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Fighter/Cleric or Fighter/Mage who would win???



  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,198
    Protection from Magic Weapons protects against *any* enchanted weapon, of *any* enchantment level. At least unmodded.

  • ryuken87ryuken87 Member Posts: 563
    Protection from Magical Weapons is a level 6 spell which does exactly what is says on the tin. It stops any magical weapon regardless of enchantment level while letting normal weapons through. There are other +6 weapons.

  • riyahhassettriyahhassett Member Posts: 59
    If the the wizard is level 20 then the cleric is over level 20. Creatures/NPC/players over level 20 are considered of Demi-god status and immune to the effect of time stop. What else you got?

  • Nic_MercyNic_Mercy Member Posts: 405

    If the the wizard is level 20 then the cleric is over level 20. Creatures/NPC/players over level 20 are considered of Demi-god status and immune to the effect of time stop. What else you got?

    That is absolute nonsense. Achieving high level does not in any way, shape or form, endow a character with divine status or immunities.

    Yes most characters who reach such levels find opportunities to achieve higher states of being but it is not something bestowed just for reaching a high level. There is no official rulebook that I know of that says players who reach level 20+ are automatically endowed with divine powers and immunities.

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,198
    Please keep in mind that this is a BG discussion, not PnP. There are no special rules for such high levels in BG, even though PnP may have them.

  • ReadingRamboReadingRambo Member Posts: 598
    edited December 2013
    If I was the referee I would veto casting time reduction items, I think the fight would be more interesting that way (and more frustrating for the mage).

    I'm rooting for the cleric in this duel, cuz underdog

    Edit: apology for the necro, for some reason this thread was at the top of my page

  • SpaceInvaderSpaceInvader Member Posts: 2,125
    edited December 2013
    Ok, this thread is amazingly long for a battle that would end in less than 1min.
    @Battlehamster I'll refer to you, since you seem the biggest defender of the F/C build.

    Let's start:

    - Fighter/Cleric casts whatever he wants.
    Sanctuary? Fine.

    - Fighter/Mage uses a CC with True Sight/Mass Invisibility/Haste set on Helpless. Since he still has to cast his spell per round he uses Projected Image.

    CC Triggers due to PI and we have an invisible/hasted clone that is casting Time Stop while your F/C is there... Asking himself why he accepted to fight.
    His Sanctuary dispelled by True Sight, both his enemy and his projected image protected by Mass Invisibility (which also gives +4 bunus to saving-throws).
    And right in the second you realize all you can do is run, you are possesed by a pure sense of fear, as the projected image just finished to cast Time Stop, before you could even try your second spell.

    You want me to tell you what a lvl28 mage under TS can do to a character without any protection? :)


    If the the wizard is level 20 then the cleric is over level 20. Creatures/NPC/players over level 20 are considered of Demi-god status and immune to the effect of time stop. What else you got?

    I got Baldur's Gate manual, were it states that what you said is a non-sense, for example xD

  • GamingFreakGamingFreak Member Posts: 639
    Fighter/Mage would. Time Stop + Shape Change to mind flayer and just helplessly munch on the Fighter/Cleric's most likely stupid, yet wise, brain.

  • SpaceInvaderSpaceInvader Member Posts: 2,125
    edited December 2013
    Burn him where he stands I say!

  • PantalionPantalion Member Posts: 2,137
    Whew. The theorycrafting is strong in this thread.

    Personally my money's on the Thief/Mage beating both (even before getting their own level 9 spells), but yeah, even assuming no Time Stop for the Fighter -> Mage, with spells like Project Image, Simulacrum and Mislead (coupled with Spell Immunity - Divination), there's a pretty low chance that the Cleric can even fight the real mage, who's got better combat buffs than the Cleric anyway. And frankly Simulacrum summons a better ally than any HLA could.

  • LarkusLarkus Member Posts: 52
    edited December 2013

    Really, there is no question whether the Fighter/Mage will win, the question is rather what's the minimum level at which the Fighter/Mage (or even a single classed Mage) will win.

    Battle plan for Papa Jansen, level 14 CN gnome illusionist, naked, with an empty spell book.
    Arena: pit in the Copper Coronet. No pre-buffs. No pre-summons.

    Before the battle:
    Cast Limited Wish and wish "to be prepared for anything". Prepare a Chain Contingency with Mislead, Limited Wish, Limited Wish set to: see enemy, cast on self. Prepare a spell sequencer with 3x Remove Magic.
    Unmemorize all spells and undress.
    Tell Surly that you are ready - both you and your opponent are teleported into the arena.
    Both parties turn hostile to each other (this assumes, hypothetically, that you can count as hostile towards other party members in a multiplayer game, for the sake of PvP)

    Battle begins:
    Chain Contingency triggers, Papa Jansen - Misled, two genies appear.
    Speak to the first genie -> game pauses. Choose the dialog path for "I wish for control over time." -> Time stops. Speak to the second genie (Yes, you can initiate dialog with the genie during time stop) Choose the dialog path for "I wish to be everything I desire." Change into mindflayer. Attack.

    If the opponent manages to use a Potion of Invisibility (or similar item) before you manage to speak to the first genie, run to the middle of the arena, use the Spell Sequencer on yourself, then speak to the first genie (or let the genie speak to you).

    Fighter/Cleric - Death. Time resumes.

    Battle ends.

    If you allow the opponent to unpause the game during your dialog with the genie you would have to have to modify your contingencies slightly. It get's more complicated if you allow pre-buffing and/or pre-summoning.

  • SpaceInvaderSpaceInvader Member Posts: 2,125
    @Larkus you can't target the ground with a Spell Sequencer, but you can target yourself, anyway :p

  • LarkusLarkus Member Posts: 52
    edited December 2013
  • BattlehamsterBattlehamster Member Posts: 298

    Wow I haven't posted on this thread in ages lol.

    Ultimately it really comes down to a battle of the F/C vs. Time Stop and/or Sequencer/Contingency. Let's be honest, not so much sequencer, but the combo of those two spells basically breaks the game.

    In any case people seem to continually forget this spell called "Finger of Death". Even if it doesn't outright kill the mage it will disrupt the casting of whatever 9 speed spell the mage is in the process of casting. And moreover, I still haven't seen anyone address the whole Miscast Magic/vocalize threat from the F/C. Time stop is only good if you are able to cast it in the first place.

    At this point, it comes down to a simple matter of reflexes which each class is equally capable of winning.

    It still slants the battle in favor of the mage since the priest only has about a 40% chance of it activating, but the priest CAN win SOMETIMES. I wasn't trying to say a cleric would always win, merely that one could win. Either way - chances are it would end up being a very, very short battle. Unless of course the mage had horrific rolls and the priest somehow survived both the TS and the sequencer/contingency barrage. Then its a simple matter of sanctuary + heal and the mage is suddenly back to square 1.

    One dispel magic later - (from both ends) most of the buffs are down unless the priest had defensive buffs go off from the contingency - in which case the priest likely survived the TS since the rate of spells is significantly slower. Priest at this point simply needs to spam sanctuary until the mage runs out of steam, since a priest would have a crapton of sanctuary when compared to a Mage's dispel magic. Since Sanctuary would go off first in every round a mage would be able to cast a single spell and would then have to dispel Sanctuary # x to target the priest who has likely vacated the area to evade an AoE spell.


    As for the whole "Mindflayer" theory, that's a little bit ridiculous.
    You can't say no pre-buffs and then follow by giving the mage a pre-buff. In my book ANY spell cast before battle to benefit the caster is a pre-buff, so that entire example isn't really valid.

    To be clear I'm not saying a Priest would typically win, or even have a good chance of winning. I'm saying, with a reasonable amount of luck and reflexes he COULD win about 20%-30% of the time. The priest was designed to be a support class anyways, not a "kill" class. Take any party with a cleric vs. any party without a cleric and suddenly you have a vastly different scenario - that's where the cleric shines, not this 1v1 nonsense where mages are SUPPOSED to dominate.

  • ryuken87ryuken87 Member Posts: 563
    - It's explained on the previous page how FoD (and any other spell requiring a target) won't work.
    - If you intend to induce spell failure through Holy Word then i) Any hypothetical PvPer who wants to win is gonna make his characters neutral and ii) I'm 99% certain deafness doesn't affect scroll castings.
    - Dispel magic isn't going to do anything to a properly buffed mage with SI:A, as explained multiple times in this thread.

  • SpaceInvaderSpaceInvader Member Posts: 2,125
    FoD on an invisible target?
    CC triggers before your FoD ;)

  • GoturalGotural Member Posts: 1,229
    Hello everyone, i wanted to post some insights here.

    -First of all, amulet of power reduce cast time by 1 and not 2.
    -Cloak of Mirroring also blocks aoe effects (100% 100% 100% => 300% sure about it (i was happy swimming in my own Incendiary clouds with it)) so it make the owner immune to Skull trap or Abhi dalzim.
    -Robe of Vecna is by far the most overpowered item in the game, an item only added with ToB in a little shop at the start of the game to makes players happy. It shouldn't be used in a fair PvP situation, sorry (but it can be use in a unfair situation).
    -If the F/M has robe of Vecna, the F/C has cloak of mirroring, that's it. And F/M still has the advantage gear-wise.
    -Don't forget that F/M is about level 25 mage, and that F 13 => M is lvl 28. F 13 => C is lvl 38 which means the C will have 99% dispell chance while the M will have 1% dispell chance.
    -Sanctuary is a bit tricky, it is said in the spell description that it makes the caster invisible and in practice, it is true that when you cast it, ennemies don't follow you. But at the same time, ennemies casting Sanctuary aren't invisible.

    Now speaking about gameplay : I, of course, assume both players are wearing boots of speed. Honestly if you don't instantly recognize the casting animation of a time stop and don't run away while being invisible, we're not playing the same game. It's just so easy to avoid a time stop (even more so if you're buffed with haste / improved haste / oil of speed) and aoe spells in general.

    Then i can see you're all praying the PfMW while it is not that good. Just equip your normal weapons and you're good to go. You just lose 5 thaco (still gonna hit 95% of time), 5 dammages (on an average of 30, not that bad) and specials properties (which hurts the most).

    Still, i think this 1v1 is more of a duel of luck (holy/unholy word 50% failure cast for example)

    To my mind, the best character to fight a F/M (one who can wins most of the time) is a Blackguard. If you hit the F/M only one time, he loses instantly due to poison weapon, WHICH BYPASSES STONESKIN. If he uses Absolute immunity, hit him with a +6 weapon, if he uses PfMW use a normal bow. Insta-win. Of course he can buy a few seconds with Mirror Images, but with GWW you're gonna chop it nearly instantly, faster than the casting of Time stop atleast, then it's over. Then the blackguard can of course dispell magic (he has a higher casting level). The blackguard will also have saves of atleast -5 everywhere (Fighter types have really good saves, and all Paladins have a -2 bonus at creation) meaning you can't lose due to bad luck.

    What can a mage do ?

    Spells level 1 : Nothing.
    Level 2 : Mirror image, which relies on luck but get eaten nearly instantly whatever. Invisibility, but it goes off when you start casting or attacking => The blackguard hit you once, he wins.
    Level 3 : Nothing. (The Blackguard has Cloak of Mirroring, too good saves, and haste sucks)
    Level 4 : Improved invisibility, the blackguard could dispell it but he can also just wait for F/M to start casting and hit him during casting with poison weapon.
    Level 5 : Nothing.
    Level 6 : Improved haste. Actually the F/M still wins by far in a pure DPS race, but the blackbuard is going to hit you once, poison you, then run and only hit you to reapply poison.
    Level 7 : Project Image, but the Blackguard can just destroy it/kite it/dispell it.
    Level 8 : Simulacrum, which is quite useless.
    Level 9 : Time stop, will gets interrupt. Absolute immunity, weapon +6 bypasses it. Comet and dragon breath, Cloak of Mirroring makes you immune.

    Actually i think that the fact that poison bypasses stoneskin makes everything. If someone can find a flaw, feel free to tell me, i'll be happy to know.

    Sorry for the long post, and sorry for my bad english :)

  • ryuken87ryuken87 Member Posts: 563
    1) Any item which provides poison immunity (e.g. Ring of Gaxx which everybody would be using) stops the poison working.
    2) Even if poisoned you can still cast through scrolls.

  • GoturalGotural Member Posts: 1,229
    I didn't know about the scrolls not getting interrupted, thanks for letting me know !

    I completly forgot about poison immunity items (even if Ring of Gaxx is a rare, powerful and "unique" item, every F/M can just buy a poison immunity necklace). I feel like a fool !

    Then the only characters who can beat the F/M are some multi or dual thief. At the second the start fight, infinite time stop via trap (easely 100 or more seconds).

  • LarkusLarkus Member Posts: 52

    Indeed. You also can:

    Fire Sequencers
    Load and Fire Contingencies

  • SpaceInvaderSpaceInvader Member Posts: 2,125
    There are so many wrong things in your post I don't even know where to start...

  • LarkusLarkus Member Posts: 52
    edited December 2013

    You can't say no pre-buffs and then follow by giving the mage a pre-buff. In my book ANY spell cast before battle to benefit the caster is a pre-buff, so that entire example isn't really valid.

    Contingencies are not buffs in my book. Contingencies are both permanent (until used or discharged) as well as undispellable, which makes them just as much buffs as carrying around potions created by Alchemy HLA.
    You can't really mean that any spells cast before battle to benefit the caster are pre-buffs, otherwise you would have to consider healing spells to be buffs, too.

    But even if the mage wouldn't prepare Contingencies in advance, Contingencies can be loaded and fired without using up a spell-equivalent action. The only difference to my example would be, that the mage would have to be of high enough level to cast Chain Contingency from memory, and he would have to actually memorize some spells. Then the F/C would be faced with an opponent that can stick Timestop into a Chain Contingency (via Limited Wish). The chances, that the F/C would get off Sanctuary or Finger of Death before time stops are next to nil.

    Insisting on pre-buffs wouldn't be advisable for the F/C. As others have already pointed out, the mage can layer his defensive spells such that the F/C can't affect them, but the F/C can't prevent the mage from affecting his.

    Ultimately it really comes down to a battle of the F/C vs. Time Stop and/or Sequencer/Contingency. Let's be honest, not so much sequencer, but the combo of those two spells basically breaks the game.

    Yes, the game is fairly unbalanced, in some respects. I'd say it was never meant to be balanced with respect to hypothetical PvP scenarios. The big adantage of the F/M is, that he has ways to get more spell equivalent actions per round than the F/C:

    -Greater Alacrity
    -a combination of the above

    The F/C just can't compete.

    A nice combination would be sticking clones into contingencies, for example: Chain Contingency (Mislead, Simulacrum, Mass Invisibility), now the F/C faces two casters, that both still have their spell equivalent actions to spend. The Simulacrum could begin to cast Time Stop from scroll (without being revealed, TS doesn't break invisibility), the F/M could wait and keep his spell equivalent action to counter any countermeasures (without being revealed either, thanks to Mislead).

    The only way I can see for the F/C to win is, if the F/M doesn't know what he's doing.

  • GemHoundGemHound Member Posts: 801
    edited December 2013
    Thing is, if neither are prepared at the start, will the mage have a chance to build a contingency AND fire it off before the Fighter Cleric damages or stuns him with a well placed spell or hit?(they CAN use slings you know.) One hit interrupts a mage's spell, while Clerics keep on casting after getting hit unless they get hit enough.

  • SpaceInvaderSpaceInvader Member Posts: 2,125
    The hypothetical best F/C will never have a chance to win vs the, always hypothetical, best F/M.

    *takes out a pair of black sunglasses*

    Deal with it.

  • kryptixkryptix Member Posts: 741
    Just wondering, if its a small arena, whats to stop the Mage from just Chain Contingency on enemy sighted 3x horrid wilting? That should just be instant death anyway.

    Poison could suck but foebane + 10 hits will heal right back up :)

  • PantalionPantalion Member Posts: 2,137
    kryptix said:

    Just wondering, if its a small arena, whats to stop the Mage from just Chain Contingency on enemy sighted 3x horrid wilting? That should just be instant death anyway.

    Poison could suck but foebane + 10 hits will heal right back up :)

    Cloak of Mirroring, mainly.

  • kryptixkryptix Member Posts: 741
    Ah yeah forgot about that piece of cheese :)

    I wonder if I can wear that and have kangaxx kill himself...

    That said, wouldn't that also work in reverse and redirect the damage from FoD (Its pretty hard to fail a Save vs. Death fully equipped at max level it'd be like 5% critical fail only)...

    The Cleric doesn't have PFmW or Stone Skins though (should have made it a ranger cleric), so one round of imp haste + critical strikes = dead cleric... unless hardiness + defender of easthaven.

  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,302
    edited December 2013
    How it shakes out obviously depends on what level they're both at and what spells they have memorized.

    At least at lower levels, if both cast defensively for the first spell then it would be really interesting to see. Because the priest's best bet is probably to cast Sanctuary and buy time to buff, summon, plus whatever else. The mage can cast a number of spells to elude the opponent, including Invisibility and Improved Invisibility (although without the Cloak of Non-Detection the cleric's eventual True Seeing will render the mage visible to the priest... ? at least I think the cloak works against True Seeing...); and also Dimension Door and Shadow Door.

    But then I think the cleric is probably ultimately more vulnerable.

    On the other hand if the cleric casts Command Word: Die (casting time is 1, which nearly instantaneous), and he mage doesn't save it's over. But by the same token, Sleep for the mage also has a casting time of 1. So it'd be a matter of who saves against the spell if both cast offensively first.

    At higher levels it's quite a bit more complex. If I was the mage I would probably first take evasive action, and then size up the priest's spell choices to figure out what to use. The priest isn't going have that advantage (at least nothing comes to mind right at the moment, kind of in a rush so I can't check all the cleric spells). Sanctuary doesn't make the priest invisible per se; he or she is just protected by their god for the duration of the spell. It will eventually wear off, but it has a casting time of 4--and that's a pretty long window of vulnerability against a high level mage.

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