@DancingBugbear Your attempt at a witty comeback is noted, but even if you ignore @LadyRhian 's post, even a cursory look at that picture makes it plain she's not wearing any armor, nor is she pretending to. It's a dress, and the parts of it that we can see seem quite normal. Now, if you had brought up @LadyRhian 's earlier remarks on "Giraffe Neck Lady"...
Actually, she was a vampire character, not a fantasy roleplaying character, so while I take the point, she was never intended to wear armor in combat. Rhiannon Sian Emyr is a healer from Wales, and from the dark ages (she was born in 1157) to boot.
Point continuing. Lot's of room to put a stake in, or decapitate, or splash holy water on, or whatever you do to vampires. I prefer a mace to the face. Or maybe just nudge them off a ledge, with their scrawny bones. It works for breaking apart old machinery.
@Malicron A lot of the the pictures don't seem to be wearing armor. I don't suppose 8oz of gold on the neck is so normal. For normal, you could consider her comment on "vampire."
Bwahahaha, yeah, she's a member of the "navel" crew alright.
Sailors often were shirtless, or wore tight vests. Or course only men were allowed, so it's really just the way the guy goes. She'll be sure to keep her navel function safe with her evasive outfit. Yar, we have another pile of chum, for we haul in now.
@DancingBugbear Um, original Vampire: The Masquerade universe, so the stake would work, but she doesn't have to retreat to a coffin in daylight to begin with. She is also fairly powerful. She has a high celerity, so she could dodge you pretty much endlessly, or dodge once and yank the stake from your hand at the same time. Holy Water doesn't work unless you have True Faith, and for most people that's as rare as Hen's Teeth. Likewise with decapitation- you'd have to hit her first, and she gets six or seven actions to your one. (Humans pretty much get boned by vampires in the original V:TM universe.)
@DancingBugbear Rhiannon's clothes look practical and comfortable for civilian use. That is not true of the vast majority of "non-armor" clothing shown in this topic, which appear to be reasonable under no circumstances outside a strip club.
@LadyRhian They aren't pictures that need to bring complaints about. They're for different situations. They're have qualities in their own method. @Jalily If unusual clothing is what you have a problem with, you can make a post about that. You can select any garment from any attire catalogue and discuss it. I'll were a veil when I want, and rainbow socks, and a wifebeater.
Here's the only one worth noting. Posted by Mortianna.
@Jalily The dress she is wearing is based on the dresses by Alix Grés (aka Alix Barton), a fashion designer from the 50's and 60's, who based many of her designs on the Greek Chiton/Himation worn in Ancient Greece. They were made of silk jersey, tightly folded in front and back for coverage, but left to a single layer at the sides to show off the contours of the body. The dress Rhiannon wears is much more like the chiton/himation, a single layer of fabric folded around the body horizontally and then secured at the top with clips/pins, and gathered at the waist.
This seems to be a personal post, so it doesn't seem to need mention. Perhaps you could do it in PMs. Maybe a profile of the designer and their process could be described for the other pictures.
@DancingBugbear All the art is from DeviantArt. Go to the site and punch in the artist's DA name (Given), you can read all about them in their own words. That's why I attribute all the art.
Without the description of the implementation of the parts, your just indicating where there's armour, and where you've found that it's like someone who didn't have armor, or where there's some accessory you don't like. If there's an accoutrement you don't like, you could describe that. It would likely go better on an off topic thread called "Fashions In My Approval."
In case anyone is wondering, here are some of my favorite DeviantArt Artists, along with their pages: Nathie: http://nathie.deviantart.com A German artist, most of his art is copyrighted, so don't reuse it without his permission. MelissaFindley: American Artist who did the picture I use as a profile picture here: http://melissafindley.deviantart.com Lintufrikki: A Finnish artist, her name means "Birdfreak" in Finnish. She's a bit more cartoony/less realistic, but I like her style: http://lintufriikki.deviantart.com Cyzra: American Artist with a thing for Drow and Elves. I love her art. http://cyzra.deviantart.com DavidDeb: Canadian Artist who generally does TV show/movie art. Professional. http://daviddeb.deviantart.com Louisa Gallie: http://louisagallie.deviantart.com British artist Quickreaver: http://quickreaver.deviantart.com American Artist capable of a wide variety of art styles.
I am so confused by this current "argument." LadyRhian's avatar comes from a portrait of a woman standing around wearing a dress. I think we can all agree that it is unremarkable to see a woman standing around in a dress.
On the other hand, the pictures she is mocking, for the most part, show women in FIGHTING scenes wearing dental floss and wall clings. If I am charging into a horde of rampaging ogres, I would not want the dubious extra mobility that comes from stripping down to my underwear and putting on a spiky pauldron. I would want goddammed f***ing body armor.
Seriously? what is with the prude squad attacking this thread. Yes we get it, you don't approve of fantasy pics where women wear scantily clad armor. why don't you make a thread with pics you approve of and leave the people who don't mind or even appreciate the pics here which LadyRhian took the time and effort to post here to enjoy them in peace?
@Corvino If a theoretical combat was to ensue, if he was some sort of kung-fu artist, it might be more to his style. Then if he was to ditch and run, heavy armor might slow him down. Most people like shoes, though (neglecting some woman Olympic medallists).
I am so confused by this current "argument." LadyRhian's avatar comes from a portrait of a woman standing around wearing a dress. I think we can all agree that it is unremarkable to see a woman standing around in a dress.
On the other hand, the pictures she is mocking, for the most part, show women in FIGHTING scenes wearing dental floss and wall clings. If I am charging into a horde of rampaging ogres, I would not want the dubious extra mobility that comes from stripping down to my underwear and putting on a spiky pauldron. I would want goddammed f***ing body armor.
She doesn't look very health. Note she's supposed to be a "vampire." Few of them are in fighting scenes. Fem of them even seem like they plan on subsequent combat. Try on a heavy load, and hard, ridged clothing for a while. A lot of people wouldn't like to wear that often. If you want to see people in armor, there's probably lots of pictures of those. You could make a post of "People In Heavy Armor."
Alas if there were more of them (descriptions). It doesn't often say why they're a 'bad' display. Just that they aren't completely covered in armor, or they don't have enough fabric, or the color of their decor isn't right.
Well, this is the sort of discussion I feel like the thread deserves
First off, like I said before, I'm not denying anyone's right to dislike a picture or an artist, for whatever reason they choose. I also certainly am very much aware of the pressure, both directly and indirectly that western society presents on women that attractiveness is their most important quality. The pressure is certainly there for men too, but to nowhere near the same degree.
My two main points are: 1. Most of the art posted so far in this thread seems to come from peoples deviant art accounts, not from mainstream projects. Criticising their pictures is fine, we all have an opinion, but criticising their subject, or applying our own values to them, and saying, whether they are man or women, that what they have done is somehow offensive or negative, or what some people in this thread seem to be saying, that they *shouldn't be doing it* is wrong.
1. At least some of the artists on DeviantArt *are* professional artists- they work for companies like Wizards of the Coast and Blizzard- or other companies (like CCG makers). Please don't assume that just because someone has a DA account, it means they are strictly a fan artist. Some of the art in this thread comes from those same artists. Being a professional artist does not exempt your art from criticism- but I did mention at the start that the skill of the artist was not a reason to diss the art- it's the choices in outfit/ armor. The only one where I deviated from that was "Giraffe Neck Lady".
I strongly dislike the trend in this thread of posting a collection of pictures from a diverse field of artists without any context and then collectively sneering at them.
It is deeply intellectually dishonest. You could equally well select an assortment of fantasy art of people in chains to imply that the artists are supporters of slavery.
We can't interpret these pictures in this context in any other way than you decide to show them. For all we know these artists could be parodying the very art styles you are using their picture to decry. Or else select 1 from a range of 100 pictures by the same artist which best illustrates your purposes. Never mind if they have drawn 99 pictures of relatively sensibly dressed women, you can force your own interpretation onto their work.
some of the more recent pictures that people are complaining about most of them make sense, the archer for example....a stealth based character wouldn't wear much because armor clinks and heavy leather creaks so it kinda makes sense, plus leaves could get caught on trousers and bring rustle noises with you, very bad for sneaky characters, the last two (the single pauldron guy and the unprotected abdomen woman) the single pauldron is obviously a mage, going by D&D standards they need to wear little armour for the arm flailing and "hamyna hamyna...ing" so it makes sense, and if that one pauldron protects his domniant arm where the spell is going to come from (some cast from mid section some from their arm dont know why) then it makes sense to protect it as much as you can without ruining your flexibility.
same with the unprotected abdomen woman, a spell sword, if you wave one arm your chest moves, if its in a steel shell with limited movements your spell is still going to fail, the open front armor gives both moderate protection to the chest (more than most we've seen) and the flexibility needed to cast spells still....well thats what i thought anyway, if the artist intended for that or just intended for boobs *shrugs* ill never know
I think that the intentions of the artists of the pictures being lampooned here are very clear. Their goal is eroticism.
There is a fetish, I think, that associates fighting with sex. The closest example I can think of that I actually can understand, even if I am not personally turned on by it, is Mixed Martial Arts fighting. Those guys wear next to nothing, and really beat up on each other. In the process, one normally pins down the other and begins to beat the sides of his head, for at least part of the time. Many of these wrestling pins are identical to gay sex positions. I've never met an MMA fighter, but I imagine that most of the participants are quite straight, and would probably react with quite a bit of anger to having it pointed out that their pins resemble gay sex positions.
But I do know some gay guys who love to watch MMA events, and they find it quite a turn-on, apparently.
There is a similar straight fantasy for a certain kind of guy, of being dominated by some strong woman who looks like Wonder Woman or Xena. Actually, I guess some lesbians are also into that.
All of the images of both men and women that I see in this thread immediately make me think of S&M sexual fantasies. I actually find such fantasies to be dark, and a total turn-off, but I do intellectually understand the phenomenon. The point of these pictures was sexual fantasy, not realistic high epic fantasy. Some people like to mix up the two, though, and that's what these pics do. But the sexual eroticism is paramount over the mythical epic high fantasy tropes.
To each their own, and I don't have any problems with some people liking that, as long as everything is consensual between adults.
As for lampooning the pictures, I think they are absolutely fair game as fodder for parody and satire.
There is also the more serious issue of what seeing pictures like this can do to a young girl's (or guys, but it's way worse for girls) self-image, and it is a fair ethical question to ask whether this kind of fantasy art is misogynistic, and possibly psychologically unhealthy. It is arguably one or two steps removed from straight up pornography.
@belgarathmth I agree with you. Realistic depictions of women in armor for fantasy are rare, and in the past, it was usually the woman in a fur bikini grasping the thigh of Conan as he saved her from some horrific monster. When women were depicted as fighters, it was the "chainmail bikini" style of Red Sonja that predominated in art rather than more realistic armor. Or even a "fur bikini" (check out Grace Jones' character in "Conan the Destroyer", Zula, for a real-life example of this trope). Now, we are getting more and more realistic depictions of women in chainmail or armor that isn't made to sexualize the character being portrayed, but to show her as awesome and kickass in her own right. That's the kind of depiction I prefer. I have no problem with "sexy" pictures of characters in armor, male or female. But when the expectations are that these characters are going into combat wearing butt floss and boob cups (or the equivalent) and expect to make it out without some kind of fatal/serious/life-threatening wound, that's when I go "That's erfing ridiculous and insults my intelligence!" Not to mention the intelligence of the character being portrayed in the picture. Do they *really* think they are going to be okay with just a bit of metal over their external genitalia/ladybits?
Not only are the armor and costumes ridiculous, the way they stay on defies all sorts of physics and reality, as I rightly point out in many cases. Metal is not spandex, does not cling like spandex, and if you cut holes in it, not only does it protect you less, you can't even make it stay on in the way it is depicted. Most of the character in these pictures are one wardrobe malfunction away from stabby, spiky, killy death or being completely exposed on the battlefield. And like Minsc says, "That's not right!" It throws me out of the character somehow being awesome and kickass if I feel that any minute, they are going to end up naked and exposed in a pile of useless armor scraps lying at their feet.
Some people blame fantasy fiction for these tropes. But even Robert Howard, the progenitor of Conan, had female characters who were pretty kickass awesome. Bêlit of the Red Brotherhood was one of Conan's lovers and she is a completely kickass female corsair. In separate stories, Howard wrote of Dark Agnes de Chastillion, set in 16th Century France, who kills her bridegroom, runs away from an arranged marriage and trains to be a swordswoman. Red Sonja is based on another Robert Howard character, Red Sonya of Rogatino. And there are plenty of other kickass female characters in fantasy, like Jirel of Joiry by C.L. Moore, who is a Lord of a Castle and travels to Hell to take revenge on the man who beseiged and conquered her castle. But when she realizes his soul is now trapped in Hell forever, she goes back and frees it. This is the version I first saw and still own.
There is also Tiana of Reme/Tiana Highrider (as she gains this epithet later in the series). She's a more sexualized female character written by Andrew Offut and Charles Lyon, in that a great deal of mention is given to her body and "perfect breasts", which she uses to distract and trap men who try and fight her. But that doesn't stop her from being kickass (at one point she swordfights and kills a vampire nun whilst in the nude), but she's generally fighting monsters and tends to get captured (rather than slain outright). She also settles down with a wizard at the end of the series, and like Bêlit, is a corsair and pirate captain, having inherited the job from her father/foster father.
And I also read of Tomoe Gozen, based on a real female Samurai, but fictionalized by Jessica Amanda Salmonsen. She fought in the Genpei war in 12th Century Japan (the real one) and history has this to say about her: "Tomoe was especially beautiful, with white skin, long hair, and charming features. She was also a remarkably strong archer, and as a swordswoman she was a warrior worth a thousand, ready to confront a demon or a god, mounted or on foot. She handled unbroken horses with superb skill; she rode unscathed down perilous descents. Whenever a battle was imminent, Yoshinaka sent her out as his first captain, equipped with strong armor, an oversized sword, and a mighty bow; and she performed more deeds of valor than any of his other warriors."
As a Samurai, she would have worn Lamellar armor like other Samurai. I doubt she went into battle in butt floss and metal bra cups. And we know female samurai armor existed: http://www.bonhams.com/press_release/11545/
@belgarathmth Unarmed combat contests are traditionally done nude, or close to it. It's a implementation of athleticism, and practise and display of martial capacity. If someone wants to wear colorful clothing, or lack there of, it's their choice. If these pictures aren't to the moderators' taste, they can be taken down. This is a fashion discussion. Discontent with their styles can be posted in a fashion preference section.
This is posted on a forum were necromancy plays a large role.
@DancingBugbear But these characters aren't going into UNARMED combat, but ARMED combat. Realistically, they'd die pretty quickly.
There goes the monk and kensai and bard class. "Fatal/serious/life-threatening wound"s tend to be common in the setting. Travellers didn't tend to wear much armor, and a skilled swordsman was generally better without armor. The fictional setting allows for customs not practicable in actual periods. A stiletto or poniard or footman's flail, or mace or bodkin would have similar effect on someone without armor, as with it. These aren't tended to be depictions of someone on the front line of an infantry charge.
Comments
Your attempt at a witty comeback is noted, but even if you ignore @LadyRhian 's post, even a cursory look at that picture makes it plain she's not wearing any armor, nor is she pretending to. It's a dress, and the parts of it that we can see seem quite normal.
Now, if you had brought up @LadyRhian 's earlier remarks on "Giraffe Neck Lady"...
@Malicron A lot of the the pictures don't seem to be wearing armor. I don't suppose 8oz of gold on the neck is so normal. For normal, you could consider her comment on "vampire." Sailors often were shirtless, or wore tight vests. Or course only men were allowed, so it's really just the way the guy goes. She'll be sure to keep her navel function safe with her evasive outfit.
Yar, we have another pile of chum, for we haul in now.
@Jalily If unusual clothing is what you have a problem with, you can make a post about that. You can select any garment from any attire catalogue and discuss it. I'll were a veil when I want, and rainbow socks, and a wifebeater.
Here's the only one worth noting. Posted by Mortianna.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:AurigaDelfi.jpg
http://melissafindley.deviantart.com/art/Character-Portrait-Rhiannon-256088987
Nathie: http://nathie.deviantart.com A German artist, most of his art is copyrighted, so don't reuse it without his permission.
MelissaFindley: American Artist who did the picture I use as a profile picture here: http://melissafindley.deviantart.com
Lintufrikki: A Finnish artist, her name means "Birdfreak" in Finnish. She's a bit more cartoony/less realistic, but I like her style: http://lintufriikki.deviantart.com
Cyzra: American Artist with a thing for Drow and Elves. I love her art. http://cyzra.deviantart.com
DavidDeb: Canadian Artist who generally does TV show/movie art. Professional. http://daviddeb.deviantart.com
Louisa Gallie: http://louisagallie.deviantart.com British artist
Quickreaver: http://quickreaver.deviantart.com American Artist capable of a wide variety of art styles.
On the other hand, the pictures she is mocking, for the most part, show women in FIGHTING scenes wearing dental floss and wall clings. If I am charging into a horde of rampaging ogres, I would not want the dubious extra mobility that comes from stripping down to my underwear and putting on a spiky pauldron. I would want goddammed f***ing body armor.
Police officer: Sir, please put your t-shirt and shorts back on.
Jogger: But officer, this increases my mobility. I just couldn't move freely in those sensible, loose garments.
Police officer: *into radio* Send some backup, we've got a comedian here.
Mobility =/= underpants.
@Corvino If a theoretical combat was to ensue, if he was some sort of kung-fu artist, it might be more to his style. Then if he was to ditch and run, heavy armor might slow him down. Most people like shoes, though (neglecting some woman Olympic medallists). She doesn't look very health. Note she's supposed to be a "vampire." Few of them are in fighting scenes. Fem of them even seem like they plan on subsequent combat. Try on a heavy load, and hard, ridged clothing for a while. A lot of people wouldn't like to wear that often. If you want to see people in armor, there's probably lots of pictures of those. You could make a post of "People In Heavy Armor."
Alas if there were more of them (descriptions). It doesn't often say why they're a 'bad' display. Just that they aren't completely covered in armor, or they don't have enough fabric, or the color of their decor isn't right.
I strongly dislike the trend in this thread of posting a collection of pictures from a diverse field of artists without any context and then collectively sneering at them.
It is deeply intellectually dishonest. You could equally well select an assortment of fantasy art of people in chains to imply that the artists are supporters of slavery.
We can't interpret these pictures in this context in any other way than you decide to show them. For all we know these artists could be parodying the very art styles you are using their picture to decry. Or else select 1 from a range of 100 pictures by the same artist which best illustrates your purposes. Never mind if they have drawn 99 pictures of relatively sensibly dressed women, you can force your own interpretation onto their work.
same with the unprotected abdomen woman, a spell sword, if you wave one arm your chest moves, if its in a steel shell with limited movements your spell is still going to fail, the open front armor gives both moderate protection to the chest (more than most we've seen) and the flexibility needed to cast spells still....well thats what i thought anyway, if the artist intended for that or just intended for boobs *shrugs* ill never know
There is a fetish, I think, that associates fighting with sex. The closest example I can think of that I actually can understand, even if I am not personally turned on by it, is Mixed Martial Arts fighting. Those guys wear next to nothing, and really beat up on each other. In the process, one normally pins down the other and begins to beat the sides of his head, for at least part of the time. Many of these wrestling pins are identical to gay sex positions. I've never met an MMA fighter, but I imagine that most of the participants are quite straight, and would probably react with quite a bit of anger to having it pointed out that their pins resemble gay sex positions.
But I do know some gay guys who love to watch MMA events, and they find it quite a turn-on, apparently.
There is a similar straight fantasy for a certain kind of guy, of being dominated by some strong woman who looks like Wonder Woman or Xena. Actually, I guess some lesbians are also into that.
All of the images of both men and women that I see in this thread immediately make me think of S&M sexual fantasies. I actually find such fantasies to be dark, and a total turn-off, but I do intellectually understand the phenomenon. The point of these pictures was sexual fantasy, not realistic high epic fantasy. Some people like to mix up the two, though, and that's what these pics do. But the sexual eroticism is paramount over the mythical epic high fantasy tropes.
To each their own, and I don't have any problems with some people liking that, as long as everything is consensual between adults.
As for lampooning the pictures, I think they are absolutely fair game as fodder for parody and satire.
There is also the more serious issue of what seeing pictures like this can do to a young girl's (or guys, but it's way worse for girls) self-image, and it is a fair ethical question to ask whether this kind of fantasy art is misogynistic, and possibly psychologically unhealthy. It is arguably one or two steps removed from straight up pornography.
Not only are the armor and costumes ridiculous, the way they stay on defies all sorts of physics and reality, as I rightly point out in many cases. Metal is not spandex, does not cling like spandex, and if you cut holes in it, not only does it protect you less, you can't even make it stay on in the way it is depicted. Most of the character in these pictures are one wardrobe malfunction away from stabby, spiky, killy death or being completely exposed on the battlefield. And like Minsc says, "That's not right!" It throws me out of the character somehow being awesome and kickass if I feel that any minute, they are going to end up naked and exposed in a pile of useless armor scraps lying at their feet.
Some people blame fantasy fiction for these tropes. But even Robert Howard, the progenitor of Conan, had female characters who were pretty kickass awesome. Bêlit of the Red Brotherhood was one of Conan's lovers and she is a completely kickass female corsair. In separate stories, Howard wrote of Dark Agnes de Chastillion, set in 16th Century France, who kills her bridegroom, runs away from an arranged marriage and trains to be a swordswoman. Red Sonja is based on another Robert Howard character, Red Sonya of Rogatino. And there are plenty of other kickass female characters in fantasy, like Jirel of Joiry by C.L. Moore, who is a Lord of a Castle and travels to Hell to take revenge on the man who beseiged and conquered her castle. But when she realizes his soul is now trapped in Hell forever, she goes back and frees it.
There is also Tiana of Reme/Tiana Highrider (as she gains this epithet later in the series). She's a more sexualized female character written by Andrew Offut and Charles Lyon, in that a great deal of mention is given to her body and "perfect breasts", which she uses to distract and trap men who try and fight her. But that doesn't stop her from being kickass (at one point she swordfights and kills a vampire nun whilst in the nude), but she's generally fighting monsters and tends to get captured (rather than slain outright). She also settles down with a wizard at the end of the series, and like Bêlit, is a corsair and pirate captain, having inherited the job from her father/foster father.
And I also read of Tomoe Gozen, based on a real female Samurai, but fictionalized by Jessica Amanda Salmonsen. She fought in the Genpei war in 12th Century Japan (the real one) and history has this to say about her: "Tomoe was especially beautiful, with white skin, long hair, and charming features. She was also a remarkably strong archer, and as a swordswoman she was a warrior worth a thousand, ready to confront a demon or a god, mounted or on foot. She handled unbroken horses with superb skill; she rode unscathed down perilous descents. Whenever a battle was imminent, Yoshinaka sent her out as his first captain, equipped with strong armor, an oversized sword, and a mighty bow; and she performed more deeds of valor than any of his other warriors."
As a Samurai, she would have worn Lamellar armor like other Samurai. I doubt she went into battle in butt floss and metal bra cups. And we know female samurai armor existed: http://www.bonhams.com/press_release/11545/
This is posted on a forum were necromancy plays a large role.