Can't believe so many are voting for the Swash, it's decent and all but it's no F/T. I dunno if anyones mentioned this in the four pages but ioun stones and anything else that finds its way into your helmet slot will protect you from critical hits.
You can get good damage, thac0 and AC with a Swash, but it's always gonna be a but flimsy compared to a F/T which has higher HP and can get higher damage resistance. I'm not really bothered to do any damage per round calculations but while the Swash might hit a bit harder, he's gonna have a harder time generating higher APR - he can dual wield SNT and Belm which is fine but you'd rather have a better weapon than the SNT in the main hand and before HLAs the F/T is gonna outright win in this regard. Lack of backstab hurts too.
I would let RP reasons decide. What kind of character are you going to play?
If he's a pirate/highwayman/duelist kind of deal (somehow the epitome of charm and/or grace), go swashing.
If he's a dedicated fighter intending on being just that - a dedicated fighter - (with a dab of handy thieving abilities, go fighting-thiefing. But maybe dual from Thief to Figher instead of multi-classing.
Can't believe so many are voting for the Swash, it's decent and all but it's no F/T. I dunno if anyones mentioned this in the four pages but ioun stones and anything else that finds its way into your helmet slot will protect you from critical hits.
You can get good damage, thac0 and AC with a Swash, but it's always gonna be a but flimsy compared to a F/T which has higher HP and can get higher damage resistance. I'm not really bothered to do any damage per round calculations but while the Swash might hit a bit harder, he's gonna have a harder time generating higher APR - he can dual wield SNT and Belm which is fine but you'd rather have a better weapon than the SNT in the main hand and before HLAs the F/T is gonna outright win in this regard. Lack of backstab hurts too.
I'd probably prefer the fighter/thief, as well, but not everyone likes the slow leveling of multiclasses (which can be EXTREMELY tedious at times). Plus, once you can pick Use Any Item, Swashbucklers can also use helmets. Their AC will eventually get to the point of being higher than that of a fighter wearing heavy armor. IIRC, I read some calculations that have determined that the Swashbuckler will actually do more damage than the Fighter/Thief in the late game (ToB). And thats not even mentioning the sheer number of extra thief points that the Swashbuckler will have compared to the F/T.
That said, not sure if I could stand starting a Swashie at level 1 and having to level it up without being able to start out dual-wielding, which is probably the only reason I'd take the fighter/thief instead.
edit: Also, with the rogue rebalancing mod, the Swashbuckler will have the same THACO as a fighter. Only two reasons to choose F/T over the Swashbuckler, really. For more weapon profs and the ability to backstab.
By the time Swashbucklers get UAI and hence use heavy armor AC has started to become less valuable compared to large HP pools and damage resistance, giving the F/T the edge.
I like swashbucklers, but the HP, APR and HLAs of the F/T are pretty convincing in my book.
Multiclass F/T doesn't get all that much more HP, and if fighter HLAs are being talked about, I assume the comparision is multiclass only. Thac0 difference is only 2 at max level (base 0 vs base 10-8=2).
HLAs are nice for sure, and it sucks that swashies only get lesser WW. Extra 1.5 APR is pretty big. More weapons choices is nice. Backstab may or may not be a big thing depending on personal preference. Not having it makes stealth skills very low priority, which means you can have all the utility skills early, including traps, and especially detect illusions which F/T can't really afford for big portion of the game, and even pickpocket for fun and profit (and less reliance on potion of thievery stacking, which is kind of an exploit). On the other hand, Up to +8 damage on each attack, helps to make up for less APR. Up to -9 AC. Which if stacked high with complementary items, is still very nice vs hordes of generic mobs even at the end of TOB.
With that said, F/T is more powerful in BG1, and probably more powerful in BG2 too. But the poll isn't about what's more powerful, it's about what is more fun, so not even sure why all the comparisons.
Swashbucklers are almost fighters due to their bonuses. The only disadvantage is that they have absolutely no backstab multiplier. Swashbucklers are a viable damage class as opposed to a fighter because while they don't have the Thac0 or weapon mastery of a fighter, their bonus to hit and damage will eventually have them doing more damage per hit than a fighter. Their bonus armor eventually gives them better armor class (while using the best leather armors) as compared to a fighter using the best plate armors. They lose out on the HP of a fighter, however. Still, they suffer no penalties to thief skill distribution, allowing you to stealth, set traps, disarm traps, open locks, etc. at a better rate than the other thief kits. The armor bonus makes Swashbucklers an excellent choice to dual-class into mages and even fighters or clerics. You'll want to dual- around level 10 or 11 to capitalize on the AC bonus. Considering you cannot stealth while wearing heavy fighter armors and cannot backstab with any cleric weapon, the downside is negligible. Mages tend to stay in the background, fighting from a distance anyway.
The two play differently start to finish. Here are just a few thoughts on why i like swashbuckler, in spite of the inferior consistent melee damage at end game:
--fast leveling early game as a thief --reasonable to have detect illusion sooner, which is akin to true seeing, as well as set traps sooner, as well as pick pockets --staff of the ram + ww provides 10 apr when you really need to crank out melee damage late in ToB
It's true that she isn't the Everlast baddy meat grinder a dual wielding warrior can become; playstyle is more as a clever thief than a brute and can sometimes requires solutions other than "I move toward it and it dies".
Backstab. Run for cover and hide in shadows. Backstab again. That's how a fighter-thief should operate, and they're nearly invincible doing so. A swashbuckler can do more damage standing and fighting, but even with fighter levels, what kind of thief stands and fights? You shouldn't allow the enemy to damage you, that's how you die. Also, fighter-thieves get more APR if you do insist on fighting like a man.
The fast leveling isn't to be underestimated. Sure, a comparable fighter has a better thac0 at equal levels in theory, but in practice the levels won't be equal. The swashy will be several levels ahead oF a fighter at all times, and especially a multi-class fighter. Between that and the bonuses the thac0 question is kind of moot.
The fast leveling isn't to be underestimated. Sure, a comparable fighter has a better thac0 at equal levels in theory, but in practice the levels won't be equal. The swashy will be several levels ahead oF a fighter at all times, and especially a multi-class fighter. Between that and the bonuses the thac0 question is kind of moot.
You get +4 to hit when attacking from invisibility, though. And the fighter-thief is the one with a strong incentive to do so.
The fast leveling isn't to be underestimated. Sure, a comparable fighter has a better thac0 at equal levels in theory, but in practice the levels won't be equal. The swashy will be several levels ahead oF a fighter at all times, and especially a multi-class fighter. Between that and the bonuses the thac0 question is kind of moot.
You get +4 to hit when attacking from invisibility, though. And the fighter-thief is the one with a strong incentive to do so.
Another good point, just wanted to say thanks and acknowledge me being kinda wrong. I hate backstabbing myself, so I tend to not even consider it.
Comments
As for me, I just have tons of fun as a swashbuckler. Your mileage may vary.
For just BGEE then I'd say its a toss-up.
You can get good damage, thac0 and AC with a Swash, but it's always gonna be a but flimsy compared to a F/T which has higher HP and can get higher damage resistance. I'm not really bothered to do any damage per round calculations but while the Swash might hit a bit harder, he's gonna have a harder time generating higher APR - he can dual wield SNT and Belm which is fine but you'd rather have a better weapon than the SNT in the main hand and before HLAs the F/T is gonna outright win in this regard. Lack of backstab hurts too.
If he's a pirate/highwayman/duelist kind of deal (somehow the epitome of charm and/or grace), go swashing.
If he's a dedicated fighter intending on being just that - a dedicated fighter - (with a dab of handy thieving abilities, go fighting-thiefing. But maybe dual from Thief to Figher instead of multi-classing.
That said, not sure if I could stand starting a Swashie at level 1 and having to level it up without being able to start out dual-wielding, which is probably the only reason I'd take the fighter/thief instead.
edit: Also, with the rogue rebalancing mod, the Swashbuckler will have the same THACO as a fighter. Only two reasons to choose F/T over the Swashbuckler, really. For more weapon profs and the ability to backstab.
I like swashbucklers, but the HP, APR and HLAs of the F/T are pretty convincing in my book.
Thac0 difference is only 2 at max level (base 0 vs base 10-8=2).
HLAs are nice for sure, and it sucks that swashies only get lesser WW.
Extra 1.5 APR is pretty big.
More weapons choices is nice.
Backstab may or may not be a big thing depending on personal preference. Not having it makes stealth skills very low priority, which means you can have all the utility skills early, including traps, and especially detect illusions which F/T can't really afford for big portion of the game, and even pickpocket for fun and profit (and less reliance on potion of thievery stacking, which is kind of an exploit).
On the other hand,
Up to +8 damage on each attack, helps to make up for less APR.
Up to -9 AC. Which if stacked high with complementary items, is still very nice vs hordes of generic mobs even at the end of TOB.
With that said, F/T is more powerful in BG1, and probably more powerful in BG2 too. But the poll isn't about what's more powerful, it's about what is more fun, so not even sure why all the comparisons.
TL;DR - Swashbuckler so cool.
--fast leveling early game as a thief
--reasonable to have detect illusion sooner, which is akin to true seeing, as well as set traps sooner, as well as pick pockets
--staff of the ram + ww provides 10 apr when you really need to crank out melee damage late in ToB
It's true that she isn't the Everlast baddy meat grinder a dual wielding warrior can become; playstyle is more as a clever thief than a brute and can sometimes requires solutions other than "I move toward it and it dies".