I've run into more than 15 Kobolds Commando in Firewine, in the dungeon, killed em' all, I must have a screenshotie some where! And they spawn DAMN too fast, not like G Glabrezu in UnderSigil in PS:T.
Not to mention all the traps that you haven't detected yet, so your character doesn't know they're there.
"Hmm, this hallways is really crowded with people. I know! I'll meander around the other way! (Even though by the time I get there, the fight will be over). *CLICK!* Huh? What was--AHHHH!"
I've also the impression that the spawning system in BG1:EE is still not working as it should, and having on my laptop multiple installs (BG1:EE, vanilla BG1, BGTutu, BGT, and BG2), I'm in the position to actually test this.
However, my first test was kind of discomforting:
BGEE (with latest patch applied), in area AR2700 (the one where Gorion dies), party of two (Imoen and CHARNAME), on Insanity difficulty level, character level increased with the console to BG1EE cap for test purpose, I only encountered one (I repeat one) Gibberling and two Black Bears in the whole map. For comparison on Tutu on Insanity you would get something like 16 Gibberlings, 12 (Dread, Dire and/or Plain) Wolves and 10 Black Bears (I'm not making these numbers up, they are from the actual Tutu spawning scripts) and while I agree that in Tutu there were (especially at higher difficulty levels) more spawns than vanilla, I can't believe that getting a single Gibberling in BG1:EE is how it is supposed to be.
Spawns are partly random, so it is possible I've been very unlucky in my first test and so more tests are in order, I will post again in several days from now, when I have more informations.
@Chaotic_Good: Talking dirty? I'm sorry, but I think you'll have to look up the definition of that expression again. Either that or you're using it in the wrong context here. Either way, keep your insinuations to yourself.
I've also the impression that the spawning system in BG1:EE is still not working as it should, and having on my laptop multiple installs (BG1:EE, vanilla BG1, BGTutu, BGT, and BG2), I'm in the position to actually test this.
However, my first test was kind of discomforting:
BGEE (with latest patch applied), in area AR2700 (the one where Gorion dies), party of two (Imoen and CHARNAME), on Insanity difficulty level, character level increased with the console to BG1EE cap for test purpose, I only encountered one (I repeat one) Gibberling and two Black Bears in the whole map. For comparison on Tutu on Insanity you would get something like 16 Gibberlings, 12 (Dread, Dire and/or Plain) Wolves and 10 Black Bears (I'm not making these numbers up, they are from the actual Tutu spawning scripts) and while I agree that in Tutu there were (especially at higher difficulty levels) more spawns than vanilla, I can't believe that getting a single Gibberling in BG1:EE is how it is supposed to be.
Spawns are partly random, so it is possible I've been very unlucky in my first test and so more tests are in order, I will post again in several days from now, when I have more informations.
A gibberling, a wolf and a few black bears is pretty much all vanilla had on that map. Its all random and based on party level/size I'm sure, but for level 1 (with only you and imoen) thats not unusual.
that is what I would like to see. I was relatively new and never got around to tutu, but I feel I haven't gotten much more than what he got in EE in vanilla. at the very least I think I may have had harder opponents. this works both ways too, as the exp from all those tutu encounters would surely give you many more levels than with the normal random encounters.
For comparison on Tutu on Insanity you would get something like 16 Gibberlings, 12 (Dread, Dire and/or Plain) Wolves and 10 Black Bears (I'm not making these numbers up, they are from the actual Tutu spawning scripts) and while I agree that in Tutu there were (especially at higher difficulty levels) more spawns than vanilla, I can't believe that getting a single Gibberling in BG1:EE is how it is supposed to be.
Did Tutu really adjust spawning rates for different difficulties? I don't remember that ever being the case in BG2 (BG1 didn't even have a difficulty slider as far as I can remember) and I'm almost positive that it doesn't affect the spawns in BG:EE (for better or for worse).
I'm not sure exactly how the spawning in these games work- are spawns populated when you enter an area, and then kept static for some time? If so, changing your party's levels might not change the spawns since they've already been populated for a level 1, two person party. You might need to force the game to repopulate spawns to get a good result.
The spawning system in Tutu is totally different from vanilla and EE and it is based on scripts that spawn increasingly more enemies based on the difficulty level.
Under the spoiler tag you can find an example:
IF GlobalTimerExpired("CDSpawnTimer","LOCALS") Global("CD_GIBBER2Spawn","LOCALS",1) !Range([PC],60) Difficulty(EASIEST) THEN RESPONSE #100 SetGlobal("CD_GIBBER2Spawn","LOCALS",2) CreateCreature("_GIBBER2",[-1.-1],0) // Diseased Gibberling CreateCreature("_GIBBER2",[-1.-1],8) // Diseased Gibberling END
IF GlobalTimerExpired("CDSpawnTimer","LOCALS") Global("CD_GIBBER2Spawn","LOCALS",1) !Range([PC],60) Difficulty(EASY) THEN RESPONSE #100 SetGlobal("CD_GIBBER2Spawn","LOCALS",2) CreateCreature("_GIBBER2",[-1.-1],0) // Diseased Gibberling CreateCreature("_GIBBER2",[-1.-1],4) // Diseased Gibberling CreateCreature("_GIBBER2",[-1.-1],8) // Diseased Gibberling CreateCreature("_GIBBER2",[-1.-1],12) // Diseased Gibberling END
I've also the impression that the spawning system in BG1:EE is still not working as it should, and having on my laptop multiple installs (BG1:EE, vanilla BG1, BGTutu, BGT, and BG2), I'm in the position to actually test this.
However, my first test was kind of discomforting:
BGEE (with latest patch applied), in area AR2700 (the one where Gorion dies), party of two (Imoen and CHARNAME), on Insanity difficulty level, character level increased with the console to BG1EE cap for test purpose, I only encountered one (I repeat one) Gibberling and two Black Bears in the whole map. For comparison on Tutu on Insanity you would get something like 16 Gibberlings, 12 (Dread, Dire and/or Plain) Wolves and 10 Black Bears (I'm not making these numbers up, they are from the actual Tutu spawning scripts) and while I agree that in Tutu there were (especially at higher difficulty levels) more spawns than vanilla, I can't believe that getting a single Gibberling in BG1:EE is how it is supposed to be.
Spawns are partly random, so it is possible I've been very unlucky in my first test and so more tests are in order, I will post again in several days from now, when I have more informations.
What are these tests proving, exactly, that BG:EE doesn't spawn enough gibberlings to challenge a max-level group? No amount of gibberlings would challenge a max-level party.
What are these tests proving, exactly, that BG:EE doesn't spawn enough gibberlings to challenge a max-level group? No amount of gibberlings would challenge a max-level party.
I would like to test this theory. How many gibberlings would it take to kill a max-level party. Keep them spawning till the party's dead.
Technically gibberlings could eventually kill a max level party... But they would need to roll a 20 to hit... and even then deal like 2 or 3 damage... But that happens enough times a character will go down... Though you can heal, but clerics have limit amounts of heal spells... It'll take a few days but it should eventually happen.
Even at proper lv there is a huge difference in tutu compared to ee its funny how you try to belittle such a huge difference. In coast way first time there would always be at least 6 bandits on the south path in ee its 0-3 most often on the low end. There were even mods to increase the spawn rate further in tutu. I don't know what the spawn rates are in vanilla not that it matters, but in ee it was a known issue and the patch to fix the problem seemed to have little effect at least in my play.
I will say, now, definitively, that the goal of the Enhanced Edition has never been to rebuild Tutu. If you're comparing the spawn rates between EE and Tutu, you're doing it wrong.
Compare the rates between EE and Vanilla, and then report the discrepancies.
I seems a bit disingenuous to say you were trying to create one or the other when what you have created is a modded version of Baldur's Gate very simular to tutu. Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't a member of your team work on tutu?
I seems a bit disingenuous to say you were trying to create one or the other when what you have created is a modded version of Baldur's Gate very simular to tutu. Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't a member of your team work on tutu?
It isn't a mod. Excuse the pun, but it an overhaul of the original game that integrates the concept of other mods right into the code of the base game instead of overlaying it. They may look to previous mods as inspiration, but that does not mean they'll use everything that mod had to offer.
I seems a bit disingenuous to say you were trying to create one or the other when what you have created is a modded version of Baldur's Gate very simular to tutu. Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't a member of your team work on tutu?
You are comparing things changed by mods to things they tried to recreate the way they were without those mods...
You are saying EE is not the same as Tutu, when it is not supposed to be Tutu...
Tell you what, I will acknowledge the hate for BGEE as rational if you get me an install of BG1 that does everything (except possibly the Black Pits) as the Enhanced Edition does... Kits including the new ones, higher resolution support, zooming and the game fixes...
I will say, now, definitively, that the goal of the Enhanced Edition has never been to rebuild Tutu. If you're comparing the spawn rates between EE and Tutu, you're doing it wrong.
Compare the rates between EE and Vanilla, and then report the discrepancies.
While I agree that it is only fair to compare the rates between EE and vanilla, I believe it would be interesting (at least it is for me) to report also the numbers for Tutu. I'm just curious about them.
However, if the goal of the Enhanced Edition has never been to rebuild Tutu, why
1) the proficiency system is the same of Tutu and not vanilla.
2) magic resistance doesn't affects friendly spells like in Tutu, instead of working like in vanilla.
3) the engine share more similarity with the one used by Tutu (BG2/TOB) than the one used by vanilla (BG1)
etc.
Can you mention some other aspects of the EE, other than the spawning system, that are more close to vanilla than Tutu ? I'm really asking for a clarification, with no polemic intent, because it is possible I'm overlooking something here.
It's a logical fallacy to say that because Tutu uses the BGII engine and because BG:EE uses an enhanced version of the BGII engine, then BG:EE must have been modeled after Tutu. BG:EE uses an enhanced version of the BGII engine because the BGII engine is the more advanced version of Infinity.
I don't think it's strange that the proficiency [Edit: system] has been made the same across both games, nor any other mechanic such as magic resistance. Both of these things match BGII, not Tutu. If you're going to start calling BGII "Tutu", then we can throw the whole thing out right now.
Tutu changes the spawn rates for the first BG game. It doesn't fix them; all it does is change them. If you've been playing Tutu for years and then move to BG:EE you're going to notice the difference, just as you're going to notice the difference if you go from Tutu to vanilla BG.
Just out of curiosity, why was it called Tutu? It sounds like was meant to be a kind of Baldur's Gate Ballet production. Not that that would be a bad thing, its just that the name always struck me as, well… really weird.
"You are saying EE is not the same as Tutu, when it is not supposed to be Tutu..."
I am comparing two modifications of the same product and erg has been kind enough to test them for us. I am not sure why you guys get so hung up on semantics whether you compare one to the other or each to the original the resulting improvement or lack there of are the same.. each with it's own weight in respect to game play. This is even more obscene when EE was so obviously modeled after tutu. There is nothing hateful about anything I have said I have only listed things that I find to be detriment in explanation of why EE gets so much "hate". Here is some real hate "I think that these changes were intended so that the game could be sold and played on ios despite its reduced functionality without any respect to the fans that play on computer, and any good reviews it has gotten are strictly due to nostalgia" see the difference.
Edit: If the spawn rates in just tutu were really that much higher I guess I just got spoiled..lol. Did you give it a test @Erg ?
Edit 2: If this was the issue why admit error after the game came out and why patch for it lol?
Honestly, really, the Enhanced Editions are not modelled after Tutu. The team that put together the EE engine in the first place didn't even play Tutu.
BGEE (with latest patch applied), in area AR2700 (the one where Gorion dies), party of two (Imoen and CHARNAME), on Insanity difficulty level, character level increased with the console to BG1EE cap for test purpose, I only encountered one (I repeat one) Gibberling and two Black Bears in the whole map. For comparison on Tutu on Insanity you would get something like 16 Gibberlings, 12 (Dread, Dire and/or Plain) Wolves and 10 Black Bears (I'm not making these numbers up, they are from the actual Tutu spawning scripts) and while I agree that in Tutu there were (especially at higher difficulty levels) more spawns than vanilla, I can't believe that getting a single Gibberling in BG1:EE is how it is supposed to be.
That's how it's supposed to be.
The original game engine based "random" enemy spawns on the number of people in your party and, iirc, your level. The more NPCs you have with you, the bigger the spawn groups when you entered an area. (Since Baldur's Gate was open world, the developers couldn't assume you'd pick up every NPC nearby and be walking down the Coast Highway with 5 other people at any given time.)
The BG2 engine always assumed you had a full party, so the spawns in that game were set at a fixed number. They don't change based on the size of your group.
Tutu was based on the BG2 engine, which is why you get crazy big spawn groups very early on in the game.
If you really want to see the difference, buy the original game from GoG and play it unmodded. Traveling from Candlekeep to the FAI, you'll be lucky to run into more than one wolf and maybe a random Gibberling.
Edit: I know that BG:EE is based on the BG2 engine too, but it's obvious the devs made some workaround to it so that the game performed as it originally did.
Edit 2: If this was the issue why admit error after the game came out and why patch for it lol?
Because it was an error. Some spawns such as the gnoll fortress had significantly less spawns than vanilla BG had. They admitted it was an error and they fixed that error in a patch. I don't see how admitting honestly to ones mistakes and then correcting said mistake is funny.
Comments
"Hmm, this hallways is really crowded with people. I know! I'll meander around the other way! (Even though by the time I get there, the fight will be over). *CLICK!* Huh? What was--AHHHH!"
I cry. Every. Time. ;_;
However, my first test was kind of discomforting:
BGEE (with latest patch applied), in area AR2700 (the one where Gorion dies), party of two (Imoen and CHARNAME), on Insanity difficulty level, character level increased with the console to BG1EE cap for test purpose, I only encountered one (I repeat one) Gibberling and two Black Bears in the whole map. For comparison on Tutu on Insanity you would get something like 16 Gibberlings, 12 (Dread, Dire and/or Plain) Wolves and 10 Black Bears (I'm not making these numbers up, they are from the actual Tutu spawning scripts) and while I agree that in Tutu there were (especially at higher difficulty levels) more spawns than vanilla, I can't believe that getting a single Gibberling in BG1:EE is how it is supposed to be.
Spawns are partly random, so it is possible I've been very unlucky in my first test and so more tests are in order, I will post again in several days from now, when I have more informations.
I'm not sure exactly how the spawning in these games work- are spawns populated when you enter an area, and then kept static for some time? If so, changing your party's levels might not change the spawns since they've already been populated for a level 1, two person party. You might need to force the game to repopulate spawns to get a good result.
Yes, it is my intention to test vanilla too.
@Mitchfork
The spawning system in Tutu is totally different from vanilla and EE and it is based on scripts that spawn increasingly more enemies based on the difficulty level.
Under the spoiler tag you can find an example:
In this example we have 2 (EASY), 4 (NORMAL), 6 (CORE), 7 (HARD) or 8 (INSANE) Gibberlings respectively.
Edit: of course there is a difficulty slider in vanilla too (see picture under the spoiler tag below), Tutu uses the one from the BG2 engine instead.
Compare the rates between EE and Vanilla, and then report the discrepancies.
You are saying EE is not the same as Tutu, when it is not supposed to be Tutu...
Tell you what, I will acknowledge the hate for BGEE as rational if you get me an install of BG1 that does everything (except possibly the Black Pits) as the Enhanced Edition does... Kits including the new ones, higher resolution support, zooming and the game fixes...
While I agree that it is only fair to compare the rates between EE and vanilla, I believe it would be interesting (at least it is for me) to report also the numbers for Tutu. I'm just curious about them.
However, if the goal of the Enhanced Edition has never been to rebuild Tutu, why
1) the proficiency system is the same of Tutu and not vanilla.
2) magic resistance doesn't affects friendly spells like in Tutu, instead of working like in vanilla.
3) the engine share more similarity with the one used by Tutu (BG2/TOB) than the one used by vanilla (BG1)
etc.
Can you mention some other aspects of the EE, other than the spawning system, that are more close to vanilla than Tutu ? I'm really asking for a clarification, with no polemic intent, because it is possible I'm overlooking something here.
I don't think it's strange that the proficiency [Edit: system] has been made the same across both games, nor any other mechanic such as magic resistance. Both of these things match BGII, not Tutu. If you're going to start calling BGII "Tutu", then we can throw the whole thing out right now.
Tutu changes the spawn rates for the first BG game. It doesn't fix them; all it does is change them. If you've been playing Tutu for years and then move to BG:EE you're going to notice the difference, just as you're going to notice the difference if you go from Tutu to vanilla BG.
I am comparing two modifications of the same product and erg has been kind enough to test them for us. I am not sure why you guys get so hung up on semantics whether you compare one to the other or each to the original the resulting improvement or lack there of are the same.. each with it's own weight in respect to game play. This is even more obscene when EE was so obviously modeled after tutu. There is nothing hateful about anything I have said I have only listed things that I find to be detriment in explanation of why EE gets so much "hate". Here is some real hate "I think that these changes were intended so that the game could be sold and played on ios despite its reduced functionality without any respect to the fans that play on computer, and any good reviews it has gotten are strictly due to nostalgia" see the difference.
Edit: If the spawn rates in just tutu were really that much higher I guess I just got spoiled..lol. Did you give it a test @Erg ?
Edit 2: If this was the issue why admit error after the game came out and why patch for it lol?
The original game engine based "random" enemy spawns on the number of people in your party and, iirc, your level. The more NPCs you have with you, the bigger the spawn groups when you entered an area. (Since Baldur's Gate was open world, the developers couldn't assume you'd pick up every NPC nearby and be walking down the Coast Highway with 5 other people at any given time.)
The BG2 engine always assumed you had a full party, so the spawns in that game were set at a fixed number. They don't change based on the size of your group.
Tutu was based on the BG2 engine, which is why you get crazy big spawn groups very early on in the game.
If you really want to see the difference, buy the original game from GoG and play it unmodded. Traveling from Candlekeep to the FAI, you'll be lucky to run into more than one wolf and maybe a random Gibberling.
Edit: I know that BG:EE is based on the BG2 engine too, but it's obvious the devs made some workaround to it so that the game performed as it originally did.