Saverok because he is the oldest amazing villain that i remember other than Dr. Robotnik and that giant image of him after he kills gorion and the text scroll happens stuck in my mind clear as day when i was unable to play BG due to lack of discs
She could've convinced the five of how dangerous you are after you killed Illasera and together set up a careful trap to take care of you - the greatest threat - first.
...
She was never close. She didn't fool anyone except herself. She played all the cards in her hands wrong, and the only thing she managed in the end was to get all of her underlings, and then herself, killed.
-_- you do realize that The Five were NOT underling, but her pawns who were *supposed* to die right?
Lets see what she was up against... she is one human mage/cleric/deathstalker against the 7 most powerful Bhaalspawn (charname, Balthazaar, Illesera, Yaga-Shura, Sendai, Abazigal and Gromnir... and that only if you don't count Imoen and perhaps even Sarevok)
In the end she faces ONE (maybe three or four if you want to push it)
All this while disregarding the HUNDREDS of other Bhaalspawn all with more personal power than her... who she tricked into banding together to stay safe but actually managed to kill them... ALL of them (save for Viekang)
Then she became more powerful than all of them, despite starting at a clear disadvantage in terms of the natural, personal power that she was born with. She didn't inherit the essence of the god of murder... she earned it.
If, for example, we could have glimpsed a few detalis of her existence and planning in BG1 and 2, and with a better character development in ToB, yes, she could have become the greatest villian in the series. But as it is, nope. I don't see any reason to believe that she planned it all allong or that she manipulated everyone (nor how she achieved it, we just have to believe she dit it) but the game tells me so and I have to believe it.
This is all true, but the last sentence is really the most relevant to this conversation
I thought most Bhaalspawn trapped in Saradush and killed in the countryside where no more than simple people? The game introduces you to a lot of Bhaalspawn who were normal dudes without any powers, trying to live their lifes normal. The former highest Priestess of a God of Murder is clearly more powerful than most Bhaalspawn.
Well. For me, Sarevok is the man who cuts the deal. He had a bad childhood, Gorion choose us (protagonist and imoen) instead of him. He saw life as it was, with its ugly face from the start, without first enjoying a happy, carefree childhood. He managed to go through all that, and achieved many things, like exceptional training in arms (from Winsky) and in mind (after he was adopted). Not just a stupid, dumb muscle persona, Sarevok was way beyond that. Also, in game terms and under powergaming viewpoint, he is the single toughest NPC you can ever hope to recruit, with highest stats. His sword and armor were outstanding; too bad in ToB you cannot somehow restore him entirely, but there are many better weapons for him anyway, like the Ravager and Firetooth. He can dual, despite it being a poor idea/performance. Despite his affair with that other woman, he still loved Tamoko. And i was really sad that she died in ToB, and he left to vanish forever, going after her tomb. I always wondered though how Tamoko died, especially since i spared her life in 1, but...
His best in-game factor that sets him above the other villains, is that he can join your group! AND make amends, with a change of heart and aligment! I like it a lot when bad people are given the chance to repent, especially if they use it wisely and with truth/honesty. Fantasy is superior to real life in just two things: 1) Bad people can be forgiven and given a second chance. 2) There is always a save/load when you faq up everything.
Now about the others... Irenicus was barely ok for me. Twisted (torturing others, putting them in jars, not allowing them to die), megalomaniac (same as sarevok, if not more deluded and grandiose), senseless (pain of subjects, experiments)... The man is a fake. He says he loved that queen, yet his garden was filled with concubine dryads! That queen gives him the chance of reunion, too, even at the epitome of his cruelty and damage done, and he lets it fly! I cannot decide if he lost his love because he became paranoid/twisted on the way, or simply was from the very start under self illusion that he ever even loved. For me, a villain without feelings, is not a villain at all. As a saying goes, concerning another villain; "When a man learns to love, he must bear the risk of hatred". And a villain who has that one time given *luxury* to make amends and doesn't, is even more pitiful than trash. Sorry, Irenicus lovers. The man cannot be helped. He had it coming by himself.
Now about that freak. That bitch! The woman reminded me pretty much of my ex! Faking good intentions and good alignment in order to get close to you! Chatting with others, even rivals, giving them wrong or false, or wrong AND false, advice! Setting others on you, and you discovering that on the way! Her worshipping an evil deity. Her being the epitome of all women's dark side; treacherous, nefarious, using subterfuge to full extent, false niceties to charm you and blind you (for inflicting one sided feelings like friendship, love, or even simple belief to her words), playing with others (Dorn Il Khan, Balthazar), toying with their sanity and their active threats... The woman is a monster! She even betrayed a *God*! Her utmost plan had been from the very beginning, to steal from you, or you, from yours, or yours! And happily dangerously destroy everything around you, especially your inheritence, world, and fellow people. I simply fail to comrehend how or why such things can even be called a human. In game or otherwise. And i will never understand how or why some people even like such traits, aspects, characters and personalities... Be they fictional or not. For me, it was very fitting for her, being the final, REAL villain. Made a lot of sense, under ALL scopes. Plus, she was so evil and miserable, that she did not even have any affair; Irenicus had his hoes, and Sarevok his two girls. That ugly hug was even depraved of a companion, even as a decorative and disposeable tool, like that poor soul Solaufein... VERY, fitting. As was her end.
Sarevok finally was able to damage us the most. The whole dopplegangers thing, that freakish, twisted nightmare, was real sick. All of our childhood friends and people we remembered fondly, revealed to be fakes, turned into twisted, grotesque monsters, trying to squeeze our very lives out of us! They threw us injustly into a dungeon cell, in a creepy underground compartment, and all of our friends were waiting in ambush in darkness for us to come, trying to free ourselves from a false sentence. This single chapter in BG1 alone, was the sickest, cruelest, most maddening single thing, i have EVER experienced in a videogame EVER.
And that beauty, Tamoko... A lady warrior with "asian" features and cute, playful voice? Sarevok, you lucky bastard! Even Tamoko alone would suffice for him having experienced a harsh life. Too bad his ambitions proved more important than her...
I thought most Bhaalspawn trapped in Saradush and killed in the countryside where no more than simple people? The game introduces you to a lot of Bhaalspawn who were normal dudes without any powers, trying to live their lifes normal. The former highest Priestess of a God of Murder is clearly more powerful than most Bhaalspawn.
Yes, but presumably they had a greater potential, which which constitutes the real deficit.
Because when all was said and done she faced the strongest opponent she possibly could. You, now fueled with all the others essence.
The problem here is that you're confusing her being close with being physically close. If you are supposed to do an obstacle cource and you manage to beat 9 out of 10 of the obstacles with ease, but then you are faced with an insanely difficult obstacle which you have less than 1% chance of beating with all of your efforts - you were not close.
Or let's say you're in a chess tournament, and by carefully planning your stats you manage to face easy opponents all the way to the grand final - but by doing so you now face the actually best chess player of them all, and it's a win-or-nothing tournament. That's not being close. Or particularly smart.
Don't let the fact that she was one of the two (well three) final Bhaalspawns fool you into thinking that she was close. It was a win-or-nothing game, and she ended up with the worst possible opposition.
If she truly was the brilliant masterplanner you accuse her of being, she wouldn't have let you get half of the essence. She wouldn't have let you get to the Throne. Any other final Bhaalspawn would have been easier - seeing how you dispatched them from within their own fortresses, with their own armies and traps and arenas.
At the start of ToB she could've played in a lot of different ways. At the end of ToB she's facing the biggest challenge she ever could - and it was nor very difficult to figure out that it was going to happen. She played her hand so that when you face her in ToB, she is - at that very point, considering everything that had happened and could happen - as far away from claiming the power for herself as she possibly could.
@Deltago Erm.. What language? I didn't call anyone anything. Please don't tattle on me to the mods because you can't handle a little heat. I always wonder how people like you deal with issues in the real world. I imagine either by suppressing emotions and crying yourself to sleep, or possibly being the most irritating person everyone knows. Either way, get a thicker skin, or simply stay off my posts. I do not appreciate being reported for minor transgressions that every other user didn't even care about. You are not respecting my right of free speech by not allowing me to express my frustration at the ineptitude I am constantly faced with.
@Tenrecc, do try to suppress your hateful viewpoints to our beloved demi-Goddess Amelyssan. I am getting incredibly offended by your language towards her great achievements. Just because you don't respect them does not mean they were poor in planning or execution. Every villain has a right to be heard and respected.
On a serious note, your ignorance is an affront to all I stand for. Amelyssan figured she'd be stronger than you. Since this isn't an exact science (after all, how often does this happen?) she had no way of EXACTLY knowing what would happen. By all rights, she SHOULD have been more powerful than you. Except, when prophecy works against you, not much you can do, eh?
She did nothing wrong. Flawless planning, and nothing she could have done differently would have allowed the outcome to play out any differently, either. Whereas Sarevok had completely the wrong ritual, for starters, so his plan was a bust before it even started. And Irenipuss (brilliant, whoever said that first, brilliantly brilliant and you have my respect) didn't kill you when he had a perfect chance, what with you lying soulless in a tube and the rest of the party incapacitated and all. Boo hoo.
Your chess analogy is bogus. If I played chess with 99 opponents and beat them all (absorbing their intellect as I won), by all universal logic and laws, I should beat the 100th player because I now have the intelligence of myself+another 99 souls.
Although, if I absorbed the "intellect" of 99 forum users, it would probably lower my capabilities and I would lose horribly.
In fact, that's probably what happened to her. By absorbing the ineptitude of the dead Bhaalspawn, she made herself weaker and succumbed to charname and his party. Bah! Checkmate!
Your chess analogy is bogus. If I played chess with 99 opponents and beat them all (absorbing their intellect as I won), by all universal logic and laws, I should beat the 100th player because I now have the intelligence of myself+another 99 souls.
Not necessarily. One could argue that you gain nothing (or very little) from absorbing skills of guys who were weaker than you and couldn't best you.
I don't know if Amelyssan stoped at one point to check mainchar's history and achievements and tried to consider that what she had might not be enough.
One could also argue that the first 10 would not be able to beat me. But by the time I reached player 40, I would likely lose had I not absorbed the intellect of the other 39. It is their essences that enables me to beat the next player, then his essence that enables me to beat the player after, and so forth.
But that didn't happen with Melyssan. She had to absorb the energy of Bhaal that flowed back to his throne after the dead of the Bhaalspawn. If a Bhaalspawn kills another, he gets that essence, right? So if Charname kills the 5 mightiest, who in turn were all hunting other Bhaalspawn, Charname should receive more of a benefit than Melyssan. I'm not sure however. Not once in ToB did I see lightning strikes or hear a song of Queen.
On a serious note, your ignorance is an affront to all I stand for. Amelyssan figured she'd be stronger than you. Since this isn't an exact science (after all, how often does this happen?) she had no way of EXACTLY knowing what would happen. By all rights, she SHOULD have been more powerful than you. Except, when prophecy works against you, not much you can do, eh?
The fact that she thought she could win doesn't justify picking the strongest, least likely fight to win. That's just stupid. If there's three pathways to that thing you really really really REALLY want; one is guarded by a tiger, one is guided by a lion and one is guided by a dragon, you don't go fight the dragon because you "think you can win."
It was no big mystery that you were the strongest of them all. At the very least it should've been pretty clear once you started strutting into the enemies strongholds and slayed them on their own turfs. But once again, if she really were as brilliant as you claim, she would have at least done some effort to measure your strength and capabilities.
She did nothing wrong. Flawless planning, and nothing she could have done differently would have allowed the outcome to play out any differently, either.
Really? She could've left you to your own (lesser chance of successfully killing them), she could have set up a trap (since you were following her whims), she could have tried to warn the Five in some way (having them ganging up on you would've been way more of a challenge than Amelyssan in the Throne), she could have done her best to prevent you from leaving Saradush (being slayed by an immortal Yaga-Shura).
There was a lot she could have done that would have given her better odds of actually achieving her goal. But what does she do? Help you as well as she can while you kill her last chances of accomplishing something.
Your chess analogy is bogus. If I played chess with 99 opponents and beat them all (absorbing their intellect as I won), by all universal logic and laws, I should beat the 100th player because I now have the intelligence of myself+another 99 souls.
True, but that's not how it works. The Bhaal essence is shared between all the remaining Bhaalspawns. That's why you were supposed to get Bhaalpowers in ToB (and why the mods are there for it) but they removed it because it was too overlapping with HLAs.
And even if you example were true, the options were between You+99 souls VS the Grandmaster of Chess and You+99 souls VS a lesser chessplayer. The fact is that she ended up with the greatest challenge of them all, and the fact that she didn't foresee this or made any effort at all to change it shows that she's not smart or capable at all: she played her entire hand wrong from the start.
On a serious note, your ignorance is an affront to all I stand for. Amelyssan figured she'd be stronger than you. Since this isn't an exact science (after all, how often does this happen?) she had no way of EXACTLY knowing what would happen. By all rights, she SHOULD have been more powerful than you. Except, when prophecy works against you, not much you can do, eh?
The fact that she thought she could win doesn't justify picking the strongest, least likely fight to win. That's just stupid. If there's three pathways to that thing you really really really REALLY want; one is guarded by a tiger, one is guided by a lion and one is guided by a dragon, you don't go fight the dragon because you "think you can win."
It was no big mystery that you were the strongest of them all. At the very least it should've been pretty clear once you started strutting into the enemies strongholds and slayed them on their own turfs. But once again, if she really were as brilliant as you claim, she would have at least done some effort to measure your strength and capabilities.
The tiger and dragon analogy doesn't really add up. She needed to use someone to defeat the other five while she was not yet powrful enough to do so. Unless you believe that she should have used Viekang to defeat Yaga Shura, it made sense for her to eliminate as many of the strongest Bhaalspawn as she could. Keep in mind she was up against either the 7 or the 8 most powerful Bhaalspawn, and she defeated at least 6 without lifting a finger, despite being only a mere human.
On top of that she was able to lead HUNDREDS of weaker Bhaalspawn to their deaths as well, thinning the field even more.
I would also like to point out that while we are throwing the Bhaalspawn word left and right but one should also consider that our character is usually accompanied by a bunch of ridiculously overpowered fellows. You can be a mage or have one in your team who rivals in power with Chosens of Mystra. A fighter, who is probably better than Shuruppak (probably the strongest fighter in Faerun in terms of skill) etc.
I feel like Amelyssan group is ignoring my point, so I'll write it again.
Amelyssan was going to loose. Hard. She locked herself is Saradush governed by Gromnir with Yaga Shura at the gates. Fireballs flying through the sky hitting random locations that might just be where she is standing. Gromnir KNEW her plan, had the power and the will to execute her that very moment when charname interrupted. That was checkmate in one move with two possible variations. She got away only because of random variables interfering, ones she could not forsee.
Let's also not forget that Gromnir, *half-ogre warrior* deduced her plan. Seriously. That is strong evidence that would suggest that every other bhaalspawn that means something also knew something, but just didn't care because eradication of everyone else was also their agenda. Anyone who wanted to see the bhaalspawn dead would have their "plan" fullfilled in the next few years, she just sped up the process. Manipulating charname into killing the five could be accomplished by 10 year old. Maybe even it's not really manipulation - she tells you what she wants and you do it because you want it too. If she didn't hide cher character, 90% says nothing would have changed (I'd estimate only 1 in 10 people use detect alignement at all except for that one paladin stronghold quest), and the remainder would have likely killed all the bhaalspawn anyway without killing her because she is a good source of info and didn't commit any crime we could see.
And finally back to my point about her plan plainly sucking - it depended on succesfull bluffs. Lots of them. Many of which when failed meaned her imminent death. And even with Charisma of 21 (as her buffed out version in Ascension after absorbing all the bhaalspawn has) and all skill points put into bluff (AD&D had those) she was going on equal footing against the most powerfull, and she might have rolled a 1. She succeeded, but didn't deserve the victory with a gameplan like that.
Both Tenrecc and Deltharis (these two seem to have some personal vendetta against a capable woman, it seems) are the most outspoken against Amelyssan (with silent, passive liking contributions from Disgruntler, of course.)
And the thing is, not one of them actually understands her plan, from the looks of it. If that alone isn't proof of Amelyssan's sheer brilliance, I don't know what is.
Deltharis, Amelyssan was never "trapped" in Saradush. You DO realise she was playing Bhaalspawn against Bhaalspawn, right? Yaga Shura was as much her puppet as anyone. Him attacking the city WAS her plan. And Gromnir seeing her for being evil was because (as we can learn in our dream in BG2) "a fool often sees what a scholar does not." Even Bhaal himself was blind to Amelyssan's true nature, as he entrusted her to raise him. So unless you claim Gromnir is smarter than absolutely everyone, including Bhaal himself, then your point is moot.
And Tenrecc, you seem obsessed with this idea that she made a grievous error in fighting charname, what with him being the strongest Bhaalspawn and all. You're wrong on every imaginable level. Firstly, at his random appearance, she could not have known charname's capabilities. But, he teleported into a city which was magically sealed, AND defeated Gromnir's guards (as well as had a reputation already), so it was safe to assume he was at least capable enough to send on the task of defeating Gromnir. This is masterful strategy on her behalf, at half a moment's notice, she saw an opportunity and snapped it up. Thinking on her feet as well as long-term plans? Amelyssan, villain be thy name.
A Bhaalspawn slaying his kin doesn't transfer the power to the Bhaalspawn. If that was the case, can you imagine how powerful charname would have been the second he defeated Sarevok? And the unimaginable power he would have immediately attained after slaying each of the five? What happens is, the essence goes back to the source, and once all the essences are there (meaning all the Bhaalspawn are dead) the High Priestess (Amelyssan) was charged to perform the ritual fusing these essence into resurrecting Bhaal.
As each Bhaalspawn died, Amelyssan absorbed their essence at the Throne of Blood (Bhaal's throne, the location of the final battle.) Thus, with each death, she was getting stronger and stronger.
She didn't *choose* to fight the strongest Bhaalspawn. It only makes sense that the strongest would remain standing last. Charname happened to be it. If charname was slain by another on his quest, then it would have been someone else. But, it didn't matter WHO it was, because, by all rights, Amelyssan SHOULD have had more power than any of them after absorbing the essences of the fallen. That's what you seem to be missing. It didn't matter who the last was: By all rights, she should have been many times stronger than any of them.
And as Boo pointed out, she maneuvered the deaths of at least 6 of the most powerful Bhaalspawn without lifting a finger (and many weaker ones on top of that) whilst being only a human. She needed someone capable to do her bidding, not the likes of Viekang or Alexander.
Thus, her demise had nothing to do with poor planning (unlike Sarevok and Irenicus) . It had ONLY to do with the fact that she was simply outpunched by charname and co at the end. This was not a predictable outcome. By all logic, it should never have happened. Thus, she was the most capable villain of them all, and certainly achieved the most power of any of them.
Deltharis, Amelyssan was never "trapped" in Saradush. You DO realise she was playing Bhaalspawn against Bhaalspawn, right? Yaga Shura was as much her puppet as anyone. Him attacking the city WAS her plan. And Gromnir seeing her for being evil was because (as we can learn in our dream in BG2) "a fool often sees what a scholar does not." Even Bhaal himself was blind to Amelyssan's true nature, as he entrusted her to raise him. So unless you claim Gromnir is smarter than absolutely everyone, including Bhaal himself, then your point is moot.
It takes some imagination to interpret that situation as her being in power. Yes, Yaga Shura attacking the city was her plan. So was Gromnir and all the rest of bhaalspawn being there. What boggles my mind is why SHE was there. Since the city was clearly a trap (by her design) for everyone inside with teleportation barrier and occupying army of creatures that do not know what "taking prisoners" is. Child of bhaal who knows how she manipulated everyone and probably brought his doom in the position of power in the same place makes Saradush especially "trappy" for her specifically.
And do not overuse the word "puppet". That metaphore has many implications, and many do not fit what Amelyssan did. When dealing with the most powerfull she was the puppet - they all wished for the same end result (only one child of bhaal standing), and they had the power. She was just prodding them slightly to get there the way she wanted it, though it wouldn't have really mattered.
Why Bhaal chose her, we do not know. Or have only her word for her, if even that. Man, I wish there was some transcript for easy reference, my memory of dialogue specifics is not that good. What does she say about the begginings? I have a few arguments half-formed, but I'd prefer not to make my case on my imagination. There was something about her being high priestess, but was she the only one? Was any/all child of bhaal placed in her hands by plan or did she just assume that role? Does she say she planned betrelay from the beggining or did she come up with it later (and can we belive her if she says the former)? What was Bhaals original plan for her?
But, he teleported into a city which was magically sealed, AND defeated Gromnir's guards (as well as had a reputation already), so it was safe to assume he was at least capable enough to send on the task of defeating Gromnir. This is masterful strategy on her behalf, at half a moment's notice, she saw an opportunity and snapped it up. Thinking on her feet as well as long-term plans? Amelyssan, villain be thy name.
Yes, gotta give her some points here, she did use the new resource nicely. There are a few ways to lessen the impact of that - what was her other choice? Powerfull child of Bhaal teleported into teleportation-banned city. Was she to duel him? You jest. Wildcard 6th child of power couldn't also be simply ignored, option ruled out by default. Trying to get him on her side was the only thing that made sense AND the easiest one to accomplish. One could almost say that all she did was not to make a mistake. It's still something, but not that much.
As each Bhaalspawn died, Amelyssan absorbed their essence at the Throne of Blood (Bhaal's throne, the location of the final battle.) Thus, with each death, she was getting stronger and stronger.
Didn't she wait untill all of them were dead? I mean, that would be the reason why she is still absorbing when charname enters the room. Even when charname fights her. If all she was getting in that last of moments was essence of Balthazar well... Essence of bhaal isn't the stuff it is said to be then, and when she finished she wouldn't be even one order of magnitude stronger.
She didn't *choose* to fight the strongest Bhaalspawn. It only makes sense that the strongest would remain standing last. Charname happened to be it. If charname was slain by another on his quest, then it would have been someone else. But, it didn't matter WHO it was, because, by all rights, Amelyssan SHOULD have had more power than any of them after absorbing the essences of the fallen. That's what you seem to be missing. It didn't matter who the last was: By all rights, she should have been many times stronger than any of them.
You assume that children of bhaal can only fight solo, and only children of bhaal can eliminate other children. In that scenario yes, by definition the one that remained would be the strongest. It seems to be how the games portray them. it is possible that there was no way to lay a trap with two or more of them together against common foe - but it's the realm of thought experiment, and it is possible that it might have been done but Amelyssan wasn't good enough to pull it through. Or better, getting unrelated to bhaal henchmen that would help one fight other children of bhaal and betraying at the crucial moment. Like, say, Yoshimo did. Ok, his betrayal might have been better timed, probably bad wording of Geas. Still, the idea was spot on.
It had ONLY to do with the fact that she was simply outpunched by charname and co at the end. This was not a predictable outcome. By all logic, it should never have happened. Thus, she was the most capable villain of them all, and certainly achieved the most power of any of them.
Ultimately, looking just at the endgame, Irenicus also was simply outpunched by charname at Tree of Life. By all logic they shouldn't even have that encounter though, with the amount of raw power he put in protecting the place. Artifact-level illusion, avatar-of-god level seal on the door, statue-based lock and putting his godhood-sucking bugs on unreachable branches as the icing. Him being outpunched is the final step, not the one and only thing he counted on when encountering resistance. He could have more easily predicted it, yes, but put unimaginably lots of effort to making sure he wouldn't even need to check it. And well, he was as close to godhood as Amelyssan had been, it's just charname interrupted sooner in terms of his power level due to metagame reasons we can ignore.
The tiger and dragon analogy doesn't really add up. She needed to use someone to defeat the other five while she was not yet powrful enough to do so. Unless you believe that she should have used Viekang to defeat Yaga Shura, it made sense for her to eliminate as many of the strongest Bhaalspawn as she could. Keep in mind she was up against either the 7 or the 8 most powerful Bhaalspawn, and she defeated at least 6 without lifting a finger, despite being only a mere human.
On top of that she was able to lead HUNDREDS of weaker Bhaalspawn to their deaths as well, thinning the field even more.
You're doing the exact same error I've already described. By the time you face her in ToB she's as far away from her goal as she possibly could because she played all her cards wrong. Don't let the fact that she beat a lot of lesser bhaalspawns fool you - coming second doesn't count in this case.
And Tenrecc, you seem obsessed with this idea that she made a grievous error in fighting charname, what with him being the strongest Bhaalspawn and all. You're wrong on every imaginable level. Firstly, at his random appearance, she could not have known charname's capabilities. But, he teleported into a city which was magically sealed, AND defeated Gromnir's guards (as well as had a reputation already), so it was safe to assume he was at least capable enough to send on the task of defeating Gromnir. This is masterful strategy on her behalf, at half a moment's notice, she saw an opportunity and snapped it up. Thinking on her feet as well as long-term plans? Amelyssan, villain be thy name.
You know, if she were a brilliant master planner I'm pretty sure she could've. You are slightly famous at that point in the game and have accomplished pretty much. Everyone else seems to know your name at that point, but I guess they might just be smarter than her.
But once again, even if she wasn't smart enough to do some research on potentially dangerous Bhaalspawns, it should have been pretty clear once you started to strutt into their fortresses and killing them in their own turfs, with their own armies and traps and behind their own doors.
She didn't *choose* to fight the strongest Bhaalspawn. It only makes sense that the strongest would remain standing last. Charname happened to be it. If charname was slain by another on his quest, then it would have been someone else. But, it didn't matter WHO it was, because, by all rights, Amelyssan SHOULD have had more power than any of them after absorbing the essences of the fallen. That's what you seem to be missing. It didn't matter who the last was: By all rights, she should have been many times stronger than any of them.
Obviously it did matter. Obviously you were many times stronger than all the others, and obviously you would pose a greater threat to her if facing her in the Throne. No matter how you look at it, she ended up with the greatest opposition possible, which is not a hallmark of a genius master planner.
And as Boo pointed out, she maneuvered the deaths of at least 6 of the most powerful Bhaalspawn without lifting a finger (and many weaker ones on top of that) whilst being only a human. She needed someone capable to do her bidding, not the likes of Viekang or Alexander.
Thus, her demise had nothing to do with poor planning (unlike Sarevok and Irenicus) . It had ONLY to do with the fact that she was simply outpunched by charname and co at the end. This was not a predictable outcome. By all logic, it should never have happened. Thus, she was the most capable villain of them all, and certainly achieved the most power of any of them.
But that's the problem - it's not an ONLY. Just because you managed to bypass 500 obstacles and failed on the last didn't mean you were close, and if that last one was the most difficult you could possibly face at that point in time but you had opportunitues to deal with it earlier, it doesn't mean you were capable or smart in anyway.
You're either saying that she's unable to gauge the strength of a guy who has recklessly turned Faerun upside down, killing things like, oh say, countless demons and dragons and the Prince of Demons, as well as easily dispatching the five in front of her very eyes OR she was unable to make any adjustment in her plan, such as say, setting you up for a trap or something (even not helping you at all would've been a smarter move) OR she's too naive and just belives that because she got her hand on some Essence, it doesn't matter who of the Bhaalspawns she ends up facing - which was not only wrong, but definitely not the characteristics of a brilliant master planner.
Deltharis, Amelyssan was never "trapped" in Saradush. You DO realise she was playing Bhaalspawn against Bhaalspawn, right? Yaga Shura was as much her puppet as anyone. Him attacking the city WAS her plan. And Gromnir seeing her for being evil was because (as we can learn in our dream in BG2) "a fool often sees what a scholar does not." Even Bhaal himself was blind to Amelyssan's true nature, as he entrusted her to raise him. So unless you claim Gromnir is smarter than absolutely everyone, including Bhaal himself, then your point is moot.
Are you under the impression that intelligence is a metric measurement showing the mental abilities of a person in a linear fashion? That's even wrong in a game world with an ability score called 'Intelligence'.
A Bhaalspawn slaying his kin doesn't transfer the power to the Bhaalspawn. If that was the case, can you imagine how powerful charname would have been the second he defeated Sarevok? And the unimaginable power he would have immediately attained after slaying each of the five? What happens is, the essence goes back to the source, and once all the essences are there (meaning all the Bhaalspawn are dead) the High Priestess (Amelyssan) was charged to perform the ritual fusing these essence into resurrecting Bhaal.
That explains the lack of lightning after each Bhaalspawn defeated.
She didn't *choose* to fight the strongest Bhaalspawn. It only makes sense that the strongest would remain standing last. Charname happened to be it. If charname was slain by another on his quest, then it would have been someone else. But, it didn't matter WHO it was, because, by all rights, Amelyssan SHOULD have had more power than any of them after absorbing the essences of the fallen. That's what you seem to be missing. It didn't matter who the last was: By all rights, she should have been many times stronger than any of them.
And as Boo pointed out, she maneuvered the deaths of at least 6 of the most powerful Bhaalspawn without lifting a finger (and many weaker ones on top of that) whilst being only a human. She needed someone capable to do her bidding, not the likes of Viekang or Alexander.
Thus, her demise had nothing to do with poor planning (unlike Sarevok and Irenicus) . It had ONLY to do with the fact that she was simply outpunched by charname and co at the end. This was not a predictable outcome. By all logic, it should never have happened. Thus, she was the most capable villain of them all, and certainly achieved the most power of any of them.
Her success wasn't in her hand either. If Charname had taken a few minutes longer to reach Gromnir, then she would have been executed by the half-orc. Amelysan had no influence on that. Pure luck on her part. Do you know why Charname arrived when he did? Because his pocket plane took him where he needed to be to fulfill his destiny. His destiny was the prophecy of Alaundo, which Charname got explained to him by Solar. Charname knew from an early point in ToB that he would succeed or at least be the person deciding the fate of Bhaals essence. Whatever Amelysan did had no effect on Charname. He would have reached Bhaals throne as the last one with or without her. As a mastermind Amelysan should have stayed current on the prophecy of Alaundo. As a former high priestess she surely had some method of asking Celestials what it meant. But she did not. The very fact that the end is already known makes Amelysan not a villain but a roadblock.
Bah, there is no point even trying for objectivity with you people. Your fandom of the other two villains has clearly blinded you to the greatness of the third, simply because you don't happen to like her.
lol @ everyone saying "I knew it straight from the start I knew it! I'm so SMART, I just knew it! She was crap!" etc.
Yes, very good. You knew it due to generic storyline tropes. Certainly not because you are smart. After all, if you were smart, you'd have grasped such an obvious concept by now.
I've made my points more than adequately, as has the only other rational person on this thread.
The rest of you can continue your worthless romp through life, and remain subjective in all things without regarding factual evidence. I'm sure you'll get far.
Nothing against you @Edwin_Odesserion, i really find funny your roleplay of Edwin behavior, but... ("edit") things are going pretty well in fact, go on, continue with the offensive banters cos i'm getting more fun here than playing the game.
Just a criticize, you forget to call the other people that disagree with you of "simians"!! That's an important part for an effective offensive banter!
well, my 2 cents on this:
Take all the events of Throne of Bhaal except the final battle with Amelyssan, if we remove Melissa from the game in the very start, would the story line still flow normally?
Could Grommnir II Khan had some inf about Yaga-Shura, being an War Lord and all, so we could get the knowledge of where is yaga-shura weak point from him? Could we find another NPC or event to send us to Balthazar's Oasis?
I can see ToB work without Amelyssan in the game with just some adjustments of a few strings and banters, the other 2 major enemies are more deeply introduced in the game.
The way Edwin is handling this discussion can be summed up to the question "Who is the greatest villain and why Amelyssan". Which reminds me actually of an old joke in which a group of kids in Soviet Russia is asked a question: "Who is your favorite hero and why Joseph Stalin?.
To sum up everyone else's arguments for them (in a neat, and short matter):
- Amelyssan sucks because maybe this, and if that and something this and *I completely didn't even understand what was going on in the game.* You people are assuming way too many things and giving me nothing concrete.
I can give you CONCRETE evidence where Sarevok and Irenicus failed, and I have many times over. The most glaring ones were:
- Sarevok's entire scheme to ascend was wrong, therefore, even if he won, his efforts were futile. AND to let charname go unchecked after he caused so much turmoil in mines/camps/etc. Utter failure.
- Irenicus leaving charname and co alive post-soul transfusion in Spellhold, where literally, LITERALLY another spell or two and they'd all have been dealt with permanently. AND casting spells to kill a few petty thieves in the middle of a promenade in a magic-hating city, thus putting himself in a MUCH harder position. He got SO MANY forces involved in his plan when all it should have been was capturing two pathetic Bhaalspawn and taking their souls quietly. Utter failure.
So even IF some of these accusations against Amelyssan's competency were true (which they are not, but if) she had NEVER made such glaring, obvious oversights. Therefore, even if she did make SOME mistakes (she didn't, but if) they were nowhere near to the caliber of the other two bumbling fools. Their mistakes are so obviously stupid that it's laughable.
So pointing out Amelyssan's alleged incompetencies is not enough. We do have a basis for comparison here (hence the name of the thread). And when we compare, we see that the other two's mistakes far outweigh Amelyssan's alleged ones. Thus, even if all three were crappy villains, it can be said she's the least crappy of all, which makes her superior.
Irenicus can never be the greatest villain of them because of obvious "wtf are you doing?" type of a mistake. Sarevok, the same.
That leaves us with only one option. I'll have a little faith and leave it to you simians to figure out who.
To sum up everyone else's arguments for them (in a neat, and short matter):
- Amelyssan sucks because maybe this, and if that and something this and *I completely didn't even understand what was going on in the game.* You people are assuming way too many things and giving me nothing concrete.
I can give you CONCRETE evidence where Sarevok and Irenicus failed, and I have many times over. The most glaring ones were:
- Sarevok's entire scheme to ascend was wrong, therefore, even if he won, his efforts were futile. AND to let charname go unchecked after he caused so much turmoil in mines/camps/etc. Utter failure.
- Irenicus leaving charname and co alive post-soul transfusion in Spellhold, where literally, LITERALLY another spell or two and they'd all have been dealt with permanently. AND casting spells to kill a few petty thieves in the middle of a promenade in a magic-hating city, thus putting himself in a MUCH harder position. He got SO MANY forces involved in his plan when all it should have been was capturing two pathetic Bhaalspawn and taking their souls quietly. Utter failure.
So even IF some of these accusations against Amelyssan's competency were true (which they are not, but if) she had NEVER made such glaring, obvious oversights. Therefore, even if she did make SOME mistakes (she didn't, but if) they were nowhere near to the caliber of the other two bumbling fools. Their mistakes are so obviously stupid that it's laughable.
So pointing out Amelyssan's alleged incompetencies is not enough. We do have a basis for comparison here (hence the name of the thread). And when we compare, we see that the other two's mistakes far outweigh Amelyssan's alleged ones. Thus, even if all three were crappy villains, it can be said she's the least crappy of all, which makes her superior.
Irenicus can never be the greatest villain of them because of obvious "wtf are you doing?" type of a mistake. Sarevok, the same.
That leaves us with only one option. I'll have a little faith and leave it to you simians to figure out who.
First, you assume Sarevok's plan could not work, but where are you getting that? He's one of people with great understanding of prophecy (one of the reasons that you let him tag along on ToB), and by the looks of it, his steps were not entirely false. We have seen it with Irenicus, Bhaal's essence strenghtens and surfaces with death, especially death in large amounts (one of the reasons of guild war in BG2). So maybe the war he was about the start could be one of his steps to ascension rather than his ultimate goal?
His underestimation of charname was a mistake, but i can't blame him much since his last encounter with him/her, he/she was just a puppy that was running scared. By the time comes that charname become a threat, he saw him/her as a test rather than the bug he thinks charname is.
About Irenicus, it was Bodhi's idiocy that let charname live past that encounter. Also, involment of shadow thieves was his own doing, and part of his plan.
Your entire "failure" rant, unless in case of Irenicus, is also based on nothing concrete. It's the very essence of ifs - if he did that, if he didn't do that he would have been better off. In case of killing the charname I would even agree with that, but these are NOT concretes.
And these are not failures. These are setbacks. Things that his strategy took into consideration, things we can see how well he deals with. Failure implies the end - and Irenicus got his endgame, same as Amelyssan.
Let's see again what our metric is: "in terms of their cunning, competence, plans, resources, resourcefulness" Mistakes you mention only weaken competence component, and even that not so much seeing as competence ultimately is measured by consequences, and endgame situation was the same. Of the remainder we see a plenty, first-hand evidence of how he cunningly incorporates imprisonment into his plans, how he uses Drow, golems and all manner of creatures from the lower planes to be his personal army, how he puts roadblocks only devine intervention can overcome.
And Amelyssan talked to some people, got lots of them into a trap which she fell into herself (most laughable mistake in all three games), got saved by random event she never considered and after that just points fingers at people and places hoping for the best. That's the only concrete info about her plans, cunning and resourcefulness we have, and it doesn't look good. Resources look about the same (both villians have intimate knowledge with some way of gaining godhood, Amelyssans is simpler but she doesn't have her own armies, or even deals that one can reliably hope to last). She has a higher competence score due to her arrangements mysteriously not failing (and I concede it just so that I do not have to find appropiate wording for argument based on Bayes rule).
All together it's 3-1 (or 4-2) for Irenicus, we have a victor.
And Amelyssan talked to some people, got lots of them into a trap which she fell into herself (most laughable mistake in all three games), got saved by random event she never considered and after that just points fingers at people and places hoping for the best.
C'mon man, this is so laughable that I kinda want to go into Edwin mode and give an abrasive and sarcastic shutdown of this idea myself. So.... Irenicus gets caught which was NOT at all his design, and you excuse this as insignificant. Melissan is in Saradush that is PART of her plan and you think it is a mistake? Especially since the idea of her being "trapped" is pure speculation on your part... and an especially silly one in the light of the fact that she teleports the first time you meet her.
we see a plenty, first-hand evidence of how he cunningly incorporates imprisonment into his plans, how he uses Drow, golems and all manner of creatures from the lower planes to be his personal army.
Melissan does the same... in fact she uses YOU to be her own personal army, not to mention ALL the most powerful Bhaalspawn.
I would like to point everyone posting in this thread to this other thread.
Ad hominem attacks and personal insults are not an acceptable form of debate. @Edwin_Odesseiron, your impersonation of the Red Wizard is admirable, but make certain you aren't simply using that as an excuse to insult people without reprisal. Not everyone can tell the difference, but I can, and I don't find it amusing.
Comments
Lets see what she was up against... she is one human mage/cleric/deathstalker against the 7 most powerful Bhaalspawn (charname, Balthazaar, Illesera, Yaga-Shura, Sendai, Abazigal and Gromnir... and that only if you don't count Imoen and perhaps even Sarevok)
In the end she faces ONE (maybe three or four if you want to push it)
All this while disregarding the HUNDREDS of other Bhaalspawn all with more personal power than her... who she tricked into banding together to stay safe but actually managed to kill them... ALL of them (save for Viekang)
Then she became more powerful than all of them, despite starting at a clear disadvantage in terms of the natural, personal power that she was born with. She didn't inherit the essence of the god of murder... she earned it.
How is that possibly "never close"?
His best in-game factor that sets him above the other villains, is that he can join your group! AND make amends, with a change of heart and aligment! I like it a lot when bad people are given the chance to repent, especially if they use it wisely and with truth/honesty. Fantasy is superior to real life in just two things: 1) Bad people can be forgiven and given a second chance. 2) There is always a save/load when you faq up everything.
Now about the others... Irenicus was barely ok for me. Twisted (torturing others, putting them in jars, not allowing them to die), megalomaniac (same as sarevok, if not more deluded and grandiose), senseless (pain of subjects, experiments)... The man is a fake. He says he loved that queen, yet his garden was filled with concubine dryads! That queen gives him the chance of reunion, too, even at the epitome of his cruelty and damage done, and he lets it fly! I cannot decide if he lost his love because he became paranoid/twisted on the way, or simply was from the very start under self illusion that he ever even loved. For me, a villain without feelings, is not a villain at all. As a saying goes, concerning another villain; "When a man learns to love, he must bear the risk of hatred". And a villain who has that one time given *luxury* to make amends and doesn't, is even more pitiful than trash. Sorry, Irenicus lovers. The man cannot be helped. He had it coming by himself.
Now about that freak. That bitch! The woman reminded me pretty much of my ex! Faking good intentions and good alignment in order to get close to you! Chatting with others, even rivals, giving them wrong or false, or wrong AND false, advice! Setting others on you, and you discovering that on the way! Her worshipping an evil deity. Her being the epitome of all women's dark side; treacherous, nefarious, using subterfuge to full extent, false niceties to charm you and blind you (for inflicting one sided feelings like friendship, love, or even simple belief to her words), playing with others (Dorn Il Khan, Balthazar), toying with their sanity and their active threats... The woman is a monster! She even betrayed a *God*! Her utmost plan had been from the very beginning, to steal from you, or you, from yours, or yours! And happily dangerously destroy everything around you, especially your inheritence, world, and fellow people. I simply fail to comrehend how or why such things can even be called a human. In game or otherwise. And i will never understand how or why some people even like such traits, aspects, characters and personalities... Be they fictional or not. For me, it was very fitting for her, being the final, REAL villain. Made a lot of sense, under ALL scopes. Plus, she was so evil and miserable, that she did not even have any affair; Irenicus had his hoes, and Sarevok his two girls. That ugly hug was even depraved of a companion, even as a decorative and disposeable tool, like that poor soul Solaufein... VERY, fitting. As was her end.
Sarevok finally was able to damage us the most. The whole dopplegangers thing, that freakish, twisted nightmare, was real sick. All of our childhood friends and people we remembered fondly, revealed to be fakes, turned into twisted, grotesque monsters, trying to squeeze our very lives out of us! They threw us injustly into a dungeon cell, in a creepy underground compartment, and all of our friends were waiting in ambush in darkness for us to come, trying to free ourselves from a false sentence. This single chapter in BG1 alone, was the sickest, cruelest, most maddening single thing, i have EVER experienced in a videogame EVER.
And that beauty, Tamoko... A lady warrior with "asian" features and cute, playful voice? Sarevok, you lucky bastard! Even Tamoko alone would suffice for him having experienced a harsh life. Too bad his ambitions proved more important than her...
Your ex sounds like a keeper!
Was your ex also seemingly immune to "Know Alignment"? I hear that is the most important spell to cast in the dating world.
The problem here is that you're confusing her being close with being physically close. If you are supposed to do an obstacle cource and you manage to beat 9 out of 10 of the obstacles with ease, but then you are faced with an insanely difficult obstacle which you have less than 1% chance of beating with all of your efforts - you were not close.
Or let's say you're in a chess tournament, and by carefully planning your stats you manage to face easy opponents all the way to the grand final - but by doing so you now face the actually best chess player of them all, and it's a win-or-nothing tournament. That's not being close. Or particularly smart.
Don't let the fact that she was one of the two (well three) final Bhaalspawns fool you into thinking that she was close. It was a win-or-nothing game, and she ended up with the worst possible opposition.
If she truly was the brilliant masterplanner you accuse her of being, she wouldn't have let you get half of the essence. She wouldn't have let you get to the Throne. Any other final Bhaalspawn would have been easier - seeing how you dispatched them from within their own fortresses, with their own armies and traps and arenas.
At the start of ToB she could've played in a lot of different ways. At the end of ToB she's facing the biggest challenge she ever could - and it was nor very difficult to figure out that it was going to happen. She played her hand so that when you face her in ToB, she is - at that very point, considering everything that had happened and could happen - as far away from claiming the power for herself as she possibly could.
@Tenrecc, do try to suppress your hateful viewpoints to our beloved demi-Goddess Amelyssan. I am getting incredibly offended by your language towards her great achievements. Just because you don't respect them does not mean they were poor in planning or execution. Every villain has a right to be heard and respected.
On a serious note, your ignorance is an affront to all I stand for. Amelyssan figured she'd be stronger than you. Since this isn't an exact science (after all, how often does this happen?) she had no way of EXACTLY knowing what would happen. By all rights, she SHOULD have been more powerful than you. Except, when prophecy works against you, not much you can do, eh?
She did nothing wrong. Flawless planning, and nothing she could have done differently would have allowed the outcome to play out any differently, either. Whereas Sarevok had completely the wrong ritual, for starters, so his plan was a bust before it even started. And Irenipuss (brilliant, whoever said that first, brilliantly brilliant and you have my respect) didn't kill you when he had a perfect chance, what with you lying soulless in a tube and the rest of the party incapacitated and all. Boo hoo.
Your chess analogy is bogus. If I played chess with 99 opponents and beat them all (absorbing their intellect as I won), by all universal logic and laws, I should beat the 100th player because I now have the intelligence of myself+another 99 souls.
Although, if I absorbed the "intellect" of 99 forum users, it would probably lower my capabilities and I would lose horribly.
In fact, that's probably what happened to her. By absorbing the ineptitude of the dead Bhaalspawn, she made herself weaker and succumbed to charname and his party. Bah! Checkmate!
I don't know if Amelyssan stoped at one point to check mainchar's history and achievements and tried to consider that what she had might not be enough.
I'm not sure however. Not once in ToB did I see lightning strikes or hear a song of Queen.
It was no big mystery that you were the strongest of them all. At the very least it should've been pretty clear once you started strutting into the enemies strongholds and slayed them on their own turfs. But once again, if she really were as brilliant as you claim, she would have at least done some effort to measure your strength and capabilities. Really? She could've left you to your own (lesser chance of successfully killing them), she could have set up a trap (since you were following her whims), she could have tried to warn the Five in some way (having them ganging up on you would've been way more of a challenge than Amelyssan in the Throne), she could have done her best to prevent you from leaving Saradush (being slayed by an immortal Yaga-Shura).
There was a lot she could have done that would have given her better odds of actually achieving her goal. But what does she do? Help you as well as she can while you kill her last chances of accomplishing something. True, but that's not how it works. The Bhaal essence is shared between all the remaining Bhaalspawns. That's why you were supposed to get Bhaalpowers in ToB (and why the mods are there for it) but they removed it because it was too overlapping with HLAs.
And even if you example were true, the options were between You+99 souls VS the Grandmaster of Chess and You+99 souls VS a lesser chessplayer. The fact is that she ended up with the greatest challenge of them all, and the fact that she didn't foresee this or made any effort at all to change it shows that she's not smart or capable at all: she played her entire hand wrong from the start.
On top of that she was able to lead HUNDREDS of weaker Bhaalspawn to their deaths as well, thinning the field even more.
Ahh, memories...
Amelyssan was going to loose. Hard. She locked herself is Saradush governed by Gromnir with Yaga Shura at the gates. Fireballs flying through the sky hitting random locations that might just be where she is standing. Gromnir KNEW her plan, had the power and the will to execute her that very moment when charname interrupted. That was checkmate in one move with two possible variations. She got away only because of random variables interfering, ones she could not forsee.
Let's also not forget that Gromnir, *half-ogre warrior* deduced her plan. Seriously. That is strong evidence that would suggest that every other bhaalspawn that means something also knew something, but just didn't care because eradication of everyone else was also their agenda. Anyone who wanted to see the bhaalspawn dead would have their "plan" fullfilled in the next few years, she just sped up the process. Manipulating charname into killing the five could be accomplished by 10 year old. Maybe even it's not really manipulation - she tells you what she wants and you do it because you want it too. If she didn't hide cher character, 90% says nothing would have changed (I'd estimate only 1 in 10 people use detect alignement at all except for that one paladin stronghold quest), and the remainder would have likely killed all the bhaalspawn anyway without killing her because she is a good source of info and didn't commit any crime we could see.
And finally back to my point about her plan plainly sucking - it depended on succesfull bluffs. Lots of them. Many of which when failed meaned her imminent death. And even with Charisma of 21 (as her buffed out version in Ascension after absorbing all the bhaalspawn has) and all skill points put into bluff (AD&D had those) she was going on equal footing against the most powerfull, and she might have rolled a 1. She succeeded, but didn't deserve the victory with a gameplan like that.
I dread fighting Sarevok; I look forward to fighting Irenicus. Both are great.
And the thing is, not one of them actually understands her plan, from the looks of it. If that alone isn't proof of Amelyssan's sheer brilliance, I don't know what is.
Deltharis, Amelyssan was never "trapped" in Saradush. You DO realise she was playing Bhaalspawn against Bhaalspawn, right? Yaga Shura was as much her puppet as anyone. Him attacking the city WAS her plan. And Gromnir seeing her for being evil was because (as we can learn in our dream in BG2) "a fool often sees what a scholar does not." Even Bhaal himself was blind to Amelyssan's true nature, as he entrusted her to raise him. So unless you claim Gromnir is smarter than absolutely everyone, including Bhaal himself, then your point is moot.
And Tenrecc, you seem obsessed with this idea that she made a grievous error in fighting charname, what with him being the strongest Bhaalspawn and all. You're wrong on every imaginable level. Firstly, at his random appearance, she could not have known charname's capabilities. But, he teleported into a city which was magically sealed, AND defeated Gromnir's guards (as well as had a reputation already), so it was safe to assume he was at least capable enough to send on the task of defeating Gromnir. This is masterful strategy on her behalf, at half a moment's notice, she saw an opportunity and snapped it up. Thinking on her feet as well as long-term plans? Amelyssan, villain be thy name.
A Bhaalspawn slaying his kin doesn't transfer the power to the Bhaalspawn. If that was the case, can you imagine how powerful charname would have been the second he defeated Sarevok? And the unimaginable power he would have immediately attained after slaying each of the five? What happens is, the essence goes back to the source, and once all the essences are there (meaning all the Bhaalspawn are dead) the High Priestess (Amelyssan) was charged to perform the ritual fusing these essence into resurrecting Bhaal.
As each Bhaalspawn died, Amelyssan absorbed their essence at the Throne of Blood (Bhaal's throne, the location of the final battle.) Thus, with each death, she was getting stronger and stronger.
She didn't *choose* to fight the strongest Bhaalspawn. It only makes sense that the strongest would remain standing last. Charname happened to be it. If charname was slain by another on his quest, then it would have been someone else. But, it didn't matter WHO it was, because, by all rights, Amelyssan SHOULD have had more power than any of them after absorbing the essences of the fallen. That's what you seem to be missing. It didn't matter who the last was: By all rights, she should have been many times stronger than any of them.
And as Boo pointed out, she maneuvered the deaths of at least 6 of the most powerful Bhaalspawn without lifting a finger (and many weaker ones on top of that) whilst being only a human. She needed someone capable to do her bidding, not the likes of Viekang or Alexander.
Thus, her demise had nothing to do with poor planning (unlike Sarevok and Irenicus) . It had ONLY to do with the fact that she was simply outpunched by charname and co at the end. This was not a predictable outcome. By all logic, it should never have happened. Thus, she was the most capable villain of them all, and certainly achieved the most power of any of them.
And do not overuse the word "puppet". That metaphore has many implications, and many do not fit what Amelyssan did. When dealing with the most powerfull she was the puppet - they all wished for the same end result (only one child of bhaal standing), and they had the power. She was just prodding them slightly to get there the way she wanted it, though it wouldn't have really mattered.
Why Bhaal chose her, we do not know. Or have only her word for her, if even that. Man, I wish there was some transcript for easy reference, my memory of dialogue specifics is not that good. What does she say about the begginings? I have a few arguments half-formed, but I'd prefer not to make my case on my imagination. There was something about her being high priestess, but was she the only one? Was any/all child of bhaal placed in her hands by plan or did she just assume that role? Does she say she planned betrelay from the beggining or did she come up with it later (and can we belive her if she says the former)? What was Bhaals original plan for her?
Yes, gotta give her some points here, she did use the new resource nicely. There are a few ways to lessen the impact of that - what was her other choice? Powerfull child of Bhaal teleported into teleportation-banned city. Was she to duel him? You jest. Wildcard 6th child of power couldn't also be simply ignored, option ruled out by default. Trying to get him on her side was the only thing that made sense AND the easiest one to accomplish. One could almost say that all she did was not to make a mistake. It's still something, but not that much.
Didn't she wait untill all of them were dead? I mean, that would be the reason why she is still absorbing when charname enters the room. Even when charname fights her. If all she was getting in that last of moments was essence of Balthazar well... Essence of bhaal isn't the stuff it is said to be then, and when she finished she wouldn't be even one order of magnitude stronger. You assume that children of bhaal can only fight solo, and only children of bhaal can eliminate other children. In that scenario yes, by definition the one that remained would be the strongest. It seems to be how the games portray them.
it is possible that there was no way to lay a trap with two or more of them together against common foe - but it's the realm of thought experiment, and it is possible that it might have been done but Amelyssan wasn't good enough to pull it through.
Or better, getting unrelated to bhaal henchmen that would help one fight other children of bhaal and betraying at the crucial moment. Like, say, Yoshimo did. Ok, his betrayal might have been better timed, probably bad wording of Geas. Still, the idea was spot on.
Ultimately, looking just at the endgame, Irenicus also was simply outpunched by charname at Tree of Life. By all logic they shouldn't even have that encounter though, with the amount of raw power he put in protecting the place. Artifact-level illusion, avatar-of-god level seal on the door, statue-based lock and putting his godhood-sucking bugs on unreachable branches as the icing. Him being outpunched is the final step, not the one and only thing he counted on when encountering resistance. He could have more easily predicted it, yes, but put unimaginably lots of effort to making sure he wouldn't even need to check it. And well, he was as close to godhood as Amelyssan had been, it's just charname interrupted sooner in terms of his power level due to metagame reasons we can ignore.
But once again, even if she wasn't smart enough to do some research on potentially dangerous Bhaalspawns, it should have been pretty clear once you started to strutt into their fortresses and killing them in their own turfs, with their own armies and traps and behind their own doors. Obviously it did matter. Obviously you were many times stronger than all the others, and obviously you would pose a greater threat to her if facing her in the Throne. No matter how you look at it, she ended up with the greatest opposition possible, which is not a hallmark of a genius master planner. But that's the problem - it's not an ONLY. Just because you managed to bypass 500 obstacles and failed on the last didn't mean you were close, and if that last one was the most difficult you could possibly face at that point in time but you had opportunitues to deal with it earlier, it doesn't mean you were capable or smart in anyway.
You're either saying that she's unable to gauge the strength of a guy who has recklessly turned Faerun upside down, killing things like, oh say, countless demons and dragons and the Prince of Demons, as well as easily dispatching the five in front of her very eyes OR she was unable to make any adjustment in her plan, such as say, setting you up for a trap or something (even not helping you at all would've been a smarter move) OR she's too naive and just belives that because she got her hand on some Essence, it doesn't matter who of the Bhaalspawns she ends up facing - which was not only wrong, but definitely not the characteristics of a brilliant master planner.
She didn't *choose* to fight the strongest Bhaalspawn. It only makes sense that the strongest would remain standing last. Charname happened to be it. If charname was slain by another on his quest, then it would have been someone else. But, it didn't matter WHO it was, because, by all rights, Amelyssan SHOULD have had more power than any of them after absorbing the essences of the fallen. That's what you seem to be missing. It didn't matter who the last was: By all rights, she should have been many times stronger than any of them.
And as Boo pointed out, she maneuvered the deaths of at least 6 of the most powerful Bhaalspawn without lifting a finger (and many weaker ones on top of that) whilst being only a human. She needed someone capable to do her bidding, not the likes of Viekang or Alexander.
Her success wasn't in her hand either. If Charname had taken a few minutes longer to reach Gromnir, then she would have been executed by the half-orc. Amelysan had no influence on that. Pure luck on her part.
Do you know why Charname arrived when he did?
Because his pocket plane took him where he needed to be to fulfill his destiny. His destiny was the prophecy of Alaundo, which Charname got explained to him by Solar. Charname knew from an early point in ToB that he would succeed or at least be the person deciding the fate of Bhaals essence.
Whatever Amelysan did had no effect on Charname. He would have reached Bhaals throne as the last one with or without her.
As a mastermind Amelysan should have stayed current on the prophecy of Alaundo. As a former high priestess she surely had some method of asking Celestials what it meant. But she did not.
The very fact that the end is already known makes Amelysan not a villain but a roadblock.
Just a criticize, you forget to call the other people that disagree with you of "simians"!! That's an important part for an effective offensive banter!
well, my 2 cents on this:
Take all the events of Throne of Bhaal except the final battle with Amelyssan, if we remove Melissa from the game in the very start, would the story line still flow normally?
Could Grommnir II Khan had some inf about Yaga-Shura, being an War Lord and all, so we could get the knowledge of where is yaga-shura weak point from him? Could we find another NPC or event to send us to Balthazar's Oasis?
I can see ToB work without Amelyssan in the game with just some adjustments of a few strings and banters, the other 2 major enemies are more deeply introduced in the game.
- Amelyssan sucks because maybe this, and if that and something this and *I completely didn't even understand what was going on in the game.* You people are assuming way too many things and giving me nothing concrete.
I can give you CONCRETE evidence where Sarevok and Irenicus failed, and I have many times over. The most glaring ones were:
- Sarevok's entire scheme to ascend was wrong, therefore, even if he won, his efforts were futile. AND to let charname go unchecked after he caused so much turmoil in mines/camps/etc. Utter failure.
- Irenicus leaving charname and co alive post-soul transfusion in Spellhold, where literally, LITERALLY another spell or two and they'd all have been dealt with permanently. AND casting spells to kill a few petty thieves in the middle of a promenade in a magic-hating city, thus putting himself in a MUCH harder position. He got SO MANY forces involved in his plan when all it should have been was capturing two pathetic Bhaalspawn and taking their souls quietly. Utter failure.
So even IF some of these accusations against Amelyssan's competency were true (which they are not, but if) she had NEVER made such glaring, obvious oversights. Therefore, even if she did make SOME mistakes (she didn't, but if) they were nowhere near to the caliber of the other two bumbling fools. Their mistakes are so obviously stupid that it's laughable.
So pointing out Amelyssan's alleged incompetencies is not enough. We do have a basis for comparison here (hence the name of the thread). And when we compare, we see that the other two's mistakes far outweigh Amelyssan's alleged ones. Thus, even if all three were crappy villains, it can be said she's the least crappy of all, which makes her superior.
Irenicus can never be the greatest villain of them because of obvious "wtf are you doing?" type of a mistake. Sarevok, the same.
That leaves us with only one option. I'll have a little faith and leave it to you simians to figure out who.
His underestimation of charname was a mistake, but i can't blame him much since his last encounter with him/her, he/she was just a puppy that was running scared. By the time comes that charname become a threat, he saw him/her as a test rather than the bug he thinks charname is.
About Irenicus, it was Bodhi's idiocy that let charname live past that encounter. Also, involment of shadow thieves was his own doing, and part of his plan.
Your entire "failure" rant, unless in case of Irenicus, is also based on nothing concrete. It's the very essence of ifs - if he did that, if he didn't do that he would have been better off. In case of killing the charname I would even agree with that, but these are NOT concretes.
And these are not failures. These are setbacks. Things that his strategy took into consideration, things we can see how well he deals with. Failure implies the end - and Irenicus got his endgame, same as Amelyssan.
Let's see again what our metric is:
"in terms of their cunning, competence, plans, resources, resourcefulness"
Mistakes you mention only weaken competence component, and even that not so much seeing as competence ultimately is measured by consequences, and endgame situation was the same. Of the remainder we see a plenty, first-hand evidence of how he cunningly incorporates imprisonment into his plans, how he uses Drow, golems and all manner of creatures from the lower planes to be his personal army, how he puts roadblocks only devine intervention can overcome.
And Amelyssan talked to some people, got lots of them into a trap which she fell into herself (most laughable mistake in all three games), got saved by random event she never considered and after that just points fingers at people and places hoping for the best. That's the only concrete info about her plans, cunning and resourcefulness we have, and it doesn't look good. Resources look about the same (both villians have intimate knowledge with some way of gaining godhood, Amelyssans is simpler but she doesn't have her own armies, or even deals that one can reliably hope to last). She has a higher competence score due to her arrangements mysteriously not failing (and I concede it just so that I do not have to find appropiate wording for argument based on Bayes rule).
All together it's 3-1 (or 4-2) for Irenicus, we have a victor.
So.... Irenicus gets caught which was NOT at all his design, and you excuse this as insignificant. Melissan is in Saradush that is PART of her plan and you think it is a mistake? Especially since the idea of her being "trapped" is pure speculation on your part... and an especially silly one in the light of the fact that she teleports the first time you meet her. Melissan does the same... in fact she uses YOU to be her own personal army, not to mention ALL the most powerful Bhaalspawn.
Ad hominem attacks and personal insults are not an acceptable form of debate. @Edwin_Odesseiron, your impersonation of the Red Wizard is admirable, but make certain you aren't simply using that as an excuse to insult people without reprisal. Not everyone can tell the difference, but I can, and I don't find it amusing.
Carry on, a bit more civilly please.