@ryuken87: Sanctuary doesn't make you invisible. Even enemy clerics using Sanctuary are perfectly visible at all times.
@Battlehamster: Your line of reasoning is flawed. Assuming the pre-buffs you mentioned, the mage can simply choose contingencies/triggers accordingly to be the perfect counter. Shield of the Archons or Sanctuary do nothing against, say, Horrid Wilting. Assuming no pre-buffs or contingencies, I think you'll easily see how a Time Stop ruins your day. You're both limited to 1 spell per round, so if the Cleric goes into Sanctuary, the mage gets off a Time Stop and can then simply carpet the area with AoE spells (aided by Improved Alacrity if high enough level, though it's probably not even needed).
And if you really do end up in a situation where the cleric is buffed beyond belief, simply spend the Time Stop chaining dispels of all kinds, then when it ends proceed to cast a second TS or Wish->Time Stop.
Clerics have a lot of tools at their disposal, but sadly their offensive capabilities are severely limited. They can buff themselves, but they have very few offensive spells, and only one dispel (Dispel Magic) which is unreliable. They can't really spend time buffing their melee combat against a mage, they can't remove the mages protections, and all their own protections can be dispelled easily by the impressive array mages have at their disposal.
Unless conditions are deliberately biased, I really don't see how a cleric would ever win this.
First off, the clerics strategy would involve not allowing all of those to get fired off in time - and attritioning out the important spells, and disrupting your ability to cast anything past your initial time stop and contingencies. Or better yet, simply wait a mage out. A mage could contingency those spells, but here is the timing/effects on all the spells.
Using sanctuary alone I can just wait out PfMW and Improved Invis (Invis being the biggest problem) leaving just the stoneskin and mirror image.
These are all really nice and powerful protections. Slight problem though, you have no protections in place for the following spells.
-Finger of Death - Mages have a bad comparative death save even w/ the fighter dual class. You have a 50/50 chance of being killed outright otherwise your going to take 2d8 + 24 points of damage.
-Poison: Again, taking advantage of the poor save vs. death ability which will result in spells being interrupted as well as dealing damage and negating stoneskin/mirror image. If the mage fails this save, they are as good as dead. 8d8 for 6 rounds? Ouch. Minimum damage is going to be 48 out of a maximum of 110 hp.
-Holy Word / unholy word - This is totally circumstantial on alignment but if a priest can use this your mage is in for a bad time since there is NO save against it.
The three aforementioned spells really don't care about any of the protections you listed - two of which can potentially kill you outright despite stoneskin.
-Domination or similar effects (not likely though because of good saves, but possible)
-Silence (Unless you use vocalize which lasts 5 rounds)
Keep in mind that dispel magic is only going to be marginally effective - It only has a 50% chance of dispelling the sanctuary. Meaning you will be relying on at most 2 true sights against up to 5-6 sanctuaries, one of which will statistically fail. Sanctuary is really the only useful spell a lv. 1 cleric is going to take with him to fight a mage aside from command word die which, you can't avoid. Once the spell immunities wear off you are going to hit with a dispel magic which has the same chance of working. The only difference is, a cleric can do it longer having access to more spell slots than a mage. The priest in question would have a total of 55 spell slots available whereas the mage would only have 32. Because a priest has more spells he has to do is wait for the mage to run out of ammo. And because a mage has to spell 2 spells to counter one priest spell - he simply won't have the arcane firepower to kill a cleric. Time Stop will result in a TON of damage no doubt...but sanctuary + some cure/heal spells will do more than enough to negate whatever damage is dished out in that time. Even if you dispel the sanctuary, the priest can still cast the heal while the mage is casting dispel/true sight/ whatever.
I'm not trying to say that F/C's are 100% more powerful than F/M's I'm only trying to dispel this illusion that F/M are "unbeatable" in one on one combat. At the end of the day it comes down to who makes better decisions in their response casting, who gets luckier on their saves, who has equipment to deal with the right types of scenarios and who can maximize their spells to their maximum effect.
I see just as many scenarios where a F/C will beat a F/M as I see scenarios where a F/M will beat a F/C is all I'm trying to say.
Can you explain please what to do against area spells? It is my understanding that Sanctuary does nothing to stop those. How do you "wait out" a mage bombarding you with Horrid Wiltings? A maximum (20+) level Horrid Wilting deals 70 damage on average; how are you going to survive that?
Also keep in mind that "waiting out" works both ways. Even if Sanctuary stopped AoE spells, how would you ever win? A cleric doesn't exactly present as a major threat, so you can't pop out of Sancturary and just smack the mage into the ground. What are you going to do, play the waiting game for two hours until your Sanctuaries run out?
@Battlehamster I was assuming both would come into the fight pre-buffed. If you would like to lay down some specific rules about what degree of pre-buffing / contingencies are allowed, which equipment is allowed, the nature of the arena they fight in, how far away they start, etc. then please do and I'll attempt to explain how the mage will win easily.
With the combination of the spells I mentioned, you can't use spells which target the mage (Finger of Death, Poison, etc.) and I would assume any mage of that level wears the Amulet of Power making any silencing spells useless.
You can't out-wait anything bar PfMW with Sanctuary since Sanctuary lasts 10 rounds only. With a casting time of 4 (I think) or 3 with the Amulet of Power the cleric stands only a slim chance of recasting it once it's down.
Time Stop will result in a TON of damage no doubt...but sanctuary + some cure/heal spells will do more than enough to negate whatever damage is dished out in that time.
Are you suggesting that if a mage gets off a Timestop on a cleric that doesn't already have Sanctuary up that the cleric can recover afterwards? Because the F/M can deal damage in that time to kill the F/C many times over.
The only cause for concern you've given me is Holy Word. It's dangerous since it has a low casting time, doesn't need to target and doesn't allow a save. As you admit it's a bit random whether it works or not depending on alignment. Follwing a Holy Word the cleric isn't getting another spell off because the F/M is whacking him over the head while the deafened F/M still has a 50% chance of getting off a Stoneskin / PfMW.
I think we can safely assume that any mage would be using Amulet of Power, which gives passive Vocalize. There isn't really any amulet that can hope to compete.
Assuming the pre-buffs you mentioned, the mage can simply choose contingencies/triggers accordingly to be the perfect counter...
Unless conditions are deliberately biased, I really don't see how a cleric would ever win this.
You mean assuming the mage knows exactly what spells the cleric is going to bring with him to the battle ISN'T deliberately biased? Or giving him contingencies and giving the priest no buffs at all isn't biased? Well fine, lets assume the priest has ONLY sanctuary.
You forget, timestop requires a fair amount of time to cast. Sanctuary requires no time. I can cast sanctuary and then still have enough time to simply move somewhere else which extends outside the area of where I was at which point you have to blind luck guess my position. How do you plan to nail me with an AoE spell when you don't even know what area I am in? You could cast true sight certainly, but once the first time stop ends no matter WHAT spells (including improved alacrity) you cast I can simply sanctuary again and move to another location. Even without the wait, it takes you a full round to cast time stop which is all I need to position myself to avoid whatever nasties you can throw at me. So long as I can dodge your timestop god hand (in an arena large enough for you to cast AoE spells without inadvertently killing yourself apparently, meaning I have a lot of space to randomize my location) and survive your two rounds of insta-casing, easily done with this amazing spell called "Command word: Die" incapacitates a creature for 1 round with no save - highly useful. (Even with the theorized save vs. spell on this spell there is a 40% chance it incaps a lv. 20 mage in which case you have lost a lv. 1 time stop to a measely lv. 1 spell. Despite that, it still sounds like a better chance than your 25% chance of blindfiring an AoE spell during a time stop.
I simply have to keep myself alive with almost twice as many spells as you do - I think I can manage.
With a wider array of spells and more of them a cleric can be flexible and prepared for any spell sent his way. A mage on the other hand - outside of the time stop shenanigans which don't guarantee a kill (I've fought mages before and know the spell is devastating, but even so they are by no means a guaranteed kill on everything even when a party gets bombed by the book its possible to survive with the right precautions in place also keep in mind that people have gone through and beaten the game solo - so there is clearly a way to survive time stop.)
You're right that a cleric has few offensive tools at their disposal. But they have a TON of defensive ones. With all that defensive capacity, a Cleric only has to survive long enough to push the fight into melee. Once there a F/C will crush a F/M.
With your proposed strategy, all the eggs are being put into the time stop basket. If that basket drops -you end up with broken egg everywhere.
You mean assuming the mage knows exactly what spells the cleric is going to bring with him to the battle ISN'T deliberately biased? Or giving him contingencies and giving the priest no buffs at all isn't biased? Well fine, lets assume the priest has ONLY sanctuary.
I'm not talking about knowing what spells the cleric has, but simply knowing that you will, in fact, be facing a cleric and not some other class. Same goes for the cleric, of course. Or does neither know at all what they are going to be facing?
You forget, timestop requires a fair amount of time to cast. Sanctuary requires no time.
Sanctuary is not instant, it has casting time 4; Time Stop has 9. Robe of Vecna improves speed by 4, Amulet of Power by 2. The TS will be cast very quickly.
I can cast sanctuary and then still have enough time to simply move somewhere else which extends outside the area of where I was at which point you have to blind luck guess my position. How do you plan to nail me with an AoE spell when you don't even know what area I am in? You could cast true sight certainly, but once the first time stop ends no matter WHAT spells (including improved alacrity) you cast I can simply sanctuary again and move to another location. Even without the wait, it takes you a full round to cast time stop which is all I need to position myself to avoid whatever nasties you can throw at me.
I have never seen enemy clerics go invisible under Sanctuary. Why would I need True Sight? Also, as mentioned before, Time Stop takes far from a whole round to cast with the right equipment. And since movement speeds are equal, just a rough trajectory is enough to make finding the cleric trivial. Heck, you need to wait a few seconds anyway for the next spell, quite enough to reposition properly.
So long as I can dodge your timestop god hand (in an arena large enough for you to cast AoE spells without inadvertently killing yourself apparently, meaning I have a lot of space to randomize my location) and survive your two rounds of insta-casing, easily done with this amazing spell called "Command word: Die" incapacitates a creature for 1 round with no save - highly useful.
I've never seen that spell, "Command Word: Die". Are you sure we're talking about the same game here? Also, Horrid Wilting deals no damage to friendly units, it can never kill the mage.
A mage on the other hand - outside of the time stop shenanigans which don't guarantee a kill (I've fought mages before and know the spell is devastating, but even so they are by no means a guaranteed kill on everything even when a party gets bombed by the book its possible to survive with the right precautions in place also keep in mind that people have gone through and beaten the game solo - so there is clearly a way to survive time stop.)
That's because enemy damage output is nowhere near that of players. A F/M will melee you to death three times over, their damage output is ridiculous. See the F/M vs. Inq thread for the math behind it, even with max HP rolls and Armor of Faith + Defender of Easthaven it's virtually impossible to survive two rounds of melee during TS. The only way to survive, pretty much, is being in Sanctuary. And as I asked before, how exactly do you *win* with that strategy? I get that you can stall it for an hour if you want to, but that's not exactly winning, is it.
@Iamaros: pretty sure that you can still attack a spinning Blade, and since the damage you do comes from attacks and not spells, not being targetable is quite irrelevant; as is the AC bonus, since under TS you make all hit rolls automatically.
Also, while the Blade can definitely use scrolls, I'm pretty sure that scrolls are unaffected by casting speed modifiers, meaning the F/M will always cast spells faster = get Time Stop off first. They also have a larger number of spells, meaning they win the dispel war. I really don't see how a Blade could stand up to a F/M.
Yes it's unlikely a blade could win. However defensive spin is pretty much the only trick anyone might have over a mage, so that's why I mentioned it.
@Lord_Tansheron You assume that the mage has items which reduce casting time by 6, effectively making them able to cast Time Stop before the cleric has pulled off their lvl 1 spell, Sanctuary. I hope you understand that the result of that fight would depend more on the items rather than the selection of spells and general strategy, which, in my opinion, strays from the point of the original discussion.
However, it would be intresting to know if there is any item a cleric can use that even comes near the overpowered Robe of Vecna in terms of sheer effectiveness. I pretty much doubt it.
@KolonKu: Unfortunately you can't just discount equipment, because it's a very real and very impactful part of the game. Heck, you could completely throw away fighters if you did it, as they are completely dependent on their gear.
As for the casting time, you'd assume the Cleric is also using Amulet of Power, equalizing at least part of the casting speed bonuses. As for RoV it's probably *the* most singularly powerful piece of equipment in the game, particularly for these discussions. Perhaps the only item that comes close in terms of individual power is Carsomyr, but that obviously doesn't apply here.
I find Clerics in general underpowered in BG. Their supportive nature makes a lot of their value and effectiveness contingent on having a party; 1v1 they simply lack the tools to pack enough of a punch. Mages are pretty much the other extreme: they are an Army of One, and their relative power arguably *increases* if they're alone (as Time Stop doesn't scale with party size). Not fair for these "duel" scenarios to be sure, but that just proves what I keep saying all the time:
This game was not designed around PvP battles. They will never be fair. Stop trying to make them work.
The best you can hope for is an intellectual exercise that gives you more insight into class mechanics, but only for the purpose of PvE play, and a fairly minor insight at that. People seem to be raving mad about them for some odd reason, but no matter what kind of convoluted line of reasoning you try, there is no way around the gross, inherent imbalances of a game that was never designed for such a purpose.
@Lord_Tansheron You assume that the mage has items which reduce casting time by 6, effectively making them able to cast Time Stop before the cleric has pulled off their lvl 1 spell, Sanctuary. I hope you understand that the result of that fight would depend more on the items rather than the selection of spells and general strategy, which, in my opinion, strays from the point of the original discussion.
However, it would be intresting to know if there is any item a cleric can use that even comes near the overpowered Robe of Vecna in terms of sheer effectiveness. I pretty much doubt it.
Even if the Mage is naked it will beat every other class. This is a stupid discussion.
@Lord_Tansheron You assume that the mage has items which reduce casting time by 6, effectively making them able to cast Time Stop before the cleric has pulled off their lvl 1 spell, Sanctuary. I hope you understand that the result of that fight would depend more on the items rather than the selection of spells and general strategy, which, in my opinion, strays from the point of the original discussion.
However, it would be intresting to know if there is any item a cleric can use that even comes near the overpowered Robe of Vecna in terms of sheer effectiveness. I pretty much doubt it.
Even if the Mage is naked it will beat every other class. This is a stupid discussion.
If he was naked he wouldn't be a mage...but a wild mage . And there unpredictable.
Wouldn't the very cheesy cloak of mirroring work vs any AE damage the mage cared to throw out? Or in fact pretty much any spell damage? In which case it would be down to sanctuary vs time stop.
If the F/M can dispel the sanctuary under time stop then the F/C is pretty much dead. But with equal experience the F/C will be a bit higher level than the F/M so it's not straightforward. And the F/C can have more sanctuaries memorised than the F/M has dispels.
The F/C has reasonable buffs, can dispel the F/M more easily than the other way around and, via sanctuary, can start the fight whenever he chooses. He can wait till the F/M's key defenses drop (such as PfMW/Mantles because they have a short duration) and start the fight at the appropriate time.
I think the F/M's only tactic would be to wait for the F/C to cast a spell (other than sanctuary), then cast timestop. But successfully casting timestop while under attack isn't going to be easy.
@karnor00: Afaik the Cloak of Mirroring only deflects direct damage, not AoE.
Regarding dispels: yes the F/C can dispel slightly more easily, but they also don't have nearly enough dispels to match the F/M's arsenal of protection spells, unless you count on *every* dispel hitting (and even then it's iffy).
Keep in mind that a F/C will not be at max APR either. That means that when it comes to heads-up bashing, a F/M's damage output will be significantly higher. The F/C can't really waste time buffing, either - as soon as the F/M sees you cast DuHM or Righteous Magic (very obvious animations/long cast times) they can sneak in a Time Stop. After all, there is little reason for them to be casting pro-actively, since they win a direct confrontation.
Literally the *only* thing the F/C can do is Sanctuary; but as I asked earlier, it's yet to be demonstrated to me how this is not just a "don't lose" scenario instead of "I win". Hiding in a bubble is all well and good, but sooner or later the F/C will have to come out. And as soon as they start using an ability/casting a spell that isn't Sanctuary, they'll be hit with a Time Stop - and if they don't cast such a spell, they lose the confrontation due to the F/M's better APR (not to mention damage/THAC0 assuming they are Kensai vs. the F/C's Berserker).
@karnor00: Afaik the Cloak of Mirroring only deflects direct damage, not AoE.
Regarding dispels: yes the F/C can dispel slightly more easily, but they also don't have nearly enough dispels to match the F/M's arsenal of protection spells, unless you count on *every* dispel hitting (and even then it's iffy).
Keep in mind that a F/C will not be at max APR either. That means that when it comes to heads-up bashing, a F/M's damage output will be significantly higher. The F/C can't really waste time buffing, either - as soon as the F/M sees you cast DuHM or Righteous Magic (very obvious animations/long cast times) they can sneak in a Time Stop. After all, there is little reason for them to be casting pro-actively, since they win a direct confrontation.
Literally the *only* thing the F/C can do is Sanctuary; but as I asked earlier, it's yet to be demonstrated to me how this is not just a "don't lose" scenario instead of "I win". Hiding in a bubble is all well and good, but sooner or later the F/C will have to come out. And as soon as they start using an ability/casting a spell that isn't Sanctuary, they'll be hit with a Time Stop - and if they don't cast such a spell, they lose the confrontation due to the F/M's better APR (not to mention damage/THAC0 assuming they are Kensai vs. the F/C's Berserker).
Tansheron, it sounds like time stop makes the F/M nearly impenatrible. What is your best idea of stopping the time stop? It also sounds like your a dedicated player and very knowledgable about the F/M's. You can include any item or class in your own little scenario but what would you do against a F/M with time stop?
I've been messing around a little and I've found out that the Rod of Reversal can target invisible creatures. This can remove Spell Immunity would break the Improved Invisibility, SI:D, SI:Ab combo. This still leaves several problems for the cleric however:
- Assumes the mage has broken the 'initial phase' of Improved Invisibility and can actually be seen by the priest. - The mage is still invisible. If True Seeing is already running this shouldn't be an issue. - The mage will still have combat protections (e.g. Stoneskin) - Using the rod breaks Sanctuary. This leaves it vulnerable to interuption (see below) and gives the mage the perfect opportunity to begin casting Timestop. - Unlike most wands you must actually cast it like a spell leaving the F/C vulnerable to interuption.
In short it's a useful option for the priest to have, but there's no way the priest is going to get off a Ruby Ray and get through the mage's combat protections before the mage can interupt him or get off a Timestop.
What is your best idea of stopping the time stop? It also sounds like your a dedicated player and very knowledgable about the F/M's. You can include any item or class in your own little scenario but what would you do against a F/M with time stop?
There is no reliable strategy I know of, for any class, that cannot be countered by a F/M. Since there exists no Time Stop immunity for players unless you mod it, TS breaks the fight wide open.
Even pure mages won't beat a F/M, for similar reasons to the F/C: the F/M doesn't cast proactively, they just hit you. If the mage casts a protection spell, that means they've spent their spell for the round and the F/M can get off a TS (good luck interrupting that with attacks as a pure mage). If the mage doesn't cast a protection spell, they get eaten.
The only way I see this turning out differently is if you allow pre-buffs or contingencies, then it's fairly random; probably whoever gets TS off first, wins. Also depends a lot on the amount of meta-knowledge you allow, namely whether they know which class they are going to be facing.
@bbear: Check the F/M vs. Inquisitor thread. TL;DR: they do not in fact have a chance.
Here's something I haven't seen brought up in these threads. In PvP, there's no pausing. That means, casters get their three quick spell buttons, and then, any further casting is going to involve clicking the cast spell icon, selecting the spell, and then clicking the target (if it's a targeted spell). All that while a fighter is rolling to hit, multiple times per round.
I think that fact means the fighter, cleric, or thief actually has a chance against the mage. Since the game wasn't designed for PvP, neither are the controls. You can't map a spell/ability "rotation" to the number keys of your keyboard like you can in a true PvP game.
BTW, wouldn't it be possible for two people to just start a multiplayer game and actually test all these theories by attacking each other?
Here's something I haven't seen brought up in these threads. In PvP, there's no pausing. That means, casters get their three quick spell buttons, and then, any further casting is going to involve clicking the cast spell icon, selecting the spell, and then clicking the target (if it's a targeted spell). All that while a fighter is rolling to hit, multiple times per round.
I think that fact means the fighter, cleric, or thief actually has a chance against the mage. Since the game wasn't designed for PvP, neither are the controls. You can't map a spell/ability "rotation" to the number keys of your keyboard like you can in a true PvP game.
Actually, BGEE allows you to assign hotkeys to just about any spell or ability (or at least it does in the beta for the next patch; I never investigated that functionality in previous versions). So a Mage can have a key for PfMW, a key for Stoneskin, a key for Time Stop, etc.
BTW, wouldn't it be possible for two people to just start a multiplayer game and actually test all these theories by attacking each other?
It'd depend on the parameters. See, when someone said mage v. cleric (I discount the fighter levels save the HP impact since it seems largely unnecessary if both are almost equal with their raw melee ability) I was thinking a raw class vs. a raw class without insanely powerful combat changing gear since I was thinking DnD in general rather than only BG. In BG2, clerics aren't as powerful simply because they lack the incredible gear all other classes seem to have access too. The priests just standard warrior gear with a few spellcasting bonuses which isn't all that great tbh.
As for time stop, things are being misunderstood, I don't have to counter a time stop. I simply have to come up with a way that I cannot be outright killed in 1d3 rounds - something clerics naturally do very very well with their wide range of prevention spells. I'm not going to stop you from casting a time stop - I'm just going to make it useless. So long as the priest can survive the initial onslaught (which it can) all a priest has to do to get into combat is spend a round casting sanctuary followed by a heal. Suddenly 4 hp becomes 138 again. Shield of the archon and zone of sweet air are two options available to a priest to avoid overkill damage in the beginning. Granted there is some luck in happening to apply a spell that actually counters the right spells, but that luck goes both ways.
And as always - Poision and FoD are two options a priest can unleash upon a mage at anytime to take advantage of subpar save vs. death stats and lets not forget that a priest will have at least twice as many dispel magic spells available, better HP, and far better buffs which last longer than the mage, almost twice as many spells overall. In the worst case, a cleric could do nothing other than fire off a FoD and occasionally win the first round. Obviously its a huge gamble, (particularly if mirror image is up) but its possible - just not very probable unless the cleric walks in to the fight with true sight which still puts the odds against him more than its worth imo. But hey, I've seen a dragon fingered, why not a mage? At least a mage doesn't even have painful scales to get around.
Yeah stoneskin is there, but with the sanctuary/buff combo present I think in a straight up melee a mage wouldn't have a chance. A mage has the initial wave of buffs...but a priest could literally be buffing himself almost unhindered throughout the combat thanks to faster times and has more than enough of the glorious dispel ammo at his disposal. Dispel and sanctuary don't ensure victory, they merely allow a means to it, IF they are used intelligently.
I'm not going to stop you from casting a time stop - I'm just going to make it useless. So long as the priest can survive the initial onslaught (which it can) all a priest has to do to get into combat is spend a round casting sanctuary followed by a heal. Suddenly 4 hp becomes 138 again. Shield of the archon and zone of sweet air are two options available to a priest to avoid overkill damage in the beginning. Granted there is some luck in happening to apply a spell that actually counters the right spells, but that luck goes both ways.
And as always - Poision and FoD are two options a priest can unleash upon a mage at anytime to take advantage of subpar save vs. death stats and lets not forget that a priest will have at least twice as many dispel magic spells available, better HP, and far better buffs which last longer than the mage, almost twice as many spells overall. In the worst case, a cleric could do nothing other than fire off a FoD and occasionally win the first round. Obviously its a huge gamble, (particularly if mirror image is up) but its possible - just not very probable unless the cleric walks in to the fight with true sight which still puts the odds against him more than its worth imo. But hey, I've seen a dragon fingered, why not a mage? At least a mage doesn't even have painful scales to get around.
Yeah stoneskin is there, but with the sanctuary/buff combo present I think in a straight up melee a mage wouldn't have a chance. A mage has the initial wave of buffs...but a priest could literally be buffing himself almost unhindered throughout the combat thanks to faster times and has more than enough of the glorious dispel ammo at his disposal. Dispel and sanctuary don't ensure victory, they merely allow a means to it, IF they are used intelligently.
@battlehamster 1) As I said before, a f/c has no chance of surviving the damage a f/m can dish out in a Timestop, I don't really want to waste time doing the calculations so let me put it another way - Shapechange: Mindflayer for a maximum of four hits required.
2) i) FoD uses save vs spells. Mages have a good save vs spells. ii) With equipment nobody is likely to fail saves. iii) You can't target an invisible mage. You can't get rid of invisibility with SI:D running. iv) Nothing stopping the f/m from interupting. v) A mage can do the exact same and cast it more quickly.
3) Dispel is pretty useless against SI:Ab.
4) Mages win melee because their protections make them invulnerable. F/Cs can be buffed such they produce huge melee damage, but it would only result in a 'weapon ineffective' message.
5) I'm not getting this whole 'clerics have more spells' thing. Sure they do but it's quality over quantity and a cleric won't live long enough to cast them.
As I said before, if you'd like to set the rules such as what degree of pre-buffs are allowed, which contingencies are allowed, which equipment, etc then I'll be happy to tell you how the f/m wins.
Poison and FoD botg are target spells which means that the mage has to be targetable, not protected by a spell protection like spell trap and does not wear the cheese cloak. I find it unlikely thatt all these will be true. Sanctuary just makes you untargetable and not even invisible. AoE spells would kill you. Even if you also were invisible a planetar ignores that and does straight for you. Shield of the Archons is also useless against AoE spells. Also time stop does NOT have a random duration of d3.
I also doubt that a fully buffed F/C could take a mildly buffed F/M. Improved haste alone is that good for melee dps and str enhancing items are plenty. I also dont see the faster cast times for the priest. Most mage defensive spells are almost instantenous and become so with the Amulet of Power alone. They can also have additional buffing waves with spell triggers.
The assassin could work IF the mage is unprepared. Put them in an arena and the planetar will safe the day again. Give the mage the drop on the assassin and it would alsi end bad for him.
BTW, wouldn't it be possible for two people to just start a multiplayer game and actually test all these theories by attacking each other?
It'd depend on the parameters. See, when someone said mage v. cleric (I discount the fighter levels save the HP impact since it seems largely unnecessary if both are almost equal with their raw melee ability) I was thinking a raw class vs. a raw class without insanely powerful combat changing gear since I was thinking DnD in general rather than only BG. In BG2, clerics aren't as powerful simply because they lack the incredible gear all other classes seem to have access too. The priests just standard warrior gear with a few spellcasting bonuses which isn't all that great tbh.
As for time stop, things are being misunderstood, I don't have to counter a time stop. I simply have to come up with a way that I cannot be outright killed in 1d3 rounds - something clerics naturally do very very well with their wide range of prevention spells. I'm not going to stop you from casting a time stop - I'm just going to make it useless. So long as the priest can survive the initial onslaught (which it can) all a priest has to do to get into combat is spend a round casting sanctuary followed by a heal. Suddenly 4 hp becomes 138 again. Shield of the archon and zone of sweet air are two options available to a priest to avoid overkill damage in the beginning. Granted there is some luck in happening to apply a spell that actually counters the right spells, but that luck goes both ways.
And as always - Poision and FoD are two options a priest can unleash upon a mage at anytime to take advantage of subpar save vs. death stats and lets not forget that a priest will have at least twice as many dispel magic spells available, better HP, and far better buffs which last longer than the mage, almost twice as many spells overall. In the worst case, a cleric could do nothing other than fire off a FoD and occasionally win the first round. Obviously its a huge gamble, (particularly if mirror image is up) but its possible - just not very probable unless the cleric walks in to the fight with true sight which still puts the odds against him more than its worth imo. But hey, I've seen a dragon fingered, why not a mage? At least a mage doesn't even have painful scales to get around.
Yeah stoneskin is there, but with the sanctuary/buff combo present I think in a straight up melee a mage wouldn't have a chance. A mage has the initial wave of buffs...but a priest could literally be buffing himself almost unhindered throughout the combat thanks to faster times and has more than enough of the glorious dispel ammo at his disposal. Dispel and sanctuary don't ensure victory, they merely allow a means to it, IF they are used intelligently.
BattleHamster, do you excel with the Fighter/Cleric class? You have a good ground point in this discussion as well as Lord_Tansheron. I have played the Fighter/mage class all the way through Baldur's Gate 1-2 Bhaal. I also played the game with Inquisitor (honestly this is the best mage killer in the game) and now I am running with the Fighter/Cleric class. Everyone already believes the F/M trump card is the Time stop. What is the cast time for Time stop and is there a spell or weapon/item that a cleric has that could rip through the F/M defenses before the spell is casted. Personally whenever I play as the inquisitor I strike the mage with my dispel magic after there contigency is realesed. Then I come in with my Corsymer+6 then start swinging away his defenses. I tested this with my bro about 3 years ago when we were playing multi-player and the first thing he started casting was time stop when I came in sword swinging after I hit him with dispel. He finished his spell before I could hurt him and the next thing I know is he is chopping my Inquisitor to pieces. In our second trial my dispel did the trick and I was able to hit him down to 1/3 of his hp. He finished his time stop though and then it was my turn to take the hits. He killed me with ring of sequencers that followed. 3rd round was the turn over I summoned my Deva and selected her heal spell on me, and went straight in with dispel magic and then started swinging and no damage was dealt when he finished time stop. The deva finished her spell on me (healing) after my bro's timestop ended and the rest was the reckoning caused by my Inquisoter (and his deva). I crushed the F/M in this round. So yes the hp factor is major point and a healing spell also helped win.
As has been demonstrated in the F/M vs. Inquisitor thread, you don't need any protections against "just swinging with Carsomyr". You win a direct confrontation because you have a higher damage output. Remember this is not a flimsy little mage, this is a F/M, ideally a Kensai->Mage dual class. They will wipe the floor with an Inquisitor.
@Battlehamster: I get the feeling you are a PnP guy, I've seen you mention several things that don't actually work like that in this game; Time Stop is 3 rounds, period, not 1d3. In 3 rounds, a F/M with proper weapons can kill a cleric with maximum damage mitigation (Armor of Faith + Defender of Easthaven) about two times over.
Sanctuary is literally the *only* thing you can do to protect yourself, and then you can count on an array of dispels landing as TS ends, with the F/M standing on top of you to resume the pounding. Please demonstrate how you will get off the next Sanctuary without being interrupted, or have another TS hit while you are fleeing. And, again, please tell me how to actually *win* the fight if you're hiding in Sanctuary. It's not like the mage will stand there in frustration, spending spell after spell until they run out.
And if you stand in Sanctuary, buffing yourself into oblivion - please explain what happens next. So you break it to attack; the mage just shrugs and pops PfMW, or SS, or both. If you dispel, chances are you'll dispel yourself, too (a F/M wouldn't run away, they'd keep pummeling you all the time), in which case we're back to square one. If you try to cast another buff, you get hit by TS; if you Sanctuary again, the whole cycle restarts. Who do you think will run out first? The cleric, having to cast several buffs plus dispels, or the mage, who only has to cast PfMW, or Stoneskin, or Improved Haste (all of which are instant with AoP/RoV), one at a time, to be able to compete. Heck, have you actually *seen* a Kensai/Mage's damage output under Improved Haste? They probably don't even need to put up protections, they just win the direct exchange.
You keep talking about that "wide range of prevention spells", but how many of them are actually relevant here? Armor of Faith. Draw upon Holy Might, to some degree. And then? None of your other buff spells do anything to mitigate the physical barrage that will hit your face the second you step out of Sanctuary. I'm anxious to hear a specific plan.
Protection from Magical Weapons blocks Carsomyr, SI: Ab blocks Dispel Magic.
Are you refering to the Protection against magical weapons (limit +3) or Mantle/ImprovedMantle (4/5)? Corsmyr +6 isn't affected by this as it has a +6 enchantment bonus. I think it is the only +6 weapon in the game.
Comments
@Battlehamster: Your line of reasoning is flawed. Assuming the pre-buffs you mentioned, the mage can simply choose contingencies/triggers accordingly to be the perfect counter. Shield of the Archons or Sanctuary do nothing against, say, Horrid Wilting. Assuming no pre-buffs or contingencies, I think you'll easily see how a Time Stop ruins your day. You're both limited to 1 spell per round, so if the Cleric goes into Sanctuary, the mage gets off a Time Stop and can then simply carpet the area with AoE spells (aided by Improved Alacrity if high enough level, though it's probably not even needed).
And if you really do end up in a situation where the cleric is buffed beyond belief, simply spend the Time Stop chaining dispels of all kinds, then when it ends proceed to cast a second TS or Wish->Time Stop.
Clerics have a lot of tools at their disposal, but sadly their offensive capabilities are severely limited. They can buff themselves, but they have very few offensive spells, and only one dispel (Dispel Magic) which is unreliable. They can't really spend time buffing their melee combat against a mage, they can't remove the mages protections, and all their own protections can be dispelled easily by the impressive array mages have at their disposal.
Unless conditions are deliberately biased, I really don't see how a cleric would ever win this.
First off, the clerics strategy would involve not allowing all of those to get fired off in time - and attritioning out the important spells, and disrupting your ability to cast anything past your initial time stop and contingencies. Or better yet, simply wait a mage out. A mage could contingency those spells, but here is the timing/effects on all the spells.
Spell immunity - 23 rounds
Stoneskin - 10 free hits
PfMW - 4 rounds
Improved Invis - 10 rounds
Mirror Image - Up to 8 free hits
Using sanctuary alone I can just wait out PfMW and Improved Invis (Invis being the biggest problem) leaving just the stoneskin and mirror image.
These are all really nice and powerful protections. Slight problem though, you have no protections in place for the following spells.
-Finger of Death - Mages have a bad comparative death save even w/ the fighter dual class. You have a 50/50 chance of being killed outright otherwise your going to take 2d8 + 24 points of damage.
-Poison: Again, taking advantage of the poor save vs. death ability which will result in spells being interrupted as well as dealing damage and negating stoneskin/mirror image. If the mage fails this save, they are as good as dead. 8d8 for 6 rounds? Ouch. Minimum damage is going to be 48 out of a maximum of 110 hp.
-Holy Word / unholy word - This is totally circumstantial on alignment but if a priest can use this your mage is in for a bad time since there is NO save against it.
The three aforementioned spells really don't care about any of the protections you listed - two of which can potentially kill you outright despite stoneskin.
-Domination or similar effects (not likely though because of good saves, but possible)
-Silence (Unless you use vocalize which lasts 5 rounds)
Keep in mind that dispel magic is only going to be marginally effective - It only has a 50% chance of dispelling the sanctuary. Meaning you will be relying on at most 2 true sights against up to 5-6 sanctuaries, one of which will statistically fail. Sanctuary is really the only useful spell a lv. 1 cleric is going to take with him to fight a mage aside from command word die which, you can't avoid. Once the spell immunities wear off you are going to hit with a dispel magic which has the same chance of working. The only difference is, a cleric can do it longer having access to more spell slots than a mage. The priest in question would have a total of 55 spell slots available whereas the mage would only have 32. Because a priest has more spells he has to do is wait for the mage to run out of ammo. And because a mage has to spell 2 spells to counter one priest spell - he simply won't have the arcane firepower to kill a cleric. Time Stop will result in a TON of damage no doubt...but sanctuary + some cure/heal spells will do more than enough to negate whatever damage is dished out in that time. Even if you dispel the sanctuary, the priest can still cast the heal while the mage is casting dispel/true sight/ whatever.
I'm not trying to say that F/C's are 100% more powerful than F/M's I'm only trying to dispel this illusion that F/M are "unbeatable" in one on one combat. At the end of the day it comes down to who makes better decisions in their response casting, who gets luckier on their saves, who has equipment to deal with the right types of scenarios and who can maximize their spells to their maximum effect.
I see just as many scenarios where a F/C will beat a F/M as I see scenarios where a F/M will beat a F/C is all I'm trying to say.
Also keep in mind that "waiting out" works both ways. Even if Sanctuary stopped AoE spells, how would you ever win? A cleric doesn't exactly present as a major threat, so you can't pop out of Sancturary and just smack the mage into the ground. What are you going to do, play the waiting game for two hours until your Sanctuaries run out?
With the combination of the spells I mentioned, you can't use spells which target the mage (Finger of Death, Poison, etc.) and I would assume any mage of that level wears the Amulet of Power making any silencing spells useless.
You can't out-wait anything bar PfMW with Sanctuary since Sanctuary lasts 10 rounds only. With a casting time of 4 (I think) or 3 with the Amulet of Power the cleric stands only a slim chance of recasting it once it's down. Are you suggesting that if a mage gets off a Timestop on a cleric that doesn't already have Sanctuary up that the cleric can recover afterwards? Because the F/M can deal damage in that time to kill the F/C many times over.
The only cause for concern you've given me is Holy Word. It's dangerous since it has a low casting time, doesn't need to target and doesn't allow a save. As you admit it's a bit random whether it works or not depending on alignment. Follwing a Holy Word the cleric isn't getting another spell off because the F/M is whacking him over the head while the deafened F/M still has a 50% chance of getting off a Stoneskin / PfMW.
You mean assuming the mage knows exactly what spells the cleric is going to bring with him to the battle ISN'T deliberately biased? Or giving him contingencies and giving the priest no buffs at all isn't biased? Well fine, lets assume the priest has ONLY sanctuary.
You forget, timestop requires a fair amount of time to cast. Sanctuary requires no time. I can cast sanctuary and then still have enough time to simply move somewhere else which extends outside the area of where I was at which point you have to blind luck guess my position. How do you plan to nail me with an AoE spell when you don't even know what area I am in? You could cast true sight certainly, but once the first time stop ends no matter WHAT spells (including improved alacrity) you cast I can simply sanctuary again and move to another location. Even without the wait, it takes you a full round to cast time stop which is all I need to position myself to avoid whatever nasties you can throw at me. So long as I can dodge your timestop god hand (in an arena large enough for you to cast AoE spells without inadvertently killing yourself apparently, meaning I have a lot of space to randomize my location) and survive your two rounds of insta-casing, easily done with this amazing spell called "Command word: Die" incapacitates a creature for 1 round with no save - highly useful. (Even with the theorized save vs. spell on this spell there is a 40% chance it incaps a lv. 20 mage in which case you have lost a lv. 1 time stop to a measely lv. 1 spell. Despite that, it still sounds like a better chance than your 25% chance of blindfiring an AoE spell during a time stop.
I simply have to keep myself alive with almost twice as many spells as you do - I think I can manage.
With a wider array of spells and more of them a cleric can be flexible and prepared for any spell sent his way. A mage on the other hand - outside of the time stop shenanigans which don't guarantee a kill (I've fought mages before and know the spell is devastating, but even so they are by no means a guaranteed kill on everything even when a party gets bombed by the book its possible to survive with the right precautions in place also keep in mind that people have gone through and beaten the game solo - so there is clearly a way to survive time stop.)
You're right that a cleric has few offensive tools at their disposal. But they have a TON of defensive ones. With all that defensive capacity, a Cleric only has to survive long enough to push the fight into melee. Once there a F/C will crush a F/M.
With your proposed strategy, all the eggs are being put into the time stop basket. If that basket drops -you end up with broken egg everywhere.
Sanctuary is not instant, it has casting time 4; Time Stop has 9. Robe of Vecna improves speed by 4, Amulet of Power by 2. The TS will be cast very quickly. I have never seen enemy clerics go invisible under Sanctuary. Why would I need True Sight? Also, as mentioned before, Time Stop takes far from a whole round to cast with the right equipment. And since movement speeds are equal, just a rough trajectory is enough to make finding the cleric trivial. Heck, you need to wait a few seconds anyway for the next spell, quite enough to reposition properly. I've never seen that spell, "Command Word: Die". Are you sure we're talking about the same game here? Also, Horrid Wilting deals no damage to friendly units, it can never kill the mage. That's because enemy damage output is nowhere near that of players. A F/M will melee you to death three times over, their damage output is ridiculous. See the F/M vs. Inq thread for the math behind it, even with max HP rolls and Armor of Faith + Defender of Easthaven it's virtually impossible to survive two rounds of melee during TS. The only way to survive, pretty much, is being in Sanctuary. And as I asked before, how exactly do you *win* with that strategy? I get that you can stall it for an hour if you want to, but that's not exactly winning, is it.
Otherwise of course the mage is unstoppable.
You assume that the mage has items which reduce casting time by 6, effectively making them able to cast Time Stop before the cleric has pulled off their lvl 1 spell, Sanctuary. I hope you understand that the result of that fight would depend more on the items rather than the selection of spells and general strategy, which, in my opinion, strays from the point of the original discussion.
However, it would be intresting to know if there is any item a cleric can use that even comes near the overpowered Robe of Vecna in terms of sheer effectiveness. I pretty much doubt it.
As for the casting time, you'd assume the Cleric is also using Amulet of Power, equalizing at least part of the casting speed bonuses. As for RoV it's probably *the* most singularly powerful piece of equipment in the game, particularly for these discussions. Perhaps the only item that comes close in terms of individual power is Carsomyr, but that obviously doesn't apply here.
I find Clerics in general underpowered in BG. Their supportive nature makes a lot of their value and effectiveness contingent on having a party; 1v1 they simply lack the tools to pack enough of a punch. Mages are pretty much the other extreme: they are an Army of One, and their relative power arguably *increases* if they're alone (as Time Stop doesn't scale with party size). Not fair for these "duel" scenarios to be sure, but that just proves what I keep saying all the time:
This game was not designed around PvP battles. They will never be fair. Stop trying to make them work.
The best you can hope for is an intellectual exercise that gives you more insight into class mechanics, but only for the purpose of PvE play, and a fairly minor insight at that. People seem to be raving mad about them for some odd reason, but no matter what kind of convoluted line of reasoning you try, there is no way around the gross, inherent imbalances of a game that was never designed for such a purpose.
If the F/M can dispel the sanctuary under time stop then the F/C is pretty much dead. But with equal experience the F/C will be a bit higher level than the F/M so it's not straightforward. And the F/C can have more sanctuaries memorised than the F/M has dispels.
The F/C has reasonable buffs, can dispel the F/M more easily than the other way around and, via sanctuary, can start the fight whenever he chooses. He can wait till the F/M's key defenses drop (such as PfMW/Mantles because they have a short duration) and start the fight at the appropriate time.
I think the F/M's only tactic would be to wait for the F/C to cast a spell (other than sanctuary), then cast timestop. But successfully casting timestop while under attack isn't going to be easy.
Regarding dispels: yes the F/C can dispel slightly more easily, but they also don't have nearly enough dispels to match the F/M's arsenal of protection spells, unless you count on *every* dispel hitting (and even then it's iffy).
Keep in mind that a F/C will not be at max APR either. That means that when it comes to heads-up bashing, a F/M's damage output will be significantly higher. The F/C can't really waste time buffing, either - as soon as the F/M sees you cast DuHM or Righteous Magic (very obvious animations/long cast times) they can sneak in a Time Stop. After all, there is little reason for them to be casting pro-actively, since they win a direct confrontation.
Literally the *only* thing the F/C can do is Sanctuary; but as I asked earlier, it's yet to be demonstrated to me how this is not just a "don't lose" scenario instead of "I win". Hiding in a bubble is all well and good, but sooner or later the F/C will have to come out. And as soon as they start using an ability/casting a spell that isn't Sanctuary, they'll be hit with a Time Stop - and if they don't cast such a spell, they lose the confrontation due to the F/M's better APR (not to mention damage/THAC0 assuming they are Kensai vs. the F/C's Berserker).
it sounds like time stop makes the F/M nearly impenatrible. What is your best idea of stopping the time stop? It also sounds like your a dedicated player and very knowledgable about the F/M's. You can include any item or class in your own little scenario but what would you do against a F/M with time stop?
- Assumes the mage has broken the 'initial phase' of Improved Invisibility and can actually be seen by the priest.
- The mage is still invisible. If True Seeing is already running this shouldn't be an issue.
- The mage will still have combat protections (e.g. Stoneskin)
- Using the rod breaks Sanctuary. This leaves it vulnerable to interuption (see below) and gives the mage the perfect opportunity to begin casting Timestop.
- Unlike most wands you must actually cast it like a spell leaving the F/C vulnerable to interuption.
In short it's a useful option for the priest to have, but there's no way the priest is going to get off a Ruby Ray and get through the mage's combat protections before the mage can interupt him or get off a Timestop.
Even pure mages won't beat a F/M, for similar reasons to the F/C: the F/M doesn't cast proactively, they just hit you. If the mage casts a protection spell, that means they've spent their spell for the round and the F/M can get off a TS (good luck interrupting that with attacks as a pure mage). If the mage doesn't cast a protection spell, they get eaten.
The only way I see this turning out differently is if you allow pre-buffs or contingencies, then it's fairly random; probably whoever gets TS off first, wins. Also depends a lot on the amount of meta-knowledge you allow, namely whether they know which class they are going to be facing.
@bbear: Check the F/M vs. Inquisitor thread. TL;DR: they do not in fact have a chance.
I think that fact means the fighter, cleric, or thief actually has a chance against the mage. Since the game wasn't designed for PvP, neither are the controls. You can't map a spell/ability "rotation" to the number keys of your keyboard like you can in a true PvP game.
BTW, wouldn't it be possible for two people to just start a multiplayer game and actually test all these theories by attacking each other?
As for time stop, things are being misunderstood, I don't have to counter a time stop. I simply have to come up with a way that I cannot be outright killed in 1d3 rounds - something clerics naturally do very very well with their wide range of prevention spells. I'm not going to stop you from casting a time stop - I'm just going to make it useless. So long as the priest can survive the initial onslaught (which it can) all a priest has to do to get into combat is spend a round casting sanctuary followed by a heal. Suddenly 4 hp becomes 138 again. Shield of the archon and zone of sweet air are two options available to a priest to avoid overkill damage in the beginning. Granted there is some luck in happening to apply a spell that actually counters the right spells, but that luck goes both ways.
And as always - Poision and FoD are two options a priest can unleash upon a mage at anytime to take advantage of subpar save vs. death stats and lets not forget that a priest will have at least twice as many dispel magic spells available, better HP, and far better buffs which last longer than the mage, almost twice as many spells overall. In the worst case, a cleric could do nothing other than fire off a FoD and occasionally win the first round. Obviously its a huge gamble, (particularly if mirror image is up) but its possible - just not very probable unless the cleric walks in to the fight with true sight which still puts the odds against him more than its worth imo. But hey, I've seen a dragon fingered, why not a mage? At least a mage doesn't even have painful scales to get around.
Yeah stoneskin is there, but with the sanctuary/buff combo present I think in a straight up melee a mage wouldn't have a chance. A mage has the initial wave of buffs...but a priest could literally be buffing himself almost unhindered throughout the combat thanks to faster times and has more than enough of the glorious dispel ammo at his disposal. Dispel and sanctuary don't ensure victory, they merely allow a means to it, IF they are used intelligently.
1) As I said before, a f/c has no chance of surviving the damage a f/m can dish out in a Timestop, I don't really want to waste time doing the calculations so let me put it another way - Shapechange: Mindflayer for a maximum of four hits required.
2)
i) FoD uses save vs spells. Mages have a good save vs spells.
ii) With equipment nobody is likely to fail saves.
iii) You can't target an invisible mage. You can't get rid of invisibility with SI:D running.
iv) Nothing stopping the f/m from interupting.
v) A mage can do the exact same and cast it more quickly.
3) Dispel is pretty useless against SI:Ab.
4) Mages win melee because their protections make them invulnerable. F/Cs can be buffed such they produce huge melee damage, but it would only result in a 'weapon ineffective' message.
5) I'm not getting this whole 'clerics have more spells' thing. Sure they do but it's quality over quantity and a cleric won't live long enough to cast them.
As I said before, if you'd like to set the rules such as what degree of pre-buffs are allowed, which contingencies are allowed, which equipment, etc then I'll be happy to tell you how the f/m wins.
I also doubt that a fully buffed F/C could take a mildly buffed F/M. Improved haste alone is that good for melee dps and str enhancing items are plenty. I also dont see the faster cast times for the priest. Most mage defensive spells are almost instantenous and become so with the Amulet of Power alone. They can also have additional buffing waves with spell triggers.
The assassin could work IF the mage is unprepared. Put them in an arena and the planetar will safe the day again. Give the mage the drop on the assassin and it would alsi end bad for him.
do you excel with the Fighter/Cleric class? You have a good ground point in this discussion as well as Lord_Tansheron. I have played the Fighter/mage class all the way through Baldur's Gate 1-2 Bhaal. I also played the game with Inquisitor (honestly this is the best mage killer in the game) and now I am running with the Fighter/Cleric class. Everyone already believes the F/M trump card is the Time stop. What is the cast time for Time stop and is there a spell or weapon/item that a cleric has that could rip through the F/M defenses before the spell is casted. Personally whenever I play as the inquisitor I strike the mage with my dispel magic after there contigency is realesed. Then I come in with my Corsymer+6 then start swinging away his defenses. I tested this with my bro about 3 years ago when we were playing multi-player and the first thing he started casting was time stop when I came in sword swinging after I hit him with dispel. He finished his spell before I could hurt him and the next thing I know is he is chopping my Inquisitor to pieces. In our second trial my dispel did the trick and I was able to hit him down to 1/3 of his hp. He finished his time stop though and then it was my turn to take the hits. He killed me with ring of sequencers that followed. 3rd round was the turn over I summoned my Deva and selected her heal spell on me, and went straight in with dispel magic and then started swinging and no damage was dealt when he finished time stop. The deva finished her spell on me (healing) after my bro's timestop ended and the rest was the reckoning caused by my Inquisoter (and his deva). I crushed the F/M in this round. So yes the hp factor is major point and a healing spell also helped win.
@Battlehamster: I get the feeling you are a PnP guy, I've seen you mention several things that don't actually work like that in this game; Time Stop is 3 rounds, period, not 1d3. In 3 rounds, a F/M with proper weapons can kill a cleric with maximum damage mitigation (Armor of Faith + Defender of Easthaven) about two times over.
Sanctuary is literally the *only* thing you can do to protect yourself, and then you can count on an array of dispels landing as TS ends, with the F/M standing on top of you to resume the pounding. Please demonstrate how you will get off the next Sanctuary without being interrupted, or have another TS hit while you are fleeing. And, again, please tell me how to actually *win* the fight if you're hiding in Sanctuary. It's not like the mage will stand there in frustration, spending spell after spell until they run out.
And if you stand in Sanctuary, buffing yourself into oblivion - please explain what happens next. So you break it to attack; the mage just shrugs and pops PfMW, or SS, or both. If you dispel, chances are you'll dispel yourself, too (a F/M wouldn't run away, they'd keep pummeling you all the time), in which case we're back to square one. If you try to cast another buff, you get hit by TS; if you Sanctuary again, the whole cycle restarts. Who do you think will run out first? The cleric, having to cast several buffs plus dispels, or the mage, who only has to cast PfMW, or Stoneskin, or Improved Haste (all of which are instant with AoP/RoV), one at a time, to be able to compete. Heck, have you actually *seen* a Kensai/Mage's damage output under Improved Haste? They probably don't even need to put up protections, they just win the direct exchange.
You keep talking about that "wide range of prevention spells", but how many of them are actually relevant here? Armor of Faith. Draw upon Holy Might, to some degree. And then? None of your other buff spells do anything to mitigate the physical barrage that will hit your face the second you step out of Sanctuary. I'm anxious to hear a specific plan.