^ I really like those ability sets and the balance of when you get them. Only difference being I think they should still have access to magic weapons, though maybe not armor. Should they be allowed grandmastery?
^ I really like those ability sets and the balance of when you get them. Only difference being I think they should still have access to magic weapons, though maybe not armor. Should they be allowed grandmastery?
Q1) Keep Grandmastery?
For sure. He is crippled enough without other magical trinkets.
Q2) Allow the use of weapons?
For sure, as long as it lost the bonus for Hit, Damage and SF.
They are Wizard Slayers not Magic Bigots. I see no conceptual reason why they shouldn't be able to use magical weapons and armor with some limited magic trinkets (not to mention they would be even more underpowered at high levels due to weapons/armor being so powerful at end game)
They are Wizard Slayers not Magic Bigots. I see no conceptual reason why they shouldn't be able to use magical weapons and armor with some limited magic trinkets (not to mention they would be even more underpowered at high levels due to weapons/armor being so powerful at end game)
This.
Fighters are heavily reliant on gear and the game throws mountains of epic magic items at the party. If you pile up advantages on the WS to compensate the loss of equipment, at the end of the day you'll just end up with a beefed-up Monk. Simply replacing the item restriction with something less crippling, like limiting their weapon profs to Specialization or giving them a Cleric Hit Dice, would go a long way in redeeming them even without changing their advantages at all.
The kit is very powerful if you use it properly. Unlike Inquisitors/Berserkers, this kit is designed to have long battles against mages. High MR + Miscast Magic on hit = can disable/tank Arcane spellcasters for a long time, which is something not many classes can afford to do (at least not without spells or lots of items).
My experience is that battles against mages tend to end rather fast. Either your team destroyes / disables the enemy mage fast or you're all toast (or doomed as Edwin would say ).
I feel the complete opposite, specially if you're fighting the mage correctly but without being able to get past his defences with Breach. Unless it's a Lich. Then they just blast you away with a triple Skull Trap sequencer on their own face. I play with SCS, so it changes things a lot (vanilla mages are a joke anyway).
Hm i like the vanilla and the rebalancing mod too, but i always imagine the kit without magic resist. Instead gain complete mind magic immunity, charm, confusion, fear, feeblemind, sleep and activable spell turning per 5 levels( mind over magic) or spell level immunity eg: immune to 1-2 spell levels at level 1-5 after immun to level 3 spells at level 6-10 etc up to lvl 7 spells, i dont think full magic immunity is good. The miscast magic is subtle ability.
I feel the complete opposite, specially if you're fighting the mage correctly but without being able to get past his defences with Breach. Unless it's a Lich. Then they just blast you away with a triple Skull Trap sequencer on their own face. I play with SCS, so it changes things a lot (vanilla mages are a joke anyway).
"specifically if you're fighting the mage correctly but without being able to get past his defenses"
What do you mean by "correctly"? From the sound of it you just stand still and facetank the mage until he runs out of spells. Not exactly my idea of a "wizard slayer" (and even then the mage with a good AI mod will just use lower resistance to ruin your MR chance based tanking anyway).
Hm i like the vanilla and the rebalancing mod too, but i always imagine the kit without magic resist. Instead gain complete mind magic immunity, charm, confusion, fear, feeblemind, sleep and activable spell turning per 5 levels( mind over magic) or spell level immunity eg: immune to 1-2 spell levels at level 1-5 after immun to level 3 spells at level 6-10 etc up to lvl 7 spells, i dont think full magic immunity is good. The miscast magic is subtle ability.
The problem is still that Wizard Slayers cannot bypass wizard defenses, making them ironically one of the weakest slayers of wizards in the game. I don't think making them immune to level 7 spells is fair since all it will ruin a hostile Bard's life much more than a wizard's.
Hm i like the vanilla and the rebalancing mod too, but i always imagine the kit without magic resist. Instead gain complete mind magic immunity, charm, confusion, fear, feeblemind, sleep and activable spell turning per 5 levels( mind over magic) or spell level immunity eg: immune to 1-2 spell levels at level 1-5 after immun to level 3 spells at level 6-10 etc up to lvl 7 spells, i dont think full magic immunity is good. The miscast magic is subtle ability.
The problem is still that Wizard Slayers cannot bypass wizard defenses, making them ironically one of the weakest slayers of wizards in the game. I don't think making them immune to level 7 spells is fair since all it will ruin a hostile Bard's life much more than a wizard's.
None of the fighters can breach wizard directly with full buffs. The inquisitor cant dispel a mage with si:abjuration. Than give the wizard slayer onhit activable breach ability some per day. But it seems too strong with miscast magic. I reall hate, that only a mage can defeat a mage at medium to full power.
Unless, of course, a Wizard Slayer is using Fire Seeds. Then a level 7 Wizard Slayer can take down a level 30 lich almost single-handedly, even in SCS, without any form of kiting. All those mage defenses, including Protection from Magical Weapons, will be meaningless. No other class can do that. Not a Berserker, not an Inquisitor, not a mage, not a Shadowdancer; not anything.
I've done it before. Mages were never remotely as easy as they were when I had a Wizard Slayer in the party. It was the easiest no-reload run I've ever had.
You can object to the Fire Seed trick as cheesy, but honestly the same could be applied to a Berserker's immunities or an Inquisitor's Dispel Magic, both of which make just as much conceptual sense as a Wizard Slayer's spell failure.
None of the fighters can breach wizard directly with full buffs. The inquisitor cant dispel a mage with si:abjuration. Than give the wizard slayer onhit activable breach ability some per day. But it seems too strong with miscast magic. I reall hate, that only a mage can defeat a mage at medium to full power.
Wizard Slayer Rebalance mod almost does that : WS can strip one mage defense on hit with Shatter Magic, but, to activate this skill, Magic Resistance is set to zero. So with the mod, WS can either tank mage with their high MR and Miscast Magic, or strip them but be in more danger.
Of all the ideas thrown in this thread, it's the most balanced in my opinion. It adds a nice layer of utility to WS against mage, without being OP. It also stays in a fighter's kit feel, which is important in my opinion.
P.S. : I'm not implying that the original WS is not strong enough, but, for those who are looking for a different take on this kit, WSR is the way to go IMO.
I feel the complete opposite, specially if you're fighting the mage correctly but without being able to get past his defences with Breach. Unless it's a Lich. Then they just blast you away with a triple Skull Trap sequencer on their own face. I play with SCS, so it changes things a lot (vanilla mages are a joke anyway).
"specifically if you're fighting the mage correctly but without being able to get past his defenses"
What do you mean by "correctly"? From the sound of it you just stand still and facetank the mage until he runs out of spells. Not exactly my idea of a "wizard slayer" (and even then the mage with a good AI mod will just use lower resistance to ruin your MR chance based tanking anyway).
*sigh*
What I meant was that when you're fighting a Mage but have no way do damage him, he (the SCS mage) prefers to disable your party before blasting you into oblivion. I was talking about the duration of fights against mages and them being rather long sometimes is a plus for the Wizard Slayer IMO.
Comments
For sure. He is crippled enough without other magical trinkets.
Q2) Allow the use of weapons?
For sure, as long as it lost the bonus for Hit, Damage and SF.
Fighters are heavily reliant on gear and the game throws mountains of epic magic items at the party. If you pile up advantages on the WS to compensate the loss of equipment, at the end of the day you'll just end up with a beefed-up Monk. Simply replacing the item restriction with something less crippling, like limiting their weapon profs to Specialization or giving them a Cleric Hit Dice, would go a long way in redeeming them even without changing their advantages at all.
The miscast magic is subtle ability.
What do you mean by "correctly"? From the sound of it you just stand still and facetank the mage until he runs out of spells. Not exactly my idea of a "wizard slayer" (and even then the mage with a good AI mod will just use lower resistance to ruin your MR chance based tanking anyway). The problem is still that Wizard Slayers cannot bypass wizard defenses, making them ironically one of the weakest slayers of wizards in the game. I don't think making them immune to level 7 spells is fair since all it will ruin a hostile Bard's life much more than a wizard's.
None of the fighters can breach wizard directly with full buffs. The inquisitor cant dispel a mage with si:abjuration. Than give the wizard slayer onhit activable breach ability some per day. But it seems too strong with miscast magic. I reall hate, that only a mage can defeat a mage at medium to full power.
I've done it before. Mages were never remotely as easy as they were when I had a Wizard Slayer in the party. It was the easiest no-reload run I've ever had.
You can object to the Fire Seed trick as cheesy, but honestly the same could be applied to a Berserker's immunities or an Inquisitor's Dispel Magic, both of which make just as much conceptual sense as a Wizard Slayer's spell failure.
Of all the ideas thrown in this thread, it's the most balanced in my opinion. It adds a nice layer of utility to WS against mage, without being OP. It also stays in a fighter's kit feel, which is important in my opinion.
P.S. : I'm not implying that the original WS is not strong enough, but, for those who are looking for a different take on this kit, WSR is the way to go IMO.
What I meant was that when you're fighting a Mage but have no way do damage him, he (the SCS mage) prefers to disable your party before blasting you into oblivion. I was talking about the duration of fights against mages and them being rather long sometimes is a plus for the Wizard Slayer IMO.