I honestly can't see how a pure-Wizard Slayer has more restriction than a pure-Kensai.
90% of the effects you would get from Amulets, Rings and etc can be reproduced by armors and weapons. And let's not forget you can use boots, shields and helmets. The only thing that really hurts is losing some gloves/bracers and belts (specially the belt vs. piercing).
He is the most versatile of all the Fighter kits, being allowed to achieve Grandmastery in any weapon. And fits an awesome role in a party, letting others members have better gear. And his innate MR is a life saver. You can throw some MR gear on top of it and you're resilient against the most dangerous thing in SoA-ToB: wizards. Specially using the rebalancing mod and drinking a Potion of Magic Protection to achieve around 100% MR and soak an entire spell book.
"Oh, but anyone using a Scroll of Magic Protection can do this".
Sure, but not as natural as the WS does. And those scrolls are harder to find than these potions. And let's not forget that the WS is applying miscast magic while soaking the spells, making a save environment for other party members.
My Thief -> WS run was one of the most enjoyable. I needed to use all sort of resources (different arrows and darts, lots of weapons, better timing and positioning, smart choose of targets). WS requires an intelligent approach.
The only reason why I don't play a WS again is because I can't take the Fighter stronghold anymore. Despite being my favorite stronghold I did it so many times that I'm tired of it.
I really can't remember. It was as soon as I got 100% Detect Illusion and 100% Set Traps (nice way to deal with goons and summons - retreat to traps, drops tons of arrows in the mean time, kill the bastards and go after the wizard).
@tbone1 do you like to play solo or party? Do you use EE or original? What mods, if any, do you run?
I play EE unmodded (I use an iPad these days for convenience; long story) and tend to play a party. I tend to play for RP reasons these days, but the wizard slayer just seems to be underwhelming and not particularly interesting.
Maybe I'm thinking of it wrong; given their "shorty saves", would dwarves, halflings, and gnomes be a better option?
@tbone1 I agree that a dwarf probably makes the best wizard slayer in power-gaming terms. I also think that's a good choice in RP terms as dwarfs are a good fit with innate magic resistance and inability to use miscellaneous magic items.
WSs are able to use the tomes. If solo it's impossible for an umodded wizard slayer to get the strength tome, but that's not a problem if you have a party. Another point of interest is that they can also use green scrolls, which makes a big difference to their viability as a solo class in BG1, but won't really affect you.
In relation to why you might want to play them here's a few more points: - In the original BG, wizard slayer miscast magic only worked using melee attacks - but that's not the case with EE, so how about giving your WS darts proficiency? The APR advantage amplifies weapon proficiency benefits meaning that darts are one of the most damaging weapon options in BG1 for fighters and there are plenty of magical darts available to spice it up further. With 4 APR from level 7 (5 if hasted) you'll also be shutting down mages within a round which is a pretty nice benefit. - most character classes you can pick are simply duplicating abilities that you already have available from NPCs. That's not the case with the WS, which I think makes it an interesting class to play. - someone in the thread recently mentioned they thought it was odd WSs got magic resistance. I think exactly the opposite - it seems entirely fitting for a son of Bhaal. Think about the hell trials where one of the options is to raise your innate magic resistance - to me that's just developing abilities that were always innate and the WS is specialising in finding that bit of the inner self before other children of Bhaal.
Are you talking about the tomes? If so, yes they can. At least the rebalanced one can.
BG implemented the tomes as they were somehow miracle, but they aren't that magical. See in the spoiler below, taken from 2E Dungen Master Guide:
Manual of Bodily Health: The metal-bound manual of bodily health appears to be an arcane, rare, but nonmagical book. If a detect magic spell is cast upon it, the manual will radiate an aura of magic. Any character who reads the work (24 hours of time over 3-5 days) will know how to increase his Constitution by one point—this involves a special dietary regimen and breathing exercises over a one-month period. The book disappears immediately upon completion of its contents.
The point of Constitution is gained only after the prescribed regimen is followed. In three months the knowledge of the secrets to bodily health will be forgotten. The knowledge cannot be articulated or recorded by the reader. The manual will not be useful to any character a second time, nor will more than one character be able to benefit from a single copy.
I'm gradually warming up to the Wizard slayer...Mostly for fun and to see how well it works for me, losing magic items does hurt, but so does losing armor for a pure kensai. Wizard slayer through bg1 is actually more relaxing that way.
I stopped playing my kensai after Sarevok and I don't think I'll be taking him into BG1..Somehow losing access to heavy armor makes me so sad, I can't enjoy my plainly clothed fighter:( But that's just me...
Why is there no option that the kit is just pure garbage?
Wizard slayers are ironically one of the worst classes for slaying Wizards. I have played a wizard slayer since I like the concept, but they really need the fan made patch to be both interesting and of any use beyond dual class use-any-item cheese.
Why is there no option that the kit is just pure garbage?
Wizard slayers are ironically one of the worst classes for slaying Wizards. I have played a wizard slayer since I like the concept, but they really need the fan made patch to be both interesting and of any use beyond dual class use-any-item cheese.
You sir are forgetting that here we consider it "less convenient" or "more fun", not "pure garbage", it's a bit of a harsh term methinks.
The kit is very powerful if you use it properly. Unlike Inquisitors/Berserkers, this kit is designed to have long battles against mages. High MR + Miscast Magic on hit = can disable/tank Arcane spellcasters for a long time, which is something not many classes can afford to do (at least not without spells or lots of items).
You sir are forgetting that here we consider it "less convenient" or "more fun", not "pure garbage", it's a bit of a harsh term methinks.
The kit is very powerful if you use it properly. Unlike Inquisitors/Berserkers, this kit is designed to have long battles against mages. High MR + Miscast Magic on hit = can disable/tank Arcane spellcasters for a long time, which is something not many classes can afford to do (at least not without spells or lots of items).
It deserves harshness, even in long battles... still junk
Miscast stacks doesn't even proc unless the mage actually gets hit (which usually means dead mage), sure it bypasses illusion/stoneskin... but so will poison which disrupt/kills the mage much faster. Wizard Slayers can't even do anything to the most basic overused npc defense contingency in the game [immunity to XXX weaponry]. Losing the ability to use anti-magic items for a mediocre MR also isn't worth it.
The good news is the WS rebalance makes them almost OP for killing mages, can use anti-magic items and have some nice roleplaying HLA's. They also removed cheesy dual classing readme.spellholdstudios.net/readme_wsr.html
All of this talk on Wizard Slayers is making me want to release this Wizard Slayer NPC/quest mod early...but I must resist the urge. Quality first and all that. Srsly though, any good ideas on Wiz Slayer items or quest ideas should be sent my way
In my view WS rebalance still doesn't make them as OP as inquisitors, so in my view it's a perfectly fair upgrade if you wouldn't try one out otherwise. I find them to be fun just as they are, personally.
One issue I have is that some magic items work, but not others. Why should a sword be usable and not gloves? That makes no sense to me. Why a breastplate, but not a ring?
What I'd like to see....
Wizard Slayers don't use any magic items. Instead, they take away the magic of those around them.
--------------------
* Wizard Slayers only use mundane items. They carve runes into them that disrupt the weave, making magic no longer work in their presence. This can be a great boon to them, and a curse to the enemy. But if they are not careful, they can be almost as damaging to their allies as well.
* Weapons: - Miscast magic as normal - Lvl 3: Hits as a +1 weapon and mundane weapon (for the purpose of hitting, no bonus damage or hit) - Lvl 7: Hits as a +2 weapon and mundane weapon - Lvl 11: Hits as a +3 weapon and mundane weapon - Lvl 15: Hits as a +4 weapon and mundane weapon - lvl 20: Hits as a +5 weapon and mundane weapon
* Armor: - Lvl 3: All magical attacks around you have -1 to hit and -1 damage (does not affect mundane attacks) - Lvl 7: -2 to hit and -2 damage - Lvl 11: -3 to hit and -3 damage - Lvl 15: -4 to hit and -4 damage - Lvl 20: -5 to hit and -5 damage
* Helms: - Lvl 3: 10% detect illusions each round (for you and the enemy) - Lvl 7: 20% - Lvl 11: 30% - Lvl 15: 40% - Lvl 20: 50%
* Gauntlets: - Lvl 3: 10% chance each hit to cast dispel magic on target - Lvl 11: 10% chance each hit to cast dispel magic and spell thrust on target - Lvl 20: 10% chance each hit to cast dispel magic, spell thrust and breach on target
* Cloak: - Lvl 3: 10% chance each round for all magic around you to cast as if though from a wild mage - Lvl 7: 20% - Lvl 11: 30% - Lvl 15: 40% - Lvl 20: 50%
----------
You get to use every item slot. Which to me is fun.
Your abilities are not magic related. Rather, they are the antithesis. Magic just doesn't work for you. Magic items in your hand are just plain old steel. You see through illusions. Mages miscast around you. The more you hit them, the harder it is for them to cast. Hitting them causes their spell to fail. You are basically a mage's worst nightmare. Sure, they can still time-stop you and and lower your resistance, but it's much harder to take you on. Even enemy warriors find their magical items and armor not protecting them as much as they should when they fight you.
That said, the great price of the wizard slayer is that everyone is affected. Your companion's magical weapons won't strike as keenly when they fight by your side. And your own spell casters will need to keep a wide berth from you, lest their magic go wild and their illusions be dispelled.
Just make the area of affect for you small, so that someone has to be right next to you. So if you get careless, your wizard slayer ends up debuffing your own party. And enemy mages who aren't right in your face still aren't affected. But once you close the gap, or use careful positioning, you start wrecking face.
And the other weakness is that you don't get many combat buffs. Getting your AC up is going to be hard (especially with full plate and shield being the best AC you can get!) and getting your THACO down will be hard as your attacks don't get bonuses.
But then again...you are really just that. A disrupter. Who relies on making everyone else worse instead of making yourself better.
I really like the idea of dwarven warriors doing this. Carving runes on their armor which protect them from the underhanded trickery of their opponents. From there, it comes down completely to your skill, strength and toughness to win the day.
Got elves giving you trouble? Send a line of these guys at them. Watch their arcane arrows become mundane as they strike their shields, their enchanted swords lose their edge as they hit steel, and their spells dissipate into nothing once cast.
Just...don't send them out to kill giants. When someone swings a tree at you, you kind of want magical armor. Or a dragon. They'll just chuckle as they roast you with fire, or flat out step on you...
The kit is very powerful if you use it properly. Unlike Inquisitors/Berserkers, this kit is designed to have long battles against mages. High MR + Miscast Magic on hit = can disable/tank Arcane spellcasters for a long time, which is something not many classes can afford to do (at least not without spells or lots of items).
My experience is that battles against mages tend to end rather fast. Either your team destroyes / disables the enemy mage fast or you're all toast (or doomed as Edwin would say ).
Interesting concept, @Grum. Insightful for that. I like the idea of a WS being a magic-sinkhole rather than merely gimped.
Nevertheless, by level 20 that'd be a very powerful caster-killer indeed, and I wonder maybe if you've over-compensated for the weakness of the existing WS kit - this might be too strong. Also, being able to wield a mundane weapon as a +5 enchanted weapon seems to me inconsistent with the anti-magical concept.
Wizard slayer is in the complete barbarian handbook and there isnt any similarity with the bg one. Its a choosen barbarian who seek to slay evil wizards and priests. It has: protection from evil aura, known allignement at will ability, detetect illusion 2 per day, detect magic ability, attack magical creatures passive: she only can use non magical weapons, but can hit as enchanted weapon with the following, after level 4 is +1 weapon, level 6 is +2, level 8 is +3, level 10 is +4, level 12 is +5. Its only enchantment bonus not hit or damage. Must be good allignement, Xp bonus: if slay evil wizard or priest gain double xp, No magical items: cant use magical items of any kind, if allows a wizard to cast a benefical spell on her, she looses all abilities for 24 hours, Combat compulsion: in a battle she must attack the evil wizard or priest, and not defend allies etc.
I really do not see why wizardslayers need to be able to hit mages under weapon immunity different than other melee classes. Give the mages a chance, that is why the WS gets the magic resistance. It is only four rounds. If the WS would be able to immediately surpass or bring down those protections, you would have no fight at all and hence a boring battle system.
Besides, you can still hit the mages if the WS has the appropriate weapon; pfmw just needs mundane weapons and the mantle spells need a higher enchantment. And really, absolute immunity should never be piercable.
To be able to dispel these immunities is not the task of the WS. Survivability is. And then once those nasty protections are down, he will shine with spell failure before the mage can refresh those type of protections while most other classes and kits still need to get rid of things like stoneskin and illusions (which can still soak enough hits until the mage can refresh (especially given good AI from mods).
So I think the WS is fine, I just do not like warrior classes as protagonist.
I really do not see why wizardslayers need to be able to hit mages under weapon immunity different than other melee classes.
I agree with that. Liches can actually use PfMW as real protection, due to natural immunity to mundane weapons. Other mages that try that though can just be hit by normal weapons. That means that nearly all mages will be lucky to get one standard spell off in the whole contest (a starting buff or contingency with absolute immunity could extend that for occasional enemies). The only defense mages have is to go invisible repeatedly by potion or contingency. That won't help them in the standard game, due to the AI's compulsion to attack an enemy, but can occasionally be a pain with SCS mages who recognise the inevitability of their defeat and just stay invisible ...
One issue I have is that some magic items work, but not others. Why should a sword be usable and not gloves? That makes no sense to me. Why a breastplate, but not a ring?
What I'd like to see....
Wizard Slayers don't use any magic items. Instead, they take away the magic of those around them.
--------------------
* Wizard Slayers only use mundane items. They carve runes into them that disrupt the weave, making magic no longer work in their presence. This can be a great boon to them, and a curse to the enemy. But if they are not careful, they can be almost as damaging to their allies as well.
* Weapons: - Miscast magic as normal - Lvl 3: Hits as a +1 weapon and mundane weapon (for the purpose of hitting, no bonus damage or hit) - Lvl 7: Hits as a +2 weapon and mundane weapon - Lvl 11: Hits as a +3 weapon and mundane weapon - Lvl 15: Hits as a +4 weapon and mundane weapon - lvl 20: Hits as a +5 weapon and mundane weapon
* Armor: - Lvl 3: All magical attacks around you have -1 to hit and -1 damage (does not affect mundane attacks) - Lvl 7: -2 to hit and -2 damage - Lvl 11: -3 to hit and -3 damage - Lvl 15: -4 to hit and -4 damage - Lvl 20: -5 to hit and -5 damage
* Helms: - Lvl 3: 10% detect illusions each round (for you and the enemy) - Lvl 7: 20% - Lvl 11: 30% - Lvl 15: 40% - Lvl 20: 50%
* Gauntlets: - Lvl 3: 10% chance each hit to cast dispel magic on target - Lvl 11: 10% chance each hit to cast dispel magic and spell thrust on target - Lvl 20: 10% chance each hit to cast dispel magic, spell thrust and breach on target
* Cloak: - Lvl 3: 10% chance each round for all magic around you to cast as if though from a wild mage - Lvl 7: 20% - Lvl 11: 30% - Lvl 15: 40% - Lvl 20: 50%
----------
You get to use every item slot. Which to me is fun.
Your abilities are not magic related. Rather, they are the antithesis. Magic just doesn't work for you. Magic items in your hand are just plain old steel. You see through illusions. Mages miscast around you. The more you hit them, the harder it is for them to cast. Hitting them causes their spell to fail. You are basically a mage's worst nightmare. Sure, they can still time-stop you and and lower your resistance, but it's much harder to take you on. Even enemy warriors find their magical items and armor not protecting them as much as they should when they fight you.
That said, the great price of the wizard slayer is that everyone is affected. Your companion's magical weapons won't strike as keenly when they fight by your side. And your own spell casters will need to keep a wide berth from you, lest their magic go wild and their illusions be dispelled.
Just make the area of affect for you small, so that someone has to be right next to you. So if you get careless, your wizard slayer ends up debuffing your own party. And enemy mages who aren't right in your face still aren't affected. But once you close the gap, or use careful positioning, you start wrecking face.
And the other weakness is that you don't get many combat buffs. Getting your AC up is going to be hard (especially with full plate and shield being the best AC you can get!) and getting your THACO down will be hard as your attacks don't get bonuses.
But then again...you are really just that. A disrupter. Who relies on making everyone else worse instead of making yourself better.
I really like the idea of dwarven warriors doing this. Carving runes on their armor which protect them from the underhanded trickery of their opponents. From there, it comes down completely to your skill, strength and toughness to win the day.
Got elves giving you trouble? Send a line of these guys at them. Watch their arcane arrows become mundane as they strike their shields, their enchanted swords lose their edge as they hit steel, and their spells dissipate into nothing once cast.
Just...don't send them out to kill giants. When someone swings a tree at you, you kind of want magical armor. Or a dragon. They'll just chuckle as they roast you with fire, or flat out step on you...
This is almost perfect in my opinion. Will come back to this later.
I really can't remember. It was as soon as I got 100% Detect Illusion and 100% Set Traps (nice way to deal with goons and summons - retreat to traps, drops tons of arrows in the mean time, kill the bastards and go after the wizard).
I had one of those classes and I dualed at level 9. It was fun to play with but I am stuck with around 4 - 0 Thac0 throughout the game. It is a very powerful class in theori but in practice, I was disapointed. But having a wizard slayer as an archer can be fun and powerful. Remember that his hits will interupt clerics as well.
In my fully created party I had a wizard slayer - mage. I dualed at level nine, since Thac0 here is pretty much irrelevant. You act as a normal mage most of the game. Against other mages you use MMM and debuffing spells. That is a REAL wizard slayer. Though some people might not stand the ironically RPG-breaking class.
For a thief/wizard slayer, dual at 13 if you want to be effecient against other fighters.
Why can't Wizard Slayer weakness be physical damage instead? They spend so much time studying ways to defend themselves against magic that it would seem almost natural that they neglect training to defend themselves against a physical non-magic threat. How about this to make them more interesting (and niche)
Advantages: * 10%/25%/40% lower chance of successful spell casting per hit for 5 rounds with a ranged/single/two handed weapon respectively. Each hit refreshes duration and stacks up to a 90% Maximum. * Summons hit by the slayer must succeed a -4 save vs death or die instantly * Critical hits cast Deafness on the target. Every 5 levels increases the save penalty of deaf by -1. * 1/day for every 5 levels may use Ruby's ray of reversal * 1/day for every 5 levels may use Minor Globe of invulnerability * Time stop resistance: 1% chance per level you will not be affected by an enemy's Time stop spell.
Disadvantages: * +20% Vulnerability to slashing/piercing/bludgeoning damage * Use of magical items outside of helms, weapons, armor, boots, healing potions and shields are limited. They must provide protection from magic in some form. [Amulet of 5% Magic Resistance, Kaligun's Amulet of Magic Resistance, the Cloak of Balduran, Potion of Magic Protection, Cloak of Mirroring, Belt of Inertial Barrier, Amulet of Spell Warding, Ring of Spell Turning, Potion of Magic Shielding and Potion of Magic Blocking]
High level Abilities: Soul of the Nishruu: For the next 5 rounds you glow red like a Nishruu and gain 50% magic resistance. All successful attacks on the enemy removes their highest level memorized spell and drains 1 magical charge from their items. Unfortunately your vulnerability to slashing/piercing/bludgeoning damage will increase by an additional +20% vulnerability while in this form.
Bigot of magic: All your abilities now work against divine spell casters due to your all round hatred of magic users. However you lose the ability to cast Ruby's ray of reversal, Deafness and Minor Globe of invulnerability. This change is permanent and once selected it cannot be undone.
Spot the heretic: 3/day you may use an ability similar to true sight, however this ability only detects magical means of invisibility/illusions (not mundane means like hiding in shadows). Furthermore any magical users caught in the area now gain 50% vulnerability to all of your attacks and receive a -2 penalty to all saving throws.
Wizard Slayer get some use in LoB mode due to enemy mages having hundreds of HP, making spell failure more relevant. Aside from that the kit is hastily cobbled together without much thought and in fact Monks and Inquisitors are far more adept at wizard slaying.
You *could* use the @semiticgod -patented trick of equipping them with Fire Seeds though it really depends on your tolerance for cheese.
I've only tried Wizard Slayer once, back in the days before BG:EE. Since I'm one of those Whole Story guys, I tried it in BGT.
A large part of why there's widespread dislike of Wizard Slayer charnames is because in the BG1 leg of the story most of your defenses come from non-weapon and non-armor items. Because of the level cap (and WS apparently not affecting divine casters at all combined with the prevalence of hostile divine casters in BG1) it's actually not easy to run a Wizard Slayer in BG1 (and by extension BGEE and SoD).
(This is actually true for most kits in the context of BG1 since they were balanced for BG2 and weren't really rebalanced for BGEE, but Wizard Slayers get hit hard with this because of the item restrictions)
With that said... I am going to roll up a Wizard Slayer later this year, with intent of dualing to Cleric.
Wow, glad to see my idea wasn't ignored out of hand.
Aye...maybe my idea might go a bit far by the end. But really...a Lvl 30 wizard kills any martial easily (except maybe a 100% MR monk, but even that can be time-stopped/lower resistanced to death). What's wrong with having one type of martial who just reminds casters that they are indeed mortal? Especially when other martials can beat him up and take his lunch money.
How would you guys feel about Wizard Slayer HLA's? Perhaps an AoE centered on the wiz slayer that dispels magic and does crushing damage or something? Adding Breach on hit to a weapon?
Wow, glad to see my idea wasn't ignored out of hand.
Aye...maybe my idea might go a bit far by the end. But really...a Lvl 30 wizard kills any martial easily (except maybe a 100% MR monk, but even that can be time-stopped/lower resistanced to death). What's wrong with having one type of martial who just reminds casters that they are indeed mortal? Especially when other martials can beat him up and take his lunch money.
Not in game, my level5thief/level35 fighter was virtually immune to anything wizards threw out by the end.
Don't know why, it never said I was 100% magic resistant, but beholders/gauths haven't been able to touch me for a long, long time since SOA, and Sendai was a problem (insane/SCS) because of hitting, not magic. Fire heals, ADHW is just light fog, and wizards never seem to use the rarer spells.
So might make sense on paper, but the game doesn't need a build to end up as magic immune as an end goal.
Comments
90% of the effects you would get from Amulets, Rings and etc can be reproduced by armors and weapons. And let's not forget you can use boots, shields and helmets. The only thing that really hurts is losing some gloves/bracers and belts (specially the belt vs. piercing).
He is the most versatile of all the Fighter kits, being allowed to achieve Grandmastery in any weapon. And fits an awesome role in a party, letting others members have better gear. And his innate MR is a life saver. You can throw some MR gear on top of it and you're resilient against the most dangerous thing in SoA-ToB: wizards. Specially using the rebalancing mod and drinking a Potion of Magic Protection to achieve around 100% MR and soak an entire spell book.
"Oh, but anyone using a Scroll of Magic Protection can do this".
Sure, but not as natural as the WS does. And those scrolls are harder to find than these potions. And let's not forget that the WS is applying miscast magic while soaking the spells, making a save environment for other party members.
My Thief -> WS run was one of the most enjoyable. I needed to use all sort of resources (different arrows and darts, lots of weapons, better timing and positioning, smart choose of targets). WS requires an intelligent approach.
The only reason why I don't play a WS again is because I can't take the Fighter stronghold anymore. Despite being my favorite stronghold I did it so many times that I'm tired of it.
I really can't remember. It was as soon as I got 100% Detect Illusion and 100% Set Traps (nice way to deal with goons and summons - retreat to traps, drops tons of arrows in the mean time, kill the bastards and go after the wizard).
Maybe I'm thinking of it wrong; given their "shorty saves", would dwarves, halflings, and gnomes be a better option?
WSs are able to use the tomes. If solo it's impossible for an umodded wizard slayer to get the strength tome, but that's not a problem if you have a party. Another point of interest is that they can also use green scrolls, which makes a big difference to their viability as a solo class in BG1, but won't really affect you.
In relation to why you might want to play them here's a few more points:
- In the original BG, wizard slayer miscast magic only worked using melee attacks - but that's not the case with EE, so how about giving your WS darts proficiency? The APR advantage amplifies weapon proficiency benefits meaning that darts are one of the most damaging weapon options in BG1 for fighters and there are plenty of magical darts available to spice it up further. With 4 APR from level 7 (5 if hasted) you'll also be shutting down mages within a round which is a pretty nice benefit.
- most character classes you can pick are simply duplicating abilities that you already have available from NPCs. That's not the case with the WS, which I think makes it an interesting class to play.
- someone in the thread recently mentioned they thought it was odd WSs got magic resistance. I think exactly the opposite - it seems entirely fitting for a son of Bhaal. Think about the hell trials where one of the options is to raise your innate magic resistance - to me that's just developing abilities that were always innate and the WS is specialising in finding that bit of the inner self before other children of Bhaal.
BG implemented the tomes as they were somehow miracle, but they aren't that magical. See in the spoiler below, taken from 2E Dungen Master Guide:
The point of Constitution is gained only after the prescribed regimen is followed. In three months the knowledge of the secrets to bodily health will be forgotten. The knowledge cannot be articulated or recorded by the reader. The manual will not be useful to any character a second time, nor will more than one character be able to benefit from a single copy.
I stopped playing my kensai after Sarevok and I don't think I'll be taking him into BG1..Somehow losing access to heavy armor makes me so sad, I can't enjoy my plainly clothed fighter:(
But that's just me...
Wizard slayers are ironically one of the worst classes for slaying Wizards. I have played a wizard slayer since I like the concept, but they really need the fan made patch to be both interesting and of any use beyond dual class use-any-item cheese.
The kit is very powerful if you use it properly. Unlike Inquisitors/Berserkers, this kit is designed to have long battles against mages. High MR + Miscast Magic on hit = can disable/tank Arcane spellcasters for a long time, which is something not many classes can afford to do (at least not without spells or lots of items).
Miscast stacks doesn't even proc unless the mage actually gets hit (which usually means dead mage), sure it bypasses illusion/stoneskin... but so will poison which disrupt/kills the mage much faster. Wizard Slayers can't even do anything to the most basic overused npc defense contingency in the game [immunity to XXX weaponry]. Losing the ability to use anti-magic items for a mediocre MR also isn't worth it.
The good news is the WS rebalance makes them almost OP for killing mages, can use anti-magic items and have some nice roleplaying HLA's. They also removed cheesy dual classing
readme.spellholdstudios.net/readme_wsr.html
In my view WS rebalance still doesn't make them as OP as inquisitors, so in my view it's a perfectly fair upgrade if you wouldn't try one out otherwise. I find them to be fun just as they are, personally.
What I'd like to see....
Wizard Slayers don't use any magic items. Instead, they take away the magic of those around them.
--------------------
* Wizard Slayers only use mundane items. They carve runes into them that disrupt the weave, making magic no longer work in their presence. This can be a great boon to them, and a curse to the enemy. But if they are not careful, they can be almost as damaging to their allies as well.
* Weapons:
- Miscast magic as normal
- Lvl 3: Hits as a +1 weapon and mundane weapon (for the purpose of hitting, no bonus damage or hit)
- Lvl 7: Hits as a +2 weapon and mundane weapon
- Lvl 11: Hits as a +3 weapon and mundane weapon
- Lvl 15: Hits as a +4 weapon and mundane weapon
- lvl 20: Hits as a +5 weapon and mundane weapon
* Armor:
- Lvl 3: All magical attacks around you have -1 to hit and -1 damage (does not affect mundane attacks)
- Lvl 7: -2 to hit and -2 damage
- Lvl 11: -3 to hit and -3 damage
- Lvl 15: -4 to hit and -4 damage
- Lvl 20: -5 to hit and -5 damage
* Left Ring:
- Lvl 3: +1 saves
- Lvl 7: +2 saves
- Lvl 11: +3 saves
- Lvl 15: +4 saves
- Lvl 20: +5 saves
* Right Ring:
- Magic resistance as per class
* Helms:
- Lvl 3: 10% detect illusions each round (for you and the enemy)
- Lvl 7: 20%
- Lvl 11: 30%
- Lvl 15: 40%
- Lvl 20: 50%
* Gauntlets:
- Lvl 3: 10% chance each hit to cast dispel magic on target
- Lvl 11: 10% chance each hit to cast dispel magic and spell thrust on target
- Lvl 20: 10% chance each hit to cast dispel magic, spell thrust and breach on target
* Necklace:
- Lvl 3: 10% chance to avoid magical affects from enemy attacks (elemental damage, slow, poison, etc)
- Lvl 7: 20%
- Lvl 11: 30%
- Lvl 15: 40%
- Lvl 20: 50%
* Cloak:
- Lvl 3: 10% chance each round for all magic around you to cast as if though from a wild mage
- Lvl 7: 20%
- Lvl 11: 30%
- Lvl 15: 40%
- Lvl 20: 50%
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You get to use every item slot. Which to me is fun.
Your abilities are not magic related. Rather, they are the antithesis. Magic just doesn't work for you. Magic items in your hand are just plain old steel. You see through illusions. Mages miscast around you. The more you hit them, the harder it is for them to cast. Hitting them causes their spell to fail. You are basically a mage's worst nightmare. Sure, they can still time-stop you and and lower your resistance, but it's much harder to take you on. Even enemy warriors find their magical items and armor not protecting them as much as they should when they fight you.
That said, the great price of the wizard slayer is that everyone is affected. Your companion's magical weapons won't strike as keenly when they fight by your side. And your own spell casters will need to keep a wide berth from you, lest their magic go wild and their illusions be dispelled.
Just make the area of affect for you small, so that someone has to be right next to you. So if you get careless, your wizard slayer ends up debuffing your own party. And enemy mages who aren't right in your face still aren't affected. But once you close the gap, or use careful positioning, you start wrecking face.
And the other weakness is that you don't get many combat buffs. Getting your AC up is going to be hard (especially with full plate and shield being the best AC you can get!) and getting your THACO down will be hard as your attacks don't get bonuses.
But then again...you are really just that. A disrupter. Who relies on making everyone else worse instead of making yourself better.
I really like the idea of dwarven warriors doing this. Carving runes on their armor which protect them from the underhanded trickery of their opponents. From there, it comes down completely to your skill, strength and toughness to win the day.
Got elves giving you trouble? Send a line of these guys at them. Watch their arcane arrows become mundane as they strike their shields, their enchanted swords lose their edge as they hit steel, and their spells dissipate into nothing once cast.
Just...don't send them out to kill giants. When someone swings a tree at you, you kind of want magical armor. Or a dragon. They'll just chuckle as they roast you with fire, or flat out step on you...
I see "wizard slayer" and can't really reconcile that with having any wizards in party. Why would they trust you at all?
So for RP reasons.
Nevertheless, by level 20 that'd be a very powerful caster-killer indeed, and I wonder maybe if you've over-compensated for the weakness of the existing WS kit - this might be too strong. Also, being able to wield a mundane weapon as a +5 enchanted weapon seems to me inconsistent with the anti-magical concept.
Wizard slayer is in the complete barbarian handbook and there isnt any similarity with the bg one. Its a choosen barbarian who seek to slay evil wizards and priests. It has:
protection from evil aura,
known allignement at will ability,
detetect illusion 2 per day,
detect magic ability,
attack magical creatures passive: she only can use non magical weapons, but can hit as enchanted weapon with the following, after level 4 is +1 weapon, level 6 is +2, level 8 is +3, level 10 is +4, level 12 is +5. Its only enchantment bonus not hit or damage.
Must be good allignement,
Xp bonus: if slay evil wizard or priest gain double xp,
No magical items: cant use magical items of any kind, if allows a wizard to cast a benefical spell on her, she looses all abilities for 24 hours,
Combat compulsion: in a battle she must attack the evil wizard or priest, and not defend allies etc.
If the WS would be able to immediately surpass or bring down those protections, you would have no fight at all and hence a boring battle system.
Besides, you can still hit the mages if the WS has the appropriate weapon; pfmw just needs mundane weapons and the mantle spells need a higher enchantment. And really, absolute immunity should never be piercable.
To be able to dispel these immunities is not the task of the WS. Survivability is. And then once those nasty protections are down, he will shine with spell failure before the mage can refresh those type of protections while most other classes and kits still need to get rid of things like stoneskin and illusions (which can still soak enough hits until the mage can refresh (especially given good AI from mods).
So I think the WS is fine, I just do not like warrior classes as protagonist.
In my fully created party I had a wizard slayer - mage. I dualed at level nine, since Thac0 here is pretty much irrelevant. You act as a normal mage most of the game. Against other mages you use MMM and debuffing spells. That is a REAL wizard slayer. Though some people might not stand the ironically RPG-breaking class.
For a thief/wizard slayer, dual at 13 if you want to be effecient against other fighters.
Advantages:
* 10%/25%/40% lower chance of successful spell casting per hit for 5 rounds with a ranged/single/two handed weapon respectively. Each hit refreshes duration and stacks up to a 90% Maximum.
* Summons hit by the slayer must succeed a -4 save vs death or die instantly
* Critical hits cast Deafness on the target. Every 5 levels increases the save penalty of deaf by -1.
* 1/day for every 5 levels may use Ruby's ray of reversal
* 1/day for every 5 levels may use Minor Globe of invulnerability
* Time stop resistance: 1% chance per level you will not be affected by an enemy's Time stop spell.
Disadvantages:
* +20% Vulnerability to slashing/piercing/bludgeoning damage
* Use of magical items outside of helms, weapons, armor, boots, healing potions and shields are limited. They must provide protection from magic in some form. [Amulet of 5% Magic Resistance, Kaligun's Amulet of Magic Resistance, the Cloak of Balduran, Potion of Magic Protection, Cloak of Mirroring, Belt of Inertial Barrier, Amulet of Spell Warding, Ring of Spell Turning, Potion of Magic Shielding and Potion of Magic Blocking]
High level Abilities:
Soul of the Nishruu:
For the next 5 rounds you glow red like a Nishruu and gain 50% magic resistance. All successful attacks on the enemy removes their highest level memorized spell and drains 1 magical charge from their items. Unfortunately your vulnerability to slashing/piercing/bludgeoning damage will increase by an additional +20% vulnerability while in this form.
Bigot of magic:
All your abilities now work against divine spell casters due to your all round hatred of magic users. However you lose the ability to cast Ruby's ray of reversal, Deafness and Minor Globe of invulnerability. This change is permanent and once selected it cannot be undone.
Spot the heretic:
3/day you may use an ability similar to true sight, however this ability only detects magical means of invisibility/illusions (not mundane means like hiding in shadows). Furthermore any magical users caught in the area now gain 50% vulnerability to all of your attacks and receive a -2 penalty to all saving throws.
You *could* use the @semiticgod -patented trick of equipping them with Fire Seeds though it really depends on your tolerance for cheese.
A large part of why there's widespread dislike of Wizard Slayer charnames is because in the BG1 leg of the story most of your defenses come from non-weapon and non-armor items. Because of the level cap (and WS apparently not affecting divine casters at all combined with the prevalence of hostile divine casters in BG1) it's actually not easy to run a Wizard Slayer in BG1 (and by extension BGEE and SoD).
(This is actually true for most kits in the context of BG1 since they were balanced for BG2 and weren't really rebalanced for BGEE, but Wizard Slayers get hit hard with this because of the item restrictions)
With that said... I am going to roll up a Wizard Slayer later this year, with intent of dualing to Cleric.
Aye...maybe my idea might go a bit far by the end. But really...a Lvl 30 wizard kills any martial easily (except maybe a 100% MR monk, but even that can be time-stopped/lower resistanced to death). What's wrong with having one type of martial who just reminds casters that they are indeed mortal? Especially when other martials can beat him up and take his lunch money.
Don't know why, it never said I was 100% magic resistant, but beholders/gauths haven't been able to touch me for a long, long time since SOA, and Sendai was a problem (insane/SCS) because of hitting, not magic.
Fire heals, ADHW is just light fog, and wizards never seem to use the rarer spells.
So might make sense on paper, but the game doesn't need a build to end up as magic immune as an end goal.
Enhancing @Grum ideia, what about...
- Miscast Magic (20% per Hit)
- Spell Resistance 10% + 2%/lv (50% at level 20)
- Lvl 3:
+1 Hit, Damage, Saving Throws, AC, Speed Factor
- Lv 7:
Bonus turns into +2
Chaotic Commands 1x/day
True Seeing 1x/day
Free Action 1x/day
Breach 1x/day
Lv 11:
Bonus turns into +3
Chaotic Commands 2x/day
True Seeing 2x/day
Free Action 2x/day
Breach 2x/day
Lv 15:
Bonus turns into +4
Chaotic Commands 3x/day
Dispel Magic 1x/day
Summon Nishruu 1x/day
True Seeing 3x/day
Free Action 3x/day
Breach 3x/day
Lv 20:
Bonus turns into +5
Chaotic Commands 4x/day
Dispel Magic 2x/day
Summon Nishruu 2x/day
True Seeing 4x/day
Free Action 4x/day
Breach 4x/day
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May not use any magical items except por potions of healing, antidote and heroism.