For an expansion, ToB is pretty neat. Sure, it has its shortcomings, but I mean, if you compare it to TotSC for example, content-wise, it's got a lot of great content.
People are just treating ToB as if it should be as good as SoA, but they both differ in scope.
Now, of course, ToB is pretty linear, but the feeling of beeing an overpowered god-spawn is pretty well rendered, and it's that feeling of beeing an almighty power that sweeps competition that is oh so awesome.
Watcher's Keep was enough for me as content. I enjoyed it much more than main expansion. Actually the only thing i liked in the main story was the Wraith disguised as Gorion.
The tone is very different to other installments of the series. There are few if any sidequests, 95% of TOB is main story driven. I guess this is why people generally like it less, we like our freedom.
I personally think that a little chunk of realism should have been added to it, as in for example, with the Flaming Fist Enforcers(too weak considering they are a mercenary force that patrols the Sword Coast - when one single-digit level guy can kill 40 Flaming Fist officers without as much as a rest, there is a problem) and the other common soldiers in BG1. They all had regular weapons and armor. The Amnish guards in SoA were also a little bit powerful to be common guards since they can literally slaughter you early on, and the ToB guards are all god-spawn and far too well equipped.
In SoA and especially ToB, XP was extremely easy to come across since you would get in the thousands of XP for PICKING A LOCK. Personally, I would have wanted to see SoA go to the 16th level, then have a third installment in Amn dealing with the Cowled Wizards, then moving South through Murann, Zassespur, Castle Tethyr, Ithmong...
Regardless, I would have much rather had Trademeet in it's actual location in the Forgotten Realms setting, and had Murann and Esmellatan added into SoA.
ToB on the otherhand, had alot wrong with it, one of them that the map was upside down and your characters were actually going North instead of South through the railroaded hack and slash first person shooter.
You had a certain woman name Melissan who was sort of rude to you at the start, but then warmed up to you very quickly, immediate red flags on my part.
Every one of the five could have had comprehensive campaigns built to eliminate them and make them memorable, I also would have loved to see the supposed "titanic clashing armies", rather then go in and beat up on people that have already spent their resources killing eachother.
A different end boss would have been better too, like an actual Bhaal, instead of the whole "I somehow clipped a bhaalspawn soul to my own so that I could ascend and become Bhaal when I myself am not related in an way shape or form to Bhaal beyond being a priestess who refused to raise the only power I fully believe in which was Bhaal."
There is also a part of the plot that I do not understand:(I haven't played in a LONG time so correct me if I'm wrong) Somehow your character gets blamed for the fall of Saradush, when you have 6 people including yourself. Everyone knew that Saradush was under siege by Fire Giants, yet for some reason the Tethyrian guards are looking for you instead of Yaga Shura who they would not know is dead especially since the Tehyrian guards have no reason to even know of your existence in the area or your lineage. Another flaw in the blaming the Charname part of that, how can you expect 6 people to brutally slaughter a city, and smash holes in the walls at the same time?
I hated Cespenar - I didn't find him funny or cute, just really irritating.
Hopefully, the new Cespanar has a menu for item upgrade. I am so sick of pressing enter a zillion times just to find that I am missing a rogue stone for a weapon upgrade.
ive always thought TOB was weakest due to its story elements. not to mention the main antagonist is by far the worst in the series and the epic final boss fight is also completely lame
I really loved ToB the first time (even the second time).
- Watcher's Keep still is my favourite part of the whole saga. Even if I don't always complete ToB these days I'll always do WK. - I loved the new abilities and spells, the items are a bit over the top (everything is so good that nothing stands out). - The battles are epic (final battle is a bit of a let down, Mel is easy and beating her four times was tiresome). - I quite like the story - even if there are plot holes ToB is how I imagined the saga to finish with all the Bhaalspawn fighting to take Bhaal's place. - Sarevok was a great NPC.
The trouble is that ToB is pretty much the same every time. One of the best things about SoA is the replay value, but ToB doesn't offer much of this.
I had mixed feelings about the pocket plane. I like how it allows you to explore different figments of Charname's past and mysterious lineage, but the Solar's presence was entirely too much deus ex machina. After two and a half games worth of content worth of making choices, I felt myself resenting the Solar taking the wheel from me and determining the plot and function of my pocket plane. The pocket plane would have been much more intimidating and interesting if we were allowed to explore it unguided instead of the scripted moments produced by the Solar. On the other hand, I did enjoy the cinematic experience the devs were going for at the time, but it is still a striking change of pace for the series.
I enjoyed ToB a lot but it's not without its flaws in my opinion;
The Good: -I enjoyed the ridiculous powerlevel. I worked hard to get there, carving my way through 600+ Slaves to get to their master was good fun. -I enjoyed the pocket plane challenges. Delving deeper into what it means to be the child of a murdering deathgod has been sorely lacking. -I enjoyed the epilogues. Some of them were really touching, most of them just well executed, only a few were kind of 'meh'.
The Bad: -Fuckin' Mellissan. No idea why she's there, why she was included and why she's the final villain. She's as transparant as a cubic foot of air and more jarring than a knife in the kidneys. -Your power being overseen by a Solar, a being of pure light and Good, slumming it in the hells with the evil power. It should've been Jergal or some other neutral party. -Cespenar. Big Badass Bhaal had a quirky, fun little scamp of an imp as his butler? His addition makes as much sense as adding Goofy to Schindler's List. -Lack of time and space. The five superbadasses get added to a hitlist and taken out in a few hours, while each of them should have had a properly epic sendoff. Fight Abazigal in the ruins of the cities he's razed, fight Yaga-Shura surrounded by scores of regular soldiers and dozens of fire giants in the middle of a battlefield, go one-on-one with Balthazar who has achieved mental and physical perfection. Only Sendai seemed appropriate to me; deep, deep within her lair with numerous soldiers and slaves between her and the enemy, growing ever more paranoid as her doom approaches.
The "eh, I guess" -Lack of sidequests. A shame, considering the plenthora of tasks Charname got in BG1 and BG2. Understandable though. Considering you can summon pure elementals and the upper echelons of fiendish or angelic might, pull down the skies, disintegrate dragons and cut down the greatest beasts, wasting Charnames time with fetch quests and murder mysteries seems inappropriate. I don't mind it being a little lineair, there can't be a demon army or beholder cabal around every corner (mostly because you already checked those corners in BG2 and cleared them all out).
I ranted about ToB a bit a few months back with some suggestions on how to improve it (the ending, specificly). It doesn't deal with the larger problems (lack of size or pacing) but it deals with the most glaring issue: Mellissan the Halfwit-hearted http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/comment/122325/#Comment_122325
-Cespenar. Big Badass Bhaal had a quirky, fun little scamp of an imp as his butler? His addition makes as much sense as adding Goofy to Schindler's List.
Cespenar has a dark past. His quirky, fun self is actually just a cover for the far more nefarious creature that lies in wait >:D
Watcher's Keep was enough for me as content. I enjoyed it much more than main expansion. Actually the only thing i liked in the main story was the Wraith disguised as Gorion.
This. I wish BGEE had added another big dungeon like Watcher's Keep and Durlag's Tower, which is easily my two favorite areas in both of the games. Here's hoping there is a new similar dungeon like this in BG2EE.
I thought it was fantastic for what it was, but playing it just made me really wish they'd been able to make BG3. Maybe it goes a little too far in terms of insane XP/enemies/equipment, but that trend really started in BG2 for me.
I thought it was fantastic for what it was, but playing it just made me really wish they'd been able to make BG3. Maybe it goes a little too far in terms of insane XP/enemies/equipment, but that trend really started in BG2 for me.
My guess is that if the game had been a full BG3 rather than an expansion the XP rewards probably would have been toned down somewhat, since the game would have been a lot longer.
TOB Likes: Watcher's Keep. A fun dungeon romp! HLAs are nice BUT you get way too many of them. High Level Weapons and items are nice BUT you get way too many of them. And every nose-picking guard is equipped with +3 battle axes of DOOM. Once you have more than 6 +4 items, you can use that +5 dagger you picked up as a tooth pick because it loses all meaning.
Dislikes: Linear. Here's the plot - DO IT. Want to question why you are Melissan's errand boy? Too bad, just go do what she wants because that's the plot. Go here, do this, come back here. Then be *shocked* that you were betrayed - because that's the plot that the game designers wrote and that's they way it is going to be.
TOB is just boring after the relative freedom and interesting areas of SOA. I generally lose interest and end my games after Spellhold and running through Watchers keep.
For an expansion, ToB is pretty neat. Sure, it has its shortcomings, but I mean, if you compare it to TotSC for example, content-wise, it's got a lot of great content.
People are just treating ToB as if it should be as good as SoA, but they both differ in scope.
Now, of course, ToB is pretty linear, but the feeling of beeing an overpowered god-spawn is pretty well rendered, and it's that feeling of beeing an almighty power that sweeps competition that is oh so awesome.
For an expansion, ToB is pretty neat. Sure, it has its shortcomings, but I mean, if you compare it to TotSC for example, content-wise, it's got a lot of great content.
People are just treating ToB as if it should be as good as SoA, but they both differ in scope.
Now, of course, ToB is pretty linear, but the feeling of beeing an overpowered god-spawn is pretty well rendered, and it's that feeling of beeing an almighty power that sweeps competition that is oh so awesome.
That, and ToB has wonderful music, too.
The issue for me is that ToB really deserved to be as good as if not better than SoA. In a sense SoA was just an aside from the true Bhaalspawn story. The villain in SoA is really just a guy who wishes he was a Bhaalspawn himself. We have a massive adventure focused on this guy and his plans. He's only notable because he has god like power. But the real meat of this story is (or should have been) the conflicts between the Bhaalspawn themselves.
We get to see the larger Bhaalspawn conflict in ToB but in terms of scope and treatment, it ends up feeling rather like the aside. We get to meet a few of the most powerful Bhaalspawn and we just go on a killing spree to take them out. Then, once again, the most powerful foe ends up NOT being a Bhaalspawn at all. There is so much more that could have been done to highlight the plight of Bhaal's "score of mortal progeny" and see the "chaos that will sown in their passage". That is the point of the Bhaalspwn story, not Jon Irenicus.
But ToB is just too small in scope for it to live up to its potential.
I think Bio ran out of funds/time, so they just wrapped it up and launched it.
The good news is that Overhaul can keep expanding ToB to their heart's content.
Even small periodic updates and new content (as DLCs) would, over a period of months, accumulate into something epic. A quest here, a small adventure there, some NPCs, a new zone, etc. Eventually, after a couple of months, we could have a radically expanded and *much* larger ToB!
And who knows, maybe 2 years from now, it'll even rival SoA.
The overall lack of character development with your companions. Granted I've never romanced Viconia, and it sounds like there was some interesting stuff there, but even compared to BG1, the interaction with your companions was weak.
I've complained about this in another thread, but it was that the fights weren't so much geared as high level, they were just how many times can the bad guy spam the same instant death move over and over, or who can get off their time stop first.
Although it has plenty of weak points in the game and story, the Hordes of the Underdark expansion had my favorite high level battle. The battle for the keep in the underdark, at the end of the second chapter, was suitably epic. Huge waves of Duergar, Drow and other monsters coming at you. None of them were particularly difficult, but it was a test of pacing and endurance. You had to survive all the waves of monsters without any rest, and then make it through a big boss fight at the end of it. You needed to make sure you got through the onslaught with enough resources left to beat the bosses at the end. You feel suitably badass tearing through these waves of fairly tough monsters, but can still get your rear handed back to you if you don't pace yourself throughout the battle.
I think Bio ran out of funds/time, so they just wrapped it up and launched it.
The good news is that Overhaul can keep expanding ToB to their heart's content.
Even small periodic updates and new content (as DLCs) would, over a period of months, accumulate into something epic. A quest here, a small adventure there, some NPCs, a new zone, etc. Eventually, after a couple of months, we could have a radically expanded and *much* larger ToB!
And who knows, maybe 2 years from now, it'll even rival SoA.
Ah, one can dream...
This would be fantastic. There's a ton of potential here.
-Cespenar. Big Badass Bhaal had a quirky, fun little scamp of an imp as his butler? His addition makes as much sense as adding Goofy to Schindler's List.
Before Bhaal was a "big badass" he was the rakish, cunning Rogue of his adventuring party. I doubt becoming a god annihilated his sense of humor.
I think you are all projecting Serevoks personality onto bhaal. Who said he was this big badass with no sense of humor? No one. Who said he had a sense of humor? No one, but cespenar implied it. I think you need to stop projecting your preconceived images of personality onto bhaal, like have you even met him? Exactly. So don't judge.
Comments
People are just treating ToB as if it should be as good as SoA, but they both differ in scope.
Now, of course, ToB is pretty linear, but the feeling of beeing an overpowered god-spawn is pretty well rendered, and it's that feeling of beeing an almighty power that sweeps competition that is oh so awesome.
That, and ToB has wonderful music, too.
Actually the only thing i liked in the main story was the Wraith disguised as Gorion.
In SoA and especially ToB, XP was extremely easy to come across since you would get in the thousands of XP for PICKING A LOCK. Personally, I would have wanted to see SoA go to the 16th level, then have a third installment in Amn dealing with the Cowled Wizards, then moving South through Murann, Zassespur, Castle Tethyr, Ithmong...
Regardless, I would have much rather had Trademeet in it's actual location in the Forgotten Realms setting, and had Murann and Esmellatan added into SoA.
Example of the Map:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y46/8people/Blog/PossibleMap.jpg
ToB on the otherhand, had alot wrong with it, one of them that the map was upside down and your characters were actually going North instead of South through the railroaded hack and slash first person shooter.
You had a certain woman name Melissan who was sort of rude to you at the start, but then warmed up to you very quickly, immediate red flags on my part.
Every one of the five could have had comprehensive campaigns built to eliminate them and make them memorable, I also would have loved to see the supposed "titanic clashing armies", rather then go in and beat up on people that have already spent their resources killing eachother.
A different end boss would have been better too, like an actual Bhaal, instead of the whole "I somehow clipped a bhaalspawn soul to my own so that I could ascend and become Bhaal when I myself am not related in an way shape or form to Bhaal beyond being a priestess who refused to raise the only power I fully believe in which was Bhaal."
There is also a part of the plot that I do not understand:(I haven't played in a LONG time so correct me if I'm wrong)
Somehow your character gets blamed for the fall of Saradush, when you have 6 people including yourself. Everyone knew that Saradush was under siege by Fire Giants, yet for some reason the Tethyrian guards are looking for you instead of Yaga Shura who they would not know is dead especially since the Tehyrian guards have no reason to even know of your existence in the area or your lineage. Another flaw in the blaming the Charname part of that, how can you expect 6 people to brutally slaughter a city, and smash holes in the walls at the same time?
- Watcher's Keep still is my favourite part of the whole saga. Even if I don't always complete ToB these days I'll always do WK.
- I loved the new abilities and spells, the items are a bit over the top (everything is so good that nothing stands out).
- The battles are epic (final battle is a bit of a let down, Mel is easy and beating her four times was tiresome).
- I quite like the story - even if there are plot holes ToB is how I imagined the saga to finish with all the Bhaalspawn fighting to take Bhaal's place.
- Sarevok was a great NPC.
The trouble is that ToB is pretty much the same every time. One of the best things about SoA is the replay value, but ToB doesn't offer much of this.
The pocket plane would have been much more intimidating and interesting if we were allowed to explore it unguided instead of the scripted moments produced by the Solar.
On the other hand, I did enjoy the cinematic experience the devs were going for at the time, but it is still a striking change of pace for the series.
The Good:
-I enjoyed the ridiculous powerlevel. I worked hard to get there, carving my way through 600+ Slaves to get to their master was good fun.
-I enjoyed the pocket plane challenges. Delving deeper into what it means to be the child of a murdering deathgod has been sorely lacking.
-I enjoyed the epilogues. Some of them were really touching, most of them just well executed, only a few were kind of 'meh'.
The Bad:
-Fuckin' Mellissan. No idea why she's there, why she was included and why she's the final villain. She's as transparant as a cubic foot of air and more jarring than a knife in the kidneys.
-Your power being overseen by a Solar, a being of pure light and Good, slumming it in the hells with the evil power. It should've been Jergal or some other neutral party.
-Cespenar. Big Badass Bhaal had a quirky, fun little scamp of an imp as his butler? His addition makes as much sense as adding Goofy to Schindler's List.
-Lack of time and space. The five superbadasses get added to a hitlist and taken out in a few hours, while each of them should have had a properly epic sendoff. Fight Abazigal in the ruins of the cities he's razed, fight Yaga-Shura surrounded by scores of regular soldiers and dozens of fire giants in the middle of a battlefield, go one-on-one with Balthazar who has achieved mental and physical perfection. Only Sendai seemed appropriate to me; deep, deep within her lair with numerous soldiers and slaves between her and the enemy, growing ever more paranoid as her doom approaches.
The "eh, I guess"
-Lack of sidequests. A shame, considering the plenthora of tasks Charname got in BG1 and BG2. Understandable though. Considering you can summon pure elementals and the upper echelons of fiendish or angelic might, pull down the skies, disintegrate dragons and cut down the greatest beasts, wasting Charnames time with fetch quests and murder mysteries seems inappropriate. I don't mind it being a little lineair, there can't be a demon army or beholder cabal around every corner (mostly because you already checked those corners in BG2 and cleared them all out).
I ranted about ToB a bit a few months back with some suggestions on how to improve it (the ending, specificly). It doesn't deal with the larger problems (lack of size or pacing) but it deals with the most glaring issue: Mellissan the Halfwit-hearted
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/comment/122325/#Comment_122325
This. I wish BGEE had added another big dungeon like Watcher's Keep and Durlag's Tower, which is easily my two favorite areas in both of the games. Here's hoping there is a new similar dungeon like this in BG2EE.
Likes:
Watcher's Keep. A fun dungeon romp!
HLAs are nice BUT you get way too many of them.
High Level Weapons and items are nice BUT you get way too many of them. And every nose-picking guard is equipped with +3 battle axes of DOOM. Once you have more than 6 +4 items, you can use that +5 dagger you picked up as a tooth pick because it loses all meaning.
Dislikes:
Linear. Here's the plot - DO IT. Want to question why you are Melissan's errand boy? Too bad, just go do what she wants because that's the plot. Go here, do this, come back here. Then be *shocked* that you were betrayed - because that's the plot that the game designers wrote and that's they way it is going to be.
TOB is just boring after the relative freedom and interesting areas of SOA. I generally lose interest and end my games after Spellhold and running through Watchers keep.
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/2256/remove-tob-from-bg2-ee/
We get to see the larger Bhaalspawn conflict in ToB but in terms of scope and treatment, it ends up feeling rather like the aside. We get to meet a few of the most powerful Bhaalspawn and we just go on a killing spree to take them out. Then, once again, the most powerful foe ends up NOT being a Bhaalspawn at all. There is so much more that could have been done to highlight the plight of Bhaal's "score of mortal progeny" and see the "chaos that will sown in their passage". That is the point of the Bhaalspwn story, not Jon Irenicus.
But ToB is just too small in scope for it to live up to its potential.
I think Bio ran out of funds/time, so they just wrapped it up and launched it.
The good news is that Overhaul can keep expanding ToB to their heart's content.
Even small periodic updates and new content (as DLCs) would, over a period of months, accumulate into something epic. A quest here, a small adventure there, some NPCs, a new zone, etc. Eventually, after a couple of months, we could have a radically expanded and *much* larger ToB!
And who knows, maybe 2 years from now, it'll even rival SoA.
Ah, one can dream...
I've complained about this in another thread, but it was that the fights weren't so much geared as high level, they were just how many times can the bad guy spam the same instant death move over and over, or who can get off their time stop first.
Although it has plenty of weak points in the game and story, the Hordes of the Underdark expansion had my favorite high level battle. The battle for the keep in the underdark, at the end of the second chapter, was suitably epic. Huge waves of Duergar, Drow and other monsters coming at you. None of them were particularly difficult, but it was a test of pacing and endurance. You had to survive all the waves of monsters without any rest, and then make it through a big boss fight at the end of it. You needed to make sure you got through the onslaught with enough resources left to beat the bosses at the end. You feel suitably badass tearing through these waves of fairly tough monsters, but can still get your rear handed back to you if you don't pace yourself throughout the battle.
:-)