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Keeping items at start in BG2:EE, like it was in BG1?

GreenpaktoGreenpakto Member Posts: 80
edited September 2013 in Feature Requests
EDIT: I dont want them to reimplement the bug itself. I am requesting that they implement item import PROPERLY, just as we could in BG1 (and with the use of a bug in BG2)...
Hell, even throne of bhaal allows item import... Which means that they obviously wanted to keep the feature (Bhaal was their last installation in the series, so we can only believe that in the end, they actually wanted to keep the feature intact).



Ok, I started this discussion in a general thread. I will quote some of it, and hopefully you might consider actually implementing a REAL option to keep items.
Dee said:

jamesker said:

When you start a new game of bg2 pause game the instant it loads up, your have your items from bg1 in your inventory, drop them on the ground, and when the prologe is done, you can pick the items up from the ground (personally this spoils the game for me) but it you want the items from bg1 thats how you do it

This exploit has been closed for BGII:EE, I'm sorry to say.
---

So for those who enjoyed that OPTION (read optional) you closed it down completely? I dont know, but personally that was the best bug in the game, since it gave a "alternate" start for bored player. I realize that it was a bug, but for a large amount of players (there was a poll in one of the mod forums a great while back) it felt like it was supposed to be there, and YES, players did use it.


Post edited by Greenpakto on
EdvinkamuizinriyahhassettZanianAlexisisinneed
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Comments

  • typo_tillytypo_tilly Member Posts: 5,614
    You should be able to use Keeper to add items to your character's inventory. Perhaps by starting a game, saving after the cutscene, then saving and using Keeper to add items before re-loading.

    semiticgod
  • GreenpaktoGreenpakto Member Posts: 80
    edited September 2013
    kamuizin said:

    What I always liked about BG was that when you export and import a previous character you got to keep your items, when starting a new game. The items didnt magicaly dissapear as in BG2 (even though I understand that they dissapear due to you being in a cage, its all about a "fun" feature to keep them IMO).

    What I want to ask is if you would consider to actually allow us to keep our items (and gold?) when we start over with a character, instead of items dissapearing? If people find that it doesnt follow the "story" (the cage and torture), well they can just drop their items at free will and start fresh. I would really like to keep my items when starting over in BG2:EE (I am talking about BG2:EE restarts, not imports from BG:EE even though that would be a really nice feature to).

    Please no, people maybe don't understand but this can simply spoil the entire fun of BG2. The reset on the items is an important feature of the game, that make us again start to look for builds to our characters.
    ----

    So basically what you all are saying is that in BG1 theres no replay value with a previous character (or with your words, the game becomes boring), becase we get to keep our items?
    Its a LOT easier to drop all items than adding everything back with the CLUA console, so I cant understand why they couldnt at least add an OPTION to keep items (maybe a "story vs fun question"). Or even better, add a script that places everything from your character to one of the starting chests, pick items up with free will. At least theres a reason to save unique, "hard to find" items on your character this way at export, just as it were in BG1.

    Items import comes with level import IMO... I am a great fan of BG1 that way.

    PS: I guess whichever way it goes, eventually there will either be a mod to keep all items OR loose them anyway, with import.

  • GreenpaktoGreenpakto Member Posts: 80
    edited September 2013

    You should be able to use Keeper to add items to your character's inventory. Perhaps by starting a game, saving after the cutscene, then saving and using Keeper to add items before re-loading.

    Havent used the program a lot to be honest. Doesnt quite know how it works, but the problem with that is that its not official in any way. And it seems like almost the same hassle as using clua?
    I am just looking for something simple that comes official.

    What I mean to say is that I worked hours for these items, I dont want to cheat to get them back every time I restart my game with the SAME char (which happens at least 2 times a week). I simply just want to keep my hard earned items. It worked in BG1 (and with the bug in BG2) so I see no reason why it wouldnt work in BG2:EE... Simply make it optional in a smart way.

  • typo_tillytypo_tilly Member Posts: 5,614
    Irenicus probably sells them :( That's what Imoen says.

    sarevok57elminsterCrevsDaak
  • EdvinEdvin Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 3,024

    Irenicus probably sells them :( That's what Imoen says.

    Which merchant?
    I know all merchants in Athkatla :D

    Allow full items import is little too much, but some items should be granted.
    Like: Girdle of Femininity/Masculinity or Helmet of Opposite Alignment

  • GreenpaktoGreenpakto Member Posts: 80
    edited September 2013
    Edvin said:

    Irenicus probably sells them :( That's what Imoen says.

    Allow full items import is little too much, but some items should be granted.
    Like: Girdle of Femininity/Masculinity or Helmet of Opposite Alignment
    Even this I would be OK with (though I prefer to have an option to keep all items or keep none, "story" friendly). But just knowing I cant keep anything sorta makes it useless importing with items. In Baldurs gate I managed to gather speed of boots for all my characters which also made it a little bit more fun when I wanted to rush a little bit more. It also felt rewarding to replay with exports/imports that way.
    I do sincerely hope BG2:EE decides to allow item importing at least as an option.

    And how will they do this for their next "black pits"? Does that mean that we start witout items in Black Pits as well... Even if Black Pits accepts items, it would mean we would have to have a character saved at the end of throne of bhaal to use the endgame items. I can understand keeping stuff as storyfriendly as possible, but to be honest, BG2 allowed us to keep all items and it was always there as an option not to, even though it was a bug. So theres really no reason not to implement the option.

    I feel like I am repeating myself a little to much now, but I really just want this feature implemented properly. Giving a option to keep items and not, satisfies BOTH players (story wise as well as the HC importers).

  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,867
    Properly, would be deleting your inventory instantly on import (like it does with Bags of holding) after setting flags before loading the level, to prevent the exploit that ever allowed you to keep your items in the first place....which I'm all for.

    As for what happened to it. Some of it he sold, some of it he scattered around his lair (Some items found change depending on what you had on you, there's a list somewhere, though it's missing the part that the genie's weapon is also supposed to be random, chosen between Ashideena, Varscona, Spider's Bane, Dagger of Venom or Sword of Chaos+2 if you had none of those), and some he destroyed in front of you as part of your torture during your months of imprisionment (that epic scene where he sets your precious and unique Cloak of Balduran on fire and made you watch it burn was truly heart-rending, and inspired to be to want to murder the prick all the more).

  • TheGreatKhanTheGreatKhan Member Posts: 106
    I can take not having BG1 items being imported. However I do want the option when I import a character from a BG2 EE game to keep my items.

    I don't see why not, it's a single player game. I'm really not sure why some of you get so butthurt and want everyone to follow some rather harsh standards. I at least leave options for people, not try to take options away from others.

  • dibdib Member Posts: 384
    Or at least make more of the unique items, like Varscona, available somewhere in the game.

    alnairsemiticgod
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,028
    Yeah, I don't really see why they should need to re-add a bug. The game wasn't meant to be played with all your BG1 items. If you really care, you can cheat or mod them in, but the devs don't need to preserve the bug just because you liked exploiting it.

  • EdvinEdvin Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 3,024
    Is it bug, or game secret ? :D

  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,028
    @Edvin, taking your response much more seriously than you probably intent...

    I'm pretty confident that it wasn't intentional. I can't read the minds of the original devs, but given that Trent Oster's team is removing the bug/exploit/feature, I can make a decent guess that it wasn't intentional. Which makes it either a bug or an extreme exploit, and therefore should be removed.

    Taking your response in a more sensible manner...

    :P

  • GreenpaktoGreenpakto Member Posts: 80
    edited September 2013

    I can take not having BG1 items being imported. However I do want the option when I import a character from a BG2 EE game to keep my items.

    I don't see why not, it's a single player game. I'm really not sure why some of you get so butthurt and want everyone to follow some rather harsh standards. I at least leave options for people, not try to take options away from others.

    This. Options... Simple choices that give depth to the player.
    Also, for you others,about the bug reference. I am mentioning it because, the only way to keep the items legit was to drop them at start. It was a GOOD bug which made the game more fun top replay IMO, since I at any point could refer from keeping them. But in all honesty, it didnt exactly feel like a bug. BG was its predecessor and allowed item import. and it didnt break the game at all, so why would it for BG2 (a much more difficult game btw imo, even with imported items)...

    Of course I dont want them to "re-implement" the bug. I just want them to add the option to keep all items in a "proper" way. It was pure and simple with BG1 and it can be just as simple year 2013, BG2:EE.

  • GreenpaktoGreenpakto Member Posts: 80
    I updated top post with an edit.

  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,438
    And there's nothing wrong with cheating.

    I cheat all the time.

    Ravenslightkaguana
  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,679

    kamuizin said:

    What I always liked about BG was that when you export and import a previous character you got to keep your items, when starting a new game. The items didnt magicaly dissapear as in BG2 (even though I understand that they dissapear due to you being in a cage, its all about a "fun" feature to keep them IMO).

    What I want to ask is if you would consider to actually allow us to keep our items (and gold?) when we start over with a character, instead of items dissapearing? If people find that it doesnt follow the "story" (the cage and torture), well they can just drop their items at free will and start fresh. I would really like to keep my items when starting over in BG2:EE (I am talking about BG2:EE restarts, not imports from BG:EE even though that would be a really nice feature to).

    Please no, people maybe don't understand but this can simply spoil the entire fun of BG2. The reset on the items is an important feature of the game, that make us again start to look for builds to our characters.
    ----

    So basically what you all are saying is that in BG1 theres no replay value with a previous character (or with your words, the game becomes boring), becase we get to keep our items?
    Its a LOT easier to drop all items than adding everything back with the CLUA console, so I cant understand why they couldnt at least add an OPTION to keep items (maybe a "story vs fun question"). Or even better, add a script that places everything from your character to one of the starting chests, pick items up with free will. At least theres a reason to save unique, "hard to find" items on your character this way at export, just as it were in BG1.

    Items import comes with level import IMO... I am a great fan of BG1 that way.

    PS: I guess whichever way it goes, eventually there will either be a mod to keep all items OR loose them anyway, with import.
    Please, don't drop the discussion lower at the point of create false statements of mine. This quote was dragged from a previous thread where you asked to make import of BG:EE items to BG2:EE items official. I have nothing against keep the bug, in fact there's an thread in this forum (i have to search for it) where i say how important and part of the game some bugs become with the pass of the years.

    So i will not stay here in this discussion for long, and there is what i think of this issue:

    Yes for keep the bug if people want to pause the game at the start and drop the items on the ground.
    No for make import of items from BG:EE to BG2:EE something permanent and official.
    Exception for make BG2:EE recognize the items in the imported save game/character and make the recognized items appear in the game during the saga of BG2:EE, so you can find them in many places during the pursuit of the main quest and even buy them from merchants. Not for all the items however.

  • GreenpaktoGreenpakto Member Posts: 80
    edited September 2013
    kamuizin said:

    kamuizin said:

    What I always liked about BG was that when you export and import a previous character you got to keep your items, when starting a new game. The items didnt magicaly dissapear as in BG2 (even though I understand that they dissapear due to you being in a cage, its all about a "fun" feature to keep them IMO).

    What I want to ask is if you would consider to actually allow us to keep our items (and gold?) when we start over with a character, instead of items dissapearing? If people find that it doesnt follow the "story" (the cage and torture), well they can just drop their items at free will and start fresh. I would really like to keep my items when starting over in BG2:EE (I am talking about BG2:EE restarts, not imports from BG:EE even though that would be a really nice feature to).

    Please no, people maybe don't understand but this can simply spoil the entire fun of BG2. The reset on the items is an important feature of the game, that make us again start to look for builds to our characters.
    ----

    So basically what you all are saying is that in BG1 theres no replay value with a previous character (or with your words, the game becomes boring), becase we get to keep our items?
    Its a LOT easier to drop all items than adding everything back with the CLUA console, so I cant understand why they couldnt at least add an OPTION to keep items (maybe a "story vs fun question"). Or even better, add a script that places everything from your character to one of the starting chests, pick items up with free will. At least theres a reason to save unique, "hard to find" items on your character this way at export, just as it were in BG1.

    Items import comes with level import IMO... I am a great fan of BG1 that way.

    PS: I guess whichever way it goes, eventually there will either be a mod to keep all items OR loose them anyway, with import.

    So i will not stay here in this discussion for long, and there is what i think of this issue:

    Yes for keep the bug if people want to pause the game at the start and drop the items on the ground.
    No for make import of items from BG:EE to BG2:EE something permanent and official.
    Exception for make BG2:EE recognize the items in the imported save game/character and make the recognized items appear in the game during the saga of BG2:EE, so you can find them in many places during the pursuit of the main quest and even buy them from merchants. Not for all the items however.
    Thanks for jumping in here anyway! I am all for export and import WITHIN BG2:EE only.
    BG:EE to BG2:EE would probably never work unless the idea you posted above could be implmented, I was just spawning thoughts when I mentioned BG:EE to BG2:EE.

    I really just want a proper option to keep items. Now that they ALSO remove the only way of keeping them, I personally know that the game will loose some of its replay fun (for me at least). Replaying as a level 40 with the best items is tons of fun IMO, KNOWING that ive worked for all these item and levels (resorting to cheating breaks the game for me). Its all subjective of course.

    EDIT: When I moved the discussion here I didnt mean to create a false statement. I copypasted some things in a hurry, then typed in answer to what other people said in that thread. I am sorry for that!

    kamuizin
  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,679
    No problem @Greenpakto, it was just a bad first impression, but we worked it well apparently and get even to understand each other and also we have some points where we agree.

  • EdvinEdvin Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 3,024
    edited September 2013
    Dee said:

    And there's nothing wrong with cheating.

    I cheat all the time.

    Boo eats your eyes for that !

    sarevok57
  • TheGreatKhanTheGreatKhan Member Posts: 106
    jaysl659 said:

    ^^ The reason that this shouldn't be expected is because it was a bug... do the devs owe you a "kill Firkraag" button on the interface if they squash a bug or exploit that allows him to be easily killed?
    In other words, stop associating this request with a bug that used to exist (because I don't think it's getting you anywhere) and just request a "new game +" mode which allows you to have all of your items imported...

    just a thought.

    Well that's a bit of a strawman no? Killing Firkraag like that is a blatant exploit that literally makes one of the harder and more rewarding fights of the game nothing. To me that's simply cheating.

    However keeping items I already got from a previous BG2EE run is more of a feature and not a really cheating or exploiting.

    You've won me over however, I now support the "New Game +" feature for importing characters who have played through BG2EE.

  • EdvinEdvin Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 3,024

    You've won me over however, I now support the "New Game +" feature for importing characters who have played through BG2EE.

    Game+ MUST include new content or higher difficulty.
    That is definition Game+.

    Importing characters with crazy levels and even crazier gear to same game isnt game+.
    It's just a dishonorable scam.

  • PeccaPecca Member Posts: 1,944
    edited September 2013
    CamDawg said:

    Uh, you start incapacitated, locked in a cage by a powerful, intelligent mage--there's absolutely no way you can justify keeping your items at the start of SoA.

    "Dear Helm, please recover all my imported items and I will help you in the next possible opportunity, like for example getting rid an evil cult of beholder worshippers and totally shut up about the embarassment of you not being able to see in the sewers."

    PAUSED
    ....

    "Thanks Helm!"


    And that was even the more intricated justification. I usually go with:
    -"Holy cow! How did this Cloak of Balduran appeared in my inventory?!"
    -"A wizard did it."

    kamuizinElectricMonkZaniankaguana
  • ElectricMonkElectricMonk Member Posts: 599

    jaysl659 said:

    ^^ The reason that this shouldn't be expected is because it was a bug... do the devs owe you a "kill Firkraag" button on the interface if they squash a bug or exploit that allows him to be easily killed?
    In other words, stop associating this request with a bug that used to exist (because I don't think it's getting you anywhere) and just request a "new game +" mode which allows you to have all of your items imported...

    just a thought.

    Well that's a bit of a strawman no? Killing Firkraag like that is a blatant exploit that literally makes one of the harder and more rewarding fights of the game nothing. To me that's simply cheating.

    However keeping items I already got from a previous BG2EE run is more of a feature and not a really cheating or exploiting.

    You've won me over however, I now support the "New Game +" feature for importing characters who have played through BG2EE.

    @TheGreatKhan No, it's not a strawman, it's an argument from analogy. Not all comparisons are fallacies.

    As you said the Firkraag exploit makes one of the harder and more rewarding fights of the game nothing and is "simply cheating," well... having a bunch of overpowered items in your inventory at the beginning of BG2 in a way that isn't in any way justified by the story can easily be said to be a blatant exploit that literally makes one of the most rewarding parts of the game (the beginning, introduction of irenicus, struggle to gather wealth, etc.) nothing. So, to me, it is "simply cheating" as well, specifically if we're talking about importing from BG1 (which I know isn't the main request being made by the op).

    As for my comments about new game + mode, according to @edvin such a mode requires added content/difficulty, thanks for the correction as I actually don't know much about it (although I'd say an argument could be made for replaying with your gear on a higher difficulty being a new game + mode according to your definition). My main point here, regardless of what this request should be called, is that it shouldn't be associated with the re-opening of a bug/exploit in my opinion.

    GodKaiserHellJarrakul
  • CamDawgCamDawg Member, Developer Posts: 3,358
    edited September 2013
    Pecca said:

    CamDawg said:

    Uh, you start incapacitated, locked in a cage by a powerful, intelligent mage--there's absolutely no way you can justify keeping your items at the start of SoA.

    "Dear Helm, please recover all my imported items and I will help you in the next possible opportunity, like for example getting rid an evil cult of beholder worshippers and totally shut up about the embarassment of you not being able to see in the sewers."

    PAUSED
    ....

    "Thanks Helm!"


    And that was even the more intricated justification. I usually go with:
    -"Holy cow! How did this Cloak of Balduran appeared in my inventory?!"
    -"A wizard did it."
    You're right. What I should have said is that there's no justification for which a competent DM wouldn't mock you mercilessly and then take your items regardless.

    Like the one you provided:
    image

    ElectricMonksarevok57
  • PeccaPecca Member Posts: 1,944
    edited September 2013
    Eh? I wasn't serious at all. should have added some smiley faces, damn.

    Anyway OP, devs decided to close an exploit. It's hardly something to discuss. It is really easy to cheat in items you like. I see no difference between using this exploit, CLUAConsole, EEKeeper or Near Infinity.

    edit: alright, I realize this was not very helpful comment. You can deduce what devs think about this from their comments here. So the best way you will get to keep your BG1 items in BG2:EE is to edit script named AR0602.BCS with Near Infinity and delete row "ActionOverride(Player1,DestroyAllEquipment())". This way your items won't be destroyed at the beginning of the game. I can do it for you if you like, when BG2:EE is released and post the file here.

    Post edited by Pecca on
  • CamDawgCamDawg Member, Developer Posts: 3,358
    Pecca said:

    Eh? I wasn't serious at all. should have added some smiley faces, damn.

    Heh, fair enough. I think I'm jaded enough from years working on BG2 Fixpack, since arguments like that can and have been advanced as serious.

  • GreenpaktoGreenpakto Member Posts: 80
    This type of feature shouldnt be avoided because of interfering with the story. If so add, all the stuff to the one of the starter chests then... Those who doesnt want the imported items can easily avoid the chest.
    And regarding starting in a cage, well BG allowed imported items and that shouldnt be possible either if we look at the general story.
    - Im about to start my first real adventure, and finally I get to leave this tiny little village!
    - Wuuuut, seems I have about 20 magical items in my inventory, oh and guess what, half of them are from the city Baldurs Gate, which ive never been too (storywise)!

    The aspect of having a choice in the matter of keeping all items should simply be related to what was previously possible in BG as well as BG2 (even though in a bugged way). As well, it is JUST a fun feature for half the playerbase (this is a memorial statistic, from a previous poll at one of the mod forums, about how many used the "feature" in BG2. BG was a 90%). Resorting to cheats to get strong items is NOT fun, because thats just a pure shortcut. Getting the option to import all my items that ive already collected on my spare time can hardly be seen as cheating (IMO, level comes with gear, just look at the Icewind Dale sereies, and half BG series). Its as said, a feature that has worked before (and still does).

    Lets not forget, BG series is in its basic form a SP experience, and as such dont limit players because the reason "overpowered" (even so a level 40 mage without items eats a level 40 itemless fighter, if we talk overpower at import). That said, I personally love to play with a friend now and then, its amazingly fun to coop. And its even more fun to show of you character to a friend at the start of each game. If lan didnt exist for this game, I would probably not play it, cause I really enjoy showing of characters and their progress to friends.

    I could use clua to get back all my items, but speaking from personal experience, once you start to cheat theres no going back (and its a slow process to say at least), you will continue to do so. And for me the game then looses its charm, of working for your stuff.

    ------

    PS: To me what makes baldurs gate/icewind dale series so addictive, easily is the ability to import and export ALL your progress, as well the huge amount of customisation such as limitless amount of custom portraits and soundsets (you can play yourself in looks and sound), making your character truly unique. Taking away a small feature from export-import is IMO damaging to the game! And thats the end of my ramblings for today here.

  • TheGreatKhanTheGreatKhan Member Posts: 106
    Edvin said:



    Game+ MUST include new content or higher difficulty.
    That is definition Game+.

    Importing characters with crazy levels and even crazier gear to same game isnt game+.
    It's just a dishonorable scam.

    Actually it's not necessarily. The last of us game + was simply restarting after you finished with everything you ended the game with. Same with Bioshock.

    Actually you can reimport in BGEE from a final save and start with all the items you ended off with. Is this a dishonorable scam too? It's just a gameplay feature, in a single player game no less.
    jaysl659 said:

    @TheGreatKhan No, it's not a strawman, it's an argument from analogy. Not all comparisons are fallacies.

    As you said the Firkraag exploit makes one of the harder and more rewarding fights of the game nothing and is "simply cheating," well... having a bunch of overpowered items in your inventory at the beginning of BG2 in a way that isn't in any way justified by the story can easily be said to be a blatant exploit that literally makes one of the most rewarding parts of the game (the beginning, introduction of irenicus, struggle to gather wealth, etc.) nothing. So, to me, it is "simply cheating" as well, specifically if we're talking about importing from BG1 (which I know isn't the main request being made by the op).

    It's an analogy yes but not a great one, hence the straw man. Though only slightly. I'm asking for an import feature that allows me to import an already existing BG2ee char into BG2ee with items he gained in BG2ee not items from BGEE. This isn't cheating as I gained the items myself. If an ask for a button that simply kills firkraag in one shot, that's quite a bit different.

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