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Why I am unhappy with Hexxat *spoiler*

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  • EmmiEmmi Member Posts: 77
    To the whole "vampire-thing", I can only say that Baldur's Gate 2 portrays even a very powerful vampire like Bodhi as falling victim to the somewhat animalistic instincts of her kind (see: the whole hunt in spellhold instead of just killing Charname and his party as Irenicus probably intended her to do). Hexxat seems a bit too collected, so far (I haven't got through the whole game yet, so maybe there's more of that to come, idk yet). Also, the complete lack of level-drain with Hexxat seems rather odd, after seeing EVERY vampire in the game doing just that. Why would she choose not to? Doesn't really make sense to me.
    I think, so far, Hexxat isn't as bad as some comments here make her out to be, her character would just fit a human or elf or whatever better than a real vampire.

    All that is another reason why I would prefer to have a Clara DLC and take her along, especially with my chaotic neutral assassin. Ok, she could take Hexxat with her just out of curiousity after witnessing her killing Clara, but she still would probably just kill the vampire that trys to kill one of her party members and not even letting it come to the dilemma of what to do with Hexxat.
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    My point was not that vampires weren't monsters, only that they were not bloodhtirsty berserkers. Drinking blood and being able to punch through peoples' sternums with your bare hands does not a berserker make. You could argue this same "veneer of nobility" about humans, as well. Doesn't mean it holds water just because there's a few vampires/humans with murderboners.


    But all that's irrelevant. Hexxat is a BG2 vamp, and, as such, she should conform to the BG2 lore, in which vamps are portrayed as cunning, deadly, merciless, bloodthirsty predators. That's my whole gripe with Hexx - she's none of these things.

    The only BG2 vampire we genuinely get that impression of is Bodhi, who cares for nothing but hunting and fighting. That's an aspect of HER character, not necessarily all vamires. In fact, most of her underlings are more on the manipulation and debauchery side of things. They attack you not because you're full of blood and that just plain drives them loco, but because you're in their house breaking and stealing all their stuff.

    Hexxat would be less interesting if she were exactly like Bodhi. She despises her vampiric nature and thinks of it as a curse, so it wouldn't make much sense for her to revel in the bloodshed it entails.
  • CoM_SolaufeinCoM_Solaufein Member Posts: 2,607
    This is my opinion and I'm not speaking for the people who made Hexxat. She was probably made "weaker" compared to the other vampires because on the other spectrum, people would complain that she is too powerful, an overkill character that kills others in a few hits or level drains powerful foes in no time. So there has to be a balance some where to appease everyone.
    I know of two vampire mods and people think of them as overkill characters, even though they are following into the steps of the game's version of a true vampire.
    EmmiJuliusBorisovjackjack
  • EmmiEmmi Member Posts: 77

    This is my opinion and I'm not speaking for the people who made Hexxat. She was probably made "weaker" compared to the other vampires because on the other spectrum, people would complain that she is too powerful, an overkill character that kills others in a few hits or level drains powerful foes in no time. So there has to be a balance some where to appease everyone.
    I know of two vampire mods and people think of them as overkill characters, even though they are following into the steps of the game's version of a true vampire.

    Pretty sure that's it, yeah, but still, making a vampire NPC in the first place is a bit of a questionable choice, imo. But having made it, I think Hexxat is pretty well done. Still would prefer Clara though. Especially after all the promotion of "Hexxat", which actually only showed Clara. What can I say, I guess I'm just a simple minded player who was looking forward to Clara/Hexxat, not a vampire that was weakened on purpose. Clara's voice acting made me want to explore her even further. As someone else already stated... the pauses. The dazed expression. And then the desperate plea to "let [her] live" right before she just... dies. Feels like something is missing.
  • TvrtkoSvrdlarTvrtkoSvrdlar Member Posts: 353
    @Schneidend
    Dude, Hexx is as bland as toast. I get that you like the way they tonded her down, but, personally, I think she's just too mundane and uninteresting. She's fighting the likes of Edwin, Viconia, Korgan, and Sarevok for a slot on the party roster - there's no way I'm dumping any of them for her.

    There's really nothing about her that makes me want to take her along except the novelty of her quest chain. That's it. Once I'm done, I doubt I'll ever pick her up again. She's like the most forgettable, dismissable character out there. The only thing I like about her is her portrait.

    At least Yoshimo had style. His quips were amazing, and I loved his little one-liners where he talks about tourists liking his battlecry and whatnot. The dude was pure gold. Damnit, even Nalia has more personality than Hexxat. I don't know, I'm really disappointed. I was expecting a dark and interesting assassin with a gripping quest chain (assassinations, political maneuverings, extortion, etc.), but I got a boring, crippled, pseudo-vampire neophyte with no charm and even less wit.

    She could've been so much better :(
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    edited November 2013
    @TvrtkoSvrdlar
    Well, that's just, like, your opinion...man.

    I think she's great. She masterminded her own resurrection by remote controlling a thrall, is a prisoner of circumstance after once being a simple if talented treasure hunter, and she is dangerous in an understated way. Hexxat doesn't need to be a boisterous murderer to be cool, she knows she could snap most anybody's neck with a flick of her wrist, and I think that comes across in her dialogue rather than an outright statement a la Bodhi's Most Dangerous Game bit or Valen's constant professing of badassitude.

    Yoshimo has style (and I'd love to have a group with Yoshimo as a permanent addition if Irenicus didn't have other plans in mind), but that's because he's the rakish rogue who wants to make a living and look and sound good doing it. Hexxat is a profiteer, as well, but one wrought with irrevocable misfortune who doesn't particularly care for theatrics. Writing one way or the other doesn't make one a bad character. You just don't like Hexxat, and that's fine and that's your opinion, but your wording implies that she's objectively written poorly, and that simply isn't true.
    AyiekieArcalian
  • AyiekieAyiekie Member Posts: 975


    I'm ok with people having a different opinion, as most arguments boil down to subjective bias in the end, but in this case, you're objectively wrong.

    1) You haven't said a single objective thing in your many long, long tracts about how vampires should be.

    2) Vampires aren't real and aren't objectively anything other than "not real".

    3) Your vampires sound boring as hell, in my subjective opinion.
    SchneidendArcalianjackjack
  • AyiekieAyiekie Member Posts: 975
    Wayniac said:

    What do you all think about this idea...

    The ward, when you try to cross it, says, "Only someone of a single-minded purpose could overcome this barrier."

    I think it would be interesting to allow your main character to pass through as well. Then, either Clara or Charname can meet the real Hexxat. When the dialogue spawns, if Clara went through, things progress like normal. If Charname went through, it spawns dialogue and Hexxat is angry and wants to know how you passed through. You can come back by saying something along the lines of your only purpose is to save Imoen or you seek only to kill the one who has done all these experiments to you. Is that not single-minded?

    Of course, this would piss off Hexxat and she would tell you that you'll have to do. A fight could then break out and once you have killed her, the spell over Clara is lifted.

    Thoughts?

    Doesn't work. If you have a single-minded purpose to save Imoen or kill Irenicus, then you would never be here in the first place, wandering around a random tomb that is related to neither of those goals at the behest of someone you just met.
    Schneidend
  • AyiekieAyiekie Member Posts: 975

    Not only do we not need more vampires in BG2, but we don't need one in our party, nor do we need a character who threatens to overshadow the protagonist with their exceptional uniqueness, which is something Hexxat dares to do in spades.

    That's silly. The protagonist is the child and heir to a fricking god. A vampire doesn't even come close to "overshadowing" that. What actually does overshadow that uniqueness is Imoen being the same thing, which I'm assuming you somehow managed to get over.

    SchneidendArcalian
  • LiamEslerLiamEsler Member Posts: 1,859
    I'd really suggest that people actually play Hexxat's storyline beyond Dragomir's Tomb before dismissing her, particularly through ToB. It might change your perspective a little :)
    EmmiSchneidendJuliusBorisovjackjack
  • EmmiEmmi Member Posts: 77
    Ayiekie said:

    Wayniac said:

    What do you all think about this idea...

    The ward, when you try to cross it, says, "Only someone of a single-minded purpose could overcome this barrier."

    I think it would be interesting to allow your main character to pass through as well. Then, either Clara or Charname can meet the real Hexxat. When the dialogue spawns, if Clara went through, things progress like normal. If Charname went through, it spawns dialogue and Hexxat is angry and wants to know how you passed through. You can come back by saying something along the lines of your only purpose is to save Imoen or you seek only to kill the one who has done all these experiments to you. Is that not single-minded?

    Of course, this would piss off Hexxat and she would tell you that you'll have to do. A fight could then break out and once you have killed her, the spell over Clara is lifted.

    Thoughts?

    Doesn't work. If you have a single-minded purpose to save Imoen or kill Irenicus, then you would never be here in the first place, wandering around a random tomb that is related to neither of those goals at the behest of someone you just met.
    One could argue to fulfill that single purpose of reaching Imoen, the PC needs treasure. Lots of it, in fact. And treasure is what's supposed to lie behind the barrier, as far as Hexxat made Charname believe (or tried to, at least).
    booinyoureyes
  • AyiekieAyiekie Member Posts: 975
    shawne said:


    Normally I'd agree, but there's a specific factor at work here: because Clara is tabula rasa, everyone's been filling in the blanks as they see fit, whether it makes sense or not. Which is what happens when you try to flesh out a stick figure - there's no way you can do it in such a way that the people who were clamoring for it in the first place are satisfied. In which case, why bother?

    By that argument, Hexxat should never have existed in the first place, since people were doing the same thing for her for months now.

  • EmmiEmmi Member Posts: 77
    LiamEsler said:

    I'd really suggest that people actually play Hexxat's storyline beyond Dragomir's Tomb before dismissing her, particularly through ToB. It might change your perspective a little :)

    Haha, I'm at it as we speak. Well, not ToB yet, unfortunately, but I definitly intend to see Hexxat's story through to the very end. If you read my previous comments on this topic, I'm not one of the people who really dislike her, I'd just like to see more of Clara, if I had the choice.
  • AyiekieAyiekie Member Posts: 975
    Seconded. I love Hexxat and I'm glad she's the default choice. I'd like to see an expansion on Clara, for the reasons I've explained earlier in the thread, but that is in no way to be taken an having a problem with Hexxat.
    Schneidendjankiel
  • butsambutsam Member Posts: 46
    So, I haven't gotten to that point yet, take this with a grain of salt...

    From what I have read about Hexxat, though, here is what annoys me. From a roleplaying stance, I understand Hexxat is Neutral Evil...as is Dorn. Dorn's backstory makes sense for a Neutral Evil character -- he was doing his thing, but got stabbed in the back by someone, and now was seeking revenge against those who betrayed him.

    On the other hand, my (limited) understanding of Hexxat's story is that this person murders a party member for reasons I don't really understand...and now you are going to ask the murderer to join your party? That seems to me like it would be totally counter to how Dorn would react if someone in his party were murdered...in fact, backstabbing is what got him to seek revenge in his backstory in the first place.

    I would think only Chaotic Evil characters would make the choice to have someone join the party who had just killed a party member in cold blood. Since a pure Thief is really missing from BG2 as it is, this seems to be an odd design choice for the developers to make. Don't get me wrong -- I am glad they add content...but I hope they consider patching in another option for those of us who wish to role play with a viable thief who is not Chaotic Evil in action (regardless of what the alignment says). That could relate to the Clara/Hexxat story or be someone else (even without much fleshing out)...but it seems to me one of the major promises of the BG2:EE was that you'd have a thief that wouldn't turn on you to fill in that gap, and from what I've heard, there could be a pretty big letdown for someone who didn't want to role play like a Chaotic Evil party...
    Akihiko
  • jankieljankiel Member Posts: 127
    22longZ said:

    Well, well, the discussion goes a way I didn't intent. It is not like I don't like Hexxat and I am also eager to see her content. As Emmi rightly pointed out this discussion should be around the idea of implementing Clara as a full fledged companion and not if Valen is better, Hexxat being a poor vampire etc. I hope the guys with the blue backround like @LiamEsler are at least open to that idea:-)

    I like this human! He understands!
    zupsky
  • AyiekieAyiekie Member Posts: 975
    edited November 2013
    butsam said:

    So, I haven't gotten to that point yet, take this with a grain of salt...

    Seriously? Play it out without preconceptions. Hexxat doesn't come off as chaotic evil at all, really.

    Edit: And Neutral/Lawful Evil parties can be quite believably roleplayed as taking a "Meh, what's done is done" attitude towards Clara, particularly when the benefit to doing so is assistance from a far more capable and powerful character.
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    @butsam
    It makes perfect sense when you see it yourself. Dorn hates betrayal, but I can't see why he would object to Hexxat's actions in this context.
  • TvrtkoSvrdlarTvrtkoSvrdlar Member Posts: 353
    edited November 2013
    @Schneidend
    Except she couldn't. She couldn't snap anyone's neck. She's not badass. She just isn't. I get it that you like her personality, but I'd be more scared of Nalia than I would be of Hexx. She's just too bland to elicit any kind of fear. It's actually quite humorous.

    @Ayiekie
    Again, reading comprehension is your friend. I'm bitching because Hexx doesn't FIT WITHIN THE CONFINES OF BG2 AND ITS OWN ITERATION OF VAMPIRES. What part of that didn't you understand? She'd be alright in Twilight or Masquerade, but she's abysmally out of place in BG2. She stands out like a sore thumb! Oh, you want a vampire companion? One with all the cool bells and whistles that other, non-playable vamps get? Well, too bad! You can't have one! Here, take this defanged reject instead! We've stripped her of everything that makes her a vampire, but she's still really cool, we promise! And not at all useless and less threatening than a plastic spoon!

    And I love it how instead of refuting any of my points, you simply generalize and declare them all invalid. I've backed up my opinion with sound reasoning, and the onus to disprove it is on you if you're set on declaring an opposing point (as you've done). And saying that "Vampires aren't real and aren't objectively anything other than "not real"" is idiotic to the extreme. BG2 has rules, and is built on certain lore - if we're talking about fictional creatures that don't exist in the real world, then we're using the guidelines set by the game itself to discuss them and their abilities, since they *appear* in said game and fall under its constraints. As far as vampires themselves, they're as real as they need to be because we're agreeing to certain frameworks that were put in place when we agreed to discuss said vampires in the world of Baldur's Gate 2. Why do I need to spell these things out for you? How old are you, 12?

    Btw, I'm sorry I hurt your feelings with my inconsiderate, argument-laced 'tracts'. I know logic can be a big meanie, and I feel terrible for expressing my opinion through objective reasoning. The internet is a big, scary place - one where mean people like myself have opinions differing from your own, and aren't afraid to express them. But that's alright, there's always the Twilight forum and its adjacent virtual hugbox where everyone's a big happy family and they all agree that vamps ought to sparkle and mope around all day while reciting poetry. Go team Edward, right? ;)

    @LiamEsler
    I'm taking her along because I want to see her quest chain. I doubt I'll ever pick her up after that. The more I play, the more disappointed I become. I could get over her relative lack of powers and usefulness, but I can't, for the life of me, come to terms with the fact that she's about as exciting as your average mook. There's just nothing about her that stands out. Nothing. She's not memorable in any way, shape, or form. It's like playing with another Nalia (at least Nalia had naivite as part of the character, which somewhat elevated her to Anomen-like levels of interest). Honestly, I feel like Hexxat is some random human just along for the ride. And don't even get me started on the coffin-in-a-bag-of-holding. That part's so convoluted it actually hurts.

    tl;dr: I dislike her very much :(
    Post edited by TvrtkoSvrdlar on
    imajasjamLoReN_LKSulla
  • ArcalianArcalian Member Posts: 359
    I got my evil thief, thank you Beamdog finally!

    So what's my problem?

    The quest to get her was a W#%^^%$^$^%$% aRRGH.

    It's a good thing I didn't overwrite some of my previous saves. At that point nobody had magical weapons except Yoshimo, and I didn't even have a full party! I went back, threw money away on plus 2 arrows for Yoshimo and Fakexxat, and picked up Anomen as a meat shield. Even then it took several reloads.

    If her subsequent quests are that hard or harder, I'm gonna have to unlock the cheat codes for BG2EE much sooner than expected or wanted. (With BG1EE, I didn't have to do that until werewolf island.)
  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,704
    edited November 2013
    LiamEsler said:

    I'd really suggest that people actually play Hexxat's storyline beyond Dragomir's Tomb before dismissing her, particularly through ToB. It might change your perspective a little :)

    That's an excelent suggestion to take. Atm i prefer valen over Hexxat. While i have nothing against Hexxat i really like valen and see her as an character with substance.

    Some people got a bit harsh with @TvrtkoSvrdlar, maybe because he was too much direct at his opinion, but being objective or subjective doesn't matter for an NPC taste, there's no right or wrong in terms of like or dislike an NPC script. No one has the right to impose to another which NPCs are nice and which aren't. (Edit: He provoked the reactions first and invoked the right/wrong of objective and subjective, i read that now).

    Valen is a cool character, totally unique in race and behavior until Hexxat launch and i have the strong belief that Valen was the inspiration NPC for the creation of Hexxat. While i prefered Valen's monstruous nature and harsh and direct actions, i have nothing against Hexxat reserved and cold calculated nature, vampires are above all inteligent and cunning creatures.

    My only complains are:

    1° - Why Hexxat doesn't have a level drain attack? If it's too overpowered at least an justify in the story should exist to reason why a vampire can't level drain. maybe it exist, i didn't played the game until ToB yet, but let's see with time what hexxat can acomplish in her script.

    2° - Why people do not interact with her? In Bodhi Enclave no one speak or aknowledge an vampire out of Bodhi's influence... Dafuq?! Temples doesn't recognize her and treat her with natural behavior... Valen was a lot more realistic about this stuff (except for the Temple of Talos or the priest of the Shauagins being mad at her, those priests wouldn't have anything against a vampire). I need more experience with her anyway to see if more points where she should be aknowledged are being skipped.

    However to end one thing is clear, Hexxat introduction is flawed. Flawed to the point an mindless character as Clara was able to make an more deep conection with the player than the true NPC itself. That's something to the devs take in account, i really think some changes in the initial encounter should be made.


    Suggestion to the Devs @LiamEster:

    From an total roleplay point of view, i think Hexxat isn't that stupid to lead an lawful good paladin to her crypt when she's weak and will awake from torpor. Some would say that lawful good characters wouldn't plunder a crypt? Well, my lawful good paladins ally themselfs with the shadow thiefs to rescue Imoen, why wouldn't they pillage an crypt to raise money to save a friend, what is more important, the property rights of the dead or the life of an innocent?

    Announce that the party would free an undead from prision to get rewarded would be more directly and fair approach than "find a tesaure". The "find a tesaure" justify sound to me as an poor script from the part of the devs, but one that can be improved.
  • TvrtkoSvrdlarTvrtkoSvrdlar Member Posts: 353
    edited November 2013
    Ayiekie said:

    Wayniac said:

    What do you all think about this idea...

    The ward, when you try to cross it, says, "Only someone of a single-minded purpose could overcome this barrier."

    I think it would be interesting to allow your main character to pass through as well. Then, either Clara or Charname can meet the real Hexxat. When the dialogue spawns, if Clara went through, things progress like normal. If Charname went through, it spawns dialogue and Hexxat is angry and wants to know how you passed through. You can come back by saying something along the lines of your only purpose is to save Imoen or you seek only to kill the one who has done all these experiments to you. Is that not single-minded?

    Of course, this would piss off Hexxat and she would tell you that you'll have to do. A fight could then break out and once you have killed her, the spell over Clara is lifted.

    Thoughts?

    Doesn't work. If you have a single-minded purpose to save Imoen or kill Irenicus, then you would never be here in the first place, wandering around a random tomb that is related to neither of those goals at the behest of someone you just met.
    Actually, it's directly related, and makes perfect sense.

    Charname needs gold (either to save Immy or ferret out Jon). Charname is promised a large amount of treasure by Clara. Charname follows Clara into the tomb, with the single-minded determination to get his/her grubby mitts on the loot. Charname comes upon the barrier, and forces his/her way through, knowing the treasure he/she desperately needs is on the other side.

    The current tomb romp and the search for bling is a direct extension of Charname's quest to save Immy or find Jon, as the gold found therein could be sufficient enough to pay the Shadow Thieves (of course it's not, but we're looking at the whole situation without our metagame glasses).

    There, problem solved.

    Wayniacbooinyoureyes
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190

    @Schneidend
    Except she couldn't. She couldn't snap anyone's neck. She's not badass. She just isn't. I get it that you like her personality, but I'd be more scared of Nalia than I would be of Hexx. She's just too bland to elicit any kind of fear. It's actually quite humorous.

    Eh, what? She has 20 Strength. That's superhuman. That's the strength score of a clay golem. Sarevok's (18/100 Strength) one-handed-windpipe-crush-slash-neck-snap from the BG1 intro would be child's play to her. She could probably put her fist through a brick wall with little effort.
    jackjack
  • AyiekieAyiekie Member Posts: 975

    @Schneidend
    Except she couldn't. She couldn't snap anyone's neck. She's not badass.

    She has twenty strength. She's stronger than any human being that has ever lived. You are objectively wrong (see, that's a proper use of the word).


    @Ayiekie
    Again, reading comprehension is your friend. I'm bitching because Hexx doesn't FIT WITHIN THE CONFINES OF BG2 AND ITS OWN ITERATION OF VAMPIRES.

    She's not the same type of vampire. Multiple types of vampires already exist in D&D, providing a precedent. Problem solved. (One could also argue that she's suppressing part of her vampiric nature.)

    Also, Twilight vampires are cooler than your lame vampires. I'm dead serious. In Twilight, they play vampire superpowered baseball, which was awesome and unironically far more entertaining than your "vampires are always ripping out throats and kill people for looking at them funny and all wear black trenchcoats and have SIX katanas" boring power fantasies.
  • WayniacWayniac Member Posts: 132
    Ayiekie said:

    Doesn't work. If you have a single-minded purpose to save Imoen or kill Irenicus, then you would never be here in the first place, wandering around a random tomb that is related to neither of those goals at the behest of someone you just met.

    I disagree. If your single-minded purpose is to save Imoen or kill Irenicus but you cannot do that until you raise enough money for the Shadow Thieves or you think Hexxat would make a good addition to the party that would allow you to do that, then it still works... just like @TvrtkoSvrdlar said.
    booinyoureyes
  • AyiekieAyiekie Member Posts: 975
    edited November 2013
    I don't really feel "single-minded focus" works that way, given that the person that does get through the barrier is a mind-controlled puppet who literally only has one purpose. But we can agree to disagree there, I suppose.

    Edit: Fun, probably ought to be bug-fixed fact: summoned creatures can also go through the barrier.
    jackjack
  • WayniacWayniac Member Posts: 132
    Ayiekie said:

    Also, Twilight vampires are cooler than your lame vampires.

    I'd be careful about whom you share that opinion with ;)
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    Wayniac said:


    I disagree. If your single-minded purpose is to save Imoen or kill Irenicus but you cannot do that until you raise enough money for the Shadow Thieves or you think Hexxat would make a good addition to the party that would allow you to do that, then it still works... just like @TvrtkoSvrdlar said.

    I think in order for this to qualify as single-minded for the purposes of a magical barrier, you would have to know where Spellhold is and just charge the place. For instance, if such a barrier were blocking your way into Spellhold directly, you could make that argument.
  • WayniacWayniac Member Posts: 132
    Ayiekie said:

    I don't really feel "single-minded focus" works that way, given that the person that does get through the barrier is a mind-controlled puppet who literally only has one purpose. But we can agree to disagree there, I suppose.

    Google defines it as such:

    sin·gle-mind·ed
    adjective
    1.
    having or concentrating on only one aim or purpose.
    "the single-minded pursuit of profit"

    So based on that definition, it can work with the main character.
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