I am a little confused about all the rage this DRM issue is creating. The Devs used time to improve a fantastic game. It is in every fans best interest to ensure that the Devs can continue thier work and have some exchange for it. As far as I understood, you DL the game, install it, and then authenticate the install ONCE. After that you can play offline forever if you want? You can also install the game the same way on any other PC you have.
Whats the big deal? If you are a fan of this game, then I am sure you can suffer an authenication check one time. Who doesn´t have internet on thier gaming PC? Practically everything you do in gaming requires it. I guess I just don´t see the big issue here.
I'll agree with Niz. DRM is wrong plain and simple. I typically refuse to buy any games with online DRM. Between GOG and the Humble bundles I have plenty of games to play(and they make plenty of money.) But I will admit that my willpower is weak regarding Baldur's Gate. I've argued in a few threads that the devs deserve every bit of the $20 that they are charging. But I deserve to OWN the game I'm buying.
And piracy is a valid option. I'll probably run the DRM free pirate version even after paying. Isn't it crazy that the people who don't pay will get a better product than the ones who do pay? If Niz really won't buy a DRM product than his piracy will NOT be a lost sale. He wouldn't have bought it anyway. And I did pay, so what difference does it make if I download a pirated copy?
And as far as the online validation server is concerned, are the original Baldur's Gate servers still active for patches? I don't mean fan hosted sites where I can't be sure of the content. Are official resources still online? I plan on using this software for a very long time and want to OWN what I pay for whether I get a disc or not.
And piracy is a valid option. I'll probably run the DRM free pirate version even after paying. Isn't it crazy that the people who don't pay will get a better product than the ones who do pay? If Niz really won't buy a DRM product than his piracy will NOT be a lost sale. He wouldn't have bought it anyway. And I did pay, so what difference does it make if I download a pirated copy?
@Treyolen If someone actually bought the game and then used the pirated version to get rid of the DRM (though why you'd insist on downloading the pirated version instead of activating the official version is kind of mind bogling) at least you bought the game.
But don't try to justify someone not buying the game because of DRM and then pirating it. Its not a lost sale, but the pirate IS unfairly playing the game without paying for the work of the developers.
@Tanthalas I'm sure neither one of us will convince the other one. But I'll refine my points anyway out of boredom. You seem to believe that the activation servers will be online forever or that the same people that insisted on DRM will allow a patch to remove it to be released. I don't believe either of those will occur. I change PCs every few years and always try to be on the newest OS. The inevitable pirate version will allow me to install this game for the rest of my life regardless of any outside server. This offers a very real value above the official release. You may not appreciate that value, but that does not diminish it. As long as the official servers exist I'm sure I'll use them.
And no one needs to justify piracy. It looks to me like Niz was willing to be a paying customer and the terms of service pushed him away. This is a bad thing. This kind of project doesn't need DRM IMHO. Most PC customers will be old school fans who are willing to pay for the possibility of future releases. I think the iOS and Android base would be the bigger risk of non-payment. The walled garden stores will probably generate most of the sales anyway.
You may want to consider getting off your high horse and helping to defend consumer rights. DRM is a losing battle. It doesn't stop real pirates and it hurts real customers.
I'm sorry, but people on a high horse are those that use DRM as an excuse for piracy and then try to enoble the act.
And don't give me the "help defend consumer rights" speech. When the DRM that is planned for BGEE is already practically non-existent, complaining about it starts to sound ridiculous.
Pirates don't use high horses, they use boats. Everybody knows this
If the DRM is that non-existent than why implement it at all? It is a method of control. They should not require any control over MY purchase. Plenty of very successful distributions have moved away from DRM. I think Beamdog should be one of them. I would normally vote with my wallet and just buy from GOG. But I'm torn on this issue because I LOVE the underlying concept of what these guys are doing and want to vote with my wallet to support them. But the DRM issue is real and should at the least be thoroughly discussed. This is a lot more important than "release on Steam or else" threads.
@Treyolen ...But don't try to justify someone not buying the game because of DRM and then pirating it. Its not a lost sale, but the pirate IS unfairly playing the game without paying for the work of the developers.
Just a comment from the latter part. I believe it is both. Yes, the pirate is unfairly playing the game, but at the same time it IS a lost sale. In business terms, this is an "opportunity cost." If the person decides not to buy the game because of DRM and decides to obtain a pirated copy, it is, by definition, a lost sale, because had the DRM not been there, the sale would have been made. The only way it isn't a lost sale is if the person was going to pirate it anyway and not bother paying for it from the beginning.
We might be tempted to say that people complain about DRM as an excuse for piracy, but just from some of the products I've seen published over the years, piracy exists whether there is DRM or not. Even games like Diablo 3, which requires a connection to even play the game, is, I believe, cracked (I don't know how they do it, but they do it). So, in the end, the point of arguing and making excuses to pirate is moot. Some people may use it as an excuse, but I believe, for the most part, many people are legitimately fed up with DRM in general and plenty of businesses are losing customers because of the absurdity of the DRM system.
Just looking up some of the reviews and comments for games like the Witcher 2, which can be obtained from gog.com DRM free, a lot of people praise this practice specifically, and a lot of people invest money on companies that can provide a hassle free product. Some digital distributors enjoy advertising their products as "DRM free" because it sells.
A next to non-existent DRM system is great. Or at least better than the rest, but the fact that it still exists still remains a problem for a lot of people. At the end of the day, I think the developer should ask themselves this: what does it really accomplish? Does the system really keep pirates in check? Without a clear answer, the existence of even a near non-existent DRM should be put to question.
Personally I prefer standalone updates and not online auto-updating. Because with standalones updates, I can store them along the installation files, and so if I want to install an updated game again, I can do immediately (and possibly offline) without the need to go though the automated download process.
Example: With Nevewinter Nights, I rather install my original disc + the last standalone patch, than just letting the original game download and install the whole updates once more. ( I've installed NWN many times since its release xD )
Another advantage of standalone updates, is that you can choose anytime which specific game version you wanna play, while auto-updates only allow you to update to the current last version.
Example: When I was playing Diablo 2 with mods, sometimes Blizzard patches was breaking mod compatibility, or was modifying skills in a way we did not like. With standalone patches we were able to play with the version we wanted anytime, even on new installation.
@Avenger_teambg: Not everybody has a steady and fast connection. Some people don't even have a connection at all. Such players obviously normally buy retail boxes. But in the case of digital sale only available online for example such as on gog.com, such person will go download the game at cyber Coffee or at a friend's home, or get a friend to send the files on CD through snail mail. I have personally done that for friends that needed to get big updates or other files from Internet but could not technically do so themselves, or not in a practical time. For these people, DRM for a product when no alternative is available such as a retail box, is very annoying. Of course from a Game Publisher standpoint, I guess it's a minority so they don't care.
I don't like DRM for other reasons as well, but I'm not going into that discussion again because it's always the same things said again and again
Seriously, when you log into GOG, you type your password and DL your games. This is almost the exact same thing. You DL and install the game and authenticate ONCE! Same as you would authenticate yourself to a website.. Beamdog: Did you pay for the game? Yes, well good, let me check.. Ok you did, here you go. Any website: Are you who you say you are? Yes, well let me check.. Ok you are who you say you are. You may enter..
Anyway, it´s clear that there are some people that want Zero DRM. I don´t really care if there is or isn´t DRM. I want the game to be the best it can be and the Devs get what they deserve for thier work.
@Daktari: That's not the same thing at all. There is no DRM on GOG games. You never authenticate ever to install or play the game.
You only have to login uniquely on the website, like you would do on any online shop even if it' s just to buy shoes. Whatever you do after with your purchased product is up to you, not to the online shop. In the case of GOG games. You will never have to authenticate to install or use the game, even on a new or offline machine.
From what I understood BGEE will require to authenticate each time you install the game. Some are not happy with that, some don't care but you can't say truthfully that it is the same.
It is not same thing but we are not speaking new and casual game . It's already old . And not everyone play this . Only hardcore fans playing . This is only a problem for the fans .
What I meant was that when you log into GOG to DL your games, you need to type in your user name and password. With BG:EE you need to do the same with the added level of a simple authentication check to see if you paid for the game. How can that be seen as a huge issue? I´m just trying to understand how some people directly refuse to play a game they love because a fast check to see if you stole it..
I'm pretty effin tired of you "responding" to me when all you do is gainsay and then introduce your own irrelevant spin on the post. How about you pop some Ritilin and skip my posts from now on?
Are the people that don't have a connection to authenticate the game living in the middle of nowhere? Even if people don't want to pay for high speed broadband internet, you can get low speed dsl for about $10 a month through companies like Net 10.
Christ.. Im surrounded by ignorant people sometimes. If you like to support Beamdog and the things they are doing, then buy the freaking game. If you dont mind a little protection of somekind , then buy the freaking game. If you like to see a futere EE game or and BG III , then buy the freaking game.
On the other hand if you dont like either of the above, YOURE IN THE WRONG PLACE !!!
Though I do think they're going a bit overboard with their reactions to the DRM that will be present in BGEE, its still good that they express their concerns just as long as they do it in a responsible and respectful manner.
And just in case I need to point it out, saying "if the game has DRM I'm going to pirate it" isn't a responsible thing to do and it certainly doesn't respect the people working on BGEE.
I know @Tanthalas. But their conserns on the DRM, they actually is saying they dont trust Beamdog. So i dont mind if they dont buy. I allready bought 2 of them. :P
Who appointed you prosecutor, are you some kind of BG EE Forum D.A. Tanthalas? Passing judgement like that, speaking ex cathedras, ok I'm a nice guy but please be more careful with your wording.
Like I said I already own (meaning that I PAID MONEY) all 4 Interplay BG series boxes plus I bought IWD1 & 2, and PLANESCAPE TORMENT, like I said I'm a sucker for these games, absolutely love them, played full BGT over 20 times, almost tried every single fan made mod, I'm one of those guys that helped keep BG alive over the years, so that now the Beamdog guys do this great project. What I was trying to say is that I made a plea to them, so my ALL TIME FAVORITE GAME gets better not go down the drain along with most modern game sewage...
My issues with what you posted were mostly directed at you saying that you were going to pirate the game because of the DRM.
People won't buy BGEE because it has DRM? I'm ok with that, its their money and I have no right to tell them what they should or shouldn't buy. But DRM is no excuse for piracy. You having bought the previous versions of BG doesn't entitle you to pirating BGEE just because it has DRM.
Yes I will pirate the game if it has any sort of drm stupidity, plain and simple, but that is not the point. The BG community would still need me and all the fans whether they own the game legit or not, helps keep the potential of the project alive.
Even big time companies like microsoft tolerate pirates, if things get more strict with windows think of all those people that would flee to *nix OS.
I for one most certainly will, and yes my windows are just a non-legit pirate CHEAP copy, I admit it I never in my life own Windows in an official capacity...
Why dont you buy the game, and than "crack" it ( or pirate it to your own convenience ) - you dont see much logic in it dont you? why bother paying 20$ while you can get the game for free, which means that DRM is an excuse to pirate the game.
you are basicly spit into the well you are drinking from. " I'm a sucker for these games, absolutely love them - But skrew those who make them"
Unlike Microsoft, Beamdog cant suffer piracy - because beamdog is a small company and for them every sale counts, unlike Microsoft which will get their billions one way or another.
the BG community does not need people like you, the more people are like you, the more diminishes the chance to see any future project such as BG2:EE, PST:EE, BG3.
@nizhidrhamannit You kind of lost all credibility with that last post. You went from being a concerned customer to cheapskate thief. This is not my way of thinking at all. I do pay the appropriate costs for all of my software. I even consider donations to free software developers that provide me with great products.
Every one going on about how light the DRM is on this game is ignoring the fact that if the server goes down the installations are not possible. The server will go down. The only questions are when and if a patch will be released. It is inappropriate for me to bear the risk in this arrangement. My purpose is not to promote piracy, but to try and push for a better product. A DRM free product is clearly better for the customer. And I believe it is better for the developer as well.
Comments
Whats the big deal? If you are a fan of this game, then I am sure you can suffer an authenication check one time. Who doesn´t have internet on thier gaming PC? Practically everything you do in gaming requires it. I guess I just don´t see the big issue here.
*rolls eyes*
But that leaves more BGEE for me. I think.
And piracy is a valid option. I'll probably run the DRM free pirate version even after paying. Isn't it crazy that the people who don't pay will get a better product than the ones who do pay? If Niz really won't buy a DRM product than his piracy will NOT be a lost sale. He wouldn't have bought it anyway. And I did pay, so what difference does it make if I download a pirated copy?
And as far as the online validation server is concerned, are the original Baldur's Gate servers still active for patches? I don't mean fan hosted sites where I can't be sure of the content. Are official resources still online? I plan on using this software for a very long time and want to OWN what I pay for whether I get a disc or not.
If someone actually bought the game and then used the pirated version to get rid of the DRM (though why you'd insist on downloading the pirated version instead of activating the official version is kind of mind bogling) at least you bought the game.
But don't try to justify someone not buying the game because of DRM and then pirating it. Its not a lost sale, but the pirate IS unfairly playing the game without paying for the work of the developers.
And no one needs to justify piracy. It looks to me like Niz was willing to be a paying customer and the terms of service pushed him away. This is a bad thing. This kind of project doesn't need DRM IMHO. Most PC customers will be old school fans who are willing to pay for the possibility of future releases. I think the iOS and Android base would be the bigger risk of non-payment. The walled garden stores will probably generate most of the sales anyway.
You may want to consider getting off your high horse and helping to defend consumer rights. DRM is a losing battle. It doesn't stop real pirates and it hurts real customers.
I'm sorry, but people on a high horse are those that use DRM as an excuse for piracy and then try to enoble the act.
And don't give me the "help defend consumer rights" speech. When the DRM that is planned for BGEE is already practically non-existent, complaining about it starts to sound ridiculous.
If the DRM is that non-existent than why implement it at all? It is a method of control. They should not require any control over MY purchase. Plenty of very successful distributions have moved away from DRM. I think Beamdog should be one of them. I would normally vote with my wallet and just buy from GOG. But I'm torn on this issue because I LOVE the underlying concept of what these guys are doing and want to vote with my wallet to support them. But the DRM issue is real and should at the least be thoroughly discussed. This is a lot more important than "release on Steam or else" threads.
We might be tempted to say that people complain about DRM as an excuse for piracy, but just from some of the products I've seen published over the years, piracy exists whether there is DRM or not. Even games like Diablo 3, which requires a connection to even play the game, is, I believe, cracked (I don't know how they do it, but they do it). So, in the end, the point of arguing and making excuses to pirate is moot. Some people may use it as an excuse, but I believe, for the most part, many people are legitimately fed up with DRM in general and plenty of businesses are losing customers because of the absurdity of the DRM system.
Just looking up some of the reviews and comments for games like the Witcher 2, which can be obtained from gog.com DRM free, a lot of people praise this practice specifically, and a lot of people invest money on companies that can provide a hassle free product. Some digital distributors enjoy advertising their products as "DRM free" because it sells.
A next to non-existent DRM system is great. Or at least better than the rest, but the fact that it still exists still remains a problem for a lot of people. At the end of the day, I think the developer should ask themselves this: what does it really accomplish? Does the system really keep pirates in check? Without a clear answer, the existence of even a near non-existent DRM should be put to question.
This is why PC gamers can't have nice things. We get a reputation for rampant piracy and shareholder backed publishers flee to the consoles.
Example: With Nevewinter Nights, I rather install my original disc + the last standalone patch, than just letting the original game download and install the whole updates once more. ( I've installed NWN many times since its release xD )
Another advantage of standalone updates, is that you can choose anytime which specific game version you wanna play, while auto-updates only allow you to update to the current last version.
Example: When I was playing Diablo 2 with mods, sometimes Blizzard patches was breaking mod compatibility, or was modifying skills in a way we did not like. With standalone patches we were able to play with the version we wanted anytime, even on new installation.
@Avenger_teambg: Not everybody has a steady and fast connection. Some people don't even have a connection at all. Such players obviously normally buy retail boxes.
But in the case of digital sale only available online for example such as on gog.com, such person will go download the game at cyber Coffee or at a friend's home, or get a friend to send the files on CD through snail mail.
I have personally done that for friends that needed to get big updates or other files from Internet but could not technically do so themselves, or not in a practical time. For these people, DRM for a product when no alternative is available such as a retail box, is very annoying. Of course from a Game Publisher standpoint, I guess it's a minority so they don't care.
I don't like DRM for other reasons as well, but I'm not going into that discussion again because it's always the same things said again and again
Anyway, it´s clear that there are some people that want Zero DRM. I don´t really care if there is or isn´t DRM. I want the game to be the best it can be and the Devs get what they deserve for thier work.
You only have to login uniquely on the website, like you would do on any online shop even if it' s just to buy shoes. Whatever you do after with your purchased product is up to you, not to the online shop.
In the case of GOG games. You will never have to authenticate to install or use the game, even on a new or offline machine.
From what I understood BGEE will require to authenticate each time you install the game. Some are not happy with that, some don't care but you can't say truthfully that it is the same.
On the other hand if you dont like either of the above, YOURE IN THE WRONG PLACE !!!
I love it how you always avoid actually responding to my arguments.
As for the Ritilin, well, I guess you can follow your own advice and skip my posts.
@lordkim
Though I do think they're going a bit overboard with their reactions to the DRM that will be present in BGEE, its still good that they express their concerns just as long as they do it in a responsible and respectful manner.
And just in case I need to point it out, saying "if the game has DRM I'm going to pirate it" isn't a responsible thing to do and it certainly doesn't respect the people working on BGEE.
Like I said I already own (meaning that I PAID MONEY) all 4 Interplay BG series boxes plus I bought IWD1 & 2, and PLANESCAPE TORMENT, like I said I'm a sucker for these games, absolutely love them, played full BGT over 20 times, almost tried every single fan made mod, I'm one of those guys that helped keep BG alive over the years, so that now the Beamdog guys do this great project. What I was trying to say is that I made a plea to them, so my ALL TIME FAVORITE GAME gets better not go down the drain along with most modern game sewage...
Oh and did I mention "really bad eggs"?
My issues with what you posted were mostly directed at you saying that you were going to pirate the game because of the DRM.
People won't buy BGEE because it has DRM? I'm ok with that, its their money and I have no right to tell them what they should or shouldn't buy. But DRM is no excuse for piracy. You having bought the previous versions of BG doesn't entitle you to pirating BGEE just because it has DRM.
The BG community would still need me and all the fans whether they own the game legit or not, helps keep the potential of the project alive.
Even big time companies like microsoft tolerate pirates, if things get more strict with windows think of all those people that would flee to *nix OS.
I for one most certainly will, and yes my windows are just a non-legit pirate CHEAP copy, I admit it I never in my life own Windows in an official capacity...
If you're against any kind of DRM, then don't buy BGEE. Plain and simple.
But when you use DRM as an excuse to pirate the game you lose all of the moral high ground that you had.
Why dont you buy the game, and than "crack" it ( or pirate it to your own convenience ) - you dont see much logic in it dont you? why bother paying 20$ while you can get the game for free, which means that DRM is an excuse to pirate the game.
you are basicly spit into the well you are drinking from. " I'm a sucker for these games, absolutely love them - But skrew those who make them"
Unlike Microsoft, Beamdog cant suffer piracy - because beamdog is a small company and for them every sale counts, unlike Microsoft which will get their billions one way or another.
the BG community does not need people like you, the more people are like you, the more diminishes the chance to see any future project such as BG2:EE, PST:EE, BG3.
Every one going on about how light the DRM is on this game is ignoring the fact that if the server goes down the installations are not possible. The server will go down. The only questions are when and if a patch will be released. It is inappropriate for me to bear the risk in this arrangement. My purpose is not to promote piracy, but to try and push for a better product. A DRM free product is clearly better for the customer. And I believe it is better for the developer as well.
Oh, and if you pirate the game, then your boss should "pirate" your salary as well... just to give you a taste of what it feels like.