Upon creation, F/T is clearly superior. I like my CHARNAME to be great through all the game, not only in endgame. This is how it looked at level 1:
F/T with 18/xx STR get more DMG and THAC0 from start compared to a 18 STR Swash F/T with 18 CON starts with 12 HP compared to 8 HP for a Swash Swash with DEX 18 start with AC 5, F/T starts with AC 6 (unarmored, and F/T can equip a heavy armor in the beginning if wanted) F/T starts with 3/2 APR, Swash starts with 1 F/T can place 4 proficiency points, can backstab and has a wider weapon selection, Swash can only place 2 proficiency points
Swashies can quickly close that gap though. APR is really the biggest thing fighter/thief will have over the buckler of swashes.
I've started a campaign with a lawful evil female fighter I plan on dualing to thief (and changing to swash via EE keeper) and so far it's fun. I used the 1st portrait from the first page and the british sounding voiceset. I picked scimitars for flavour but might change that to longswords, not sure yet.
For those that dual, is level 7 good enough or should I wait for BG2EE and level 13? I figure if I dual at 7, I'll level up swash to level 3 and then hold off until level 8 and put my final pips to grand master my weapon of choice and finish two weapon style.
If you dual at 7 you should be able to get your fighter abilities back before the BG:EE XP cap. You can also get grandmastery. If you want to play a fighter-thief character in BG1 then I'd recommend this. It misses out on some THACO and HP compared to a level 9 dual and is not optimal, but the difference isn't going to be crippling.
If you're putting off dualling until BG2 then 9 and 13 are the cutoffs for HP and APR respectively. Waiting until 13 will mean you spend the majority of SOA without thief skills though, while a level 9 dual will have a lot less downtime. The 13 dual is "optimal", but a pain in the neck unless you're soloing and hoarding XP rewards with metagame knowledge.
While I prefer straight classes, the Fighter/Thief is a fantastic class… Coran is one of my favorite NPCs ever. However, might I suggest the Bounty Hunter? You won't be as powerful as a Fighter/Thief but it opens up a lot of interesting tactics.
Upon creation, F/T is clearly superior. I like my CHARNAME to be great through all the game, not only in endgame. This is how it looked at level 1:
F/T with 18/xx STR get more DMG and THAC0 from start compared to a 18 STR Swash F/T with 18 CON starts with 12 HP compared to 8 HP for a Swash Swash with DEX 18 start with AC 5, F/T starts with AC 6 (unarmored, and F/T can equip a heavy armor in the beginning if wanted) F/T starts with 3/2 APR, Swash starts with 1 F/T can place 4 proficiency points, can backstab and has a wider weapon selection, Swash can only place 2 proficiency points
Swashies can quickly close that gap though. APR is really the biggest thing fighter/thief will have over the buckler of swashes.
As far as I can see from progressiontables, F/T is still superior when hitting 161.000XP. Backstab, more HP more, more proficiency points, more ATR. Both has base THAC0 14. I am not really sure about AC, but Swash has a bit more damage. F/T still has the benefit of equipment, he can put on a heavy plate and a big shield if needed. I don't know about BG2:EE, but as long as you play the first game, F/T seems to stay a bit better...
I voted fighter/thief, but my personal preference has always been fighter dual-classed to thief (or mage). The downside is you have to be human and miss out on racial bonuses to thieving and racial abilities. Also, if you go for the optimal dual (level 13 for fighter), then you spend a long time in SoA trying to regain your locked abilities. Kensai/thief was especially painful (even though thieves level quickly) . Kensai dualed to mage gained experience ridiculously fast from simply learning spells (though it seems likely to change in BG2EE).
The upsides are a better thac0, lots more HP, more pips in weapons and styles, and end-game OPness of doom. Getting there does hurt though. f/t multis get many more hlas and always have all their skills available. As for playing a straight swashy, maybe if you used a shorty or half-orc it'd be worth it. In the end it's just a matter of what you prefer.
One last thing... it's been 8 or 9 years since my last SoA/ToB run, but iirc, there's ioun stones and a rogue's hood which block crits just like helms do.
Yeah, another factor is that F/Ts can use potions of giant STR, and get up to what? 24 STR? whereas a Swashbuckler can only use a STR potion, 18.
Thats largely the case. In one important (BG1) battle however swashbucklers could use the violet potion that gives you 25 strength. They would of course need to use a potion of agility and potion of fortitude, but it would give them 25 strength, 18 dexterity, and 18 constitution in that one battle
The UAI is a major perk for the swashie. I believe they can also get greater whirlwind? Not sure on that.
Both the F/T multiclass and Swashbucklers would get access to UAI at roughly the same time. The swashbuckler can only get Whirlwind attack (gives 10APR but also -4 to Thac0 and -4 to damage).
In this case dual-classing is significantly mitigated by only having access to 1 set of HLAs. I actually think that in terms of throughout-saga use that multiclassed F/Ts do very well compared to their dual-classed or single-classed counterparts. They have a better endgame THAC0 and HP but worse AC than swashbucklers, comparable THAC0 to Kensai->thieves and still get both Fighter and Thief HLAs.
While Spike Trap and Use Any Item are great, there are a couple of Fighter HLAs (Critical Strike and Hardiness) that offer fairly unique advantages and synergise well with gear or party buffs like Improved Haste.
@Corvino: I agree, the difference between K->T and F/T is very small. I prefer Kensai damage bonuses still, and with Kai they usually end up adding more overall than Critical Strike. Hardiness is useful, but situational and can be replaced. GWW is largely superfluous with IH (though not entirely). But yeah: very small differences. Small enough to make it a personal choice.
@Lord_Tansheron I just posted on the "How to Disagree" thread in the Off-topic forum acknowledging my complete hypocrisy on this topic. It's utterly a matter of personal choice, and the difference between one and the other is just about wide enough to hold sheet of paper.
It should probably be noted, but if you're playing BG1 through BG2 those small differences at endgame are much more in favour of the F/T in the early game. Kensai just isn't great in BG1, and the wait while leveling the dualed class is also less fun. These are also the spots when backstabbing is most useful in a meaningful way also. Plus you can be demi-human and get shorty saves.
If powergaming the whole saga I think F/T wins. If you're all about "most power at max level" then it probably slightly loses out.
My original BG1 character was a fighter/thief in BG1 in an attempt to fake a swashbuckler. When Swashbucklers were introduced in BG2 I changed over and never looked back. Because really being one is more fun than faking one. :P
The only reason to take the swashbuckler kit is if you can't or won't use the backstab ability. He's some kind of a fighter, but if I want a fighter I'll take a fighter, or if I want a fighter with thief abilities I'll take the F/T multiclass. Fun? If I want fun I'll go with a dual class F->T. He is better than the vanilla thief, but weaker than a fighter\thief or dualed one in combat. Still dualing the swashy is a good choice.
I'd have to say Swashbuckler, since dual-classing prevents you from ever advancing in the fighter or thief class again, depending on which you began as. Swashbuckler melds the two, to give you a rogue who can hold their own in close combat.:)
Comments
For those that dual, is level 7 good enough or should I wait for BG2EE and level 13? I figure if I dual at 7, I'll level up swash to level 3 and then hold off until level 8 and put my final pips to grand master my weapon of choice and finish two weapon style.
Thoughts?
If you're putting off dualling until BG2 then 9 and 13 are the cutoffs for HP and APR respectively. Waiting until 13 will mean you spend the majority of SOA without thief skills though, while a level 9 dual will have a lot less downtime. The 13 dual is "optimal", but a pain in the neck unless you're soloing and hoarding XP rewards with metagame knowledge.
However, might I suggest the Bounty Hunter? You won't be as powerful as a Fighter/Thief but it opens up a lot of interesting tactics.
The upsides are a better thac0, lots more HP, more pips in weapons and styles, and end-game OPness of doom. Getting there does hurt though. f/t multis get many more hlas and always have all their skills available. As for playing a straight swashy, maybe if you used a shorty or half-orc it'd be worth it. In the end it's just a matter of what you prefer.
One last thing... it's been 8 or 9 years since my last SoA/ToB run, but iirc, there's ioun stones and a rogue's hood which block crits just like helms do.
While Spike Trap and Use Any Item are great, there are a couple of Fighter HLAs (Critical Strike and Hardiness) that offer fairly unique advantages and synergise well with gear or party buffs like Improved Haste.
If powergaming the whole saga I think F/T wins. If you're all about "most power at max level" then it probably slightly loses out.
I still think a kit dual is more fun, maybe.
while swash is really gimped fighter
He's some kind of a fighter, but if I want a fighter I'll take a fighter, or if I want a fighter with thief abilities I'll take the F/T multiclass. Fun? If I want fun I'll go with a dual class F->T.
He is better than the vanilla thief, but weaker than a fighter\thief or dualed one in combat.
Still dualing the swashy is a good choice.
Swash single class is just for flavour.