The Major Villains
Edwin_Odesseiron
Member Posts: 226
This has been voted on before, no doubt. "Who is the best villain?" This is not what this thread is asking. At least, not really. This will be looking at events only, personalities removed from the equation. Because with personalities, the votes are biased to who you like the most as a character, not who was the best villain.
Over the years, Irenicus seems to be the most popular of the major villains, then Sarevok. A small, almost non-existent minority likes Amelyssan. I am part of that minority. Personalities aside, the best *villain* in terms of cunning, planning, and competence, seems to be her.
She is the *only* one who doesn't openly declare herself as an enemy until crunch time, well into her plot, and manipulates you into killing the others as a part of said plot. In fact, not only does she do this, but she does it brilliantly, by actually pretending to be a force of good. She knows when to interfere and "guide" you, and knows when to let you make your own choices. Her motives seem to make sense, and she just seems willing to help the various Bhaalspawn. Of course, her true nature is revealed later.
Whereas the other two are nowhere near as clever. Granted, Sarevok in BG1 believed he was the one the prophecy was centered around, (and wouldn't bother manipulating a nobody from Candlekeep), but he just seems arrogant and essentially ignores the amount of trouble you've caused him right up until you kill him. I mean, the guy has an entire organisation at his back. You have a party of a handful of people. Once you destroy his plans in the mines, bandit camp AND Cloakwood, surely that's enough reason to focus his attention solely on you until you are disposed of. Instead, he continues with his plans as if nothing is happening and hopes you go away. Not very resourceful. If Amelyssan was in his place, she'd likely have posed as a friend and lured charname into the Iron Throne, before disposing of him quietly behind the scenes.
And Irenicus is openly hostile towards you from the very start, because he needs something from you. When he finally gets it in Spellhold, his arrogance is such that he doesn't kill you, but leaves it to his "sister," which obviously backfires. If Amelyssan was in his place, she'd likely have stolen your soul and then killed you then and there, without leaving it to lackeys or delaying what needed to be done. In fact, if Amelyssan was in Irenicus's position, she likely wouldn't have even bothered with you after the events of BG1. Irenicus was stupid to capture you in the first place. There are plenty of other, weaker Bhaalspawn around that he could have tracked down and stolen their souls instead. But no, he goes for the guy who single-handedly demolished an entire organisation, wiped out several mines/camps/bandits/assassins etc. Amelyssan seems well-planned enough to have tracked down a weak one and taken their soul instead, then going from there.
From Amelyssan's point of view, in her part in TOB she does everything correctly. She was meticulous, even going so far as to disguise her alignment as "good." That's brilliance. In the end, she is just simply overwhelmed both by charname's power and destiny being against her, not due to mistakes or poor planning. She sought something she shouldn't even have or was entitled to: Godhood, and, faced with a weaker charname, would have achieved it. She is the ultimate self-serving character, betraying absolutely everyone to achieve her ends, but ONLY doing so at the crucial moment (not giving away a villain's exposition, etc). She is methodical and calculating not a braggart or stupidly arrogant. She takes care of all the finer details, from changing her alignment, as mentioned, to her true name, to the bigger stuff as well. Such as manipulating absolutely EVERYONE in TOB (Bhaalspawn, commoners, Bhaal himself, charname, even entire cities such as Saradush), and successfully hiding her purpose until crunch time. She leads all the Bhaalspawn to a single location like lambs to the slaughter and they all believe she is doing it for their own good. She doesn't dirty her own hands with their deaths (so remaining a force of "good"), but manipulates others into killing them. An entire city is razed in the process, and she is the most guilty of all, yet remains the most innocent unless you know what really happened. I feel if she was in Sarevok's or Irenicus's positions, she would not have made the mistakes they did (as I described above.) She seems way too calculating and smart to have made rudimentary mistakes such as those.
So for me, she was the best villain, in terms of scheming, plotting, and resourcefulness. Obviously, the other two had better developed personalities throughout (although with Sarevok, we can only say that because of his TOB contribution. In BG1, he has about as developed a personality as Amelyssan does in TOB.)
So, putting personalities aside, and looking at solely at the events that have unfolded, who do you think is the best of the three major villains (in terms of their cunning, competence, plans, resources, resourcefulness), and why? What is your reasoning for your choice of the best villain?
I predict Irenicus will remain the most popular and Amleyssan the least, but I'd like to get people thinking a little further into it.
Over the years, Irenicus seems to be the most popular of the major villains, then Sarevok. A small, almost non-existent minority likes Amelyssan. I am part of that minority. Personalities aside, the best *villain* in terms of cunning, planning, and competence, seems to be her.
She is the *only* one who doesn't openly declare herself as an enemy until crunch time, well into her plot, and manipulates you into killing the others as a part of said plot. In fact, not only does she do this, but she does it brilliantly, by actually pretending to be a force of good. She knows when to interfere and "guide" you, and knows when to let you make your own choices. Her motives seem to make sense, and she just seems willing to help the various Bhaalspawn. Of course, her true nature is revealed later.
Whereas the other two are nowhere near as clever. Granted, Sarevok in BG1 believed he was the one the prophecy was centered around, (and wouldn't bother manipulating a nobody from Candlekeep), but he just seems arrogant and essentially ignores the amount of trouble you've caused him right up until you kill him. I mean, the guy has an entire organisation at his back. You have a party of a handful of people. Once you destroy his plans in the mines, bandit camp AND Cloakwood, surely that's enough reason to focus his attention solely on you until you are disposed of. Instead, he continues with his plans as if nothing is happening and hopes you go away. Not very resourceful. If Amelyssan was in his place, she'd likely have posed as a friend and lured charname into the Iron Throne, before disposing of him quietly behind the scenes.
And Irenicus is openly hostile towards you from the very start, because he needs something from you. When he finally gets it in Spellhold, his arrogance is such that he doesn't kill you, but leaves it to his "sister," which obviously backfires. If Amelyssan was in his place, she'd likely have stolen your soul and then killed you then and there, without leaving it to lackeys or delaying what needed to be done. In fact, if Amelyssan was in Irenicus's position, she likely wouldn't have even bothered with you after the events of BG1. Irenicus was stupid to capture you in the first place. There are plenty of other, weaker Bhaalspawn around that he could have tracked down and stolen their souls instead. But no, he goes for the guy who single-handedly demolished an entire organisation, wiped out several mines/camps/bandits/assassins etc. Amelyssan seems well-planned enough to have tracked down a weak one and taken their soul instead, then going from there.
From Amelyssan's point of view, in her part in TOB she does everything correctly. She was meticulous, even going so far as to disguise her alignment as "good." That's brilliance. In the end, she is just simply overwhelmed both by charname's power and destiny being against her, not due to mistakes or poor planning. She sought something she shouldn't even have or was entitled to: Godhood, and, faced with a weaker charname, would have achieved it. She is the ultimate self-serving character, betraying absolutely everyone to achieve her ends, but ONLY doing so at the crucial moment (not giving away a villain's exposition, etc). She is methodical and calculating not a braggart or stupidly arrogant. She takes care of all the finer details, from changing her alignment, as mentioned, to her true name, to the bigger stuff as well. Such as manipulating absolutely EVERYONE in TOB (Bhaalspawn, commoners, Bhaal himself, charname, even entire cities such as Saradush), and successfully hiding her purpose until crunch time. She leads all the Bhaalspawn to a single location like lambs to the slaughter and they all believe she is doing it for their own good. She doesn't dirty her own hands with their deaths (so remaining a force of "good"), but manipulates others into killing them. An entire city is razed in the process, and she is the most guilty of all, yet remains the most innocent unless you know what really happened. I feel if she was in Sarevok's or Irenicus's positions, she would not have made the mistakes they did (as I described above.) She seems way too calculating and smart to have made rudimentary mistakes such as those.
So for me, she was the best villain, in terms of scheming, plotting, and resourcefulness. Obviously, the other two had better developed personalities throughout (although with Sarevok, we can only say that because of his TOB contribution. In BG1, he has about as developed a personality as Amelyssan does in TOB.)
So, putting personalities aside, and looking at solely at the events that have unfolded, who do you think is the best of the three major villains (in terms of their cunning, competence, plans, resources, resourcefulness), and why? What is your reasoning for your choice of the best villain?
I predict Irenicus will remain the most popular and Amleyssan the least, but I'd like to get people thinking a little further into it.
- The Major Villains133 votes
- Sarevok27.07%
- Irenicus64.66%
- Amelyssan8.27%
Post edited by Edwin_Odesseiron on
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Comments
Amelyssan was very strategic in her planning, there's no question. But she was already the highest-ranking priestess of Bhaal, which made her ability to pull the Five together less surprising. It also seemed like, when you got down to it, her plan was nothing more than God's Ponzi Scheme- get the marks to pool their resources and then walk away with the bags of cash (or essence) yourself. It took considerable effort, but it was also the medieval fantasy version of a time-honored scam.
Irenicus, on the other hand, was cast out from Suldanessellar, and although he remained a mage of great power, he and Bodhi had to build everything from scratch. Again, setting aside the personality aspect, and thus ignoring the fact he had a weakness for his sister and her depredations, the fact he had her as an ally and had to throw her a bone now and again- leaving the PC's party to Bodhi seemed partly an act of arrogance, but also partly an act designed to keep his sister sated- meant that he had to plan around Bodhi to some degree.
Within all this, he managed to leave a mark around Baldur's Gate (remember the spider mutant thing in Cloakwood?), track the PC to Amn while building a massive laboratory beneath the city, have a contingency plan set up to let him take over Spellhold if his Athkatla base went up in smoke, and had to gather all the power himself to become a god (from the Tree of Life), as opposed to tricking everyone else into doing the work for her like Amelyssan. I'm not knocking her too much for that- Amelyssan's task was one she simply didn't have the power to pull off herself, while Irenicus' was- but I like the personal touch a bit more.
Sarevok I would rank second, but far behind Irenicus. This is in large part due to his very contrived plan to start a war to fuel his ascension, which is quite a leap of logic to simply assume in the first place. And we later learn in ToB that it would never work to begin with, Bhaal had a completely different mechanic in place to ensure his survival, and the Bhaalspawn played little role in that other than as convenient containers for his essence.
I actually edited my post as you posted, adding something I hadn't even thought of: Irenicus was stupid in the fact that he captured charname at all. Instead of tracking down a weaker Bhaalspawn, (which he could easily have done given his power) he instead goes for the guy who just obliterated a well-established organisation, single-handedly took out some mines/camps/bandits/assassins along the way.
He was trying to achieve Godhood, too, as well as vengeance, so any Bhaalspawn essence would have been fine. And what does he do? Go after one of the more powerful Bhaalspawn who just made a name for himself up north. He is causing problems for himself from the start, firstly by dealing with a more powerful Bhaalspawn AND his party, and two, because the game is slanted to be "good-aligned" (considering your starting party in BG2), he doesn't know if there are good heroes who are going to be looking to save charname (because of his good deeds up north) once they learned of his disappearance. So he is potentially dragging so many more people into it, much more than the necessary two he needed. And those two could have easily be found elsewhere.
In short, he didn't learn from Sarevok's mistakes, he basically repeated them. Whereas Amelyssan had a MUCH finer touch to her whole scheme, and actually *relied* on charname's power, instead of underestimating it. She learned from the mistakes of the other two, and used it to her full advantage.
@Sceptenar
If you read what I wrote, I wasn't talking about personalities here, so backstories don't matter. This is a vote to see who is the best villain in terms of their cunning and plotting and the way they did things (and your reasoning for this), not about who you liked the most or who had a cool story.
when you first start out, your foster father Gorion gives you gold, tells you that you have to drop what you're doing and leave *TONIGHT*. And then a mysterious armored man shows up on the trail with his goons, and for some reason he wants you dead. He kills Gorion in front of your eyes, and you still have no idea why he wishes you dead.
Then as you go through the game deciding to focus on the iron shortage, the name "Sarevok" pops up on more than one occasion in the letters to the lackeys that you have killed. You figure he's the head honcho of the operation, and decide to pursue, leading you to Baldur's Gate in search of Sarevok, apparent son and heir to the Iron Throne leader, which is a band of mercenaries residing in Baldur's Gate.
Your investigations end up leading to some horrifying revelations as you find out a ploy involving replacing important figures with Doppelgangers, eventually leading you back to Candlekeep, only to find yourself framed for the slaughter of the Iron Throne, with the man who persuaded you to do it, "Koveras", revealed to be the man who has been hounding you, and working against you: Sarevok, who is also revealed in a will left by Gorion to be your half-brother, and that you both are children of Bhaal, the dead lord of murder.
You find that your friends from Candlekeep are all dead and have been replaced by Doppelgangers, and you are wanted in Baldur's Gate for murder of the Iron Throne, and your only allies to help you stop the Iron Throne's plot are either dead or have been removed of power, and Sarevok is about to be nominated as a duke. You eventually find evidence and stop Sarevok's plans, chasing him and his men down before killing him and finishing the bloody trail once and for all...
See people may wonder why I typed that out, but here's the thing: Sarevok was hunting you down from the very start; to him you were just another stepping stone in his plan, and you find that all the recent problems in the sword coast are linked to him. See, he was in the shadows, never in full sight, but always pulling the strings, and making the plans to force his rise to power. Sure Irenicus is a good villain, but the fact that you never saw Sarevok much until near the end, made me realize he was a good villain simply working in the shadows, out of sight, out of mind. And it was his actions that pushed you on your journey, and made you realize who, or rather, what, you are.
From that perspective, the PC was an excellent choice; the stupid option would have been trying to capture someone like Yaga-Shura or even Illasera.
Edit: It's also worth noting that, according to canon, the PC and Imoen travel together, making them perfect for Irenicus' purposes- a pair of Bhaalspawn, each with better than average power but not so much that they couldn't be handled.
They already know one another, and have proven to be a competent team. Two random Bhaalspawn are much less likely to cause trouble, and would be lost and alone.
As for the "Highlander" theory, this may or may not be true. Even IF it is (which I don't believe, and there is no proof of this) Irenicus already had great power. All he needed was a soul with some divinity imbued into it, he didn't really need any extra powers to achieve his goals. He should have taken the less riskier path and captured two weaker, unrelated Bhaalspawn who hadn't just made a name for themselves up north.
GamingFreak,
Sarevok is the man behind the curtain, yes, but aside from his brief "Koveras" interference, he mostly left you to your own devices and relied far too much on others. A good villain knows if you want something done right, do it yourself. Amelyssan was a great combination of knowing when to "guide" and interfere, and when to back off and do your own thing. If you look at TOB, she is the puppetmaster of everyone relevant in the entire game, pulling strings the entire time.
Sarevok may have hidden from sight (aside from that revelation at the very start, but who's looking at such OBVIOUS revelations, right?), but he did not disguise himself very well, you knew this "Sarevok" was the enemy. Amelyssan was in your face a lot of the time, and you never guessed she was the enemy because she actually did "good" deeds that served her own ends. This is tactical and strategic mastery.
On the planning side: Amelyssan's plan was so obvious, the PCs should have killed her just after the giant! Irenicus hideously underestimated the party but he was the only one to capture the party: twice! Sarevok's planning was sheer brilliance, barring the band of weaklings he took to take on Gorion.
On the evil side: Jon Irenicus the only one having been nice at any stage of his life. Amelyssan betrayed absolutely everyone so she wins this.
I voted Irenicus because he had the best voice acting after all that!
Irenicus is so much more memorable however, and has some incredible lines. He is also the villain with the most backstory (though when Sarevok joins he does give some cool info).
Sarevok had... presence. From the opening cinematic you knew he was someone to be feared, and when he was all "I'm sorry that you feel that way old man" I knew he was a total badass.
Melissan however is so... conniving. I like how she was after your very essence in a way more integral to your characters entire history than Irenicus, who while after the same thing, was not tied to the Bhaalspawn lore as much as the other two main villains. I also think the main story for TOB is actually the best of the three when you factor in Ascension. NOT the best game due to certain shortcomings in character. The lack of side-quests is often lamented at, but I feel like due to the epic nature of the game, and how it is a final revelation of your characters destiny, the story had to be more linear. Melissan made the whole series make sense.
Plus she was one sharp conniving bitch
Anyway, back to the point... Bman: This is exactly why she is so brilliant: She *knows* she is not powerful enough, she is *aware* of that. But that doesn't stop her, she simply finds a way around this. She doesn't even confront charname until she has gathered as much power as possible. Cersei is an absolute amateur when compared to Amelyssan that they can't even be compared. Unlike Cersei, Amelyssan has ties to no one and nothing but herself. She doesn't concern herself with the lives of others and schemes a lot better.
As for Irenicus, the more I think about it, Irenicus is the worst villain. His mistakes are too many.
Sarevok was an urchin, he at least showed resourcefulness and cunning to even get to where he was in his position in the Iron Throne in the first place, and formulate other plans on top of that. Irenicus came from a "privileged" Elven background where he could learn and become powerful in his own time, without worrying about other things. Even this alone makes Sarevok the more resourceful of the two.
Irenicus not only captured the stronger Bhaalspawns (as opposed to finding two weaker ones), but he himself was captured (honestly, casting spells openly and slaughtering thieves in a city which he knew magic is illegal is ridiculous. He could have just teleported away/hidden himself and regrouped his strategy.) Of course, he is apt enough to improvise and get himself out of the situation (high intelligence, low wisdom,) but that doesn't negate the fact that he could have dealt with the situation far better - to the point of not even BEING in such a crappy position in the first place. It wasn't his initial intention to be captured - and he did achieve what he needed to because he is both smart and powerful in the end (at least temporarily). But all that did was make life harder on himself, something a cunning villain would not have to do.
Amelyssan makes no such oversights.
That said Irenicus had better lines and David Warner did a wonderful job wiht his voice (everyone should see him in the show Mad Dogs) and Sarevok was much more memorable. Yet in terms of being the most impressive villain, rather than the coolest villain, Melissan takes it hands down.
The problem with her grand plan is that at any point it could've gone pear shaped on her, and she'd be dead or imprisoned.
Irenicus or Sarevok would either fight their way through, or regroup and rise again on the back of their natural power/drive. Her plans are utterly reliant on events playing out just so, and if things don't go to plan, what's her fall back? She is stripped of all her menace. While the other 2 retain their menace, even in defeat (if left alive)
She's not the most innately powerful in terms of doing physical damage, but her cunning when compared to Irenicus's arrogant blunders and Sarevok's overconfidence puts her over the top.
Also I'm not really a fan of comparing her to Cersei, especially in regards to her "ability as a ruler". This is really and issue. She's not looking to become a responsible caretaker of the Throne of Bhaal, she's looking to amass personal power.
Also it is unfair to compare Sarevok and Irenicus at the height of their powers to Melissan before her plan came to fruition. The Melissan you face at the end of the third game would wipe the floor with a party full of Irenicuses and Sarevoks from BG and SOA.
Also, Sarevok and Irenicus gained their power through many other means. The point is that you can not compare two characters at the height of their power with one who is no where close yet. That is like saying Noober is more powerful than Sarevok because the Noober you encounter in Nashville would crush a 2 year old Sarevok in his crib. The stage of their development matters.
But I agree with the other two being cooler and more memorable. Better characters even. Yet Melissan was the most dangerous villain of the bunch.
Sarevok was a very good villain too, but his grand scheme lacked the purpose and drive of Irenicus'. He also should have been able to kill CHARNAME much earlier, but didn't (I mean after Gorion's battle; he could've taken out CHARNAME later, but never did). Irenicus always has a reason why he's not messing with you; he's either got you imprisoned (Chapter 1), experimenting on Imoen (2), still experimenting on Imoen and helping Bodhi's guild war (3), imprisoning you again (4), allying with the drow (5), invading Suldanssellar (6), or tapping into god power (7). Sarevok should've nipped out and killed you when he had the chance. Melissan doesn't suffer in this regard, though, since she had to wait to get the power to kill you and did.
Irenicus blends cunning, planning, and being a believable villain into one evil package. Sarevok has cunning, and half points for planning and being believable, and Melissan has cunning and full points for planning. Neither, though, stack up to Irenicus.
Exactly, and she failed with the most powerful of them, Balthazar. What if the charname didn't get there in time. or died, or went off somewhere else? It served the stories purpose that her elaborate schemes actually worked, because otherwise it'd have been a pretty crappy climax
It was always apparent to the player that she would either a. try to take the power for herself or b. try to end ALL Bhaaslpawn (like Balthazaar). You can't use your knowledge on fictional archetypes to judge this situation ****
****unless you are Elan from The Order of the Stick
He also defeated you twice. His only folly was allowing his sister to feed off of you instead of ending your life. He had bigger plans that didn't involve you. He had his own vengeance and revenge and you were merely a stepping stone, not a threat to his plans.
My only beef with Amelyssan was a detect evil/know alignment spell would of outed her from the start. My first play through I had my suspicions from the first time I met her as well and only played along to get other bhaalspawns out of the way. But I do agree and respect your reasonings behind liking her more.