Irenicus didn't kill you when he had a perfect chance. Villain fail. Nothing further needs to be said on the matter, he cannot win due to this incompetence alone (not taking into account the plethora of other mistakes he made.)
And Kamuizin, the events of TOB could not have progressed without Amelyssan. She leads the game. After Yaga Shura's death, for example, she teleports in and tells you the next step: Amkethran, Abazigal, Sendai.
Without her, charname would have been stumbling around blindly. In fact, if you try to tell her you don't want to get involved, she tells you a bit of lore, telling you that Tethyrian armies are starting to hunt Bhaalspawn, blaming them for the fall of Saradush. So, it's either you wipe out the other Bhaalspawn, or they will eventually come after you (well, them or the armies.) So then you grudgingly go about your task.
Without her pulling your strings, after Yaga Shura's death, charname could have been like "Yep, another job well done, let's go to Icewind Dale now, I hear there's goblin problems up there."
Amelyssan is not only a great villain, she is the backbone of the game, which would have been impossible without her.
Irenicus didn't kill you when he had a perfect chance. Villain fail. Nothing further needs to be said on the matter, he cannot win due to this incompetence alone (not taking into account the plethora of other mistakes he made.)
And Kamuizin, the events of TOB could not have progressed without Amelyssan. She leads the game. After Yaga Shura's death, for example, she teleports in and tells you the next step: Amkethran, Abazigal, Sendai.
Without her, charname would have been stumbling around blindly. In fact, if you try to tell her you don't want to get involved, she tells you a bit of lore, telling you that Tethyrian armies are starting to hunt Bhaalspawn, blaming them for the fall of Saradush. So, it's either you wipe out the other Bhaalspawn, or they will eventually come after you (well, them or the armies.) So then you grudgingly go about your task.
Without her pulling your strings, after Yaga Shura's death, charname could have been like "Yep, another job well done, let's go to Icewind Dale now, I hear there's goblin problems up there."
Amelyssan is not only a great villain, she is the backbone of the game, which would have been impossible without her.
You are right, charname would have been stumbling around blindly. Not like a solar would come to guide charname if she wouldn't be around. Oh wait...
Edit: And as i wrote on earlier post, that darwin award for letting charname live goes to Bodhi, not Irenicus.
Amelyssan being in Saradush: First, she doesn't tell us it's part of the plan. It's speculation. Being part of the plan is a little more involving than "that happened". Otherwise I could say that spellhold was originally part of the plan. Second, why would being "part of the plan" somehow take away my power of calling that a mistake? Can't something planned be a mistake? Third, can anyone give me a reason why she should lock herself up along with Gromnir who wants to kill her in a city she designed for utter destruction? Because that's not "it will give some people motivation to hunt me in the future if they do not die on the way and I might have to fight them", that's "I may die and there is close to nothing I can do about it"
And how is her being trapped my speculation? Everyone within the city was trapped, teleportation blocked and direct route obstructed by fire giant army. That is what we know, facts. She does teleport when we meet her, but that's most likely within the city, same what charname can do. Unless you have evidence that would suggest she left the city and somehow all the major exposition about barrier being inpenetrable is telling lies, and a reason why charname wouldn't call her on it on their next meeting.
I also disagree that not killing charname (remembering what @Latharel says, it's Bodhi and delegating killing to her was perfectly valid reasoning) is a mistake that closes the whole game. Hell, Amelyssan couldnt't make it just because she didn't have the power to. And what this mistake lead to was... well... exactly the same situation Amelyssan was in endgame. So, assuming your viewpoint on the matter, Irenicus had to make a huge mistake so that he could loose at the same level as Amelyssan did. Which proves that his plans, cunning etc was much higher and he wins in the metric this thread proposes.
You are right, charname would have been stumbling around blindly. Not like a solar would come to guide charname if she wouldn't be around. Oh wait...
Edit: And as i wrote on earlier post, that darwin award for letting charname live goes to Bodhi, not Irenicus.
Solar? Solar didn't even tell you how to leave the pocket plane. Charname should be thankful to Sarevok for that, elsewise he'd be trapped within his own plane for eternity. Solar didn't tell you something so basic, but yes, I'm sure she'd go in depth about other things. Blind faith, kid.
How anyone can claim it's Bodhi's fault, I don't know. She was just standing there. She didn't ask for the honours, she didn't make a sound. Irenicus simply delegated it to her. 100% on him. 100%.
He ordered them dead. That's a fact. He wanted what you claim is the correct course of action. She decided to play with food. 100% on her. 100%.
Irenicus knew Bodhi for hundreds of years, and she was the only ally he trusted. He didn't call her his "sister" for nothing. That is completely on him, considering how well he knew her.
Melissan on the other hand, did not need any allies.
Giving Charname to Bodhi was likely done to appease her. She did follow him to his isolated island, away from her usual hunting grounds. Allowing her to hunt down Charname, a powerful and cunning prey, was a reward for his wild, animalistic sister. Irenicus just didn't believe that Bodhi could loose Charname, which happened mostly because Charname turned into the Avatar of the God of Murder. Irenicus also believed Charname to be dead already and actually killing him just a formality. He had stolen Charnames soul and expected him to wither and die anyway. Now, Bodhi wanted to inform Irenicus about the Slayer before Charname left the labyrinth. Why wasn't Irenicus then not prepared to be attacked by Charname? Plothole I guess, just like the years or even decades Irenicus spent without a soul made him think Charname would wither and die anytime soon.
Bodhi had already fought charname in her crypt, where she was bested and fled. She knew the capabilities of charname and would have reported them to Irenicus, as she reports everything.
And maybe, MAYBE I could see Irenicus releasing charname to her in a maze. Maybe. But that would have to be alone. With nothing (or very basic equipment). Certainly not charname and his entire UNINJURED + EQUIPPED party.
No, what Irenicus did was stupid. Beyond stupid. So stupid that even if he was perfect in every other way (which he wasn't) that mistake alone makes him utterly inept.
Deltharis, you seem to be missing the point. "He ordered them dead," you say. That is EXACTLY the problem. You don't order someone dead when they are helpless in front of you in a tube. You kill them. He didn't. Therefore, not the greatest villain.
Get past your fanboyism and look at facts, not speculations and wild theories (such as appeasing Bodhi, of which there is no proof whatsoever, and just shows me how badly you people are grasping at straws.)
Let me give you some of your own medicine than - none of what you propose about what transpired are facts. Facts are he ordered them dead, and Bodhi didn't follow through. The end.
Could he have predicted that? Maybe, though it wasn't likely event to consider. Especially the whole tean uninjured+equipped part. And it wasn't like she couldn't kill them all - the fact that players do not have any control until waking up in the dungeons says that they were helpless up until that moment. Killing them was entirely withing the capabilities of even lowliest of mooks.
Deltharis, you seem to be missing the point. "He ordered them dead," you say. That is EXACTLY the problem. You don't order someone dead when they are helpless in front of you in a tube. You kill them. He didn't. Therefore, not the greatest villain.
That's like, your philosophical stance. Delegating menial jobs to henchmen is after all exactly why you keep them around. And until you order them to do something they are not capable of doing it's their fault if they fail. Are you seriously saying that when you have helpless enemy (HELPLESS!) you can't order anyone else to finish the job? Any villian who leads an organisation (say, mafia) is bad villian by definition? And you expect me to accept it as a fact and universal truth?
Bodhi had already fought charname in her crypt, where she was bested and fled. She knew the capabilities of charname and would have reported them to Irenicus, as she reports everything.
And maybe, MAYBE I could see Irenicus releasing charname to her in a maze. Maybe. But that would have to be alone. With nothing (or very basic equipment). Certainly not charname and his entire UNINJURED + EQUIPPED party.
He knew about her hunting the surplus of thieves in the maze and he saw her taking Charname and his party away instead of killing them immediately. After stealing Charnames soul he didn't care anymore. His diary makes it clear that he was a very arrogant man, even without his soul. He considered others to be insects or beneath him. The whole ordeal with the soul of a Bhaalspawn could have been avoided if Irenicus had been content with a normal soul, from an elf for example. But no, he had to have the very best and rarest. This arrogance is his central character flaw, which made him get punished in the first place. Of course a villain has flaws, otherwise he would win. Melysans flaw that made her fail was her complete ignorance of who the prophecy of Alaundo was talking about. Winning against her was a foregone conclussion and she should have known. Instead she chose to oppose Charname in a bid for power. You might as well argue the genius of a guy who plans out in detail when's the best time to jump in front of a train.
Deltharis, you seem to be missing the point. "He ordered them dead," you say. That is EXACTLY the problem. You don't order someone dead when they are helpless in front of you in a tube. You kill them. He didn't. Therefore, not the greatest villain.
First of all, he had a trusted henchman to do that for him and second of all, Charname was missing his soul and his Bhaalpowers by that point. Irenicus honestly expected Charname to wither and die (even though he himself survived years in that condition). Being released into the labyrinth fully equipped does not mean that Bodhi has to face his party at full strenght. Resting for as long as the player likes is a very gamey concept. In all reality Charname and his party would have been exhausted and low on spells by the time Bodhi faced them. Letting Bodhi finish them off was not a big risk outside of a video game. Bodhi retreated because Charname became the literal avatar of a god, without his Bhaalpowers.
Get past your fanboyism and look at facts, not speculations and wild theories (such as appeasing Bodhi, of whch there is no proof whatsoever, and just shows me how badly you people are grasping at straws.)
You did not notice how happy and eager Bodhi was to fulfill her brothers command in that respect?
Deltharis, none of your points make any sense. This is the last time I will address you since I feel as if I am wasting my time. Delegating is fine. Delegating a minion to go do something somewhere is acceptable, even smart. Delegating when you have something in front of you, when all you literally have to do is cast one more spell and be done with it is retarded.
ESPECIALLY considering they had knowledge of you and what you were capable of. Even if you sided with Bodhi, you did something she could not - took down the Shadow Thieves single-handedly. One of the biggest organisations in the realms, BY YOURSELF. Such a glaring oversight is so ridiculous that even a 4 year old would be able to see the obvious mistake here.
ESPECIALLY considering they had knowledge of you and what you were capable of. Even if you sided with Bodhi, you did something she could not - took down the Shadow Thieves single-handedly. One of the biggest organisations in the realms, BY YOURSELF. Such a glaring oversight is so ridiculous that even a 4 year old would be able to see the obvious mistake here.
Please explain to me how that does not apply to Amelyssan.
[1]Delegating is fine. [2]Delegating a minion to go do something somewhere is acceptable, even smart. [3]Delegating when you have something in front of you, when all you literally have to do is cast one more spell and be done with it is retarded
True, there is no further point going about that point. Note my question from the last post:
Are you seriously saying that when you have helpless enemy (HELPLESS!) you can't order anyone else to finish the job?
That is what you are saying.For me statement [3] is not special and should fall under the algorythm of behaviour set by your statements [1] and [2]. Philosophical difference.
Please explain to me how that does not apply to Amelyssan.
I have. A thousand times over. I am about done responding to you as well, as I feel it is just as big a waste of time as respnding to the other fool.
Amelyssan used your strength, just as Bodhi used it briefly (if you sided with her) to destroy the Shadow Thieves.) But unlike Bodhi, who did it as a blackmail (do this and I will help you rescue Imoen,) Amelyssan made it seem as if you were helping yourself. "The Tethyrian Army is after you," etc. Now, all the while, eliminating the other Bhaalspawn was part of her grand plan, which you were a key player of. She used and manipulated you to manouver herself into the exact position she wanted to be in. But, as prophecy would have it, she was simply outpunched, not outwitted or made any mistakes along the way. Certainly not glaring ones like the aforementioned Irenicus.
False. Arguments are assumed true until proven wrong. We just end one of the points with a stalemate.
There is no stalemate. If you can't see that Irenicus taking literally another 5 seconds of his time to end your life rather than leaving you and your party fully equipped and uninjured to his sister, then I can see exactly why you support him. You're evidently as stupid as he is, and thus, talking to you is pointless. You can't even grasp such simple concepts, so of course, grasping the underlying brilliance of Amelyssan's twisted plots is probably unfair to expect of you.
After all, expecting a monkey to do a tax return is highly unreasonable. In that regard, I forgive you and your ridiculous viewpoints, and hold no ill will towards them. You simply know no better and I was obviously expecting too much.
Let's put it like this. The first time through BG1, Sarevok kept throwing left hooks mixed in with his rights, also showed up to kill his competition at the beginning of said competition's adventure, and had an intricate set up all throughout the Sword Coast. When his setup was destroyed, he lured the CHARNAME back to Candlekeep, and went under a false identity which he had been using there for years. He also managed to pin the murders of the Iron Throne Leaders on CHARNAME whether you kill them or not causing the Flaming Fist to begin hunting for the nefarious CHARNAME. By planning and scheming, Sarevok was the greatest villain of the BG series. He did not make any big blunders until the end of the game when he was thrown onto his toes. The only major flaw in his plan was in information he did not possess.
Irenicus was awesome, though his scheming sort of was... expected? Irenicus constantly made mistakes, and pretends that he planned for you to come to Spellhold. That wasn't much of a plan to be honest. Would you not go running to save your sister? Storywise though, Irenicus was by far the greatest villain of the BG Series.
Amelyssan now.
Amelyssan was that special villain you instantly knew was bad since she was a "Priestess of Bhaal" that was not a mean succubus from the bowels of the Abyss. Bhaal was the Lord of MURDER. I would not expect one of his priestesses to be binding the wounds of the suffering and complaining about death. I was really sad when I could not just "end the game" by killing Melissan before I went and butchered Gromnir Il Khan which could have been a great ally.
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And Kamuizin, the events of TOB could not have progressed without Amelyssan. She leads the game. After Yaga Shura's death, for example, she teleports in and tells you the next step: Amkethran, Abazigal, Sendai.
Without her, charname would have been stumbling around blindly. In fact, if you try to tell her you don't want to get involved, she tells you a bit of lore, telling you that Tethyrian armies are starting to hunt Bhaalspawn, blaming them for the fall of Saradush. So, it's either you wipe out the other Bhaalspawn, or they will eventually come after you (well, them or the armies.) So then you grudgingly go about your task.
Without her pulling your strings, after Yaga Shura's death, charname could have been like "Yep, another job well done, let's go to Icewind Dale now, I hear there's goblin problems up there."
Amelyssan is not only a great villain, she is the backbone of the game, which would have been impossible without her.
Edit: And as i wrote on earlier post, that darwin award for letting charname live goes to Bodhi, not Irenicus.
First, she doesn't tell us it's part of the plan. It's speculation. Being part of the plan is a little more involving than "that happened". Otherwise I could say that spellhold was originally part of the plan.
Second, why would being "part of the plan" somehow take away my power of calling that a mistake? Can't something planned be a mistake?
Third, can anyone give me a reason why she should lock herself up along with Gromnir who wants to kill her in a city she designed for utter destruction? Because that's not "it will give some people motivation to hunt me in the future if they do not die on the way and I might have to fight them", that's "I may die and there is close to nothing I can do about it"
And how is her being trapped my speculation? Everyone within the city was trapped, teleportation blocked and direct route obstructed by fire giant army. That is what we know, facts. She does teleport when we meet her, but that's most likely within the city, same what charname can do. Unless you have evidence that would suggest she left the city and somehow all the major exposition about barrier being inpenetrable is telling lies, and a reason why charname wouldn't call her on it on their next meeting.
I also disagree that not killing charname (remembering what @Latharel says, it's Bodhi and delegating killing to her was perfectly valid reasoning) is a mistake that closes the whole game. Hell, Amelyssan couldnt't make it just because she didn't have the power to. And what this mistake lead to was... well... exactly the same situation Amelyssan was in endgame. So, assuming your viewpoint on the matter, Irenicus had to make a huge mistake so that he could loose at the same level as Amelyssan did. Which proves that his plans, cunning etc was much higher and he wins in the metric this thread proposes.
Solar? Solar didn't even tell you how to leave the pocket plane. Charname should be thankful to Sarevok for that, elsewise he'd be trapped within his own plane for eternity. Solar didn't tell you something so basic, but yes, I'm sure she'd go in depth about other things. Blind faith, kid.
How anyone can claim it's Bodhi's fault, I don't know. She was just standing there. She didn't ask for the honours, she didn't make a sound. Irenicus simply delegated it to her. 100% on him. 100%.
More of that cognitive dissonance. Pesky thing.
Cognitive dissonance is pesky indeed.
Melissan on the other hand, did not need any allies.
Irenicus just didn't believe that Bodhi could loose Charname, which happened mostly because Charname turned into the Avatar of the God of Murder. Irenicus also believed Charname to be dead already and actually killing him just a formality. He had stolen Charnames soul and expected him to wither and die anyway.
Now, Bodhi wanted to inform Irenicus about the Slayer before Charname left the labyrinth. Why wasn't Irenicus then not prepared to be attacked by Charname?
Plothole I guess, just like the years or even decades Irenicus spent without a soul made him think Charname would wither and die anytime soon.
And maybe, MAYBE I could see Irenicus releasing charname to her in a maze. Maybe. But that would have to be alone. With nothing (or very basic equipment). Certainly not charname and his entire UNINJURED + EQUIPPED party.
No, what Irenicus did was stupid. Beyond stupid. So stupid that even if he was perfect in every other way (which he wasn't) that mistake alone makes him utterly inept.
Deltharis, you seem to be missing the point. "He ordered them dead," you say. That is EXACTLY the problem. You don't order someone dead when they are helpless in front of you in a tube. You kill them. He didn't. Therefore, not the greatest villain.
Get past your fanboyism and look at facts, not speculations and wild theories (such as appeasing Bodhi, of which there is no proof whatsoever, and just shows me how badly you people are grasping at straws.) And she got her reward. In the shape of Imoen's soul. Thus, giving charname over to Bodhi was showcasing Irenicus' ineptitude, and nothing more.
Could he have predicted that? Maybe, though it wasn't likely event to consider. Especially the whole tean uninjured+equipped part. And it wasn't like she couldn't kill them all - the fact that players do not have any control until waking up in the dungeons says that they were helpless up until that moment. Killing them was entirely withing the capabilities of even lowliest of mooks. That's like, your philosophical stance. Delegating menial jobs to henchmen is after all exactly why you keep them around. And until you order them to do something they are not capable of doing it's their fault if they fail. Are you seriously saying that when you have helpless enemy (HELPLESS!) you can't order anyone else to finish the job? Any villian who leads an organisation (say, mafia) is bad villian by definition? And you expect me to accept it as a fact and universal truth?
After stealing Charnames soul he didn't care anymore. His diary makes it clear that he was a very arrogant man, even without his soul. He considered others to be insects or beneath him. The whole ordeal with the soul of a Bhaalspawn could have been avoided if Irenicus had been content with a normal soul, from an elf for example. But no, he had to have the very best and rarest.
This arrogance is his central character flaw, which made him get punished in the first place. Of course a villain has flaws, otherwise he would win.
Melysans flaw that made her fail was her complete ignorance of who the prophecy of Alaundo was talking about. Winning against her was a foregone conclussion and she should have known. Instead she chose to oppose Charname in a bid for power. You might as well argue the genius of a guy who plans out in detail when's the best time to jump in front of a train. First of all, he had a trusted henchman to do that for him and second of all, Charname was missing his soul and his Bhaalpowers by that point. Irenicus honestly expected Charname to wither and die (even though he himself survived years in that condition).
Being released into the labyrinth fully equipped does not mean that Bodhi has to face his party at full strenght. Resting for as long as the player likes is a very gamey concept. In all reality Charname and his party would have been exhausted and low on spells by the time Bodhi faced them. Letting Bodhi finish them off was not a big risk outside of a video game. Bodhi retreated because Charname became the literal avatar of a god, without his Bhaalpowers. You did not notice how happy and eager Bodhi was to fulfill her brothers command in that respect?
ESPECIALLY considering they had knowledge of you and what you were capable of. Even if you sided with Bodhi, you did something she could not - took down the Shadow Thieves single-handedly. One of the biggest organisations in the realms, BY YOURSELF. Such a glaring oversight is so ridiculous that even a 4 year old would be able to see the obvious mistake here.
False. Arguments are assumed true until proven wrong. We just end one of the points with a stalemate.
Amelyssan used your strength, just as Bodhi used it briefly (if you sided with her) to destroy the Shadow Thieves.) But unlike Bodhi, who did it as a blackmail (do this and I will help you rescue Imoen,) Amelyssan made it seem as if you were helping yourself. "The Tethyrian Army is after you," etc. Now, all the while, eliminating the other Bhaalspawn was part of her grand plan, which you were a key player of. She used and manipulated you to manouver herself into the exact position she wanted to be in. But, as prophecy would have it, she was simply outpunched, not outwitted or made any mistakes along the way. Certainly not glaring ones like the aforementioned Irenicus. There is no stalemate. If you can't see that Irenicus taking literally another 5 seconds of his time to end your life rather than leaving you and your party fully equipped and uninjured to his sister, then I can see exactly why you support him. You're evidently as stupid as he is, and thus, talking to you is pointless. You can't even grasp such simple concepts, so of course, grasping the underlying brilliance of Amelyssan's twisted plots is probably unfair to expect of you.
After all, expecting a monkey to do a tax return is highly unreasonable. In that regard, I forgive you and your ridiculous viewpoints, and hold no ill will towards them. You simply know no better and I was obviously expecting too much.
By planning and scheming, Sarevok was the greatest villain of the BG series. He did not make any big blunders until the end of the game when he was thrown onto his toes. The only major flaw in his plan was in information he did not possess.
Irenicus was awesome, though his scheming sort of was... expected? Irenicus constantly made mistakes, and pretends that he planned for you to come to Spellhold. That wasn't much of a plan to be honest. Would you not go running to save your sister? Storywise though, Irenicus was by far the greatest villain of the BG Series.
Amelyssan now.
Amelyssan was that special villain you instantly knew was bad since she was a "Priestess of Bhaal" that was not a mean succubus from the bowels of the Abyss. Bhaal was the Lord of MURDER. I would not expect one of his priestesses to be binding the wounds of the suffering and complaining about death. I was really sad when I could not just "end the game" by killing Melissan before I went and butchered Gromnir Il Khan which could have been a great ally.
Thread closed.