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Fighter/Cleric or Fighter/Mage who would win???

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  • DreadnaughtDreadnaught Member Posts: 92
    I only used sanctuary against the golems in BG2 De' Anrise Keep. I don't know what it could do in this fight.

  • DurenasDurenas Member Posts: 505
    Load it up at the very start, then start buffing yourself. With Robe of Vecna + amulet of power, it should be insta-cast. Then you can start buffing yourself.

  • riyahhassettriyahhassett Member Posts: 59
    A smart cleric would cast gate, then sanctuary. What can a Mage do against a pit fiend?

    Dreadnaught
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,207
    Amberion said:

    Load it up at the very start, then start buffing yourself. With Robe of Vecna + amulet of power, it should be insta-cast. Then you can start buffing yourself.

    Fighter / Cleric's can't use Robe of Vecna (though they can use the Amulet of Power). Fighter/mages can use both.

  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,207
    I think based on the criteria that have been laid out its a battle that comes down mostly to luck around magic resistance. Saving throws aren't as important because there are quick casting wizard spells in particular (power word: blind, power word: silence, etc) that don't allow any.

    Dreadnaught
  • DreadnaughtDreadnaught Member Posts: 92

    A smart cleric would cast gate, then sanctuary. What can a Mage do against a pit fiend?

    Lol that would be fun to watch.

  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    Amberion said:

    Don't priests have Sanctuary? I can't remember exactly the mechanics but doesn't it make them unattackable? So they could cast whatever buffs they needed while it's up.

    AOE. Besides, mage defences can outlast cleric ones. And mages have much better offensive spells plus debuffs.

  • lamaroslamaros Member Posts: 139
    edited October 2013
    Clerics will have more levels, and be able to dispel better. But I just don't think they have enough ways to kill and interrupt, even if they can outlast the timestops.

    Their best choice is probably to summon/gate stuff and then sanctuary hide.

    Apart from that it's just a case of whoever fails a save first loses.

  • AstafasAstafas Member Posts: 448

    A smart cleric would cast gate, then sanctuary. What can a Mage do against a pit fiend?

    Aren't there spells that instakill summons? Like Death Spell?

  • DurenasDurenas Member Posts: 505
    I think Gate isn't technically a summons, since it's really just a spell that opens a portal to the abyss. The demon isn't compelled to come through, but it does anyway because they all want to come to the prime material plane.

    Dreadnaught
  • CorvinoCorvino Member Posts: 2,269
    Can you cast dispel without breaking sanctuary? Hostile action definitely breaks it, but I don't know if dispel counts. But yes - gated fiends would be tough for a mage to deal with, and if the cleric can then hide and chuck out the occasional dispel it could be nasty.

  • ryuken87ryuken87 Member Posts: 563
    Errr Protection from Evil...

    Even without it a Pit Fiend isn't a big deal for a F/M.

  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,207
    edited October 2013
    Corvino said:

    Can you cast dispel without breaking sanctuary? Hostile action definitely breaks it, but I don't know if dispel counts. But yes - gated fiends would be tough for a mage to deal with, and if the cleric can then hide and chuck out the occasional dispel it could be nasty.

    I just tested it (using dispel magic with sanctuary) and I wasn't able to.

  • DreadnaughtDreadnaught Member Posts: 92
    Amberion said:

    I think Gate isn't technically a summons, since it's really just a spell that opens a portal to the abyss. The demon isn't compelled to come through, but it does anyway because they all want to come to the prime material plane.

    And destroy everything no less.

  • CoM_SolaufeinCoM_Solaufein Member Posts: 2,603
    Fighter/mage.
    Casts Timestop. Sticks sword in fighter/clerics belly.
    Game over, man, game over!

  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018

    Fighter/mage.
    Casts Timestop. Sticks sword in fighter/clerics belly.
    Game over, man, game over!

    Good idea man. Lets put her in charge.

  • MornmagorMornmagor Member Posts: 1,160
    With all these spell triggers, spell sequesters and chain contingencies going around, things aren't looking too good for the fighter/cleric in BG -.-

    Unless we're talking no preparation at all, and no items. Then it could go either way.

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,198
    There is no way a F/C would ever win against a F/M. They can't stock up on enough dispels to outmatch the number of protections a F/M can put up, and as soon as Time Stop goes out it's over. Even if the first TS doesn't kill, it's easy to load up on dispels and debuffs and chain into a second TS (or Wish) to finish the job.

  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    Mornmagor said:

    With all these spell triggers, spell sequesters and chain contingencies going around, things aren't looking too good for the fighter/cleric in BG -.-

    Unless we're talking no preparation at all, and no items. Then it could go either way.

    So (a) might as well say that neither can memorize spells in advance. My wizard wakes up in the morning and casts stone skin and any contingencies he needs for the day, regardless of what he is doing that day. At some point you have to say 'how would a reasonable character of that class be set up today'. and (b) Time Stop is the ultimate leveler. As soon as it goes off, it makes no difference what the F/M has prepared in advance. They still win.

    So it only comes down to if the Mage can get off Miss-direction/invisibility or otherwise untargetable in some manner. Then nothing stops the time stop and the end of the F/C.

    Mornmagor
  • MornmagorMornmagor Member Posts: 1,160
    Yeah, that's it, you use a pre-cast trigger or whatever that allows you to not get hit for a second, as long as time stop takes to cast.

    Then, it's over.

    Without a trigger, or stoneskin pre-cast etc, F/M will still probably win, but at least the other has a chance. But obviously, everything will be cast, as we prepare the spells anyway, and it only makes sense to compare the builds at the strongest.

    I do think that indeed, a F/M is almost invincible at high levels, and if prepared properly, unkillable. One Time Stop and everyone on screen is no more.

  • BattlehamsterBattlehamster Member Posts: 298

    Fighter/Mage easily. Time Stop - Misdirection - Any combination of kill spells they want because the Cleric won't have any way to stop the mage from casting. The Fighter/Cleric is standing around casting True Seeing and going "What hit me?"

    Okay...so now that we've come to the conclusion that Time Stop and Misdirection is the universal fighter/mage tactic...I'm going to bring in the universal Time Stop - Misdirection counter...

    SUMMON DEVA - Goodbye Invis. Hello Lv. 10 warrior in the face. While your dealing with the Deva, I'm going to be over here healing my wounds. Because I have sanctuary. Have fun casting that true sight though - I'll be more than willing to fight you once I get heal off. Also, if you get to pre-buff a contingency - my F/C gets to pre-buff death ward. So the death spells go out the window too.

    riyahhassett
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,198
    How exactly does a Deva counter Time Stop? The only way for a F/C to survive TS is by having a boatload of defensive buffs active - in which case the mage simply unloads a battery of dispels, runs away, and starts casting the next TS immediately once the first one ends. Where does the Deva fit in there?

  • DreadnaughtDreadnaught Member Posts: 92
    When it comes to the most powerful class in Baldur's Gate it looks like the Fighter/mage will always win. But if you had to fight your own Fighter/mage in a battle what kind of other character would you use?

  • lamaroslamaros Member Posts: 139
    edited October 2013
    Blade.

    Because you can't target something with defensive spin up, and it can cast anything a mage can from scrolls, and it will be a higher level for scaling spells.

    chickenhed
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,198
    @Iamaros: pretty sure that you can still attack a spinning Blade, and since the damage you do comes from attacks and not spells, not being targetable is quite irrelevant; as is the AC bonus, since under TS you make all hit rolls automatically.

    Also, while the Blade can definitely use scrolls, I'm pretty sure that scrolls are unaffected by casting speed modifiers, meaning the F/M will always cast spells faster = get Time Stop off first. They also have a larger number of spells, meaning they win the dispel war. I really don't see how a Blade could stand up to a F/M.

    SpaceInvader
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,611
    We've had three or four of these threads now. I think I agree with @SionIV that mage>everything else in a one-on-one arena, under almost any conditions.

    This is because the game system was not designed for pvp. It's a roleplaying system designed for teamwork. What really happens in practice is that large adventuring groups and even small armies see somebody waving their arms and chanting and swirling little colored lights around, and the leader says "Everybody concentrate everything you've got on that guy in the robes over there, NOW!"

    It's not necessarily a good thing to be the most powerful piece on the chess board, since you get lots of attention from a lot of other pieces, and it's not the good kind of attention. In a realistic combat situation, the "all-powerful" mages are the first to die.

    BattlehamsterAristilliusDreadnaught
  • BattlehamsterBattlehamster Member Posts: 298
    edited October 2013
    TLDR version at the bottom.

    Long version:
    A few things - If you go off of Xp level (which imo is more accurate) you would pit

    Lv. 24 Cleric vs. Lv. 20 Mage assuming both dual class at lv. 9

    (Ignore @ response - this is what happens when you leave the internet for a week, you forget who you have spoken to already)

    I thought deva's operated outside of time stop but I could be wrong, regardless...

    Hold person/Silence/Confusion/mental domination/miscast magic may find time stop disagreeable. I only need to disable you for a round to get a cure ____ spell off. I think you vastly underestimate just how potent a cleric can be in filling the anti-magic role. Inquisitors are one thing because they are one trick ponies but clerics have an entire deck to play from.

    Dispel magic you say? Contingency you say?
    I rebuke with shield of the archons + Sanctuary - I can now block 12 levels of spells and your chain contingency becomes mostly useless unless you combine your chain with just buffs which I too can dispel at the end of your TS. And since sanctuary has a 1 CT, I can re-fire it at any time if its dispelled (even if you fire MM) buying myself the only round I need to start unleashing status effect which will seriously ruin the F/M's day. Combined with the first Sanctuary the F/M pretty much can't touch the F/C (If one spell can't fire, you lose the whole chain, sanctuary makes the F/C untargetable thus disrupting the chain) during time stop unless he's willing to burn most of his high level spells to destroy Archon, even then at best the F/M can negate my protections which put the two on even footing at the conclusion of a time stop and that's only if the mage dumps two 6th or higher level spells to blow out the shield. If I walk into a room with an active archon shield I've used only one spell whereas you just dumped an entire contingency to no effect. After the time stop, assuming it can even get off without being interrupted /held /silenced /miscast'd /dominated/confused/) all a priest would have to do is get off a miscast magic or a silence and your F/M would be in serious trouble. Unless your prepared to dump all of your spells into countering counters, magic would be largely ineffective against an anti-magic/buff spec'd priest.

    If the mage gets to prep a sequencer, the priest gets to prep a buff or two otherwise its like asking who would win if the mage was prepared and the cleric wasn't. A combatant caught off guard by a prepared opponent will lose every time regardless of class differences.

    When all is said and done a cleric has a lot of ways to negate the F/M from using ANY magic and making time stop pretty much useless. At the end of the day its more than likely going to come down to a melee fight and who can buff better in which case cleric have far better combat buffs than mages do - Especially if the cleric saves a 3rd sanctuary to buff after the mage unloads all the dispel magics and true sights.

    There are a lot of good buffs a cleric could time to go off within 10 rounds. That's assuming of course the cleric opts for buffs instead of simply holding you while he reduces you to 1 hp with harm...Which assumes you didn't simply get vaporized with a finger of death since the mage has an abysmal save vs. death at 8 only thanks to the fighter dual-class. And if both clear the other out of spells, well... the F/C has 28 hp over the F/M.

    A F/M could win against a F/C...but he would have to have his spells timed perfectly and have some pretty insane luck with his saves. One status effect and the cleric would unleash hell, or the heavens. Or both if he's neutral. Somewhere during this whole conflict though a Deva is going to show up to aid the cleric - That should be fun.


    TLDR Version:
    Deva = Additional 10/7/7ish F/C/M in terms of abilities and H/D to distract F/M
    Time stop < Shield of the Archons + Sanctuary
    Mage < Finger of death/miscast magic/silence
    Clerics lol at dispel magic + High saving throws vs. death meaning death ward isn't REALLY needed

    If mage is of opposite alignment of priest - Holy word (or unholy word) = CT of 1+ No save + 50% spell failure = GG

    Post edited by Battlehamster on
    riyahhassettDreadnaughtBelgarathMTHReadingRambo
  • ryuken87ryuken87 Member Posts: 563
    @Battlehamster

    What's a cleric to do against a mage with PfMW, Stoneskin, Mirror Image, Improved Invisibility, Spell Immunities: Abjuration and Divination? Assuming the cleric is prebuffed with Sanctuary, the F/M must twiddle his thumbs until it is broken but once it is, the cleric is as good as dead.

  • 10thLich10thLich Member Posts: 99
    @Battlehamster / ryuken87
    Sanctuary only prevents direct targeting, a mage has more than enough AOE damage spells to circumvent that (Skull Trap, Horrid Wilting to name the most popular).

  • ryuken87ryuken87 Member Posts: 563
    Truedat. I would say however that in this hypothetical scenario, the mage shouldn't be able to see the cleric under Sanctuary since they would be enemies (he could of course nuke everything were the arena small enough).

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