkatla, although at least this time he hasn't been tasked with acts of criminality.
  • LateralusLateralus Member Posts: 903
    Sure it does. Robinhood stole from the rich to help benefit those in need, and he did that because it was for goodness sakes. The rich were unwilling to help those who seek to help the region, because they had neither the time or the inclination. Taking their resources to save lives is an act of chaotic goodness.

    I am not on trial here, the character i portray is. And that character means to put an end to the bandit raids and end the iron crisis thus preventing war and saving innocent lives. Either Drizz't thought about aiding the Sword Coast or he didn't, and so he becomes an unwilling resource that my character will exploit to save lives.

    And if that simutaneously satisfies his lust for treasure so be it. Although, I could promise to return the blades to him as well.

    In short, making one person angry by stealing, to save the lives of thousands, is an act of goodness.
  • HeindrichHeindrich Member, Moderator Posts: 2,959
    Lateralus said:


    In short, making one person angry by stealing, to save the lives of thousands, is an act of goodness.

    The problem here is that you are assuming your one act of evil will save thousands of lives. For all Charname knows, he might be able to save the Sword Coast without Drizzt's weapons, or he might be doomed to fail even if Drizzt joined him in the quest.

    The real life Robin Hood probably wouldn't be considered a 'Good' character. But the mythologised version of him robbed only corrupt nobles and greedy merchants... i.e. 'Evil' individuals.

    It's like in BG my Good party never make use of the 'Friends' spell when buying things in Athkatla, Beregost or Baldur's Gate, because it's tantamount to stealing, which of course they also never do. However down in Ust Natha, in a city full of evil Drow, employing every dirty trick the party knows would seem perfectly fine.
  • LateralusLateralus Member Posts: 903

    Lateralus said:


    In short, making one person angry by stealing, to save the lives of thousands, is an act of goodness.

    The problem here is that you are assuming your one act of evil will save thousands of lives. For all Charname knows, he might be able to save the Sword Coast without Drizzt's weapons, or he might be doomed to fail even if Drizzt joined him in the quest.

    The real life Robin Hood probably wouldn't be considered a 'Good' character. But the mythologised version of him robbed only corrupt nobles and greedy merchants... i.e. 'Evil' individuals.

    It's like in BG my Good party never make use of the 'Friends' spell when buying things in Athkatla, Beregost or Baldur's Gate, because it's tantamount to stealing, which of course they also never do. However down in Ust Natha, in a city full of evil Drow, employing every dirty trick the party knows would seem perfectly fine.
    I agree, but he seized an opportunity to improve his odds of aiding the Sword Coast, and let's face it. He put his life and reputation on the line to gain valuable resources to aid others. Kind of like Batman, he wont be known as a hero until it's all over.
  • Permidion_StarkPermidion_Stark Member Posts: 4,861
    edited August 2013
    Lateralus said:

    mylegbig said:

    You're a thief. Thieves steal.

    This is a simple and smart explanation, and it shows an accurate reflection of my low wisdom. It does justify angering Drizz't, but the conundrum is this: I can not kill Drizz't without setting 7 traps for him to walk into. That takes a minimum of 7 days to plan for, and that is cold and calculating murder. Even the dumbest characters are going to figure out that it was their own fault he attacked after 7 days of plotting revenge. If I could stand toe to toe with him and dismiss it as defending myself, I would.
    It is possible to kill him without resorting to traps (or at least it was in BG1 - things may have changed in BG:EE)

    If you go onto the island at the top of the page and then lure Drizzt towards you by firing arrows at him he will come to the edge of the river. Then, because the pathfinding is so bad, he will just stand there while you turn him into a pin cushion. It isn't exactly a fair fight but you do at least give him a chance - if you get it wrong he will dice you up in no time. If you decide to try it you will need to stock up on arrows because you are going to need a lot of them. You might also want to find something else to do while the fight is going on because it can take an awfully long time.




  • LateralusLateralus Member Posts: 903
    @ Heindrich1988 Besides, the protagonist doesn't know if he will ever come across magical wepons again, and being in an iron crisis, that trully adds to the desperation.
  • LateralusLateralus Member Posts: 903

    Lateralus said:

    mylegbig said:

    You're a thief. Thieves steal.

    This is a simple and smart explanation, and it shows an accurate reflection of my low wisdom. It does justify angering Drizz't, but the conundrum is this: I can not kill Drizz't without setting 7 traps for him to walk into. That takes a minimum of 7 days to plan for, and that is cold and calculating murder. Even the dumbest characters are going to figure out that it was their own fault he attacked after 7 days of plotting revenge. If I could stand toe to toe with him and dismiss it as defending myself, I would.
    It is possible to kill him without resorting to traps (or at least it was in BG1 - things may have changed in BG:EE)

    If you go onto the island at the top of the page and then lure Drizzt towards you by firing arrows at him he will come to the edge of the river. Then, because the pathfinding is so bad, he will just stand there while you turn him into a pin cushion. It isn't exactly a fair fight but you do at least give him a chance - if you get it wrong he will dice you up in no time. If you decide to try it you will need to stock up on arrows because you are going to need a lot of them. You might also want to find something else to do while the fight is going on because it can take an awfully long time.




    I know all the ways, it's the moral ramifications that this thread debates.


    I got my pick pockets skill up to 85, killed every gnoll myself, successfully hid in shadows, snuck up behind him and attempted to steal the swords. After 5 failed attempts I got one of them, and the very next round I got instantly chunked! lol

    And just like that the sword coast is doomed. :)
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  • Permidion_StarkPermidion_Stark Member Posts: 4,861


    It is possible to kill him without resorting to traps (or at least it was in BG1 - things may have changed in BG:EE)

    If you go onto the island at the top of the page and then lure Drizzt towards you by firing arrows at him he will come to the edge of the river. Then, because the pathfinding is so bad, he will just stand there while you turn him into a pin cushion. It isn't exactly a fair fight but you do at least give him a chance - if you get it wrong he will dice you up in no time. If you decide to try it you will need to stock up on arrows because you are going to need a lot of them. You might also want to find something else to do while the fight is going on because it can take an awfully long time.

    Yeah, didn't they fix that in BG:EE? :)
    I don't know. My steam-powered Mac can't handle BG:EE so I can't play until I can afford a new computer (on the plus side I'm one of the few people who isn't really too bothered about when the next patch will be released)

  • Permidion_StarkPermidion_Stark Member Posts: 4,861
    Lateralus said:


    I know all the ways, it's the moral ramifications that this thread debates.

    I realise that. I just thought that since you are attempting to rationalise murder shooting him full of arrows seemed a bit less premeditated than spending a week setting up traps.
  • LateralusLateralus Member Posts: 903
    edited August 2013

    Lateralus said:


    I know all the ways, it's the moral ramifications that this thread debates.

    I realise that. I just thought that since you are attempting to rationalise murder shooting him full of arrows seemed a bit less premeditated than spending a week setting up traps.
    I see, yes I suppose that would be better. If I had 240 poison arrows and some boots of speed I would be able to take him down on my own, and have it seem kind of knee jerk.

    That is some sweet mithril mail...

    Traps make it over really quick, tis a shame.
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    edited August 2013
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  • HeindrichHeindrich Member, Moderator Posts: 2,959
    edited August 2013
    thespace said:


    I'm all about Chaotic Good, baby! Follow your own moral compass. If the Sword Coast needs ya to have powerful weapons to battle evil with, and Drizzt's just gonna bolt for the Icewind, well maybe it's time someone else put them to use... I usually roll with Viconia anyway, and I'm sure she'd consider it going easy on the chap.

    I'm sorry but 'follow your own moral compass' does not equate with Chaotic Good. Battling Evil does not make you Good.

    If you do an objectively evil act with no remorse, you are probably evil. Being 'Chaotic' does not make an asshole a nice fella. Chaotic just reflect's a person's attitude to law and order.

    For example Joe and Jon are both 'Good' people who want the best for their country and countrymen, which is ruled by a brutal dictatorship that you may consider 'Evil' (though in real life it's never that simple).

    Joe is Chaotic, and hence believes that society should rise up against tyranny and overthrow the dictatorship in a revolution that will bring freedom. So he organises an underground cell, carries out attacks against government infrastructure, occasionally causing civilian casualties, which pains him greatly, because he is Good and cares for the welfare of others.

    Jon however is Lawful. Whilst he also believes that the government is corrupt and things need to change, he believes that the suffering that would result from a mass violent uprising would far surpass the suffering of the people living under dictatorship. Instead he hopes to improve his country through gradual reform, by changing the system from within. He joins law enforcement, hoping to curtail police brutality and bring about genuine rule of law. He is horrified by violent attacks against government facilities by Joe's organisation, and considers Joe to be a terrorist.

    As a result, although ultimately Jon and Joe are both 'Good' and want the same thing for their country, they are on opposing sides of a conflict that arises from their views on the values of Order and Freedom, which are diametrically opposed to each other.

    Neither Jon nor Joe would condone ransacking and forcibly taking the possessions of every rich or even middle class citizen in their country, killing those that resist, even if the resources would be used to provide for the poor or strengthen/better the country.
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  • Morte50Morte50 Member Posts: 161
    Lateralus said:

    Sure it does. Robinhood stole from the rich to help benefit those in need, and he did that because it was for goodness sakes. The rich were unwilling to help those who seek to help the region, because they had neither the time or the inclination. Taking their resources to save lives is an act of chaotic goodness.

    I am not on trial here, the character i portray is. And that character means to put an end to the bandit raids and end the iron crisis thus preventing war and saving innocent lives. Either Drizz't thought about aiding the Sword Coast or he didn't, and so he becomes an unwilling resource that my character will exploit to save lives.

    And if that simutaneously satisfies his lust for treasure so be it. Although, I could promise to return the blades to him as well.

    In short, making one person angry by stealing, to save the lives of thousands, is an act of goodness.

    As @Heindrich1988 pointed out, Robin Hood is hardly a great example of moral virtue. The fact that those rich people may not have been interested in helping the poor doesn't mean stealing from them is morally justifiable. The fact that Drizz't has better things to do than resolve some local iron issues doesn't absolve you (your character) from stealing his swords either. It's morally wrong however you slice it.

    Sure, in certain circumstances it may well be morally justifiable to steal something. If some greater good clearly requires it, for example. But that in no way applies here. There is no obvious reason to assume that you absolutely require magical weaponry to solve the bandit problem, let alone these weapons in particular. At best, it *might* slightly increase your odds down the road, but by that reasoning you could justify pretty much anything. Why not rob a couple of merchants you meet on the road? Maybe kill them a little bit if they resist? After all, you *might* need the cash to do good later on.

    Besides, if your character is so bent on solving the bandit problem, what on earth is he doing alone in the middle of nowhere randomly running into Drizz't in the first place? It is hardly on the route between any of the plot-relevant locations. And why not recruit some willing companions to help root out the bandits, a couple of mages or an archer are going to help you more than a somewhat better sword.

    There is no moral dilemma here. There are no exigent circumstances that justify stealing those swords. Sure, you can concoct a story that would 'fit' with a CG alignment. You could also CLUAconsole them in and make pretend that he gave them to you, either way it has little to do with roleplaying. Which is fine, you are obviously free to play the game however you want to. But then why this thread? Why not accept that either you roleplay all the way and can't get the swords, or that otherwise you must break from the roleplaying for a moment to improve your game-play experience?
  • Morte50Morte50 Member Posts: 161
    thespace said:


    I'm all about Chaotic Good, baby! Follow your own moral compass. If the Sword Coast needs ya to have powerful weapons to battle evil with, and Drizzt's just gonna bolt for the Icewind, well maybe it's time someone else put them to use... I usually roll with Viconia anyway, and I'm sure she'd consider it going easy on the chap.

    How do you know stealing those swords won't stop Drizz't from accomplishing a far greater good than you are ever likely to? Besides, that moral compass has to point roughly in the direction of 'good' for it to fit with a chaotic good alignment. Stealing from people because you *think* it *might* enable you to do more good doesn't qualify, that's just thinly disguised (if that) thuggery. That's a bit like the police taking your shiny new sports car (or all your money, or your carefully curated collection of assault rifles, etc.) because they think it'll improve their chance of catching the bad guys at some later date.
  • LateralusLateralus Member Posts: 903
    thespace said:

    You don't have to "waste" points in Pick Pockets...as I'm pretty sure potions of mastery thievery stack! Drink 2, 3 or even 4......or have Garrick steal them...probably after drinking said potions. It's probably better to have >100 in PP for this task...maybe >120 if doing a no-reload.

    I'm all about Chaotic Good, baby! Follow your own moral compass. If the Sword Coast needs ya to have powerful weapons to battle evil with, and Drizzt's just gonna bolt for the Icewind, well maybe it's time someone else put them to use... I usually roll with Viconia anyway, and I'm sure she'd consider it going easy on the chap.

    Awesome post! I hope they stack that would RULE!
  • LateralusLateralus Member Posts: 903
    There are some really intrigueing posts that I would like to respind to but I am drinking and I would not do them justice right now.

    I would like to share my current solo run. I tried again, and this time Xzar was moving up to engage him in conversation while I did the theft. Failed once then succeeded on the next two! I quickly engaged in conversation before he knew what happened and bid him farwell.

    Since I acquired those blades I have cut a bloody swath across the Sword Coast. In and out of the shadows in a blink of an eye, slaughtering man and beast with gruesome results. In a word: awesome.

    If stealing those swords is wrong i don't wanna be right!
  • LateralusLateralus Member Posts: 903
    Morte50 said:

    thespace said:


    I'm all about Chaotic Good, baby! Follow your own moral compass. If the Sword Coast needs ya to have powerful weapons to battle evil with, and Drizzt's just gonna bolt for the Icewind, well maybe it's time someone else put them to use... I usually roll with Viconia anyway, and I'm sure she'd consider it going easy on the chap.

    How do you know stealing those swords won't stop Drizz't from accomplishing a far greater good than you are ever likely to? Besides, that moral compass has to point roughly in the direction of 'good' for it to fit with a chaotic good alignment. Stealing from people because you *think* it *might* enable you to do more good doesn't qualify, that's just thinly disguised (if that) thuggery. That's a bit like the police taking your shiny new sports car (or all your money, or your carefully curated collection of assault rifles, etc.) because they think it'll improve their chance of catching the bad guys at some later date.

    Ever hear of the "Patriot" Act? The government invades tax payers privacy all the time. Violating their homes and destroying their dignity and sense of self worth. My apartment was "lawfully" broken into by cops because I listened to Green Day's Insomniac all the time and my neighbor thought i was a terrorist. What they do is evil but from their point of view it is a good thing. It's a matter of perspective.
  • Morte50Morte50 Member Posts: 161
    Lateralus said:


    Ever hear of the "Patriot" Act? The government invades tax payers privacy all the time. Violating their homes and destroying their dignity and sense of self worth. My apartment was "lawfully" broken into by cops because I listened to Green Day's Insomniac all the time and my neighbor thought i was a terrorist. What they do is evil but from their point of view it is a good thing. It's a matter of perspective.

    That's the thing: morality isn't *just* a matter of perspective. Obviously people are going to differ on what they see as right or wrong. But I would say that the general consensus is that right and wrong apply generally, that there is a certain objectivity or universality to it. If I murder someone for his money this is morally wrong (from pretty much anyone's moral perspective), regardless of whether I deluded myself into thinking it was a selfless and noble deed.
  • LateralusLateralus Member Posts: 903
    Morte50 said:

    Lateralus said:


    Ever hear of the "Patriot" Act? The government invades tax payers privacy all the time. Violating their homes and destroying their dignity and sense of self worth. My apartment was "lawfully" broken into by cops because I listened to Green Day's Insomniac all the time and my neighbor thought i was a terrorist. What they do is evil but from their point of view it is a good thing. It's a matter of perspective.

    That's the thing: morality isn't *just* a matter of perspective. Obviously people are going to differ on what they see as right or wrong. But I would say that the general consensus is that right and wrong apply generally, that there is a certain objectivity or universality to it. If I murder someone for his money this is morally wrong (from pretty much anyone's moral perspective), regardless of whether I deluded myself into thinking it was a selfless and noble deed.
    Sounds like my chaotic good character simply made a bad decision, and now he has to live with it.

    Sad.
  • LateralusLateralus Member Posts: 903
    edited August 2013
    Okay. I have found the answer. I thank you all for your help!

    Here it is:

    Traveling south to Nashkel, staying clear of the roads to avoid the bandit ambushes. The Party of CHARNAM has finished building a camp, and then growls and barks are heard up ahead. A halfling scout scurries ahead to see what manner of beast is causing the commotion. Suddenly, the rest of the party is surprised by a pack of dogs.

    After slaying the dogs, the party goes to search for their scout and CHARNAM calls out, "Monty?! Pssst...it was just a pack of dogs, it's too dark out here to be wonde...". A head lands at the feet of CHARNAM, and into the moonlight steps a Drow elf! A war band of slaughtered gnolls can now be seen on the blood soaked ground. He quickly and silently approaches. Khalid steps forward to parlay, "Dr dr dr dr Driz Dri Drizz't?! Thank goodness you are here! What did that evil ha hahaha ha halfling sa..." Before he could finish his sentence, his limbs were cut asunder. Jaheira and Imoen scream in terror and disbelief, CHARNAM looks to Imoen and says, "Run!" as he moves to attack the legendary drow elf. Jaheira steps in his path, "You must survive!" and hands him a vial. She turns, and closes her eyes the instant before her head is launched into the night sky and blood spurts out of her arteries like a fountain back at Candlekeep. Precisely where CHARNAM wishes he was as he backs away terrified, stumbling to the ground as the drow flicks clean the blood from his cold gleaming blade and smirks. He thinks to himself, "Another ambush, more friends and family slaughtered, I can not take this, I will not!". Just then an arrow pierces the shoulder of Drizz't, he winches, and then like a lightning bolt of pure darkness he closes the distance and slaughters the child before she could let loose another arrow.

    "NOOO!", screams CHARNAM.

    "You bandits do not discriminate I see, a young woman and, what's this? An orc I see before me?".

    "HALF-orc, and you will die on this land, I swear it." As he quaffs the potion of invisibility.

    "I will track you down, orc, nothing can hide from me."

    The game of cat and mouse ensued for many nights, and it ended with a series of 7 spike traps impaling the famed ranger to death. From that moment on, CHARNAM vowed to work alone.

    Unknown to CHARNAM, a wondering bard named Yolo wagon carted the remains of the fallen to a far away land.

    To be continued.
  • ambrennanambrennan Member Posts: 173
    My apartment was "lawfully" broken into by cops
    Which is not really the same kind of break-in (essentially, they are executing a search warrant without telling you... without bothering with the search warrant)
    Ever hear of the "Patriot" Act?
    In any case, what's your point? Not every law enacted is automatically morally right, and in particular when it comes to intelligence governments get extremely paranoid and enact stupid and completely ineffective measures at the drop of a hat.
  • LateralusLateralus Member Posts: 903
    @ ambrennan I'm not sure I had one there, I was kind of rambling. Sorry about that. ;^
  • HeindrichHeindrich Member, Moderator Posts: 2,959
    Lateralus said:


    Sounds like my chaotic good character simply made a bad decision, and now he has to live with it.

    Sad.

    Well... I'm glad you finally realise the error of your ways :P

    Your scenario is... umm... well it kinda resolves Charname of committing an obviously evil act. The problem however, is that Drizzt is good, and he would not attack a random party in the wilderness like an outta control beserker, even if the first guy he saw was a shifty looking Monty.

    I guess you did punish yourself for the result, if u indeed make the rest of ur run as a solo effort, and take the reputation hit.
  • LateralusLateralus Member Posts: 903

    Lateralus said:


    Sounds like my chaotic good character simply made a bad decision, and now he has to live with it.

    Sad.

    Well... I'm glad you finally realise the error of your ways :P

    Your scenario is... umm... well it kinda resolves Charname of committing an obviously evil act. The problem however, is that Drizzt is good, and he would not attack a random party in the wilderness like an outta control beserker, even if the first guy he saw was a shifty looking Monty.

    I guess you did punish yourself for the result, if u indeed make the rest of ur run as a solo effort, and take the reputation hit.
    Montoron's attitude convinced Drizz't he was an evil halfling, and I guess we are guilty by association because he doesn't cool down after slaying the one who initiates the negative dialogue. :)

    I will work hard to repair my reputation and live by my vow.
  • AscerionAscerion Member Posts: 271

    He's a doppleganger! ^-^ Wouldn't the real Drizzt have a panther with him?

    Also he made a 'yo momma' joke - about YOUR mom. :|

    Wait a minute... That's a damn good question. Where was Guenhwyvar?

    Oh, wait. Was he taking a nap in the astral plane maybe? He should still have the onyx figurine on him.

    We should get that figurine. O_O
  • ogrebogreb Member Posts: 98
    edited August 2013
    He has insurance.
    Mutual of Underdark.
    Let him explain how a couple of noobs stole his stuff.

    What would have been cool, is that if even you successfully stole his stuff and got away, he would come looking for you.
    Imagine fighting the Demonknight or the demon in Ulgoths Beard...and poof ! there is Drizzt in the middle of the fight looking for his stuff back.
    Even the demon would step back saying " Hey I didn't know I'd be fighting him...I'm outta here"
    Of course Drizzt would not kill you for stealing his stuff...he would beat the crap out of you though.
    Which is why I don't understand the whole Drizzt episode in BG2.( Either having his sword or using his name)
    That would be beneath the Drizzt I've read about. If you were evil that is one thing...but come on !
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