@bman86 I think its hard to argue that at the heights of their power Irenicus would have beaten Amelyssan. Irenicus is defeated by basically a level 16-20 party and the fight is easier for most people than the one against Melissan in which your characters are well into the 30s in terms of levels.
Sarevok... isn't even comparable. However, I feel like he was a threat that was nipped in the bud, though it didn't feel that way at the time. If he had perhaps faced a few more less resourceful Bhaalspawn first he would have been as strong as Melissan.
@deltago All interesting points. However my Paladin DID cast detect evil and know alignment, and they both said she was not-evil and good respectively. Same with Aerie. Plus besides, not even Boo suspected anything, and we all know how he knew something was up with Yoshimo from the start
I also thought it was always kinda weird that he let Bodhi play with you like a Saturday morning cartoon villain. Surely he would know her well enough to not rely on that alone to deal with what is clearly a steadily growing threat. Also the fact that he got captured in Spellhold in the first place was kind of dumb. Not to mention the fact that he opened up his base of operations not only beneath a major city like Athkatla (this can be justified) but a. he opened it with his vampire sister in a city where magic is illegal.... and he is a mage. b. not only did he do that... but he set up shop underneath the largest trade center in the region
It would be like a a Muslim and a Jew opening up a mixed temple in Castille during the Inquisition.
Still, you can nitpick anything. This doesn't mean that I think Irenicus was dumb/a bad character. My point is more that Melissan is the most impressive and certainly underrated, not that Irenicus was a bad villain. I think he was a better character, but Melissan was a more dangerous villain.
@bman86 I think its hard to argue that at the heights of their power Irenicus would have beaten Amelyssan. Irenicus is defeated by basically a level 16-20 party and the fight is easier for most people than the one against Melissan in which your characters are well into the 30s in terms of levels.
Sarevok... isn't even comparable. However, I feel like he was a thread that nipped in the bud, though it didn't feel that way at the time. If he had perhaps faced a few more less resourceful Bhaalspawn first he would have been as strong as Melissan.
They're characters no different to us. What would have Irenicus or Sarevok ahve looked like with similar experience/levels? In fact, we can have Sarevok as a level 30 companion during the Melissan slaying, and that's with his power much reduced
I don't know man, she just wasn't threatening until she lucked out and got some godly powers as a result of some highly improbable scheme.
Well, I guess you can say anything involves luck though. Also I don't know anyone who could solo Melissan with a level 35 Sarevok. The fact is that even as that Sarevok was stronger than the one you defeated in Baldur's Gate, he still couldn't handle Melissan at the heigh of his powers.
Well, I guess you can say anything involves luck though. Also I don't know anyone who could solo Melissan with a level 35 Sarevok. The fact is that even as that Sarevok was stronger than the one you defeated in Baldur's Gate, he still couldn't handle Melissan at the heigh of his powers.
his powers are much reduced though, so who can say? That's just Sarevok too. Irenicus is a whole different ball game. Tack some levels/experience on to Irenicus and see the levels of badassery come out.
The other point is that you don't really solo Melissan, she still has all those goons around during the battle
I also thought it was always kinda weird that he let Bodhi play with you like a Saturday morning cartoon villain. Surely he would know her well enough to not rely on that alone to deal with what is clearly a steadily growing threat. Also the fact that he got captured in Spellhold in the first place was kind of dumb. Not to mention the fact that he opened up his base of operations not only beneath a major city like Athkatla (this can be justified) but a. he opened it with his vampire sister in a city where magic is illegal.... and he is a mage. b. not only did he do that... but he set up shop underneath the largest trade center in the region
It would be like a a Muslim and a Jew opening up a mixed temple in Castille during the Inquisition.
Still, you can nitpick anything. This doesn't mean that I think Irenicus was dumb/a bad character. My point is more that Melissan is the most impressive and certainly underrated, not that Irenicus was a bad villain. I think he was a better character, but Melissan was a more dangerous villain.
But you still weren't a threat to him. You only became a threat when you wandered into high forest looking for what he took from you. You were beneath him the entire game. You were not his equal. Why should he waste time on you?
He set up shop in Athkatla because he needed pawns to fuel his magic. As spoiler free as possible, think of the Spellhold scene and how many he needed to sacrifice just to cast the spell. He needed to get that some how and overtaking a large city's underworld while doing so is pretty bad ass if you ask me. (Think of what it took to finance his Chateau and where he could get the money from)
When the heat was on him in Athkatla however, he moved his base of operation to a place where he knew he wouldn't be interrupted. He was counting on the Cowled Wizards to send him to Spellhold so he could take it over easily.
His story and his villainous acts don't revolve around you. You were just this pitiful creature he used to get what he needed and moved on. That's what makes him a great villain. It wasn't about you. It never was.
She is the *only* one who doesn't openly declare herself as an enemy until crunch time, well into her plot, and manipulates you into killing the others as a part of said plot. In fact, not only does she do this, but she does it brilliantly, by actually pretending to be a force of good. She knows when to interfere and "guide" you, and knows when to let you make your own choices. Her motives seem to make sense, and she just seems willing to help the various Bhaalspawn. Of course, her true nature is revealed later.
Now, this is probably more subjective than you'd imagine. I knew she was the big arch enemy the very second I laid eyes on her, and had I been given the opportunity I'd have gutted her right in the streets of Saradush.
What played out after that was just an annoying attempt to fool me, where she did her things and I played along, but mostly I was just wanting to slap her in the face and tell her to get to the action.
So no. To me she was everything but brilliant, she was clumsy and idiotic enough to think that she could fool me, and the only thing stopped her from being punished for it was (RP wise) that I wanted her help to find and kill the other Bhaalspawns first. She was more of a comical relief than a brilliant masteplanner, and lightyears below Sarevok and Irenicus in villain-ness.
Sarevok is a good villain. A very good villain. He's a real villain, in some sense, because he has real plots, real conspiracies, leaves real notes and doesn't get weirdly interested in you for no reason at all. He also sort of comes out of the shadows during the game, as you first doesn't even know there is an arch enemy, just that Gorion got chopped down by a heavily armored badass (one of my friend claimed he had "killed one of them", thinking he was just a normal enemy). He has a great buildup and a perfect villain for that game.
Irenicus, however, is the villain of villains. He comes out boasting and showcasing and has the skill to back it up. The voice actor does an insanely good job in keeping him interesting too. Sure, he's a bit predictable and doesn't have the aura of mystery Sarevok does, but he never really tries to either.
What makes Irenicus the best villain is what he does. He tortures you. He plays with you. He steals your soul and strength. He kills your beloved half-sister. And all while he does this he reminds you that you are so far beneath him, just a simple test subject, just a simple tool, something not even worth dispatching by himself, like handing over trash for the butler to take care of.
When you face him in hell you hate him. Not your character. You. You want him dead, not because he's an inconvenicene, but because he wants you dead, but because you just fucking hate him. And finally killing him is the best feeling in the entire series.
That's what a good villain does to you. He makes you emotionally invested. And for me, Irenicus did. In a way Sarevok couldn't, Mellisan definitely couldn't, and no other villain in any series came close to either.
All the Irenicus fanboys are making me laugh. Boo, you are making some great points, in line with my own style of thinking on the matter.
But the Irenicus/Sarevok fans: Seriously? Where Irenicus/Sarevok didn't succeed, it's because of X reason, but where Amelyssan did, it's because of luck? Give me a break. Can't be due to meticulous planning, right?
Deltago, you can cast detect evil/know alignment on Amelyssan and it does not out her. THAT'S what I was saying. She covers every single angle, from the smallest detail, such as *concealing her true alignment* to all the bigger things. If she was outed so easily, she'd be a poor villain indeed.
Amelyssan only failed because she got punched harder than she could punch, as Boo so eloquently put it. She didn't fail due to bad scheming/poor oversights as is the case with Sarevok and Irenicus after him (who, as an intelligent mage, should have learned a lesson or two from the failure of his predecessor.)
As for the who would win argument? Well, what are we even talking about here? That's the stupidest argument possible and it's off topic to boot. Sarevok died prematurely. Why? Because he wasn't as smart as he should have been. His plans failed. Irenicus died prematurely also. Why? Because he wasn't as smart as he should have been. His plans failed. Amelyssan also died prematurely, due to simply being overpowered, there was literally nothing more she could have done to beat charname than she already did.
So Sarevok at time of death (even if you count his level 30+ form at the end of TOB) would lose to Amelyssan at her time of death. Irenicus at his time of death would also lose to Amelyssan at her time of death.
She would wipe the floor with both of them even if it was 2 VS 1. This isn't just because she is a higher level, but because she lived long enough to achieve said higher level. Why? Because she's the most ruthless, cunning villain of the series, and eats the other two for breakfast in terms of power, plans and schemes.
The other two underestimated charname's power - Amelyssan *used* it.
But, you give one guy a great backstory, make the other guy a joinable NPC, and people live in denial, I suppose. Just goes to show you don't actually have to be the greatest at anything in life - Just have a hell of a personality, and everyone will make you seem like you are the best, even if all facts point against it.
But, you give one guy a great backstory, make the other guy a joinable NPC, and people live in denial, I suppose. Just goes to show you don't actually have to be the greatest at anything in life - Just have a hell of a personality, and everyone will make you seem like you are the best, even if all facts point against it.
There's no need to insult people just because they don't share your point of view in the matter. Objectively, the only thing Melissan managed was to get her underlings killed. At least Sarevok had you chasing ghosts and Irenicus managed to steal your soul - if only temporarily.
When you face him in hell you hate him. Not your character. You. You want him dead, not because he's an inconvenicene, but because he wants you dead, but because you just fucking hate him. And finally killing him is the best feeling in the entire series.
That's what a good villain does to you. He makes you emotionally invested. And for me, Irenicus did. In a way Sarevok couldn't, Mellisan definitely couldn't, and no other villain in any series came close to either.
You may have suspected Amelyssan, but that's because this is a game and it is a common thing for a villain to be plainly in front of your eyes. From an RP perspective, Amelyssan kept charname tagging along each time, doing a little bit more for her, a little bit more, using charname's own power against him, essentially, to fuel her goals.
Irenicus makes you hate him, yes. That doesn't make him a great villain. Just like insulting a dragon doesn't make you a badass, (it makes you an idiot), simply getting an emotional response doesn't a great villain make.
He has too many oversights and makes too many mistakes. Read above for all of them.
The reason you don't hate Amelyssan despite all she does to you is a hallmark of how utterly brilliant she is. She twists you this way and that unwittignly, and the only reason you don't hate her is because you don't *know*. While Irenicus is open with his disdain towards you, she is not. He annoys you to hell (literally), whereas she acts as a friend and benefactor for the whole game and turns on you at the correct moment.
And in SOA, your whole game is Irenicus. Irenicus this, Irenicus that. You are hunting Irenicus and everything is geared towards that. So you have all this time to build up your frustration against him because you are so FOCUSED on it and the game is so centered around him.
In TOB, Amelyssan is not the pint of focus. At all. You have SO many other things to worry about and so much of your emotions are directed elsewhere that she becomes nearly an afterthought. And what's the brilliant part? She's the one that makes you focus on everything BUT her. So you have no time to be invested in her emotionally, because she doesn't *want* you to be.
Lastly, I didn't offend anyone. I am merely saying that personality wins out over actual facts, which is apparently true. No one can point out any mistakes Amelyssan makes (because she doesn't) and yet don't claim her as the most ruthless villain of them all. That's denial, friend, and most certainly not an insult.
And by the way - "She gets her underlings killed" ? I am beginning to think you weren't following the plot or didn't know what was going on. That's what was SUPPOSED to happen. Everything - EVERYTHING (except the final battle) worked out *exactly* as she planned.
Unlike the other two, whose incompetence shone through and allowed charname to win. By the time charname reached Amelyssan, he was just too powerful. He won because he hit harder than she could hit. Simple as that.
The other two lost because of oversights and poor decision making.
When you face him in hell you hate him. Not your character. You. You want him dead, not because he's an inconvenicene, but because he wants you dead, but because you just fucking hate him. And finally killing him is the best feeling in the entire series.
That's what a good villain does to you. He makes you emotionally invested. And for me, Irenicus did. In a way Sarevok couldn't, Mellisan definitely couldn't, and no other villain in any series came close to either.
You may have suspected Amelyssan, but that's because this is a game and it is a common thing for a villain to be plainly in front of your eyes. From an RP perspective, Amelyssan kept charname tagging along each time, doing a little bit more for her, a little bit more, using charname's own power against him, essentially, to fuel her goals.
Like I said before, this is what I think a lot of people are missing. You and I, the players, understand that she is going to be a villain of some sort because we *know* it is a game and we have meta-knowledge about how stories have been told through the years. In the eyes of charname it is a different story. I know many will argue that the plot was "railroaded" and that the game gave you no choice but to follow Melissan's plan, but that isn't the point. In the game's timeline, she *did* have everyone fooled.
Also I'm confused about how her underlings dying was a flaw in her plan. That is not true. That WAS her plan.
Let me offer my perspective on the two: Irenicus failed, because everything that shouldn't have failed did. He had great base in one of the largest cities where he could without suspicion get every component he needed. He operated there for quite some time judging by his progress. And then Bodhi pissed off Shadow Thieves, and they decided to do full-scale assault, something they probably never did before and never will ever after. And the prisoner he almost completely broke turned out to be skilled thief who worked way out when outsiders knocked every trap and alarm he had. Still, he is victorious in stopping the attack, intercepts his prisoners... And he gets offed by Cowled Wizards. Frustration peaking he replans on the spot. Spellhold. Place designed to keep his kind locked breaks under his will, he continues his experiments closer to the goal than ever in a place where no outside intervention is feasible, and only person interested in doing said intervention is closely tracked. His masterpiece of a trap works, he gets everyone where he needs them and continues with his work. Gets a divine soul and tells his superpowered undead sister to get rid of the bodies. A shame she leaves charname and his team fully equipped in a dungeon. Later under assault by at least 7 mages, 6 of which were supposed to be mental wrecks barely capable of noticing the outside world, he still prevails continuing with his plans knowing that time is his ally seeing how soullessness can consume. Still, to be safe, his plan of escape leads through underdark, with the exit to surface guarded by entire Drow city which he set up for a perfect game against elves. Suldanesselar - despite lack of Drow support he counted on he still kicks the ass of entire elven city, setting up layers of protection that only devine artifact, placed safely in the hands of his sister, can penetrate. Feel safe enough? Not Irenicus, he also locked the gate so well that it would literally take an avatar of god to force it open. And finally hell, him loaded with divine spark, his years of experiencs and directed study on his side against wreck of a spirit whose soul is barely there. He was not supposed to loose that one.
And Melissandre? She almost succeeded because everything that should have failed didn't. Her plan was created on maybes and luck. A good plan may involve counting on two separate events to go how you want it - hers depended on dozens. At every point on her way she was dealing with things way out of her scope. One false move and she would be gone - hell, even all the correct moves with that kind of company didn't give more than 50% chance of survival. She gathered bhaalsapw at Saradush which was a miracle, she got the city under siege knowing that every second a stray ball of fire could hit where she was standing. Any of the five on the way could reveal Melissandres dealing with them, nothing she could do about that. And if charname didn't arrive, what than? Would she be able to convince Yaga-shuras army that she was a friend of their leader when they mindlessly hacked through every single inhabitant? It's not like she could get away than with teleportation wards that only divine could bypass - and if she could so would someone else which would defeat the purpose.
Personally, I prefer Irenicus because he received a much greater deal of characterisation than both Sarevok and Amelyssan. While her planning may have been "perfect", we see so little of Amelyssan that I just do not care about great she may or may not have been. Sarevok, likewise, is only seen a handful of times in BG1 - and while I love the voice acting, he doesn't do much besides whack people around the head.
Irenicus on the other hand has absolutely fantastic voice acting, a great deal of characterisation and development, following a full story arc that makes people care more. Throne of Bhaal was relatively short - just doing Abazigal's lair the other day reminded me of this - in that it is severely padded my the three dragon encounters and the swimming with little other content.
Perhaps if Throne had been longer, Amelyssan developed more I would care more about her, but I just do not. It's like the party characters, I tend to gravitate to the ones who have more to say because you learn more about their personality and what makes them tick. Comparatively I shy away from the quieter and less developed characters because they do not bring enough extra flavour to my game.
@Kurz I agree with everything that you said. However the questions isn't who is the best character, or who is the most memorable or who is the most thought out... it is who is the most menacing villain.
Well, I guess you can say anything involves luck though. Also I don't know anyone who could solo Melissan with a level 35 Sarevok. The fact is that even as that Sarevok was stronger than the one you defeated in Baldur's Gate, he still couldn't handle Melissan at the heigh of his powers.
his powers are much reduced though, so who can say? That's just Sarevok too. Irenicus is a whole different ball game. Tack some levels/experience on to Irenicus and see the levels of badassery come out.
The other point is that you don't really solo Melissan, she still has all those goons around during the battle
The truth is that they are characters. The levels are really a measure of some of their skills. Being higher "level" simply means they have certain skills that the lower level character don't. It would be like saying if someone tacked on a couple of levels to my basketball skills I'd be better than Michael Jordan.
We are discussing this in the context of the game's story, not our real life experience.
IMO, it's not totally fair to compare the villians of two main games with the villian of an expansion. While Irenicus and Sarevok both have 7 episodes to show off what they are made of, Amelyssan has only three episodes, where last one is pure combat.
So according to this, Comparing Irenicus or Sarevok with her is unfair, and probably if she had more space to develop, she could have been the best by far.
But anyway, every character has their own value. For me, Sarevok is the one with higher charisma, Irenicus is the mosrt cruel one, while Amelysan is the smart one.
As for Irenicus, the more I think about it, Irenicus is the worst villain. His mistakes are too many.
Irenicus not only captured the stronger Bhaalspawns (as opposed to finding two weaker ones), but he himself was captured (honestly, casting spells openly and slaughtering thieves in a city which he knew magic is illegal is ridiculous. He could have just teleported away/hidden himself and regrouped his strategy.) Of course, he is apt enough to improvise and get himself out of the situation (high intelligence, low wisdom,) but that doesn't negate the fact that he could have dealt with the situation far better - to the point of not even BEING in such a crappy position in the first place. It wasn't his initial intention to be captured - and he did achieve what he needed to because he is both smart and powerful in the end (at least temporarily). But all that did was make life harder on himself, something a cunning villain would not have to do.
Amelyssan makes no such oversights.
If you really believe Irenicus "got caught", it's hard to believe you weren't playing through lenses as cracked as those of the people you're calling fanboys. He took over Spellhold. If he was capable of that, he could have bombed every Cowled Wizard in Athkatla back to the Stone Age. It's pretty clear from his words and other actions that he allowed himself to be captured, but that simple fact itself is strong evidence of such. It doesn't seem like everything works out precisely as planned, but neither does it ever seem like he's flying by the seat of his pants. Everything he does has the look of either a base plan or a contingency plan set into motion by events unfolding around him. Having functional contingencies, and the foresight to set them up, is one of the most difficult strategic skills to master.
I don't think Amelyssan's strategies succeeded due to good luck, but massive plans like hers that function as designed at minimum benefit from a shortage of bad luck. From a meta perspective, it's unfortunate ToB was just an expansion, because it meant the writers had no choice but to create that type of situation for her; there was no time for her to have setbacks and chances to come back from them. But we can only look at the characters as they are; where some (a lot) of us see the variety of Irenicus' machinations as an indicator that he was the most worthy strategic villain, Amelyssan's relative lack of screen time meant she really couldn't make any mistakes. It's fine for you to favor that aspect of the character, but really, given as much play as Irenicus, it's hard to believe she would have remained so strategically flawless. No one would.
That is a lot of could/should/would. I don't disagree with what you say necessarily, but we are discussing the game as it exists, not what we wish it were.
That is a lot of could/should/would. I don't disagree with what you say necessarily, but we are discussing the game as it exists, not what we wish it were.
I don't know if this is directed at anyone in particular, but it's worth noting that in a lot of ways we do need to theorize about Amelyssan's abilities in a more extended scenario than she receives in order to try and weigh her against the other two. Mainly we only see the end of her efforts, when her plans are well set in motion; it's possible, if not probable, that she had a number of hiccups before the Five coalesced around her ideas and the push towards the end of the prophecy began. It may not seem fair to assume she made mistakes before we see her, or that she would if given more game time, but on the other side it seems illogical that a human being, even a powerful one, would handle things so perfectly over a longer period.
It's kind of like using scientific versus anecdotal evidence. We see enough of Irenicus and Sarevok, and hear enough of their backstories (especially in Irenicus' case), to comprehend their strengths and flaws somewhat more fully. We only get the final chapter of Amelyssan's plan, and her life; all we ever discover about her previously is that she was Bhaal's top priestess, which doesn't really add much once her plan is revealed. It's just not much to go on. So if the question comes down to whether we think she'd have been flawed like other people or was singularly brilliant from go, this will never end and we may as well just go out drinking.
Deltharis, you're wrong from your very first sentence. The rest of it was a struggle to get through.
"Irenicus failed because everything that shouldn't have failed did." Yes. Leaving charname and his entire party alive, well, equipped in the hands of his sister instead of just casting a final spell or two to end charname's life while charname was still trapped in the tube was REALLY bad luck (end sarcasm.) No, it was arrogance. He thought so little of you and underestimated you, and that was his doom.
Amelyssan (not Melisandre) succeeded because she planned everything perfectly and guided it along where needed. Getting everyone to Saradush, firstly. Easily accomplished. The Bhaalspawn were starting to make big advances. People started fearing for their lives. She contacted each one individually and convinced them it would be a safe place to go, a refuge. Using her extreme knowledge of their situation (remember, she knows more about Bhaalspawn than probably any other living person, due to the fact that she was given a mission to resurrect Bhaal,) she played on their fears and offered them a guided solution. Being a child of a dead god would not be easy, and here is someone after all this time to finally make sense of it for you. It's not a miracle. It's just great planning. Manipulating the 5 into working against one another, now THAT is the tricky party. And you said, "what if charname died?" Well.... So what? There is no indication that charname was her be-all-end-all Bhaalspawn. You were just another tool for her, if you died, there would be other tools. She'd manipulate Yaga Shura into it, or Abazigal. Likely, they'd be harder to work with, but she already got that far with them, it would make sense she would see it to completion. Remember: Her goal is to see all Bhaalspawn dead. You dying helps her, not hinders her. If there was one or two Bhaalspawn left (such as Yaga or Abazigal, being the most powerful), she'd have one of the easiest tasks in going to any Tethyrian city and saying "Look at what Yaga Shura did!", amassing an army, and wiping him out. She'd turn on them if she had no other way to kill them.
Spiffy, Irenicus taking over Spellhold is an easier task than fighting them on the streets. Once in Spellhold, he is considered taken by the order, which would get on with other tasks. An uncaptured, loose mage is more dangerous a thing. So he infiltrated from within, and since Spellhold is near impossible to get into, it was the task of killing the wizards that rain it, then blocking it off from the world, as opposed to facing the ENTIRE Cowled Wizard order in a street fight. "Even if we fall, our numbers are many. You will be overwhelmed." It's at that point he surrenders, because he knows it is true. Casting magics and killing people in the street in Athkatla was a stupid thing to do. You're a slobbering fanboy if you claim otherwise. As I said, he did well to recover from this, and ended up taking Imoen and using it to his advantage. High intelligence, low wisdom. But certainly not a calculating, well thought out plan.
Whereas Amelyssan was controlling and running things the entire time. Every move you make in TOB is guided by her. And yes, if there was more time, they would have fleshed out the story, etc. I am not discussing maybe's and what ifs. Only what I have to work with. And what I have to work with is an entirely competent villain in TOB who made zero mistakes, and two others in previous editions who did. It's really as simple as that. Whether you like her or you don't isn't on trial here. Whether she's the best or not, is. And she clearly is.
Because that's my point of view. I don't need to say "In my opinion, she clearly is." It is my opinion by virtue of the fact I said it.
Moreover, both Boo and I have presented cases more than adequately and pointed out flaws in the other two. If a person fails to see fact over their own personal bias towards/against characters, then that is a problem.
If nothing else, these types of threads give me a good insight into what makes people tick. Call it a social experiment, if you must. So far, it has shown me that people, no matter how much solid evidence you hit them with, will always try to reason their way out of it by inventing excuses, stories, etc. If you extend this mentality to other aspects in life, it can be quite concerning.
BUT, this is off-topic. As was your question. Please stick to on-topic discussions only.
@Edwin_Odesseiron It must have been so easy to predict that his bloodthirsty vampire focused-on-escaping-death sister would be bad person to delegate to getting rid of your helpless enemies. Could have seen it coming a mile away -.- And as a side note - as far as vices go, arogance is one of the best for villians to have.
Fighting on the street wasn't smart, yup, no discussion here. [excuse incoming] When you tear down dozens of *insects* that interrupt the work of your life with annoying and unpredictable attack that doesn't fit their MO a man can get carried away and forget where he is.
You try to portray his surrender later as though it was a bad thing, while it was a brilliant manouver, one we can actually see him doing (as opposed to Amelyssans supposed gambits), one that gets to our emotions. Amelyssans betreyal didn't hurt half as much as seeing this guy get what he wants which is an important measure for villians.
And I noticed how you omitted the parts where his preparations were great (basically everything besides those two moments, and for the first of those your case is exactly as good as mine with evidence present) and failed not due his fault.
As for Amelyssans plans where you see her mastermind at work I see someone who does not understand plotting. Events do NOT go as they're planned more often then they do. Her encountering each of the five is exactly such a mistake - each of them is unpredictable enough to try and kill her even if she did make compelling case as to what course of action should they take. If we didn't kill Gromnir he might have went and killed her himself, he certainly hinted that he would like that. And if he didn't Yaga-Shuras army would eventually come in killing everyone including her, I have no reason to belive otherwise and was given no evidence that she had a master plan for that event. She couldn't manipulate him or Abizgail, she has no chance to contact them due to situation she put herself into. She played the trump card that was charname well, but that's just simple luck - each time you reload before killing Yaga-Shura is a world where dice were cruel and Amelissan dies with Saradush before completing her pet project.
And for the guiding us part - we're PCs. We would go and kill them if Amelyssan wasn't there. We would do it even if we weren't the child of Bhaal. Her guidance of charname could easily have been replaced by Boos squeaks, and events would play out roughly the same (with the exception of needing another information sources).
And to your last post - I find it funny that those two paragraphs are universal enough to be said in every discussion, and (as you might imagine) from my point of view they would fit better if directed at you. Especially with all those derogatory comments about different opinions, absolute certainity that you are right and everyone else is just making excuses. Reminds me of Edwin actually, which is fitting.
Edwin, I am not sure that your view equates to fact, and another person's view equates to personal bias. That smacks of arrogance, which is acceptable I suppose if you're writing this all in character?
For interested people, the Wheels of Prophecy mod among other things gives you a lot more opportunity to question Melissan's guidance and wonder about her true objectives. It doesn't alter the ending, but for players who've always felt that their charname is smart/wise enough to suspect and question her, it's definitely a nice touch.
Kurz: My viewpoint equals fact when I am actually presenting factual evidence, and people like Deltharis are making excuses for their own opinion. This is NOT about who you *like* the most, but who is the *best.* People can't seem to separate the two world of emotions and evidence. So, in an effort to help them along (likely futile, but whatever), I present the following:
In the most basic, simple terms, without reams of text:
- Can we point out any glaring mistakes Sarevok makes along the way, which if he didn't make, would likely have led to his victory against charname? Yes. Therefore he cannot be considered the best scheming/conniving/calculating/intelligent villain. (Which is what this thread was asking.)
- Can we point out any glaring mistakes Irenicus makes along the way, which, if he didn't make, would likely have led to his victory against charname? Yes. Therefore he cannot be considered the best scheming/conniving/calculating/intelligent villain. (Which is what this thread was asking.)
- Can we point out any glaring mistakes Amelyssan makes along the way, which, if she didn't make, would likely have led to her victory against charname? No. She did everything correctly, her failure was due to no oversight, no missing points from her plans - she was simply overwhelmed due to the fact that charname was stronger. Therefore, she can be considered the best scheming/conniving/calculating/intelligent villain. (Which is what this thread was asking.)
Simple mathematics and infallible logic. The rest of the Irenicus fanboys jumping furiously at him evidently not being the greatest villain are obviously suffering from Cognitive Dissonance. The sad state where your beliefs simply don't match up with facts and reality.
I feel like Bohdi deserves an honourable mention in the poll. I still would vote for Irenicus, but some people surely like Bohdi. Don't forget: Irenicus was an upstanding member of Suldanesselar's court of elven mages, it was his scheming and ambitious sister that led him down the path of evil. It was also she who first found a solution to the loss of her soul by turning to vampirism, though it was an incomplete solution. Her desperation and ambition is matched only by her unapologetic and absolute evilness.
But yeah, still Irenicus. Best voice, never at a loss for a solution, and always with a backup. He loses his chateau, but takes Spellhold, he loses Spellhold, but can retreat to his allies in the Underdark, who are also just puppets for a greater goal. He's not one of these villians who you just outstep - he's almost always ahead of you. Even in Hell he manages to master his set of trials before you. Badass.
Indeed, in the topic "which villian didn't commit any glaring mistakes we can point at during the game" simple logic dictates Amelyssan wins. Though in that category we have multiple strong contenders. Kangaxx fits all the criteria really well, and my argument about charname doing the same thing without Amelyssan doesn't hold ground with his freeing.
Sorry for assuming I can argue about their modus operandi, didn't know that doesn't count. You should have made it clearer in the first post.
I hate Melissan, even a blind donkey should be able to see through her plot (aaaand someone close to that description was only person who did, which is the funny thing), i knew she was up to something at the moment i went in Saradush.
Being aware of that but not being able to do anything about it made me hate her.
@Lathrael I agree that perhaps the story was a bit too railroaded, but we are discussing this within the context of the game, regardless of whether it was well implemented or not.
Edwin, I am not sure that your view equates to fact, and another person's view equates to personal bias. That smacks of arrogance, which is acceptable I suppose if you're writing this all in character?
Hmmm.... Most of the people on this thread are roleplaying in game using their real life characters leading to fallacies about the nature of roleplaying The other is roleplaying his real life using his in game character... and I am agreeing with him
Sarevok has all the traits of a final boss in a game.
Nr 1 he kills the father gorion and you must run to live to get revenge when you are older. EPIC What does irenipuss do? Gets some thieves drug you and casts some spells to gauge your power.
Nr2 The violence and physical force of sarevok. Truly worthy of being the nemesis. Armor of Bhaal. Son of Bhaal. Tries to ascend through pure war.
Irenipuss is mad cause he was tossed out of his treehouse. Pancy elf
Nr3 Voice acting. FACE ME. FACE THE NEW LORD OF MURDER. I can still hear it.
Nr 4 The twist that Sarevok is your half brother. Classic. Like Star Wars. Does not get any better.
Nr 5 Sarevok has you arrested for murder untop of it all. Guile and power! Irenicus is just magic tricks.
(I like irenicus as a villian but sarevok is better. Bg2 is still better as a game though but i view them as one)
The "hate" i feel towards sarevok is so great i always kill him again in tob. (I like his character but common im not gonna forgive all he did)
Comments
Sarevok... isn't even comparable. However, I feel like he was a threat that was nipped in the bud, though it didn't feel that way at the time. If he had perhaps faced a few more less resourceful Bhaalspawn first he would have been as strong as Melissan.
@deltago All interesting points. However my Paladin DID cast detect evil and know alignment, and they both said she was not-evil and good respectively. Same with Aerie. Plus besides, not even Boo suspected anything, and we all know how he knew something was up with Yoshimo from the start
I also thought it was always kinda weird that he let Bodhi play with you like a Saturday morning cartoon villain. Surely he would know her well enough to not rely on that alone to deal with what is clearly a steadily growing threat. Also the fact that he got captured in Spellhold in the first place was kind of dumb. Not to mention the fact that he opened up his base of operations not only beneath a major city like Athkatla (this can be justified) but
a. he opened it with his vampire sister in a city where magic is illegal.... and he is a mage.
b. not only did he do that... but he set up shop underneath the largest trade center in the region
It would be like a a Muslim and a Jew opening up a mixed temple in Castille during the Inquisition.
Still, you can nitpick anything. This doesn't mean that I think Irenicus was dumb/a bad character. My point is more that Melissan is the most impressive and certainly underrated, not that Irenicus was a bad villain. I think he was a better character, but Melissan was a more dangerous villain.
I don't know man, she just wasn't threatening until she lucked out and got some godly powers as a result of some highly improbable scheme.
The other point is that you don't really solo Melissan, she still has all those goons around during the battle
He set up shop in Athkatla because he needed pawns to fuel his magic. As spoiler free as possible, think of the Spellhold scene and how many he needed to sacrifice just to cast the spell. He needed to get that some how and overtaking a large city's underworld while doing so is pretty bad ass if you ask me. (Think of what it took to finance his Chateau and where he could get the money from)
When the heat was on him in Athkatla however, he moved his base of operation to a place where he knew he wouldn't be interrupted. He was counting on the Cowled Wizards to send him to Spellhold so he could take it over easily.
His story and his villainous acts don't revolve around you. You were just this pitiful creature he used to get what he needed and moved on. That's what makes him a great villain. It wasn't about you. It never was.
What played out after that was just an annoying attempt to fool me, where she did her things and I played along, but mostly I was just wanting to slap her in the face and tell her to get to the action.
So no. To me she was everything but brilliant, she was clumsy and idiotic enough to think that she could fool me, and the only thing stopped her from being punished for it was (RP wise) that I wanted her help to find and kill the other Bhaalspawns first. She was more of a comical relief than a brilliant masteplanner, and lightyears below Sarevok and Irenicus in villain-ness.
Sarevok is a good villain. A very good villain. He's a real villain, in some sense, because he has real plots, real conspiracies, leaves real notes and doesn't get weirdly interested in you for no reason at all. He also sort of comes out of the shadows during the game, as you first doesn't even know there is an arch enemy, just that Gorion got chopped down by a heavily armored badass (one of my friend claimed he had "killed one of them", thinking he was just a normal enemy). He has a great buildup and a perfect villain for that game.
Irenicus, however, is the villain of villains. He comes out boasting and showcasing and has the skill to back it up. The voice actor does an insanely good job in keeping him interesting too. Sure, he's a bit predictable and doesn't have the aura of mystery Sarevok does, but he never really tries to either.
What makes Irenicus the best villain is what he does. He tortures you. He plays with you. He steals your soul and strength. He kills your beloved half-sister. And all while he does this he reminds you that you are so far beneath him, just a simple test subject, just a simple tool, something not even worth dispatching by himself, like handing over trash for the butler to take care of.
When you face him in hell you hate him. Not your character. You. You want him dead, not because he's an inconvenicene, but because he wants you dead, but because you just fucking hate him. And finally killing him is the best feeling in the entire series.
That's what a good villain does to you. He makes you emotionally invested. And for me, Irenicus did. In a way Sarevok couldn't, Mellisan definitely couldn't, and no other villain in any series came close to either.
But the Irenicus/Sarevok fans: Seriously? Where Irenicus/Sarevok didn't succeed, it's because of X reason, but where Amelyssan did, it's because of luck? Give me a break. Can't be due to meticulous planning, right?
Deltago, you can cast detect evil/know alignment on Amelyssan and it does not out her. THAT'S what I was saying. She covers every single angle, from the smallest detail, such as *concealing her true alignment* to all the bigger things. If she was outed so easily, she'd be a poor villain indeed.
Amelyssan only failed because she got punched harder than she could punch, as Boo so eloquently put it. She didn't fail due to bad scheming/poor oversights as is the case with Sarevok and Irenicus after him (who, as an intelligent mage, should have learned a lesson or two from the failure of his predecessor.)
As for the who would win argument? Well, what are we even talking about here? That's the stupidest argument possible and it's off topic to boot. Sarevok died prematurely. Why? Because he wasn't as smart as he should have been. His plans failed. Irenicus died prematurely also. Why? Because he wasn't as smart as he should have been. His plans failed. Amelyssan also died prematurely, due to simply being overpowered, there was literally nothing more she could have done to beat charname than she already did.
So Sarevok at time of death (even if you count his level 30+ form at the end of TOB) would lose to Amelyssan at her time of death. Irenicus at his time of death would also lose to Amelyssan at her time of death.
She would wipe the floor with both of them even if it was 2 VS 1. This isn't just because she is a higher level, but because she lived long enough to achieve said higher level. Why? Because she's the most ruthless, cunning villain of the series, and eats the other two for breakfast in terms of power, plans and schemes.
The other two underestimated charname's power - Amelyssan *used* it.
But, you give one guy a great backstory, make the other guy a joinable NPC, and people live in denial, I suppose. Just goes to show you don't actually have to be the greatest at anything in life - Just have a hell of a personality, and everyone will make you seem like you are the best, even if all facts point against it.
You may have suspected Amelyssan, but that's because this is a game and it is a common thing for a villain to be plainly in front of your eyes. From an RP perspective, Amelyssan kept charname tagging along each time, doing a little bit more for her, a little bit more, using charname's own power against him, essentially, to fuel her goals.
Irenicus makes you hate him, yes. That doesn't make him a great villain. Just like insulting a dragon doesn't make you a badass, (it makes you an idiot), simply getting an emotional response doesn't a great villain make.
He has too many oversights and makes too many mistakes. Read above for all of them.
The reason you don't hate Amelyssan despite all she does to you is a hallmark of how utterly brilliant she is. She twists you this way and that unwittignly, and the only reason you don't hate her is because you don't *know*. While Irenicus is open with his disdain towards you, she is not. He annoys you to hell (literally), whereas she acts as a friend and benefactor for the whole game and turns on you at the correct moment.
And in SOA, your whole game is Irenicus. Irenicus this, Irenicus that. You are hunting Irenicus and everything is geared towards that. So you have all this time to build up your frustration against him because you are so FOCUSED on it and the game is so centered around him.
In TOB, Amelyssan is not the pint of focus. At all. You have SO many other things to worry about and so much of your emotions are directed elsewhere that she becomes nearly an afterthought. And what's the brilliant part? She's the one that makes you focus on everything BUT her. So you have no time to be invested in her emotionally, because she doesn't *want* you to be.
Lastly, I didn't offend anyone. I am merely saying that personality wins out over actual facts, which is apparently true. No one can point out any mistakes Amelyssan makes (because she doesn't) and yet don't claim her as the most ruthless villain of them all. That's denial, friend, and most certainly not an insult.
And by the way - "She gets her underlings killed" ? I am beginning to think you weren't following the plot or didn't know what was going on. That's what was SUPPOSED to happen. Everything - EVERYTHING (except the final battle) worked out *exactly* as she planned.
Unlike the other two, whose incompetence shone through and allowed charname to win. By the time charname reached Amelyssan, he was just too powerful. He won because he hit harder than she could hit. Simple as that.
The other two lost because of oversights and poor decision making.
Also I'm confused about how her underlings dying was a flaw in her plan. That is not true. That WAS her plan.
Irenicus failed, because everything that shouldn't have failed did. He had great base in one of the largest cities where he could without suspicion get every component he needed. He operated there for quite some time judging by his progress. And then Bodhi pissed off Shadow Thieves, and they decided to do full-scale assault, something they probably never did before and never will ever after. And the prisoner he almost completely broke turned out to be skilled thief who worked way out when outsiders knocked every trap and alarm he had. Still, he is victorious in stopping the attack, intercepts his prisoners... And he gets offed by Cowled Wizards. Frustration peaking he replans on the spot.
Spellhold. Place designed to keep his kind locked breaks under his will, he continues his experiments closer to the goal than ever in a place where no outside intervention is feasible, and only person interested in doing said intervention is closely tracked. His masterpiece of a trap works, he gets everyone where he needs them and continues with his work. Gets a divine soul and tells his superpowered undead sister to get rid of the bodies. A shame she leaves charname and his team fully equipped in a dungeon. Later under assault by at least 7 mages, 6 of which were supposed to be mental wrecks barely capable of noticing the outside world, he still prevails continuing with his plans knowing that time is his ally seeing how soullessness can consume. Still, to be safe, his plan of escape leads through underdark, with the exit to surface guarded by entire Drow city which he set up for a perfect game against elves.
Suldanesselar - despite lack of Drow support he counted on he still kicks the ass of entire elven city, setting up layers of protection that only devine artifact, placed safely in the hands of his sister, can penetrate. Feel safe enough? Not Irenicus, he also locked the gate so well that it would literally take an avatar of god to force it open.
And finally hell, him loaded with divine spark, his years of experiencs and directed study on his side against wreck of a spirit whose soul is barely there. He was not supposed to loose that one.
And Melissandre? She almost succeeded because everything that should have failed didn't. Her plan was created on maybes and luck. A good plan may involve counting on two separate events to go how you want it - hers depended on dozens. At every point on her way she was dealing with things way out of her scope. One false move and she would be gone - hell, even all the correct moves with that kind of company didn't give more than 50% chance of survival. She gathered bhaalsapw at Saradush which was a miracle, she got the city under siege knowing that every second a stray ball of fire could hit where she was standing. Any of the five on the way could reveal Melissandres dealing with them, nothing she could do about that. And if charname didn't arrive, what than? Would she be able to convince Yaga-shuras army that she was a friend of their leader when they mindlessly hacked through every single inhabitant? It's not like she could get away than with teleportation wards that only divine could bypass - and if she could so would someone else which would defeat the purpose.
Irenicus on the other hand has absolutely fantastic voice acting, a great deal of characterisation and development, following a full story arc that makes people care more. Throne of Bhaal was relatively short - just doing Abazigal's lair the other day reminded me of this - in that it is severely padded my the three dragon encounters and the swimming with little other content.
Perhaps if Throne had been longer, Amelyssan developed more I would care more about her, but I just do not. It's like the party characters, I tend to gravitate to the ones who have more to say because you learn more about their personality and what makes them tick. Comparatively I shy away from the quieter and less developed characters because they do not bring enough extra flavour to my game.
@bman86 The truth is that they are characters. The levels are really a measure of some of their skills. Being higher "level" simply means they have certain skills that the lower level character don't. It would be like saying if someone tacked on a couple of levels to my basketball skills I'd be better than Michael Jordan.
We are discussing this in the context of the game's story, not our real life experience.
So according to this, Comparing Irenicus or Sarevok with her is unfair, and probably if she had more space to develop, she could have been the best by far.
But anyway, every character has their own value. For me, Sarevok is the one with higher charisma, Irenicus is the mosrt cruel one, while Amelysan is the smart one.
I don't think Amelyssan's strategies succeeded due to good luck, but massive plans like hers that function as designed at minimum benefit from a shortage of bad luck. From a meta perspective, it's unfortunate ToB was just an expansion, because it meant the writers had no choice but to create that type of situation for her; there was no time for her to have setbacks and chances to come back from them. But we can only look at the characters as they are; where some (a lot) of us see the variety of Irenicus' machinations as an indicator that he was the most worthy strategic villain, Amelyssan's relative lack of screen time meant she really couldn't make any mistakes. It's fine for you to favor that aspect of the character, but really, given as much play as Irenicus, it's hard to believe she would have remained so strategically flawless. No one would.
It's kind of like using scientific versus anecdotal evidence. We see enough of Irenicus and Sarevok, and hear enough of their backstories (especially in Irenicus' case), to comprehend their strengths and flaws somewhat more fully. We only get the final chapter of Amelyssan's plan, and her life; all we ever discover about her previously is that she was Bhaal's top priestess, which doesn't really add much once her plan is revealed. It's just not much to go on. So if the question comes down to whether we think she'd have been flawed like other people or was singularly brilliant from go, this will never end and we may as well just go out drinking.
"Irenicus failed because everything that shouldn't have failed did." Yes. Leaving charname and his entire party alive, well, equipped in the hands of his sister instead of just casting a final spell or two to end charname's life while charname was still trapped in the tube was REALLY bad luck (end sarcasm.) No, it was arrogance. He thought so little of you and underestimated you, and that was his doom.
Amelyssan (not Melisandre) succeeded because she planned everything perfectly and guided it along where needed. Getting everyone to Saradush, firstly. Easily accomplished. The Bhaalspawn were starting to make big advances. People started fearing for their lives. She contacted each one individually and convinced them it would be a safe place to go, a refuge. Using her extreme knowledge of their situation (remember, she knows more about Bhaalspawn than probably any other living person, due to the fact that she was given a mission to resurrect Bhaal,) she played on their fears and offered them a guided solution. Being a child of a dead god would not be easy, and here is someone after all this time to finally make sense of it for you. It's not a miracle. It's just great planning. Manipulating the 5 into working against one another, now THAT is the tricky party. And you said, "what if charname died?" Well.... So what? There is no indication that charname was her be-all-end-all Bhaalspawn. You were just another tool for her, if you died, there would be other tools. She'd manipulate Yaga Shura into it, or Abazigal. Likely, they'd be harder to work with, but she already got that far with them, it would make sense she would see it to completion.
Remember: Her goal is to see all Bhaalspawn dead. You dying helps her, not hinders her. If there was one or two Bhaalspawn left (such as Yaga or Abazigal, being the most powerful), she'd have one of the easiest tasks in going to any Tethyrian city and saying "Look at what Yaga Shura did!", amassing an army, and wiping him out. She'd turn on them if she had no other way to kill them.
Spiffy, Irenicus taking over Spellhold is an easier task than fighting them on the streets. Once in Spellhold, he is considered taken by the order, which would get on with other tasks. An uncaptured, loose mage is more dangerous a thing. So he infiltrated from within, and since Spellhold is near impossible to get into, it was the task of killing the wizards that rain it, then blocking it off from the world, as opposed to facing the ENTIRE Cowled Wizard order in a street fight. "Even if we fall, our numbers are many. You will be overwhelmed." It's at that point he surrenders, because he knows it is true. Casting magics and killing people in the street in Athkatla was a stupid thing to do. You're a slobbering fanboy if you claim otherwise. As I said, he did well to recover from this, and ended up taking Imoen and using it to his advantage. High intelligence, low wisdom. But certainly not a calculating, well thought out plan.
Whereas Amelyssan was controlling and running things the entire time. Every move you make in TOB is guided by her. And yes, if there was more time, they would have fleshed out the story, etc. I am not discussing maybe's and what ifs. Only what I have to work with. And what I have to work with is an entirely competent villain in TOB who made zero mistakes, and two others in previous editions who did. It's really as simple as that. Whether you like her or you don't isn't on trial here. Whether she's the best or not, is. And she clearly is.
Moreover, both Boo and I have presented cases more than adequately and pointed out flaws in the other two. If a person fails to see fact over their own personal bias towards/against characters, then that is a problem.
If nothing else, these types of threads give me a good insight into what makes people tick. Call it a social experiment, if you must. So far, it has shown me that people, no matter how much solid evidence you hit them with, will always try to reason their way out of it by inventing excuses, stories, etc. If you extend this mentality to other aspects in life, it can be quite concerning.
BUT, this is off-topic. As was your question. Please stick to on-topic discussions only.
It must have been so easy to predict that his bloodthirsty vampire focused-on-escaping-death sister would be bad person to delegate to getting rid of your helpless enemies. Could have seen it coming a mile away -.- And as a side note - as far as vices go, arogance is one of the best for villians to have.
Fighting on the street wasn't smart, yup, no discussion here. [excuse incoming] When you tear down dozens of *insects* that interrupt the work of your life with annoying and unpredictable attack that doesn't fit their MO a man can get carried away and forget where he is.
You try to portray his surrender later as though it was a bad thing, while it was a brilliant manouver, one we can actually see him doing (as opposed to Amelyssans supposed gambits), one that gets to our emotions. Amelyssans betreyal didn't hurt half as much as seeing this guy get what he wants which is an important measure for villians.
And I noticed how you omitted the parts where his preparations were great (basically everything besides those two moments, and for the first of those your case is exactly as good as mine with evidence present) and failed not due his fault.
As for Amelyssans plans where you see her mastermind at work I see someone who does not understand plotting. Events do NOT go as they're planned more often then they do. Her encountering each of the five is exactly such a mistake - each of them is unpredictable enough to try and kill her even if she did make compelling case as to what course of action should they take. If we didn't kill Gromnir he might have went and killed her himself, he certainly hinted that he would like that. And if he didn't Yaga-Shuras army would eventually come in killing everyone including her, I have no reason to belive otherwise and was given no evidence that she had a master plan for that event. She couldn't manipulate him or Abizgail, she has no chance to contact them due to situation she put herself into. She played the trump card that was charname well, but that's just simple luck - each time you reload before killing Yaga-Shura is a world where dice were cruel and Amelissan dies with Saradush before completing her pet project.
And for the guiding us part - we're PCs. We would go and kill them if Amelyssan wasn't there. We would do it even if we weren't the child of Bhaal. Her guidance of charname could easily have been replaced by Boos squeaks, and events would play out roughly the same (with the exception of needing another information sources).
And to your last post - I find it funny that those two paragraphs are universal enough to be said in every discussion, and (as you might imagine) from my point of view they would fit better if directed at you. Especially with all those derogatory comments about different opinions, absolute certainity that you are right and everyone else is just making excuses. Reminds me of Edwin actually, which is fitting.
In the most basic, simple terms, without reams of text:
- Can we point out any glaring mistakes Sarevok makes along the way, which if he didn't make, would likely have led to his victory against charname? Yes. Therefore he cannot be considered the best scheming/conniving/calculating/intelligent villain. (Which is what this thread was asking.)
- Can we point out any glaring mistakes Irenicus makes along the way, which, if he didn't make, would likely have led to his victory against charname? Yes. Therefore he cannot be considered the best scheming/conniving/calculating/intelligent villain. (Which is what this thread was asking.)
- Can we point out any glaring mistakes Amelyssan makes along the way, which, if she didn't make, would likely have led to her victory against charname? No. She did everything correctly, her failure was due to no oversight, no missing points from her plans - she was simply overwhelmed due to the fact that charname was stronger. Therefore, she can be considered the best scheming/conniving/calculating/intelligent villain. (Which is what this thread was asking.)
Simple mathematics and infallible logic. The rest of the Irenicus fanboys jumping furiously at him evidently not being the greatest villain are obviously suffering from Cognitive Dissonance. The sad state where your beliefs simply don't match up with facts and reality.
But yeah, still Irenicus. Best voice, never at a loss for a solution, and always with a backup. He loses his chateau, but takes Spellhold, he loses Spellhold, but can retreat to his allies in the Underdark, who are also just puppets for a greater goal. He's not one of these villians who you just outstep - he's almost always ahead of you. Even in Hell he manages to master his set of trials before you. Badass.
Sorry for assuming I can argue about their modus operandi, didn't know that doesn't count. You should have made it clearer in the first post.
Being aware of that but not being able to do anything about it made me hate her.
The other is roleplaying his real life using his in game character... and I am agreeing with him
Oh well
"Onward, to futility!"
Nr 1 he kills the father gorion and you must run to live to get revenge when you are older. EPIC
What does irenipuss do? Gets some thieves drug you and casts some spells to gauge your power.
Nr2 The violence and physical force of sarevok. Truly worthy of being the nemesis. Armor of Bhaal. Son of Bhaal. Tries to ascend through pure war.
Irenipuss is mad cause he was tossed out of his treehouse. Pancy elf
Nr3 Voice acting. FACE ME. FACE THE NEW LORD OF MURDER. I can still hear it.
Nr 4 The twist that Sarevok is your half brother. Classic. Like Star Wars. Does not get any better.
Nr 5 Sarevok has you arrested for murder untop of it all. Guile and power!
Irenicus is just magic tricks.
(I like irenicus as a villian but sarevok is better. Bg2 is still better as a game though but i view them as one)
The "hate" i feel towards sarevok is so great i always kill him again in tob. (I like his character but common im not gonna forgive all he did)
Sarevok 10/10
Irenicus 7, 5/10
Melli who? 3/10