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Spellcasting Words (Translation and Discussion)

VarwulfVarwulf Member Posts: 564
edited September 2013 in Archive (General Discussion)
Does anyone know the latin for when a priest casts spells like cure disease, and some of the healing spells? I think the male voice for this spell is very addictive to the ears, especially with the magical surge sound you can hear in the background while the priest says this spell.

Sorry for the stupid question, but I am one of those types who, when my mind has a question (mostly for itself), it can't stop focusing on the question until it has an answer, no matter how menial the question's importance may be :)

Post edited by Dee on
BelgarathMTHCalmarStarflower2525Proont
«1

Comments

  • HeindrichHeindrich Member, Moderator Posts: 2,959
    @belgarathmth

    Wow so *that's* what they are saying! I thought it was just a made up language!

    "Incertus, Pulcher, Imperio" and "Facio, Voco, Ferre" used to inspire fear in me each time I heard it coming outta an enemy. lol

    JLeeBelgarathMTHStarflower2525
  • VarwulfVarwulf Member Posts: 564
    5) Abjuration: "Manus, Potentis, Paro" = "A hand, powerful, I prepare"

    Thank you, sir! :)

    BelgarathMTH
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,616
    Hey, we all have a superlatively fun and cultural-trope reinforcing example of "Latin-as-the-language-of-Magic" in the Harry Potter novels and movies!

    J.K. Rowling is a genius. She may have lucked into her current multi-millionaire fortunes, but she started in financial poverty with nothing to change her situation but a keen, and yes, GENIUS, awareness of cultural tropes in The West, not the least of which was the trope of "Latin = Magical Power."

    Take a dead language, which has nevertheless connected with every root syllable in the contemporary languages of all contemporary political powers who have actual POWER on planet Earth. Invoke the death of that dead language at every opportunity in mythology creation or story-telling to bring in THE NUMINOUS.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numinous

    Win, win, win, all around, for both the invoker, AND the reader, viewer, listener, or player. @God kind of just does that to people. @God is kind of awesome, and I say that as an atheist. :D

    @God just has a certain way about HimHer, as I perceive HimHer, and I don't even believe that HeShe exists! I just imagine such an Awesomeness to exist. But, ain't it grand to be a conscious being who can imagine such an Awesome Being? Hmm, I think that the philosophers call that little gem that I just invoked "the Ontological Argument" for @God's existence, or something like that.

    JuliusBorisovGrammarsaladalnair
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,616
    Btw, my Kantian moral sense, as determined by the Moral Argument for @God's existence, demands that I quote the source of my translations, and not risk that anyone should give me credit for them:

    http://www.shsforums.net/topic/17190-what-the-casters-say/

    There is a very fascinating discussion there, that Latinophiles like me should find interesting, and, I copy-pasted from the post of @-DarkAsKnight3050- from which I copy-pasted my guide in the second post, above.

  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,616
    Sigh, and one more thing, and please forgive me for multiple posting here, but, I always hear that last word in the "necromancy" chant as "Carne", as opposed to "Careo".

    Translated, that would be "Life, Death, Flesh!", which makes a lot more sense to me than the "Careo" meaning "I am without", or "I lack".

    I think mine is a better auditory perception of the chant for healing:

    "Vitae, Mortis, Carne!"

    "Life, Death, Flesh!"

    That sounds a lot more like a healing spell, to me.

    :D

    JuliusBorisovProont
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,616
    edited August 2013
    @Lord_Tasheron, ROFL! Yes, yes, my good friend, you have valid points all around, and I interpret you to be trying to counter the ubiquitous Eurocentrism that permeates Western culture.

    And, indeed, that's all well and good, and, in a way, you have trumped all counterarguments.

    However, I would propose this little countertrump:

    J.K. Rowling is a multimillionaire, after her "little" taking of advantage of what I put forth as Western cultural tropes. You and I still have to work for a living, and worry about paying our bills.

    Rowling never has to worry about money again. You and I, on the other hand....

    So, who's the "genius" now, hmmm?

    "Praeses, Alia, Fero!"

    Yay, I have all the money in the bank that I will ever need, and I can just play Baldur's Gate and mess about with the BG:EE forums and all my good friends in there forever, and, yay, Happy Happy Joy Joy!



    LOL. Please forgive my silliness. I'm feeling rather "happy, happy, joy, joyful" right now, and, honestly, I both envy and congratulate J.K. Rowling on her hitting it rich by invoking just the right cultural tropes at just the right time!

    I can feel "happy, happy joy, joyful" just because of my non-belief in the existence of @God, and, also, my good friends @Shandyr and Bobby McFerrin, who once made me adopt this:



    as my personal themesong.

    LOL. Don't worry, be happy!

    Oh, hey, here's something on topic:

    Nolite ergo solliciti esse beata!
    Or:
    Bono animo esto ac feliciter vive!
    Or:
    Nullae in reliquam vitam curae!

    Post edited by BelgarathMTH on
    [Deleted User]alnair
  • blackchimesblackchimes Member Posts: 323
    I knew it was latin but always thought the lines were random. Didn't know they were tied to schools; that's cool.

    BelgarathMTHAristilliusQuantumDroneProont
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    On the subject of the Latin = Magic trope, the Dresden Files novel series subverts it quite a bit. Main character Harry Dresden only uses pseudo-latin because it helps him concentrate and sounds 'right' to him. A wizard in the Dresdenverse could literally say anything they wanted, as long as it doesn't ruin their concentration. Although, granted, the official ruling body of wizards, the White Council, does speak Latin in its meetings, but that's because they're mostly old school Merlin-like wizards. The highest ranking member of the White Council is even called a Merlin.

    So, yeah, read the Dresden Files. Those books are amazing.

    pekirtProont
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,198
    It's a trope, that doesn't mean it's law. There is a plethora of examples where this isn't the case, but as you yourself illustrated, it's very hard to separate oneself from such "tradition" even in a universe where there is no actual meaning attached to the words. Just goes to show how deeply entrenched these socialized parameters are.

  • FredjoFredjo Member Posts: 477
    edited August 2013


    Also, I'd be very careful about Western-/Eurocentrism. Never forget that half the world speaks Chinese or an Indian language, which have very little if anything to do with Latin. The associated socio-cultural implications are similarly absent in those cultures. Even just counting "actual POWER", India, China, and Japan alone easily match the US, Europe, and Russia, and constitute a completely different background in terms of socialization (and to that add the "less powerful" cultural spheres of Africa and South-East Asia, which make up the bulk of the world's population). It's easy to take a Western position and viewpoint for granted, but that's not something you should do in this day and age.



    I wouldn't say indian languageS are that different, but other than that you're right.
    For those interested I include a couple of links where you can read more about the connection of Indian languages with European and the so called Proto-Indo-European (PIE) language

    http://www.friesian.com/cognates.htm
    http://web.cn.edu/kwheeler/IE_Main4_Sanskrit.html

    And for those who are quite open-minded :)
    http://www.sino-platonic.org/complete/spp115_chinese_proto_indo_european.pdf

  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 8,161
    Dee said:

    Ah, pidgin Latin.

    The literal translations above are more or less correct, although I would propose these as the actual meanings being conveyed:

    "Veritas credo oculos" (Illusion) could also be translated as "Truth, I trust my eyes".

    "Incertus pulchra imperio" (Evocation) could mean "I control beautiful mysteries".

    "Vita mortis careo" (Necromancy) is better translated as "I separate life from death".

    "Praeses alia fero" (Alteration/Transmutation) could mean "I, protecting, bring change".

    "Scio didici pecto" (Divination) is actually three verbs, which loosely means "I know, I have learned, I seek [to know more]".

    "Manus potentis paro" (Abjuration) is better translated as "I prepare a powerful hand".

    "Facio, Voco, Fero" (Conjuration) is a bit like Divination, three verbs: "I make, I call, I bring".

    "Cupio virtus, licet" (Enchantment) is pretty straight-forward, and kind of says a lot about enchanters in general: "I desire bravery; let it be permitted!"

    That makes FAR more sense! I didn't know you knew Latin @Dee!

    I think the Latin is cool, but I still prefer the original casting sounds brought back from the original BG1 by @Akuro.

    JuliusBorisovAkuroPeccaProont
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,198
    edited August 2013
    Fredjo said:

    I wouldn't say indian languageS are that different, but other than that you're right.
    For those interested I include a couple of links where you can read more about the connection of Indian languages with European and the so called Proto-Indo-European (PIE) language

    While you're correct in that there is a definite relation between PIE/Indo-Germanic languages, keep in mind that this happens on a different time scale. Germanic and Proto-Germanic already existed when the Romans brought Latin there. Historically, the influence of Latin is a much more recent event than the influence of PIE - and by much I mean on the order of thousands of years. Conversely, the influence of Latin on the Indian languages is comparatively minor; while there was contact with Asia in Roman times, the cultural spheres did not overlap nearly as much as they did within Central and Northern Europe. Many European languages have marked Latin influences (particularly the Romanic, Celtic, Slavic and Germanic languages), while the Indian languages have little to none. Aside from the linguistic argument, the cultural one is even stronger; there never was a Roman presence in India, while most of Europe is riddled with a history strongly influenced by the Roman Empire and its successors, especially the Catholic Church.

  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,616
    edited August 2013
    I've been playing IWD2 lately, and all the incantations are different! The one for Cure spells sounds like "Voce, Voce, Perrum!" or something like that. I just failed in an attempted Google search to find this other set of Latinate incantations.

    Can anyone help?

    EDIT: Maybe it's "Facio, Voce, Fero!", which would be Conjuration in BG. Are the schools maybe just switched around?

    EDIT#2: Whelp, I just went into my IWD2 game program, and saw that in IWD2, healing spells have been changed to Conjuration school. So I guess I just found the answer to my own question. Apologies.

  • FredjoFredjo Member Posts: 477
    edited August 2013

    Fredjo said:

    I wouldn't say indian languageS are that different, but other than that you're right.
    For those interested I include a couple of links where you can read more about the connection of Indian languages with European and the so called Proto-Indo-European (PIE) language

    While you're correct in that there is a definite relation between PIE/Indo-Germanic languages, keep in mind that this happens on a different time scale. Germanic and Proto-Germanic already existed when the Romans brought Latin there. Historically, the influence of Latin is a much more recent event than the influence of PIE - and by much I mean on the order of thousands of years. Conversely, the influence of Latin on the Indian languages is comparatively minor; while there was contact with Asia in Roman times, the cultural spheres did not overlap nearly as much as they did within Central and Northern Europe. Many European languages have marked Latin influences (particularly the Romanic, Celtic, Slavic and Germanic languages), while the Indian languages have little to none. Aside from the linguistic argument, the cultural one is even stronger; there never was a Roman presence in India, while most of Europe is riddled with a history strongly influenced by the Roman Empire and its successors, especially the Catholic Church.
    I'm not quite sure why do you mention Germanic or Proto-Germanic and Indo-Germanic(be aware that the term "Indo-Germanic is obsolete ) PIE alone covers all European languages and all Indian languages except Basque and the Uralic languages of the Northeastern Europe
    Mythology is shared amongst all Indo-European people from Irish to southern Indians.

    I do agree that the cultural diversification that came with the new monotheism of christians made a huge culural gap between us(Europeans and Indians). I wasn't really trying to say that we share the so called "Christian Latin" culture, I was trying to point out that the Latin language is in a strong relationship with Indian languages and that Latin doesn't have "very little" to do with them.

  • NyroxNyrox Member Posts: 19
    I've always been curious over this myself and I assumed it was gibberish until I read this and saw it wasn't. This does make me curious, however...

    Are they also chanting in Latin in Neverwinter Nights 1 and 2 when they cast spells as well? If they are, does anyone here know what they say there?

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,198
    Fredjo said:

    I'm not quite sure why do you mention Germanic or Proto-Germanic and Indo-Germanic(be aware that the term "Indo-Germanic is obsolete ) PIE alone covers all European languages and all Indian languages except Basque and the Uralic languages of the Northeastern Europe
    Mythology is shared amongst all Indo-European people from Irish to southern Indians.

    I do agree that the cultural diversification that came with the new monotheism of christians made a huge culural gap between us(Europeans and Indians). I wasn't really trying to say that we share the so called "Christian Latin" culture, I was trying to point out that the Latin language is in a strong relationship with Indian languages and that Latin doesn't have "very little" to do with them.

    Because the time-scale difference is important. While both have roots in PIE, that influence is thousands of years old. Time and distance have ground down much of it, and we speak of different languages and cultures for a reason. Latin's influence however is comparatively recent, and consequently its influence is much more pronounced. Not to mention that the cultural influences are far more evident than those of the Indian and proto-Indian cultures, whose influence over Europe happened many thousands of years ago. Speaking of contemporary comparisons, the parallel evolution of Eastern and Western cultural spheres has been quite divergent, and though they share common roots if you go back in time far enough, the common elements become more and more obscure the further back you go. The (classic, i.e. Western) Roman Empire ended what, 1500 years ago? The influence of PIE dates back several times that. And Latin as a language didn't end with the Empire either, it continued in active usage for over a thousand years, and is in fringe use even today within the Catholic church. Its influence on Western culture is *very* pronounced. The influence of Indian and proto-Indian languages and cultures, while extant, is not. As such, the "average" person of a Western socialization has a much more defined idea about Latin language and culture than they would ever have about Indian/proto-Indian, and conversely an average "Eastern" person has less of an idea about Latin, and more of whatever other dominant culture existed in their respective cultural sphere (i.e. Chinese in the Far East, Arabic in the Middle East, etc.).

    The point of all this is simply that the use of Latin or Pseudo-Latin in magical and occult invocations draws on a certain cultural knowledge and image that is particular to "Western" societies. Regardless of the common roots of many European and Indian languages, the distinct cultural and linguistic influences of (classical) Latin are a defining characteristic predominantly of cultures that were exposed to the Roman Empire and its successors directly. The more you distance yourself from that sphere of influence, the less pronounced the influence becomes, and subsequently the less of an effect you gain from using Latin/Pseudo-Latin to invoke feelings of mysticism or the occult.

  • FredjoFredjo Member Posts: 477

    Fredjo said:

    I'm not quite sure why do you mention Germanic or Proto-Germanic and Indo-Germanic(be aware that the term "Indo-Germanic is obsolete ) PIE alone covers all European languages and all Indian languages except Basque and the Uralic languages of the Northeastern Europe
    Mythology is shared amongst all Indo-European people from Irish to southern Indians.

    I do agree that the cultural diversification that came with the new monotheism of christians made a huge culural gap between us(Europeans and Indians). I wasn't really trying to say that we share the so called "Christian Latin" culture, I was trying to point out that the Latin language is in a strong relationship with Indian languages and that Latin doesn't have "very little" to do with them.

    Because the time-scale difference is important. While both have roots in PIE, that influence is thousands of years old. Time and distance have ground down much of it, and we speak of different languages and cultures for a reason. Latin's influence however is comparatively recent, and consequently its influence is much more pronounced. Not to mention that the cultural influences are far more evident than those of the Indian and proto-Indian cultures, whose influence over Europe happened many thousands of years ago. Speaking of contemporary comparisons, the parallel evolution of Eastern and Western cultural spheres has been quite divergent, and though they share common roots if you go back in time far enough, the common elements become more and more obscure the further back you go. The (classic, i.e. Western) Roman Empire ended what, 1500 years ago? The influence of PIE dates back several times that. And Latin as a language didn't end with the Empire either, it continued in active usage for over a thousand years, and is in fringe use even today within the Catholic church. Its influence on Western culture is *very* pronounced. The influence of Indian and proto-Indian languages and cultures, while extant, is not. As such, the "average" person of a Western socialization has a much more defined idea about Latin language and culture than they would ever have about Indian/proto-Indian, and conversely an average "Eastern" person has less of an idea about Latin, and more of whatever other dominant culture existed in their respective cultural sphere (i.e. Chinese in the Far East, Arabic in the Middle East, etc.).

    The point of all this is simply that the use of Latin or Pseudo-Latin in magical and occult invocations draws on a certain cultural knowledge and image that is particular to "Western" societies. Regardless of the common roots of many European and Indian languages, the distinct cultural and linguistic influences of (classical) Latin are a defining characteristic predominantly of cultures that were exposed to the Roman Empire and its successors directly. The more you distance yourself from that sphere of influence, the less pronounced the influence becomes, and subsequently the less of an effect you gain from using Latin/Pseudo-Latin to invoke feelings of mysticism or the occult.
    Yes, we can agree on that, as I did in my last post.

  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,616
    edited August 2013
    @Nyrox, I just spent close to an hour trying to Google information about those NWN incantations, to no avail.

    The one for Cure Light Wounds sounds to me like:

    Obidiah Medulla Makat

    Stoneskin sounds like:

    Obidiah Ne Bora Sisna

    Cat's Grace sounds like:

    Forat Um Matu

    "Medulla" in Latin means middle, or bone marrow. Makat could be a form of the verb for "to make". "Forat" means "it pricks". "Matu" means morning. It sounds more like "maklu" to me, though, which doesn't mean anything in Latin. "Ne Bora" would mean "not the hour". "Sisna" looks like a form of the verb "to be" in the second person. "Not you, or you are not", maybe.

    The trouble with trying to do this by ear, is that none of the consonants are clear. We would really need a definitive list of exactly what the voice actors are reading, because their pronunciation is often off.

    Then, we don't really know what the language is. Latin is common for this trope, but it could also be ancient Greek, or Sumarian, Babylonian, or Egyptian for all we know, without some help from a developer.

    So unless one of them remembers who wrote it, and exactly what it said, we'll probably never know.

    I'm not sure how those people from the forum I linked managed to capture the BG Latin so well. I guess Latin is a little easier to figure out, if it really is Latin, than if they used a more exotic dead language.

    EDIT: Just looked up "Vora". That means "devours". So that stoneskin one might say "Omnes Dii Ne Vora Sisna" which could loosely mean "For all the gods, you shall not, be devoured."

  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 3,009
    Quidquid latine dictum sit altum videtur magis.

  • NyroxNyrox Member Posts: 19
    Sorry about the long time to reply.

    @belgarathmth You have a better ear than me, I thought it was all gibberish until Varwulf told me about this post. If it is a real language, which it certainly looks like, that is a touch that I find pretty cool.

    The stoneskin chant would fit, it has certainly stopped my characters from being devoured by many a foe.

    Shame that we might never know but it does make it feel a little more fun to know that my characters are chanting in a archaic language. I like the chant where my Warlock casts his Eldritch Blast from NWN2 best, but all I can hear from that is :

    "Corps, nas preota"

    Which is most probably wrong.

    VarwulfBelgarathMTH
  • GodGod Member Posts: 1,150
    edited August 2013
    Language. One thing I'm certainly proud of.
    Mathematicians are often heard making a bold claim: "Mathematics is the language which God used to describe the world with". They certainly wish I did, don't they? The hell I would.
    The initial, and fatal, mistake mathematicians make is to assume It can be that there are things and there are no things. As in '1' and '0', which is the foundation of, roughly, all modern science. Starting at this starting point is nowhere near being colourblind. It's endlessly worse than that. See, what mathematics fails to notice is that there is nothing. And there is also everything, which is composed of something or, to be more exact, somethings. Then, there is also all that is beyond. This might be confusing a bit, but don't worry - I'll be a scumbag god and give no clarification whatsoever. Philosophers have (sometimes with my help) failed to understand the nature of Nature for a few good millions of years, don't feel obliged to understand it yourselves yet. Anyway, back to my point: what mathematics disastrously fails to accomplish is not quite as much trouble to language. Using language, you can freely talk about e.g. legendary colourless blue fluffy iron toga-clad speaking mute human rabbits of hell who dwell in the fabric of Jan Jansen's nocturnal mental habits, while maths starts crying when faced with a simple concept like e.g. culture. That is, dear children, why language evolves much faster than maths. I even heard that you have developed several distinct languages over the last few aeons. Most cute!
    Please, don't hate me for hating mathematics. Hate me if you wish, though be warned that I consider maths an ideology dangerous to human survival prospects.

    @belgarathmth
    I have prepared a place for you. And you know that.

    Post edited by God on
    Alonso
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,616
    ROFLMAO. Ah, my dear, dear, friend, @God, who I am quite sure doesn't exist. I think I made You up as my Imaginary Friend when I was a child, and then I had You grow into an adult Imaginary Friend along with me, as *I* grew into an adult.

    True to form, You contribute maddeningly little of any specific nature to the topic at hand.

    Although, I deeply appreciate that very creative tribute to Steven Pinker. ;)

    I actually got a gift from You today, in the form of a free download of a game that once gave me much joy during the 1990's, "Dark Wizard", originally for the Sega CD, and, my what a trip I am having playing it again! It is one of Your finest creations, I do declare! I'm about to start a thread for it in the Off-Topic forum. You even, through an apparent rare moment of divine benevolence, left a few crumbs scattered about the internet with all the technical clues I needed to reconstruct the ancient game in a miracle of Yours, called an "emulator". Even though it was all just vague enough to take me about three hours of my time this morning to find enough info to get it up and running.

    Now, back on-topic: I know that You could tell us *exactly* what all these spell incantations are saying in both BG and in Neverwinter Nights, if You wanted to, being omniscient and all, but, I *know* You quite well. You are, of course, going to refuse to just hand over to us any such specific information.

    It's "good" for us to try to figure it out for ourselves, and all that.

    I do love You, You know. Even though You won't do me the courtesy of existing. ;)

  • Night_WatchNight_Watch Member Posts: 514
    does anyone know what the latin is for bg1 whenever a mage cast fireball? it starts off slow and foreboding and then gets really angry and loud. something along the lines of 'du canipna wo angry loud voice!' i remember hearing it a lot in vanilla bg1 (not just with fireball, i think i've heard it with mage armour a few times), but i can't recall if it's in bg:ee as well.

    on the subject of dog latin (or w/e you call it) my personal favorite is: fabricati diem, pvnc XD

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