Personally, I do not have any interest in Clara. While I understand the desire to get to know everyone and everything, and make everyone game-friends, and have more companions and choices, and what it means to bond with x or y character even if they are third-string, etc. etc. etc., the desire to have Clara as a full-party member and the interest in her is rather beyond me. I am very happy with Hexxat as is.
All that said, I would be quite fine with a Clara DLC. I am always pro-choices and roleplay opportunities, even if I may not utilize them. It'd make someone happy and I am not a person that rains on another's parade.
The ward, when you try to cross it, says, "Only someone of a single-minded purpose could overcome this barrier."
I think it would be interesting to allow your main character to pass through as well. Then, either Clara or Charname can meet the real Hexxat. When the dialogue spawns, if Clara went through, things progress like normal. If Charname went through, it spawns dialogue and Hexxat is angry and wants to know how you passed through. You can come back by saying something along the lines of your only purpose is to save Imoen or you seek only to kill the one who has done all these experiments to you. Is that not single-minded?
Of course, this would piss off Hexxat and she would tell you that you'll have to do. A fight could then break out and once you have killed her, the spell over Clara is lifted.
I'm ok with people having a different opinion, as most arguments boil down to subjective bias in the end, but in this case, you're objectively wrong.
Let's analyze a bit...
Hexx is a vampire. As a vampire, and a joinable PC no less, one would expect her to be able to pull her weight in fights. One would also expect her to come with a moderate number of powerful and unique abilities, since her vampiric status is what seperates and elevates her above all the other NPCs vying for that spot in your party. Hexx has a few weak, nonsensical abilities
There's nothing objective about it. Your ideas of what a vampire should be like doesn't necessarily match everyone else's. Esentially you seem to be getting upset that while being a very capable character, Hexxat isn't totally overpowered.
How many thieves do you have with 20 str and dex and insta-cast domination? If you can't think of any ways to use that to your advantage I would think it's because you're accustomed to the kind of cheese Valen provides where you can just send her in and level-drain everything to pieces without having to really consider anything.
Personality-wise, she's terrible. Valen was/is a caged animal whose actions speak louder than words.
Valen? She kills stuff. Disobeys you and outright *MURDERS* things in front of you. Not everyone's cup of tea, but you have to admit that girl has *SUBSTANCE*!
Her silence is more ominous for it, and fits perfectly into the silent, stealthy, unpredictable killer that a vampire ought to be.
Again nothing objective. You might as well say that a mod NPC like Saerileth has substance because of the way she takes control of your game and won't compromise about anything, but in my opinion that just comes down to cheap writing. In nature, any smart predator will choose its fights carefully and avoid battle altogether if it isn't necessary, because those who bulldoze in at the first perceived slight don't tend to last very long. And as Hexxat tells you, she's very particular about remaining alive.
If you see vampires as a kind of blood-drinking berserkers, then that's your view, but I don't agree with it.
You called Valen 'overpowered, blatant, and uncomprimising'. Fair enough, I agree. she's all of that. But those aspects are a part of her character, and make her what she is. Like you, I wouldn't tolerate such behavior from *all* of my partymembers, but Valen gets a free pass *because* she's all that, and more; she's UNIQUE. Her actions fit her character perfectly.
Well, I can certainly see that you feel strongly about Valen, and understand why you're disappointed if you had expected a souped-up version of Valen from this, but like I mentioned above I don't agree with that view at all. Hexxat comes off as a believable character and balanced party member to me, whereas Valen is more of a powergamer wet-dream without any character depth. You're probably not alone either, I recall several threads akin to "I hope Hexxat is a coldhearted ruthless b!tch lol", but personally I've never found that kind of writing interesting.
If you compare Hexxat and Valen in terms of writing - that is, depth of plot and character - Valen comes off as a one-note joke. She has no development, no real growth. And without spoiling the outcome(s) of Hexxat's quest, let's just say she has all of that and then some.
But by all means, if you prefer Valen, go with Valen. Just don't make factually incorrect statements and then call them objective facts.
I haven't read the whole thread, and just want to throw in my two cents for what they may be worth.
I've just left Dragomir's Tomb with Hexxat in tow. And all I can say is: super contrived. Such a contrived, and overly 'original' character. I'm really not that thrilled about her and won't take her along on this playthrough, nor any other I suspect. Not only do we not need more vampires in BG2, but we don't need one in our party, nor do we need a character who threatens to overshadow the protagonist with their exceptional uniqueness, which is something Hexxat dares to do in spades. I like the other NPCs, and have no resentment for any of the additional content of BGEE, but this doesn't bode well. I agree with the original post insofar as I would have liked some twist on the original Hexxat that joins you, but this other Hexxat... I don't even like knowing she is part of the BG2 world.
The ward, when you try to cross it, says, "Only someone of a single-minded purpose could overcome this barrier."
I think it would be interesting to allow your main character to pass through as well. Then, either Clara or Charname can meet the real Hexxat. When the dialogue spawns, if Clara went through, things progress like normal. If Charname went through, it spawns dialogue and Hexxat is angry and wants to know how you passed through. You can come back by saying something along the lines of your only purpose is to save Imoen or you seek only to kill the one who has done all these experiments to you. Is that not single-minded?
Of course, this would piss off Hexxat and she would tell you that you'll have to do. A fight could then break out and once you have killed her, the spell over Clara is lifted.
Thoughts?
I know I quoted myself, but I'm gonna piggy-back on it.
OR what if you had the option somehow of having Clara "turned" instead of killed. You can then get her in your party as a vampire and still use the cloak you find. Her stats would get boosted when she becomes turned, but they would obviously fall again while wearing the cloak. In fact, I think it would be interesting if her stats were boosted to what the cloak takes away, so when one wears the cloak, it is like it returns them to their human state while in the daylight.
If I understand your point correctly shawne you are on the same side like Purudaya (devil's advocate :-)). You claim that Clara's death has some narrative value that would be lost if the player has the chance to save Clara. While I already made a statement about that on page no. 2 I would like to show you why I think this is not the case this time. Purudaya rightly pointed out that the missing option to interfere in the abduction of Imoen or the death of Yoshimo are good because it serves a purpose. But there are two mayor concerns I have to compare Clara's death with the death of Yoshimo or the abduction of Imoen:
1. The game offers you redemption. While you actually save Imoen from the cowled wizards,you also are able to bring Yoshimo's heart to a priest of Lathander. If I wouldn't be able to this kind of redemption I would be unhappy as well (as most of us would likely be). The death of Clara doesn't offer anything redeeming. One of your companions dies. That's it. I find it hard to believe that this doesn't leave a bitter taste for those who are at least in someway emotionally linked to there companions.
2. The death of Yoshimo serves the purpose of bringing Irenicus "over" as the main evil antagonist (Yosihimo's death is just one tool for achieving that). The abduction of Imoen serves the purpose of bringing the cowled wizards as powerfull mysterious organisation "over". The cowled wizards then get toppled by Irenicus in the spellhold to bring Irenicus even more "over". All these examples of leaving the player no choice to interfere have the narrative purpose to simply feel anything put hatred for the antagonist. And that is amazingly well done. You now may argue that the death of Clara serves the purpose of bringing Hexxat as being evil "over". But the big and important difference is: you aren't suppose to dislike Hexxat. She is not Irenicus, your antagonist, but a future companion. Even thought she is evil, you are still supposed to like her. But since she kills a companion of your party I, and many others have already stated that as well, cannot help myself to despise her for killing Clara.
@Wayniac Nonono, sorry, but one of the main reasons I want Clara (and am actually using her currently) is because I specifically DON'T want a vampire in my party. I just want a simple, normal human thief girl. Simple, yes, but sometimes simple is nice I think.
@Wayniac Nonono, sorry, but one of the main reasons I want Clara (and am actually using her currently) is because I specifically DON'T want a vampire in my party. I just want a simple, normal human thief girl. Simple, yes, but sometimes simple is nice I think.
Cool... then let's just stick with my first suggestion? Hero can walk through and kill Hexxat to lift the curse?
1. The game offers you redemption. While you actually save Imoen from the cowled wizards,you also are able to bring Yoshimo's heart to a priest of Lathander. If I wouldn't be able to this kind of redemption I would be unhappy as well (as most of us would likely be). The death of Clara doesn't offer anything redeeming. One of your companions dies. That's it. I find it hard to believe that this doesn't leave a bitter taste for those who are at least in someway emotionally linked to there companions.
And my counterargument to that remains the same: how could you possibly be emotionally attached to someone who is, for all practical intents and purposes, a living doll? Literally the only things you ever learn about Clara are relayed to you by Hexxat herself, and I refer you again to the Red Letter Media Test (a useful barometer for evaluating characterization): can you tell me anything about her that doesn't involve either her appearance or her profession/role? If the answer is "no", it's because - to quote Gertrude Stein - there's no "there" there.
As for Yoshimo, I'll point out again that granting him rest is one thing; wanting him to physically return and rejoin the party led to the creation of at least two mods I know of which accomplished precisely that. Which... more power to the modders, truly, but if we're talking about the dedication of time and resources for the development of DLC characters, I'd just as soon see them fill actual gaps in the NPC pool (no dwarf/gnome women, no barbarians, etc.) than pursue a character who will ultimately end up disappointing a great number of people (because on this forum alone there are at least a dozen suggestions of all the things Clara could be ranging from a prostitute to an actress/bard to a Shadowdancer and who knows what else).
You now may argue that the death of Clara serves the purpose of bringing Hexxat as being evil "over". But the big and important difference is: you aren't suppose to dislike Hexxat. She is not Irenicus, your antagonist, but a future companion. Even thought she is evil, you are still supposed to like her. But since she kills a companion of your party I, and many others have already stated that as well, cannot help myself to despise her for killing Clara.
Ah, but your starting assumption is that evil characters wouldn't like the "real" Hexxat. In a party with Dorn, Korgan, Viconia and Edwin, no one would bat an eye at Clara's death (because, again, you can't form a meaningful relationship with her since she's not there). Sure, if you're a Lawful Good Paladin you'd be horrified... but I maintain that a Lawful Good Paladin wouldn't go raiding someone's tomb on the say-so of a thief who turns red when Detect Evil is cast. As matters stand, the evil NPCs actually develop some very interesting relationships with Hexxat as her story progresses (no spoilers, but you really want her and Korgan to spend some time together).
To be fair @shawne no matter what dlc companion they decide to implement, a great number of people will be disappointed. Such is the nature of the interwebs.
I think it would be cool if we could save Clara and keep her in the party, or at least just save her. If they didn't want to go through with adding new voice work and plot for Clara she could just say "I'm done with adventuring." after being rescued. That's a reasonable reaction given the ordeal she's been through, and it gives non-evil parties a more satisfying way to resolve her quest. I'm not going to make a big fuss if they leave things as they are; I just like more choices. I'm kind of annoyed that there was no way to save/revive Yoshimo either, but contract limitations prevent changing that.
I don't have any problem with Hexxat; she's an interesting option for an evil thief. Micromanaging the cloak can be kind of annoying. Maybe it should just automatically penalize her stats when in sunlight, and give her normal stats when out of it.
@shawne I'm not even sure that the argument is to necessarily keep Clara in the party as much as it is just to have some kind of closure or completeness if you are good. An option for Clara would be super nice, but if we can't have that, at the very least, I would prefer a small extra subquest that gets me something... anything... if I choose to kill Hexxat instead. Even if that something is just more experience as the result of a continued storyline. As it stands now, it is more along the lines of this:
Hero finds new companion named Hexxat (intro) Hexxat takes on a few challenges with hero (norming) Hexxat takes hero into a tomb (more development) Hero travels deep into the tomb and discovers the real Hexxat (what?! climax!) Clara peaces out because she is killed by Hexxat never to be seen again... Hexxat peaces out because she is killed by hero never to be seen again... Hero leaves tomb because there is nothing else to do wondering if anything will come of this......... ...and nothing does
To be fair @shawne no matter what dlc companion they decide to implement, a great number of people will be disappointed. Such is the nature of the interwebs.
Normally I'd agree, but there's a specific factor at work here: because Clara is tabula rasa, everyone's been filling in the blanks as they see fit, whether it makes sense or not. Which is what happens when you try to flesh out a stick figure - there's no way you can do it in such a way that the people who were clamoring for it in the first place are satisfied. In which case, why bother?
@Wayniac: The problem starts with that very first line - if your hero is Good, you shouldn't be trying to recruit Hexxat in the first place. I mean, have you looked at Dorn's very first quest in BG2? That's not something a Good character could ever justify - so Good characters stay away. It's the same principle with Hexxat: you know she's evil, you know she's trying to lure you into robbing someone's tomb. If you're Good, you say "no thanks" and walk away. If you're Evil, you don't particularly mind Clara's death (especially once you get to know Hexxat herself and see how much more useful she is).
@Wayniac: The problem starts with that very first line - if your hero is Good, you shouldn't be trying to recruit Hexxat in the first place. I mean, have you looked at Dorn's very first quest in BG2? That's not something a Good character could ever justify - so Good characters stay away. It's the same principle with Hexxat: you know she's evil, you know she's trying to lure you into robbing someone's tomb. If you're Good, you say "no thanks" and walk away. If you're Evil, you don't particularly mind Clara's death (especially once you get to know Hexxat herself and see how much more useful she is).
I guess I somewhat disagree. You can recruit very evil Viconia, the Drow Elf as a good character. Why? Because you are on a mission to rescue your kid sister and you see that Viconia can be useful. You, as a good character, already have to align with the Shadow Thieves and do stealing and robbing to gain entry to Spellhold. That isn't good, but the situation dictates that you take measures such as this.
So I don't see why everyone is stuck on the argument, "If you are good, you shouldn't be recruiting her anyway." If she could be useful for you and the hero thinks they stand a better chance at getting Imoen rescued because she is in the party, why shouldn't you recruit her?
And let's not forget. You can change Viconia's alignment over time (as well as Sarevok in ToB). So to say that good characters shouldn't be recruiting evil characters just doesn't make sense to me.
On your "how could you possibly be emotionally attached to someone who is, for all practical intents and purposes, a living doll?", my answer is simple: I can. You may not. But what now? I am simply saying I would like to save her. You don't mind her death it seems but this doesn't mean there shouldn't be an option to save her. I simply don't see why you are still opposing the idea of widening the options of roleplaying.
And for your own sake I would on your part not still claim that a good party wouldn't venture in dragomir's tomb. Many already pointed out, and if you keep all this meta-gaming aside, her quest is quite simple. You find a girl, she is under some spell, she wants you to help her and offers you some kind of treasure which you are looking for to save Imoen. Why shouldn't a good guy accept the quest? Because under her little portrait stand "neutral evil"? Your argument seams to be good charnames don't want Hexxat because she is evil. But who says Clara is evil? (Oh,and by the way, following your argument noone should be playing mixed parties. If I am good everyone in my party should be good, right?)
@Wayniac: Viconia doesn't require anything of you, though. Again, look at Dorn: he's incredibly powerful, and a Good character could certainly justify having a blackguard on the team for the greater good of rescuing Imoen and stopping Irenicus. Except that in order to recruit him, you have to help him carry out the tasks given to him by his patron. And there is no way - none - that a character who defines himself as Good could justify those tasks.
By the same token, Hexxat is asking you to defile a tomb in search of treasure. (Note that Edwin and Korgan make similar requests, but no Good character ever asks you to do such a thing.) It may not be as gruesome as Dorn's requirements, but it's still a factor that would warrant Good characters to reconsider (especially considering Nalia - whose quest is much more in line with what a Good PC would actually do - is standing not five feet away from Hexxat).
@Wayniac: Viconia doesn't require anything of you, though. Again, look at Dorn: he's incredibly powerful, and a Good character could certainly justify having a blackguard on the team for the greater good of rescuing Imoen and stopping Irenicus. Except that in order to recruit him, you have to help him carry out the tasks given to him by his patron. And there is no way - none - that a character who defines himself as Good could justify those tasks.
Well then I'd like to make an independent request that the devs give us a good option because as it stands now, an evil party can justify using all four new characters while a good party only gets to use two at most. The new content should be more balanced so everyone can enjoy it equally as much.
Also, Nalia sucks and there exists no good thief for good parties... except Yoshimo, and we all know what happens there.
@Wayniac: The problem starts with that very first line - if your hero is Good, you shouldn't be trying to recruit Hexxat in the first place. I mean, have you looked at Dorn's very first quest in BG2? That's not something a Good character could ever justify - so Good characters stay away. It's the same principle with Hexxat: you know she's evil, you know she's trying to lure you into robbing someone's tomb. If you're Good, you say "no thanks" and walk away. If you're Evil, you don't particularly mind Clara's death (especially once you get to know Hexxat herself and see how much more useful she is).
Mixed groups are the most fun due to interactions between characters of different worldpoint.
On another note I think the devs overdid on Hexxy. The recruitment quest and and the plot twist was fun but I couldnt get the idea of a vampire going with me. Hell I could have a blackguard and a Drow on the team but a vampire is overkill. My chaotic neutral assassin was not that happy with her company.
Just to be fair I would strongly recommend you shawne not to equalize saving Clara with being a lawfull good paladin. Because on that I already said you are right. A lawfull good paladin wouldn't defile a tomb and therefor wouldn't accept "fake" Hexxat as a companion. But there are so many more good and neutral charnames imagineable that would venture into the tomb and would like to save her. Why deny them a good outcome? Because you like Hexxat more? Well then the quest as it currently is is exactly the way you want it to be. Therefor the mere possibility of saving Clara shouldn't be of any importance to you. If Clara could be saved you could still let her die by Hexxat. It shouldn't be any of your concerns.
On the topic of Clara being a "blank slate" I'd have to disagree. I find her many times more compelling than the real Hexxat by virtue of the masterful voice-acting, the pauses, the tone, the struggle. Granted, I made the initial mistake of believing she was striving despite her fugue-state, not because of it, but the hoarse plea for her life at the end broke my heart all over again. Clara definitely hit upon some touchstones for me that understandably not everybody has.
I don't find Hexxat as emotionally compelling, but she is intellectually titillating as you learn to savor her kind of bent.
Also: the comparison to Samara/Morinth is superficial at best, since the player has much more access to Samara before her loyalty mission - you fight alongside her, you talk to her, you listen to her stories about her kids and her life as a justicar. When Morinth makes her offer, she's the unknown quantity, since literally the only things you know about her are what Samara told you (and if you stick with Samara, she later reveals that Morinth was lying/wrong about everything anyway).
I wasn't so much comparing Clara/Hexxat to Samara/Morinth as suggesting they COULD do something like Samara/Morinth. Perfect premise for a mod.
@TvrtkoSvrdlar I'm strongly inclined to disagree with you on Hexxat's power level. She's got higher Strength than Dorn, my PC, and Korgan. Strength is generally the only thing holding any non-Fighter Thief NPC back from being a backstabbing wrecking ball, and she has it in spades! Her Dexterity gives her some excellent AC and allows her to contribute with ranged combat even when using weapons with which she's not proficient. She also comes out of the box nearly maxed out in the most important Thief skills.
I'm not even going to bother with the accusations of blandness or lack of character. Besides the subjectivity of it, your definition of a lack of character is that Hexxat doesn't threaten to kill you and everything else as often as possible.
I haven't played through the Hexxat story but from what I've read it has intriguing possibilities. Hexxat herself is a very exclusive character. She's a vampire, lesbian, evil, and has several unique abilities and limitations. This makes her super niche but also very strongly characterised.
Clara could effectively be the exact opposite. She has been under domination for an extended period of time and therefore could have a compromised sense of self. She may be evil but this could be owing to her having to deal with difficult situations. Together these present an unusual opportunity for Clara to be moulded by the preferences of the player; alignment, sexual persuasion, evolved attributes and maybe even class could be changed.
Clara's story could start as her being very confused and trying to piece herself back together whilst remaining highly susceptible to the influence of the one who saved her. However through the story she grows, becomes more definite, and eventually starts imposing her new syncretic beliefs on you the way other NPCs do, perhaps even to the point of turning on you if she sees you betraying those principles (hell trials maybe?).
Hexxat and Clara, thematic opposites, mutually exclusive.
I'm not upset in the slightest. Honestly, I'm amused that you're ok with letting that subpar piece of weak-willed, boring-as-paint cannonfodder tag along with your party. My ideas about the pros/cons of vampirism in this debate stem directly from my understanding of the game and its own representation of said undead beasties. In BG2, vamps are powerful, they have level/ability drain, they're robust, resistant, resilient, and kick ass. Hexxat is none of those things. She's an abysmally weak character, both in stats and combat potency. Hence, an objective assessment of her. Read that again - she is *objectively* weak. Not because I say so, but because her stats and abilities are inferior in comparison to what her undead brothers and sisters roll with.
Also, you're the one who keeps bringing the argument back into the realm of subjectivity. Your entire post hinges on the fact that we should accept and like a companion presented to us as a vampire, even though said companion display none of the traits which characterizes vampires as presented and shown in BG2. Valen is a vampire - maybe an overpowered one, but still. Hexxat isn't. Not in the way she fights, not in the way she talks, not in the way she acts. Comparisons are subjective, but the bottom line isn't. Objectively, Hexxat doesn't make the cut because she deviates from the norm to such a large degree that one shouldn't even consider her to be a part of the group she professes her racial allegiance to.
You can reframe the vamp mythos all you want, but that doesn't mean you're right. In fact, you're not - a vampire that isn't borderline overpowered isn't a vampire at all - it's a supplicant or a neophyte, at best. That's just the way BG2 presented vampires; powerful, capable, deadly... Hexxat? Nope. As I said in my previous post, she's no better than a vanilla thief, which is unfortunate because she's one of the new PCs and players were expecting something unique and different. I love Dorn, Rasaad (even though he's weak as a kitten early on), and Neera; I dislike Hexxat. The former 3 all fit into the BG2 archetypes - Dorn is a powerful meleee fighter with a mean streak and a dark patron (all reflections of his Blackguard status), Rasaad is weak early on but incredibly strong later (like any other Monk in the series), and Neera is... well, Neera! Wild magic ftw! Of the 3 I've stated, Dorn is the only one who's blatantly overpowered from beginning to end - Rasaad and Neera are relatively weak for the majority of the game, and I have no problem with them because they FIT INTO THE GAME'S PREDETERMINED LORE.
Hexxat? Hexxat is *not* a vampire! At least not by BG2's standards.
I have no idea what IPs you enjoy immersing yourself in, but 90% of them *do* portray vampires as berserking, bloodsucking monsters. I don't usually hate on books, but Twilight has done irreparable damage to the vamp mythos. Nowadays, people want to turn undead monsters into clinically depressed punching bags. And that's fine, do as you like - but not in BG2, unless you're modding your own custom content! Hexxat *should* have been more Valen-esque, because that's how BG2 and D&D portray vamps. Look at Bodhi. Listen to her lines. Does that not sound like a blood-thirsty berserker to you?
Look, you can redefine the vampire mythos any way you want, and I've no problem with people adding their own little twists and trope inversions when they design their own unique IPs and write books/fanfic, but as far as BG2 is concerned, we already *know* what kinds of powers a vampire should have. You can flat-out state you want your vampires to dance in sunlight and sparkle, but, as far as BG2 is concerned, those things wouldn't be vampires.
And just FYI, I don't cheese my way through games. I love Valen because she's a wild little vixen with character, not because of her uber level-draining claws. If I wanted to cheese my way through BG2, I'd just whip up custom items in DLTCEP (and I wouldn't be playing with SCS installed, either). As it stands, I'm disappointed with Hexxat because she's so damn *MUNDANE*.
And her dialogue is cringe-worthy. If you honestly think it's 'mature', then I've got some bad news for you. While none of the new PCs possess revolutionary dialogue or philosophically and morally ubiquitous quests (not anywhere near PS:T's level, anyway), the lines they have are satisfactory, and, unlike Hexx, I don't cringe every time they open their little virtual mouths.
If you compare Hexxat and Valen in terms of writing - that is, depth of plot and character - Valen comes off as a one-note joke. She has no development, no real growth. And without spoiling the outcome(s) of Hexxat's quest, let's just say she has all of that and then some.
But by all means, if you prefer Valen, go with Valen. Just don't make factually incorrect statements and then call them objective facts.
Valen is a mod. Done by 1 dude. For free. Ages ago. For free. As in, costs 0 money.
Hexxat is part of a commercial game, created and iterated upon by an entire team over months.
Please tell me again how proud you are of the latter outclassing the former in the writing department.
And some reading comprehension would do you good; I never said Valen was written in an expert manner, nor that she has an epic quest chain. I merely stated that her *actions* gave her more character depth and 'feeling' than the entirety of Hexxat's tryhard lines and pathetic attempts at being dark and edgy.
And Hexxat's dialogues are laughable. As in, cringe-worthy.
In short, unlike the other 3 'new' PCs, she's a crappy character.
And I'm not hating on the devs, since I know how hard they work.
Companion-wise, only 1 strike out of 4 is still pretty damn good! :v
@TvrtkoSvrdlar Bram Stoker portrayed his vampire as a handsome noble who just so happened to be an evil overlord, dark ritualist, and drinker of blood. There's nothing "berserk" about him. Dracula is also the original pop fiction vampire, so... Then there's Underworld, where the vampires are noble warriors with strict hierarchies and codes and are firmly lodged in Lawful Evil/Neutral territory. Aside from their customary combat hisses, there's nothing berserk about them, either. They are the cold, precise, methodical killer to the werewolf's berserker charge. Magic: The Gathering has the plane of Innistrad, who are similar to the Underworld vampires in a more Victorian setting. They rule several city-states in Innistrad as the rightful nobility, cultivating the unwitting populace as a farmer does cattle. They see raging bloodlust as a weakness and the domain of the undisciplined, or recently-turned vampires.
I could also point to Anne Rice's vampire mythos, Vampire: The Masquerade, Trinity Blood, True Blood, and countless others where the majority of vampires are disinterested noble monsters and not savage berserkers.
I'm familiar with all the IPs you've mentioned, but you haven't been paying attention to the books if you think vamps are civilized nobles. They're *wannabes*. Pseudo-civilized monsters who play power games and mask their bloodthirsty nature beneath a superficial veneer of nobility and detachment.
Both Rice's and Masquerade's vamps are nothing more than monsters who hate the world around them and everything they've lost, yet can't bring themselves to end their lives, so they go on, trudging through immortality and committing gradually increasing acts of depravity in order to spark within themselves the dead, fragmented memories of the lives they once had.
They're junkies, and they get off on power and violence, because those are the things which still resonate with them. They're unfazed by death, disease, and the myriad of other afflictions which occupy the minds of mortals. Essentially, they're walking corpses desperately trying to feel alive, and this need to *feel* is what drives them to the atrocities they commit, both against humans and other vampires. Sure, some of them are less bloodthirsty than others, but, at some basic level, they're all rabid animals.
But all that's irrelevant. Hexxat is a BG2 vamp, and, as such, she should conform to the BG2 lore, in which vamps are portrayed as cunning, deadly, merciless, bloodthirsty predators. That's my whole gripe with Hexx - she's none of these things.
Well, that, and the fact she's terribly written :P
By the same token, Hexxat is asking you to defile a tomb in search of treasure. (Note that Edwin and Korgan make similar requests, but no Good character ever asks you to do such a thing.) It may not be as gruesome as Dorn's requirements, but it's still a factor that would warrant Good characters to reconsider (especially considering Nalia - whose quest is much more in line with what a Good PC would actually do - is standing not five feet away from Hexxat).
I don't really see why a neutral or chaotic good character would never venture into a tomb to help a girl that so obviously has some huge problems she won't, or rather, as it appears, can't talk about in more detail. My good aligned Charname would follow her out of a desire to help her. And what is breaking into a tomb of a long-dead guy compared to the wellbeing of an alive girl that asks for help? Not to mention the tomb in question contains a powerful undead warlord that could use some more killing. Given that motivation, it would only seem natural for my Charname to just stick with the killing of undead, not killing one just to free the other while essentially sacrificing the girl Charname originally intended to help.
And so we're back to having the option of saving Clara and after that, not just abandoning the disillusioned girl, but rather keeping her close to not only utilize her abilities as a thief, but also try to help her find her place in the world. Or, you know, just to make sure she doesn't get into some trouble with some other mystical forces again, after going through all the trouble to help her.
Most of the vampires in the BG games are spawn of Bodhi or likely to belong to that particular branch. It may be that different vampire lines have different effects on the behaviours of those infected, thereby justifying Hexxat's different abilities as she doesn't appear to be local.
Comments
All that said, I would be quite fine with a Clara DLC. I am always pro-choices and roleplay opportunities, even if I may not utilize them. It'd make someone happy and I am not a person that rains on another's parade.
The ward, when you try to cross it, says, "Only someone of a single-minded purpose could overcome this barrier."
I think it would be interesting to allow your main character to pass through as well. Then, either Clara or Charname can meet the real Hexxat. When the dialogue spawns, if Clara went through, things progress like normal. If Charname went through, it spawns dialogue and Hexxat is angry and wants to know how you passed through. You can come back by saying something along the lines of your only purpose is to save Imoen or you seek only to kill the one who has done all these experiments to you. Is that not single-minded?
Of course, this would piss off Hexxat and she would tell you that you'll have to do. A fight could then break out and once you have killed her, the spell over Clara is lifted.
Thoughts?
How many thieves do you have with 20 str and dex and insta-cast domination? If you can't think of any ways to use that to your advantage I would think it's because you're accustomed to the kind of cheese Valen provides where you can just send her in and level-drain everything to pieces without having to really consider anything. Again nothing objective. You might as well say that a mod NPC like Saerileth has substance because of the way she takes control of your game and won't compromise about anything, but in my opinion that just comes down to cheap writing. In nature, any smart predator will choose its fights carefully and avoid battle altogether if it isn't necessary, because those who bulldoze in at the first perceived slight don't tend to last very long. And as Hexxat tells you, she's very particular about remaining alive.
If you see vampires as a kind of blood-drinking berserkers, then that's your view, but I don't agree with it.
Well, I can certainly see that you feel strongly about Valen, and understand why you're disappointed if you had expected a souped-up version of Valen from this, but like I mentioned above I don't agree with that view at all. Hexxat comes off as a believable character and balanced party member to me, whereas Valen is more of a powergamer wet-dream without any character depth. You're probably not alone either, I recall several threads akin to "I hope Hexxat is a coldhearted ruthless b!tch lol", but personally I've never found that kind of writing interesting.
But by all means, if you prefer Valen, go with Valen. Just don't make factually incorrect statements and then call them objective facts.
I've just left Dragomir's Tomb with Hexxat in tow. And all I can say is: super contrived. Such a contrived, and overly 'original' character. I'm really not that thrilled about her and won't take her along on this playthrough, nor any other I suspect. Not only do we not need more vampires in BG2, but we don't need one in our party, nor do we need a character who threatens to overshadow the protagonist with their exceptional uniqueness, which is something Hexxat dares to do in spades. I like the other NPCs, and have no resentment for any of the additional content of BGEE, but this doesn't bode well. I agree with the original post insofar as I would have liked some twist on the original Hexxat that joins you, but this other Hexxat... I don't even like knowing she is part of the BG2 world.
OR what if you had the option somehow of having Clara "turned" instead of killed. You can then get her in your party as a vampire and still use the cloak you find. Her stats would get boosted when she becomes turned, but they would obviously fall again while wearing the cloak. In fact, I think it would be interesting if her stats were boosted to what the cloak takes away, so when one wears the cloak, it is like it returns them to their human state while in the daylight.
1. The game offers you redemption. While you actually save Imoen from the cowled wizards,you also are able to bring Yoshimo's heart to a priest of Lathander. If I wouldn't be able to this kind of redemption I would be unhappy as well (as most of us would likely be). The death of Clara doesn't offer anything redeeming. One of your companions dies. That's it. I find it hard to believe that this doesn't leave a bitter taste for those who are at least in someway emotionally linked to there companions.
2. The death of Yoshimo serves the purpose of bringing Irenicus "over" as the main evil antagonist (Yosihimo's death is just one tool for achieving that). The abduction of Imoen serves the purpose of bringing the cowled wizards as powerfull mysterious organisation "over". The cowled wizards then get toppled by Irenicus in the spellhold to bring Irenicus even more "over". All these examples of leaving the player no choice to interfere have the narrative purpose to simply feel anything put hatred for the antagonist. And that is amazingly well done. You now may argue that the death of Clara serves the purpose of bringing Hexxat as being evil "over". But the big and important difference is: you aren't suppose to dislike Hexxat. She is not Irenicus, your antagonist, but a future companion. Even thought she is evil, you are still supposed to like her. But since she kills a companion of your party I, and many others have already stated that as well, cannot help myself to despise her for killing Clara.
As for Yoshimo, I'll point out again that granting him rest is one thing; wanting him to physically return and rejoin the party led to the creation of at least two mods I know of which accomplished precisely that. Which... more power to the modders, truly, but if we're talking about the dedication of time and resources for the development of DLC characters, I'd just as soon see them fill actual gaps in the NPC pool (no dwarf/gnome women, no barbarians, etc.) than pursue a character who will ultimately end up disappointing a great number of people (because on this forum alone there are at least a dozen suggestions of all the things Clara could be ranging from a prostitute to an actress/bard to a Shadowdancer and who knows what else). Ah, but your starting assumption is that evil characters wouldn't like the "real" Hexxat. In a party with Dorn, Korgan, Viconia and Edwin, no one would bat an eye at Clara's death (because, again, you can't form a meaningful relationship with her since she's not there). Sure, if you're a Lawful Good Paladin you'd be horrified... but I maintain that a Lawful Good Paladin wouldn't go raiding someone's tomb on the say-so of a thief who turns red when Detect Evil is cast. As matters stand, the evil NPCs actually develop some very interesting relationships with Hexxat as her story progresses (no spoilers, but you really want her and Korgan to spend some time together).
I don't have any problem with Hexxat; she's an interesting option for an evil thief. Micromanaging the cloak can be kind of annoying. Maybe it should just automatically penalize her stats when in sunlight, and give her normal stats when out of it.
I'm not even sure that the argument is to necessarily keep Clara in the party as much as it is just to have some kind of closure or completeness if you are good. An option for Clara would be super nice, but if we can't have that, at the very least, I would prefer a small extra subquest that gets me something... anything... if I choose to kill Hexxat instead. Even if that something is just more experience as the result of a continued storyline. As it stands now, it is more along the lines of this:
Hero finds new companion named Hexxat (intro)
Hexxat takes on a few challenges with hero (norming)
Hexxat takes hero into a tomb (more development)
Hero travels deep into the tomb and discovers the real Hexxat (what?! climax!)
Clara peaces out because she is killed by Hexxat never to be seen again...
Hexxat peaces out because she is killed by hero never to be seen again...
Hero leaves tomb because there is nothing else to do wondering if anything will come of this.........
...and nothing does
So I don't see why everyone is stuck on the argument, "If you are good, you shouldn't be recruiting her anyway." If she could be useful for you and the hero thinks they stand a better chance at getting Imoen rescued because she is in the party, why shouldn't you recruit her?
And let's not forget. You can change Viconia's alignment over time (as well as Sarevok in ToB). So to say that good characters shouldn't be recruiting evil characters just doesn't make sense to me.
And for your own sake I would on your part not still claim that a good party wouldn't venture in dragomir's tomb. Many already pointed out, and if you keep all this meta-gaming aside, her quest is quite simple. You find a girl, she is under some spell, she wants you to help her and offers you some kind of treasure which you are looking for to save Imoen. Why shouldn't a good guy accept the quest? Because under her little portrait stand "neutral evil"? Your argument seams to be good charnames don't want Hexxat because she is evil. But who says Clara is evil? (Oh,and by the way, following your argument noone should be playing mixed parties. If I am good everyone in my party should be good, right?)
By the same token, Hexxat is asking you to defile a tomb in search of treasure. (Note that Edwin and Korgan make similar requests, but no Good character ever asks you to do such a thing.) It may not be as gruesome as Dorn's requirements, but it's still a factor that would warrant Good characters to reconsider (especially considering Nalia - whose quest is much more in line with what a Good PC would actually do - is standing not five feet away from Hexxat).
Also, Nalia sucks and there exists no good thief for good parties... except Yoshimo, and we all know what happens there.
Mixed groups are the most fun due to interactions between characters of different worldpoint.
On another note I think the devs overdid on Hexxy. The recruitment quest and and the plot twist was fun but I couldnt get the idea of a vampire going with me. Hell I could have a blackguard and a Drow on the team but a vampire is overkill. My chaotic neutral assassin was not that happy with her company.
I don't find Hexxat as emotionally compelling, but she is intellectually titillating as you learn to savor her kind of bent.
@TvrtkoSvrdlar
I'm strongly inclined to disagree with you on Hexxat's power level. She's got higher Strength than Dorn, my PC, and Korgan. Strength is generally the only thing holding any non-Fighter Thief NPC back from being a backstabbing wrecking ball, and she has it in spades! Her Dexterity gives her some excellent AC and allows her to contribute with ranged combat even when using weapons with which she's not proficient. She also comes out of the box nearly maxed out in the most important Thief skills.
I'm not even going to bother with the accusations of blandness or lack of character. Besides the subjectivity of it, your definition of a lack of character is that Hexxat doesn't threaten to kill you and everything else as often as possible.
Clara could effectively be the exact opposite. She has been under domination for an extended period of time and therefore could have a compromised sense of self. She may be evil but this could be owing to her having to deal with difficult situations. Together these present an unusual opportunity for Clara to be moulded by the preferences of the player; alignment, sexual persuasion, evolved attributes and maybe even class could be changed.
Clara's story could start as her being very confused and trying to piece herself back together whilst remaining highly susceptible to the influence of the one who saved her. However through the story she grows, becomes more definite, and eventually starts imposing her new syncretic beliefs on you the way other NPCs do, perhaps even to the point of turning on you if she sees you betraying those principles (hell trials maybe?).
Hexxat and Clara, thematic opposites, mutually exclusive.
I'm not upset in the slightest. Honestly, I'm amused that you're ok with letting that subpar piece of weak-willed, boring-as-paint cannonfodder tag along with your party. My ideas about the pros/cons of vampirism in this debate stem directly from my understanding of the game and its own representation of said undead beasties. In BG2, vamps are powerful, they have level/ability drain, they're robust, resistant, resilient, and kick ass. Hexxat is none of those things. She's an abysmally weak character, both in stats and combat potency. Hence, an objective assessment of her. Read that again - she is *objectively* weak. Not because I say so, but because her stats and abilities are inferior in comparison to what her undead brothers and sisters roll with.
Also, you're the one who keeps bringing the argument back into the realm of subjectivity. Your entire post hinges on the fact that we should accept and like a companion presented to us as a vampire, even though said companion display none of the traits which characterizes vampires as presented and shown in BG2. Valen is a vampire - maybe an overpowered one, but still. Hexxat isn't. Not in the way she fights, not in the way she talks, not in the way she acts. Comparisons are subjective, but the bottom line isn't. Objectively, Hexxat doesn't make the cut because she deviates from the norm to such a large degree that one shouldn't even consider her to be a part of the group she professes her racial allegiance to.
You can reframe the vamp mythos all you want, but that doesn't mean you're right. In fact, you're not - a vampire that isn't borderline overpowered isn't a vampire at all - it's a supplicant or a neophyte, at best. That's just the way BG2 presented vampires; powerful, capable, deadly... Hexxat? Nope. As I said in my previous post, she's no better than a vanilla thief, which is unfortunate because she's one of the new PCs and players were expecting something unique and different. I love Dorn, Rasaad (even though he's weak as a kitten early on), and Neera; I dislike Hexxat. The former 3 all fit into the BG2 archetypes - Dorn is a powerful meleee fighter with a mean streak and a dark patron (all reflections of his Blackguard status), Rasaad is weak early on but incredibly strong later (like any other Monk in the series), and Neera is... well, Neera! Wild magic ftw! Of the 3 I've stated, Dorn is the only one who's blatantly overpowered from beginning to end - Rasaad and Neera are relatively weak for the majority of the game, and I have no problem with them because they FIT INTO THE GAME'S PREDETERMINED LORE.
Hexxat? Hexxat is *not* a vampire! At least not by BG2's standards.
I have no idea what IPs you enjoy immersing yourself in, but 90% of them *do* portray vampires as berserking, bloodsucking monsters. I don't usually hate on books, but Twilight has done irreparable damage to the vamp mythos. Nowadays, people want to turn undead monsters into clinically depressed punching bags. And that's fine, do as you like - but not in BG2, unless you're modding your own custom content! Hexxat *should* have been more Valen-esque, because that's how BG2 and D&D portray vamps. Look at Bodhi. Listen to her lines. Does that not sound like a blood-thirsty berserker to you?
Look, you can redefine the vampire mythos any way you want, and I've no problem with people adding their own little twists and trope inversions when they design their own unique IPs and write books/fanfic, but as far as BG2 is concerned, we already *know* what kinds of powers a vampire should have. You can flat-out state you want your vampires to dance in sunlight and sparkle, but, as far as BG2 is concerned, those things wouldn't be vampires.
And just FYI, I don't cheese my way through games. I love Valen because she's a wild little vixen with character, not because of her uber level-draining claws. If I wanted to cheese my way through BG2, I'd just whip up custom items in DLTCEP (and I wouldn't be playing with SCS installed, either). As it stands, I'm disappointed with Hexxat because she's so damn *MUNDANE*.
And her dialogue is cringe-worthy. If you honestly think it's 'mature', then I've got some bad news for you. While none of the new PCs possess revolutionary dialogue or philosophically and morally ubiquitous quests (not anywhere near PS:T's level, anyway), the lines they have are satisfactory, and, unlike Hexx, I don't cringe every time they open their little virtual mouths.
As always, you're entitled to your opinion.
But Hexxat isn't a BG2 vamp. She's not.
Bodhi is. Valen is. Hexxat isn't.
Prove me wrong! :P
Hexxat is part of a commercial game, created and iterated upon by an entire team over months.
Please tell me again how proud you are of the latter outclassing the former in the writing department.
And some reading comprehension would do you good; I never said Valen was written in an expert manner, nor that she has an epic quest chain. I merely stated that her *actions* gave her more character depth and 'feeling' than the entirety of Hexxat's tryhard lines and pathetic attempts at being dark and edgy.
And Hexxat's dialogues are laughable. As in, cringe-worthy.
In short, unlike the other 3 'new' PCs, she's a crappy character.
And I'm not hating on the devs, since I know how hard they work.
Companion-wise, only 1 strike out of 4 is still pretty damn good! :v
Bram Stoker portrayed his vampire as a handsome noble who just so happened to be an evil overlord, dark ritualist, and drinker of blood. There's nothing "berserk" about him. Dracula is also the original pop fiction vampire, so...
Then there's Underworld, where the vampires are noble warriors with strict hierarchies and codes and are firmly lodged in Lawful Evil/Neutral territory. Aside from their customary combat hisses, there's nothing berserk about them, either. They are the cold, precise, methodical killer to the werewolf's berserker charge.
Magic: The Gathering has the plane of Innistrad, who are similar to the Underworld vampires in a more Victorian setting. They rule several city-states in Innistrad as the rightful nobility, cultivating the unwitting populace as a farmer does cattle. They see raging bloodlust as a weakness and the domain of the undisciplined, or recently-turned vampires.
I could also point to Anne Rice's vampire mythos, Vampire: The Masquerade, Trinity Blood, True Blood, and countless others where the majority of vampires are disinterested noble monsters and not savage berserkers.
I'm familiar with all the IPs you've mentioned, but you haven't been paying attention to the books if you think vamps are civilized nobles. They're *wannabes*. Pseudo-civilized monsters who play power games and mask their bloodthirsty nature beneath a superficial veneer of nobility and detachment.
Both Rice's and Masquerade's vamps are nothing more than monsters who hate the world around them and everything they've lost, yet can't bring themselves to end their lives, so they go on, trudging through immortality and committing gradually increasing acts of depravity in order to spark within themselves the dead, fragmented memories of the lives they once had.
They're junkies, and they get off on power and violence, because those are the things which still resonate with them. They're unfazed by death, disease, and the myriad of other afflictions which occupy the minds of mortals. Essentially, they're walking corpses desperately trying to feel alive, and this need to *feel* is what drives them to the atrocities they commit, both against humans and other vampires. Sure, some of them are less bloodthirsty than others, but, at some basic level, they're all rabid animals.
But all that's irrelevant. Hexxat is a BG2 vamp, and, as such, she should conform to the BG2 lore, in which vamps are portrayed as cunning, deadly, merciless, bloodthirsty predators. That's my whole gripe with Hexx - she's none of these things.
Well, that, and the fact she's terribly written :P
And underpowered
And so we're back to having the option of saving Clara and after that, not just abandoning the disillusioned girl, but rather keeping her close to not only utilize her abilities as a thief, but also try to help her find her place in the world. Or, you know, just to make sure she doesn't get into some trouble with some other mystical forces again, after going through all the trouble to help her.