Honestly, in Baldur's Gate 1, Neera's way more evil than Viconia. Her special encounter in the city demonstrates that rather abruptly (and horrifyingly, if you didn't pay off the guy and consider just what exactly Neera did from an objective perspective - someone offered her shelter when she needed it, she robbed him blind and ran off in the middle of the night, and when he finds her again, admittedly in self-defence she murders him).
I loved that, mind, because Neera is cute and funny (opinions can and do vary on those attributes, of course), often eager to try and prove her worth to the group and undoubtedly being unfairly persecuted for her inborn powers. It's easy to assign virtue to her because of those traits - she's likable, so you want to think the best of her. But she doesn't actually deserve that. Neera is overweeningly arrogant, quick to jump to unwarranted conclusions (take some not-entirely-complimentary-but-not-insulting-either dialogue options while romancing her and you'll see plenty of examples of both), very very selfish, impatient, thoughtless and frequently ungrateful (not always, but frequently). She's hurt a lot of people in her backhistory, both intentionally and accidentally (and that's just the ones you know about!), but rarely spares a thought for anybody other than herself being the victim.
That's why I like her, because she's actually written like the chaotic neutral alignment she's supposed to be. She's not really evil, but she sure as hell isn't good. It's a fun, sometimes subtle touch they've used on the character, and I appreciated it quite a bit (and head-canon it as sometimes very awkward for my besotted LG Cavalier who desperately wants to ignore or explain away the problematic aspects of her personality).
(I am moderately concerned with her plotline so far in BGIIEE, as she's presented very unvarnishedly benevolent so far and that seems out of character... but I trust the writers based on their work in BGEE, and it's early yet as I'm both waiting for the patch and trying to finish up my BG1 evil playthrough so I can interact with Hexxat beyond chopping her to bits.)
Great voicework (though in BG2:EE he doesn't remark that moving to a patch of flowers will be even bloodier than I'd hope, which is a shame), badass fighter and over-the-top completely senselessly evil.
Considering Viconia's "more bitch than evil" and Edwin's "more asshole than evil" and Sarevok's "I used to be really evil but now I'm just the diet version, just one calorie of evil", having Dorn go all out, "balls to the walls, murdering every innocent he can get his hands on evil" is refreshing.
Refreshing? Nah it's just terrible writing proving that the writers at Beamdog don't understand why evil exists. If you observe any good literature, whether it be a novel, movie, or game, a worthwhile evil character is written in such a way that they are driven to do evil deeds for their own benefit, not for the gratuity of it. (15 Wisdom? Ain't no thang.) They have some form of a conscience, even if tiny, because in the real world, that is the case. Dorn has absolutely no conscience, no semblance of honor or restraint in any situation. Not only is that gratuitous, but it is also bad characterization, boring, totally inhuman and unrealistic. I had high hopes for Dorn, perhaps too high. It would seem though that Beamdog is incapable of analyzing human nature and understanding the existence of evil, and as such, they will never be able to write a realistic and relatable evil character.
TL;DR - Dorn is a product of bad fan-fiction writing.
You did not meet too many psychopaths I take it. In real life those characteristics exist, albeit rarely encountered.
Also, this is a game based on a fantasy setting, with a totally fictional alignment structure that has no links to real life whatsoever (what is 'alignment' anyway?), so no real issue for me. Dorn is badass like that. That being said, I prefer Hexxat's manipulative evilness to Dorn's psycho version.
Also, it was so sweet of her to shut off the Aerie romance for me! Seriously, I hate the "Yes/Emphatic Yes/HARSH" options, and having Neera help me through that was nice.
Refreshing? Nah it's just terrible writing proving that the writers at Beamdog don't understand why evil exists. If you observe any good literature, whether it be a novel, movie, or game, a worthwhile evil character is written in such a way that they are driven to do evil deeds for their own benefit, not for the gratuity of it. (15 Wisdom? Ain't no thang.) They have some form of a conscience, even if tiny, because in the real world, that is the case. Dorn has absolutely no conscience, no semblance of honor or restraint in any situation. Not only is that gratuitous, but it is also bad characterization, boring, totally inhuman and unrealistic. I had high hopes for Dorn, perhaps too high. It would seem though that Beamdog is incapable of analyzing human nature and understanding the existence of evil, and as such, they will never be able to write a realistic and relatable evil character.
TL;DR - Dorn is a product of bad fan-fiction writing.
@Quartz You're right, to a point. He may not be deep as the atlantic ocean (though I haven't progressed far enough into BG2 to really give a final verdict) but I don't always enjoy NPC's because of their immensely detailed and thought out psychologies. I enjoyed the Jaheira romance because it was fairly mature, deep and realistic. I enjoyed Minsc's character because he's a wacky huge guy with a hamster who talks about kicking the butts of stinking evil. I enjoyed Anomen (yes, you are not alone) because even though he's a total ass, he's possibly the most realisticly broken character in the bunch. Dorn's just as ridiculous as Minsc but fun in his own way. Dorn's slaughter-happy evil is not very realistic but I still enjoyed red-weddinging my way into his heart. He doesn't have to be a Shakespearean tragedy for that.
To each his own, of course. Just wanted to clarify my motivations.
You did not meet too many psychopaths I take it. In real life those characteristics exist, albeit rarely encountered.
Also, this is a game based on a fantasy setting, with a totally fictional alignment structure that has no links to real life whatsoever (what is 'alignment' anyway?), so no real issue for me. Dorn is badass like that. That being said, I prefer Hexxat's manipulative evilness to Dorn's psycho version.
Errr ... Baldur's Gate has a lot of tie-ins to the real world, dude.
I might like Dorn, but frankly whilst I could very much picture my Chaotic Neutral mage/thief cheerfully saying "Sure, so long as I get paid!" to ending the life of yet another paladin, especially if provoked (such as a certain racist Paladin stabbing his elf buddy , I cannot imagine them saying "Haha, yeah, let's bathe in Paladin blood and then swim around in blood and stuff."
Nor, in fact, can I picture said character, who merrily waltzed through Baldur's Gate with Dorn at their side suddenly saying "No! You are very evil! I will never help you and you are dumb!" either, which rapidly becomes the binary choice available. There may be greatly nuanced interactions on the other side of that recruitment chat, but all I can see this side is stupid good and stupid evil, even worse than Aerie's love talks (I like Aerie, but frankly "1: I'm a jerk who picks on emotionally damaged girls. 2: You suck Aerie. I also kick kittens. 3: I am not a cosmic jerk, so therefore am also 100% super sympathetic despite just having been tortured for a full year" some of the chats turn into is rather jarring).
Hexxat.... Meh, not interested in thieves this playthrough, so I doubt I'll see any of her story.
Baeloth: Amusing, and was worth a brief stint in the party, but I like my NPCs to have a little plot.
Rasaad is a likeable and decent guy, with a pleasantly tropey kung fu plot in BG1, and I'm looking forward to his BGII plotline, and my #2 favourite, I love monks - would love 'em more if I could multiclass them of course.
So yeah, it's got to be Neera. She's flawed, quirky, and a Wild Mage, which can pretty easily end up as quasi-sorcerers, except better, in both BG and BGII.
@Pantalion Having played through most of Aerie's romance, I have to vouch that there are certainly some "I understand your pain, but you need to grow up" lines in there. Those seem to come a little later though, and you're quite right that initially it's between those rather hilarious three examples you gave.
@Pantalion - did you actually try playing with Dorn in BG2? Because honestly, in terms of YOUR character not acting stupid evil, I found that to include pretty much all the best dialogue choices in the game. You can also pretty much restrain Dorn from any over-the-top violence while still not acting like a goody-goody, usually with a "Use some common sense, man"-type line. Also enormous amounts of snarkiness and eye-rolling.
Even in the recruitment chat, you can handily stop him from killing the wedding party and he doesn't put up any fuss about it. You can't stop him from waltzing in and ganking the cleric (well, you can't stop him without violence), but as a blackguard he literally has no choice in the matter and any companion of his from Bg1 would know that. I didn't think it was that bad, really (although obviously it'd be a deal-breaker for most non-evil characters). I might be forgetting something about the very initial dialogue bit, though.
@ayiekie you cannot even JOIN him without agreeing to the quest though. Who cares about being able to restrain him later? Only a lunatic PC would even get to that point.
I have dabbled with him over the months between now and posting that (though I'm currently off BG and focusing on more literary endeavours, so I do need to finish him up at some point), and things do get better after the first conversation, but to recruit him you pretty well have to say "We will wade through rivers of kitten blood! Ahahahahahaha", no "Well I do hate Paladins...." or even "So long as I'm extremely well paid!" just kitten blood and baby eating.
@ayiekie you cannot even JOIN him without agreeing to the quest though. Who cares about being able to restrain him later? Only a lunatic PC would even get to that point.
Well, a lunatic or someone who pragmatically values Dorn's valuable aid in combat over the life of some random cleric she's never met.
I have dabbled with him over the months between now and posting that (though I'm currently off BG and focusing on more literary endeavours, so I do need to finish him up at some point), and things do get better after the first conversation, but to recruit him you pretty well have to say "We will wade through rivers of kitten blood! Ahahahahahaha", no "Well I do hate Paladins...." or even "So long as I'm extremely well paid!" just kitten blood and baby eating.
Ah, that's it. That's why I wondered if it was just the initial bit to blame here, as it's been quite awhile since the beginning of my evil playthrough and I didn't recall exactly how you were introduced. Bit of a pity that puts people off, if so, since the rest of his plotline allows you to play things surprisingly smart.
Baeloth - I knew about the 3 NPC's but he was a total surprise - especially as I don't play evil very often. Great voice, funny, and a magic resistant sorcerer - what's not to like?
@Pantalion Having played through most of Aerie's romance, I have to vouch that there are certainly some "I understand your pain, but you need to grow up" lines in there. Those seem to come a little later though, and you're quite right that initially it's between those rather hilarious three examples you gave.
Take note though that there is one like that that can end the romance. It got me more than once... after she throws her little tantrum if you just say "I'm glad you're feeling better, let's carry on" or something like that, it's not good enough for her. You really have to go all out if you want to keep her.
@ayiekie you cannot even JOIN him without agreeing to the quest though. Who cares about being able to restrain him later? Only a lunatic PC would even get to that point.
Well, a lunatic or someone who pragmatically values Dorn's valuable aid in combat over the life of some random cleric she's never met.
In other words... a lunatic.
Maybe a psychopath is more descriptive. Legitimate for crazy evil characters, but that doesn't at all seem like what Pantalion described his characters
@shawne : That's good to hear, but how the bloody hell am I supposed to access this supposed depth of character if you can't justify having the guy in your party unless you're Chaotic Stupid? Literally the only way to pick him up is to say, "Yep let's kill this Paladin just because it sounds fun and your master commands it!" That pretty much restricts picking him up only with Chaotic Evil characters with a low Wisdom.
How is your failure of imagination the fault of the game? I don't have that problem: my character is Neutral Evil, which means - per the manual - "they have no compunctions about harming others to get what they want, but neither will they go out of their way to cause carnage or mayhem when they see no direct benefit to it."
In this case, the direct benefit (and the justification) is obvious:
1. Dorn would be a very useful member of my team. 2. He won't come with me until he finishes the mission Ur-Gothoz gave him. 3. I already know he's a blackguard, which means his powers are conditional upon his obedience to his patron. 4. I'm not crazy about paladins anyway. 5. If I have to spill some blood to get what I want, that's fine - wouldn't be the first time.
There, you see? Nothing Chaotic Stupid about that thought process. Again, this really sounds like you didn't even bother going past Dorn's first quest, which means your opinion on this subject is very poorly-informed. Which doesn't mean you're not still entitled to it, but why continue this discussion if you're going to insist on sticking to your partial knowledge?
Well, apart from thinking a generally more polite response would have been more appropriate, I'd disagree with a couple parts of this post.
For your point #1: Is Dorn more of a help than the entire Order of the Radiant Heart wanting to kill you is a hindrance? One Blackguard as an ally as opposed to and entire Order of paladins as an enemy? I'll take the army, thank you very much. I think it is just stupid to take those odds, regardless of alignment. The one exception in which a non-idiotic character would agree to help Dorn is if he actually *enjoys* killing innocents (which may well be the case for your character, but that would be more Chaotic Evil according to the NE description you provided)
Also I think a lot of people are ignoring the fact that when you first meet Dorn you cannot take him unless you agree to his task. At that point you know he is a strong fighter, but is taking on one of the three most powerful organizations in Athkatla (as far as I know). In order to accept this task you either have to: a. love killing paladins/kicking puppies/being a ginger or b. be really dumb and think that one half-orc is more valuable an ally against an *evil* mage in Athkatla than an organization full of warriors that's entire purpose is to fight... evil mages... in Athkatla.
I agree it makes sense for a chaotic evil or semi-insane character (which I can see some people enjoying), but to act as though its outlandish for someone to suggest it is a "stupid" act is just wrong.
Maybe a psychopath is more descriptive. Legitimate for crazy evil characters, but that doesn't at all seem like what Pantalion described his characters
Not really. I knew Dorn and his capabilities from BG1, where he is far and away the most powerful melee character available. That his aid would be of great benefit on my quest is without question, and his loyalty to me is already proven.
Killing a random cleric is a bothersome inconvenience, but there is no reason to believe it's more than that. Even if the order found out who did it (which is one reason to let him kill all the witnesses), dodging them is not any harder than half a dozen other things my charname routinely does before breakfast each morning. Well worth it to gain the aid of such a useful and reliable ally. Even if she did have to gently rebuff his offer to wrestle naked later. And then less gently until he got the point and simmered down.
@Pantalion Having played through most of Aerie's romance, I have to vouch that there are certainly some "I understand your pain, but you need to grow up" lines in there. Those seem to come a little later though, and you're quite right that initially it's between those rather hilarious three examples you gave.
Take note though that there is one like that that can end the romance. It got me more than once... after she throws her little tantrum if you just say "I'm glad you're feeling better, let's carry on" or something like that, it's not good enough for her. You really have to go all out if you want to keep her.
To clarify, you don't lose Aerie at all, just her romance although it's not clear. Unless you say you have feelings for her she obviously just assumes you've just been nice, thanks you for the encouragement, and now she's out of her rut just carries on helping you as normal.
In most cases, having lots of different responses only gives the illusion of choice. Like with most of Aerie's early lovetalks, there's only really two possible outcomes; either she likes and trusts you more, or she just stops talking to you. You're responses through most of the game might as well all just be labelled '1. Nice, 2. Neutral, 3. Insult.'
@booinyoureyes: If you're playing or RPing an Evil Bhaalspawn, you have no reason to consider the Order of the Radiant Heart as potential allies. In fact, given that paladins aren't exactly known for their tolerance of any kind of Evil, your character would have more reason to believe that the Order's agents are more likely to kill you on sight than help you.
The question for LE/NE characters is one of potential gain versus risk. If you help Dorn, you gain his allegiance and strike a blow against an organization that poses a danger to you. If you don't, you gain nothing - least of all any assurance that the Order won't come after you anyway. A preemptive strike on a potential threat makes more sense than hoping you can fly under the radar of the Order and the Cowled Wizards and whichever thieves' guild you don't align with.
@ayiekie so killing a random paladin is not something only a sociopath would do?
Not really. My evil charname doesn't kill for fun, or to stack puppy heads on her Altar of Evil. She's allowing a killing to happen to someone she doesn't know or care about in order to gain a benefit. She doesn't consider it particularly different than when she ganks some random guard who is guarding someplace like the Iron Throne. That guard never did anything to her personally, and she has no particular malice towards him. It's unfortunate - mostly for him - but such is life.
So it is when some member of a holy order has to die in order to obtain the services of a valuable ally - who, it is only fair to point out, has literally no choice but to kill him.
Killing is a means to an end, not an end in and of itself.
Comments
Honestly, in Baldur's Gate 1, Neera's way more evil than Viconia. Her special encounter in the city demonstrates that rather abruptly (and horrifyingly, if you didn't pay off the guy and consider just what exactly Neera did from an objective perspective - someone offered her shelter when she needed it, she robbed him blind and ran off in the middle of the night, and when he finds her again, admittedly in self-defence she murders him).
I loved that, mind, because Neera is cute and funny (opinions can and do vary on those attributes, of course), often eager to try and prove her worth to the group and undoubtedly being unfairly persecuted for her inborn powers. It's easy to assign virtue to her because of those traits - she's likable, so you want to think the best of her. But she doesn't actually deserve that. Neera is overweeningly arrogant, quick to jump to unwarranted conclusions (take some not-entirely-complimentary-but-not-insulting-either dialogue options while romancing her and you'll see plenty of examples of both), very very selfish, impatient, thoughtless and frequently ungrateful (not always, but frequently). She's hurt a lot of people in her backhistory, both intentionally and accidentally (and that's just the ones you know about!), but rarely spares a thought for anybody other than herself being the victim.
That's why I like her, because she's actually written like the chaotic neutral alignment she's supposed to be. She's not really evil, but she sure as hell isn't good. It's a fun, sometimes subtle touch they've used on the character, and I appreciated it quite a bit (and head-canon it as sometimes very awkward for my besotted LG Cavalier who desperately wants to ignore or explain away the problematic aspects of her personality).
(I am moderately concerned with her plotline so far in BGIIEE, as she's presented very unvarnishedly benevolent so far and that seems out of character... but I trust the writers based on their work in BGEE, and it's early yet as I'm both waiting for the patch and trying to finish up my BG1 evil playthrough so I can interact with Hexxat beyond chopping her to bits.)
Also, this is a game based on a fantasy setting, with a totally fictional alignment structure that has no links to real life whatsoever (what is 'alignment' anyway?), so no real issue for me. Dorn is badass like that. That being said, I prefer Hexxat's manipulative evilness to Dorn's psycho version.
And yes Neera has the most interesting background story of all new NPCs. IMHO
also
You're right, to a point. He may not be deep as the atlantic ocean (though I haven't progressed far enough into BG2 to really give a final verdict) but I don't always enjoy NPC's because of their immensely detailed and thought out psychologies.
I enjoyed the Jaheira romance because it was fairly mature, deep and realistic. I enjoyed Minsc's character because he's a wacky huge guy with a hamster who talks about kicking the butts of stinking evil. I enjoyed Anomen (yes, you are not alone) because even though he's a total ass, he's possibly the most realisticly broken character in the bunch.
Dorn's just as ridiculous as Minsc but fun in his own way. Dorn's slaughter-happy evil is not very realistic but I still enjoyed red-weddinging my way into his heart. He doesn't have to be a Shakespearean tragedy for that.
To each his own, of course. Just wanted to clarify my motivations.
Nor, in fact, can I picture said character, who merrily waltzed through Baldur's Gate with Dorn at their side suddenly saying "No! You are very evil! I will never help you and you are dumb!" either, which rapidly becomes the binary choice available. There may be greatly nuanced interactions on the other side of that recruitment chat, but all I can see this side is stupid good and stupid evil, even worse than Aerie's love talks (I like Aerie, but frankly "1: I'm a jerk who picks on emotionally damaged girls. 2: You suck Aerie. I also kick kittens. 3: I am not a cosmic jerk, so therefore am also 100% super sympathetic despite just having been tortured for a full year" some of the chats turn into is rather jarring).
Hexxat.... Meh, not interested in thieves this playthrough, so I doubt I'll see any of her story.
Baeloth: Amusing, and was worth a brief stint in the party, but I like my NPCs to have a little plot.
Rasaad is a likeable and decent guy, with a pleasantly tropey kung fu plot in BG1, and I'm looking forward to his BGII plotline, and my #2 favourite, I love monks - would love 'em more if I could multiclass them of course.
So yeah, it's got to be Neera. She's flawed, quirky, and a Wild Mage, which can pretty easily end up as quasi-sorcerers, except better, in both BG and BGII.
Even in the recruitment chat, you can handily stop him from killing the wedding party and he doesn't put up any fuss about it. You can't stop him from waltzing in and ganking the cleric (well, you can't stop him without violence), but as a blackguard he literally has no choice in the matter and any companion of his from Bg1 would know that. I didn't think it was that bad, really (although obviously it'd be a deal-breaker for most non-evil characters). I might be forgetting something about the very initial dialogue bit, though.
I have dabbled with him over the months between now and posting that (though I'm currently off BG and focusing on more literary endeavours, so I do need to finish him up at some point), and things do get better after the first conversation, but to recruit him you pretty well have to say "We will wade through rivers of kitten blood! Ahahahahahaha", no "Well I do hate Paladins...." or even "So long as I'm extremely well paid!" just kitten blood and baby eating.
Great voice, funny, and a magic resistant sorcerer - what's not to like?
( oh, oh, I've voted for Hexxat :P)
Maybe a psychopath is more descriptive. Legitimate for crazy evil characters, but that doesn't at all seem like what Pantalion described his characters
For your point #1: Is Dorn more of a help than the entire Order of the Radiant Heart wanting to kill you is a hindrance?
One Blackguard as an ally as opposed to and entire Order of paladins as an enemy? I'll take the army, thank you very much. I think it is just stupid to take those odds, regardless of alignment. The one exception in which a non-idiotic character would agree to help Dorn is if he actually *enjoys* killing innocents (which may well be the case for your character, but that would be more Chaotic Evil according to the NE description you provided)
Also I think a lot of people are ignoring the fact that when you first meet Dorn you cannot take him unless you agree to his task. At that point you know he is a strong fighter, but is taking on one of the three most powerful organizations in Athkatla (as far as I know). In order to accept this task you either have to:
a. love killing paladins/kicking puppies/being a ginger
or
b. be really dumb and think that one half-orc is more valuable an ally against an *evil* mage in Athkatla than an organization full of warriors that's entire purpose is to fight... evil mages... in Athkatla.
I agree it makes sense for a chaotic evil or semi-insane character (which I can see some people enjoying), but to act as though its outlandish for someone to suggest it is a "stupid" act is just wrong.
Killing a random cleric is a bothersome inconvenience, but there is no reason to believe it's more than that. Even if the order found out who did it (which is one reason to let him kill all the witnesses), dodging them is not any harder than half a dozen other things my charname routinely does before breakfast each morning. Well worth it to gain the aid of such a useful and reliable ally. Even if she did have to gently rebuff his offer to wrestle naked later. And then less gently until he got the point and simmered down.
In most cases, having lots of different responses only gives the illusion of choice. Like with most of Aerie's early lovetalks, there's only really two possible outcomes; either she likes and trusts you more, or she just stops talking to you. You're responses through most of the game might as well all just be labelled '1. Nice, 2. Neutral, 3. Insult.'
The question for LE/NE characters is one of potential gain versus risk. If you help Dorn, you gain his allegiance and strike a blow against an organization that poses a danger to you. If you don't, you gain nothing - least of all any assurance that the Order won't come after you anyway. A preemptive strike on a potential threat makes more sense than hoping you can fly under the radar of the Order and the Cowled Wizards and whichever thieves' guild you don't align with.
He has a huge sword and a pert green butt.
What more do you want?
...
... apart from maybe urgent counselling...
So it is when some member of a holy order has to die in order to obtain the services of a valuable ally - who, it is only fair to point out, has literally no choice but to kill him.
Killing is a means to an end, not an end in and of itself.