Skip to content

[Known, #7410] [CORE] - Enemies without any proficiency in SoA

NoonNoon Member Posts: 202
edited September 2014 in BGII:EE Bugs (v1.2.2030)
I noticed that most of the enemies don't have any proficiency points in game (with ctrl+q them), although they are attributed in the .cre files (with nearinfinity.jar). So most of the enemy fighters have a bad thaco and fewer apr. Is it only my game or not ?
Post edited by Illydth on
«1

Comments

  • SuccubusSuccubus Member Posts: 90
    No, it's not just your game. And it's not only in BG2:EE... it's the same with BG:EE.
    This has a huge impact on most enemies, making them much weaker.
  • syllogsyllog Member Posts: 158
    [It may be worth noting that SCS (Sword Coast Stratagems) fixes this I believe. Though I'm not sure the intended result is within the challenge range originally intended...]
  • SuccubusSuccubus Member Posts: 90
    edited January 2014
    It must have been a recent patch that destroyed proficiencies on all enemies (the only exception are enemies added by Beamdog). I am watching a let's play of an older version of BG:EE and I've specifically observed damage ranges on some enemies and they seem fine compared to the 1.2. version ranges.

    While we're on the subject of proficiencies. Was it a design choice to leave the effects of proficiencies to be different between BG1EE and BG2EE?
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,164
    I noticed the same. I added solaufein and he had no proficiencies at all. Same with all the paladins in the Order from what I could tell. I just assumed that the difference was programmed in, but I don't know anything about computers.
    Is it possible to fix this? The game must be much easier if that is the case.
  • syllogsyllog Member Posts: 158
    edited January 2014
    @Succubuss @Noon @booinyoureyes
    Can people put together some saved games to showcase this?
    (Just with enemies that can be examined and don't have proficiencies.)
    I know there is at least one bug that should be fixed in the next update that stops the spell Luck from wiping a characters proficiencies. [Bug] Luck Removes Weapon Proficiencies - Permanently
    Perhaps proficiencies have been wiped by other means as well.
    Important if so. -- Especially if, as I imagine, a new patch is coming out very soon.

    What if any mods are installed?
  • SuccubusSuccubus Member Posts: 90
    No mods. I'm playing BG:EE. You can easily test it by spawning any enemy and then using CRTL+Q on it. In Near Infinity, under the Edit tab you'll see what proficiencies the creature is supposed to get and those proficiencies are there in the original BG version.

    Same process for BG2:EE I suppose.
  • lansounetlansounet Member Posts: 1,182
    edited January 2014
    IIRC all these creatures actually have weapon profs, the original BG1 ones which aren't displayed on record screen on this engine because they changed how weapon proficiencies were handled while making BG2 (old ones in preset offsets in CRE file 0x6e > 0x75, new ones as effects applied on CRE).

    AFAIK these "old profs" still work for Thac0/dmg calculations, or at least they did in original BG2. No idea how they behave together however, someone could check Abazigal thac0/dmg maybe : he has 5 in large swords and 5 in two handed swords while wielding the correct weapon (1d10+5 dmg, thac0 +5) and has 25 STR. Do the maths on what they should be, spawn him in game and compare results (CTRL Q eventually)
  • prophet1prophet1 Member Posts: 172
    edited January 2014
    Old BG1 proficiencies (CRE offsets 0x6e thru 0x75 in Near Infinity) still work in BG2/EE engine, so all BG1 creatures should have the same bonuses and penalties they had in original BG1.

    It worked the same way in Tutu/BGT, they didn't assign the new profciency effects to creatures either (except joinable NPCs, of course).
  • SuccubusSuccubus Member Posts: 90
    prophet1 said:

    Old BG1 proficiencies (CRE offsets 0x6e thru 0x75 in Near Infinity) still work in BG2/EE engine, so all BG1 creatures should have the same bonuses and penalties they had in original BG1.

    They DO NOT.

    For example, Skeleton Warrior in BG (skelwa or skelwa02) is supposed to have all proficiencies maxed out. The damage range is supposed to be 10-19 with its +1 two-hander.
    The damage range in the current version is 5-14 (and no, it's not just a matter of wrong information on the char sheet, it actually deals this damage).
    It naturally also affects thac0 and APR.

  • prophet1prophet1 Member Posts: 172
    @Succubus

    I suspect you were testing this on Normal difficulty, which only applies 75% damage to player characters. On Core difficulty (medium slider position), I'm getting 9-18 damage from skelwa (see the attached screenshot).

    Which is still 1 point lower than should be, and may indeed be a bug, unless I'm forgetting something:

    Two-handed sword +1 = 1d10+1 = 2-11 base damage (see SW2H02.ITM)
    18/40 Strength = +3 damage bonus (see STRMOD.2DA and STRMODEX.2DA)
    5 stars grandmastery = +5 damage bonus (see WSPECIAL.2DA)
    (2-11) + 3 + 5 = 10-19
  • SuccubusSuccubus Member Posts: 90
    No, I'm playing on core difficulty.

    The skeleton warrior seems to attack a creature without a weapon equipped. I noticed that if that's the case, considerably more damage is dealt.
    Why don't you CRTL+Q the skeleton and show us the screenshot of its stats?
  • prophet1prophet1 Member Posts: 172
    Succubus said:

    No, I'm playing on core difficulty.

    The skeleton warrior seems to attack a creature without a weapon equipped. I noticed that if that's the case, considerably more damage is dealt.
    Why don't you CRTL+Q the skeleton and show us the screenshot of its stats?

    The stats on inventory and player record screens don't take BG1 proficiencies into account. Just like they don't account for luck bonuses, for example.

    I tried Ctrl-Q'ing and re-equipping the sword to make sure it's used, but it doesn't change the amount of damage dealt from what I reported earlier.
  • SuccubusSuccubus Member Posts: 90
    edited January 2014
    Your screenshot again shows that the skeleton is attacking someone without any weapons equipped. Why don't you equip the quarterstaff (or any other weapon) on Abdel?
  • SuccubusSuccubus Member Posts: 90
    Also, screenshots.
  • syllogsyllog Member Posts: 158
    edited January 2014
    @Succubus
    @prophet1
    If you guys could upload saves with these skeletons so people could check to see if difficulty or somet other factor is influencing them that would be grand. :)

    Edit: @Succubus
    Request was merely in the interest of efficiency. The fewer steps a person takes and fewer variables are uncontrolled the simpler it is to get at the source of a thing. (Not relevant anymore: but you can just hit the upload file button when you post and add a zip of your savegame folder.)
    Post edited by syllog on
  • SuccubusSuccubus Member Posts: 90
    The difficulty slider is in the middle.
    Could you test it yourself, without any mods?

    Do you need creature spawn codes or something?
  • prophet1prophet1 Member Posts: 172
    Succubus said:

    Your screenshot again shows that the skeleton is attacking someone without any weapons equipped. Why don't you equip the quarterstaff (or any other weapon) on Abdel?

    Ouch, I misunderstood what you said. You're right, I forgot that without a weapon characters take +4 additional damage when attacked in melee.

    I dug up the old thread on BG2 Fixpack forums where the issue with old weapon proficiencies was originally discovered and discussed. Link for reference: http://forums.gibberlings3.net/index.php?showtopic=8458. So those legacy proficiencies did work in original BG2 engine, but don't seem to be working in BGEE.

    @Gate70 @Tresset Can you guys add this to bugtracker if it's not already there?

    Steps to replicate:
    1. Start new game with Abdel on Core difficulty, disable AI, make sure the staff is equipped.
    2. C:CreateCreature("skelwa")
    3. Note the amount of damage dealt to Abdel. Expected: 10-19. Actual: 5-14.
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,164
    Hey unfortunately I'm playing a heavily modded game, so maybe uploading it wouldn't provide much insight? I dunno.
  • prophet1prophet1 Member Posts: 172
    edited January 2014
    @Gate70 No, like I said, vanilla BG2 engine made use of those legacy BG1 proficiencies. Check the thread linked above.

    Having them NOT work breaks balance on a large scale, since very few NPCs and creatures in both games have BG2 proficiencies assigned, if any at all besides joinable characters. This is a serious bug in both BG1EE and BG2EE.

    A random example from BG2EE. Drow Warrior (DROW01.CRE) does not have any BG2 proficiency effects, but has 2 stars in Large Swords proficiency. In vanilla BG2 this would let him have his bonuses to damage and to-hit from WSPECIAL.2DA when wielding his Drow Longsword +3, just as if he had 2 stars in BG2 Long Sword proficiency. Currently he has none, as do all other creatures and npcs with bg1 proficiency stars.
    Post edited by prophet1 on
  • IllydthIllydth Member, Developer Posts: 1,641
    edited January 2014
    Tagged for 7410 and upgraded bug from "C" to "B". Wanted to raise this to "A" but it doesn't fit the definition.

    @LiamEsler: Wanted to summon you quickly so you could see this thread. This is a pretty big one.
  • LiamEslerLiamEsler Member Posts: 1,859
    Cheers @Illdyth :D
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,164
    so, was this a bug or no?
  • SethDavisSethDavis Member Posts: 1,812
    aye, twas buggy enough. anyone interested in testing 4699 creatures to make sure no-one got terribly overpowered with this? shouldn't take more than a week or two.

    ye gods... why does it take so long to upload.....

    now i don't wanna upload the bg1 group....

    dieing.... slowly....

    bllllllllllaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhh

    giving up in 3... 2.... 1......
  • SethDavisSethDavis Member Posts: 1,812
    attempt 2
  • SethDavisSethDavis Member Posts: 1,812
    and now the bg1 group, 2191 creatures
  • SuccubusSuccubus Member Posts: 90
    Great work, but I did find something.

    Amarande in BG1EE (amaran) is using a club, instead of a quarterstaff like in the original and he has 0 proficiency points in club. The no proficiency bug applies:

  • SethDavisSethDavis Member Posts: 1,812
    alrighty, clubs are weird. I'll look into that a bit more
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,155
    @SethDavis especially the Club+1,+2 vs Unnatural Creatures, "The Root of the Problem" :P
    Are those .rar the creatures of both games with fixed proficiencies or just the CRE files?
    imagebloody hell, my downloads folder is full than ever 0.o
  • SuccubusSuccubus Member Posts: 90
    SethDavis said:

    alrighty, clubs are weird. I'll look into that a bit more

    It's worth noting that with your files creatures in BG2EE get a lot more proficiencies. While that's a side effect in BG1EE because BG1 proficiencies encompassed a variety of weapons, it's not really necessary for BG2EE, even though the problem is mostly cosmetic. Perhaps there's a way to restore the old creature files and their original proficiencies.

  • SethDavisSethDavis Member Posts: 1,812
    CrevsDaak said:

    Are those .rar the creatures of both games with fixed proficiencies or just the CRE files?

    I'm not 100% sure i recognize the difference there. The CRE should be the only thing needed to fix the proficiencies for the character. Unfortunately, the way i automated it pulled all the CRE files in each game (BUAHAHAHAHA for bg2 and notfunnyanymore for bg1). I'll work on paring that down a bit before i submit it.
    Succubus said:

    it's not really necessary for BG2EE

    Aye, tis a fair point. I started doing it in a way that made sense for their weapons but i realized that i didn't know when those weapons might be changed via script or spell etc. That and it took me two (part time) days to get down to creatures starting with D, so i gave up and automated it a bit. Hopefully the size jump doesn't burn any bridges with apple. The in game CRE should stay the same size so i don't think it will have any impact on gameplay speed/memory.
Sign In or Register to comment.

2024 Overhaul Games, a division of Beamdog. © 2024 Hasbro, Inc. All Rights Reserved. Baldur's Gate, Dungeons & Dragons, D&D, Forgotten Realms, Baldur's Gate, Wizards of the Coast and their logos are trademarks of Wizards of the Coast LLC in the U.S.A. and other countries, and are used with permission. Hasbro and its logo are trademarks of Hasbro, Inc. and are used with permission. © 1998 BioWare Corp. All Rights Reserved. BioWare, the BioWare Infinity Engine and the BioWare logo are trademarks of Bioware Corp. Black Isle Studios and the Black Isle Studios logo are trademarks of Interplay Entertainment Corp. Atari and the Atari logo are trademarks owned by Atari Interactive, Inc. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners.