OP presents fairly useful thoughts on how certain cleric spells and wizard spells can rock, but most people already know this. Flawed reasoning used to arrive at claim cleric/mage is 'the most powerful'.
There's a more concise/to the point thread on these forums on specific cleric/mage combos (vs rather general comments on a handful spells unrelated to whether caster is a cleric/mage or not):
This is interesting, but final power is not everything on character. How much exp is needed for a Mage/Cleric to get level 9 spells? Because if it takes 90% of the game for a Cleric/Mage to catch up with a plain Sorceror in term of spell power, I do not feel it's worth the trade.
What make a thief/mage or fighter/mage interesting is because you can cast AND swing a weapon during the same round, so you truly cumulate the power of the two sides of your two classes. But you won't cast more spells per rounds with a Cleric/Mage anyway, than you do with a simple Mage...
While it gives more option to have both divine and arcane magic on the same char, you pay this by the spell level being late during almost all the game, and if you are late in power during 90% of the game, only to be Superior by the 10 last %.... does it truly count as being "the most powerful" ?
Not even pointing out that during that last 10%, a mage doesn't need any inch of extra power: he utterly obliterate anything anyway.
Final power for any two class multiclass to reach level 9 spells is 6,000,000 Exp, level 8 at 4,500,000 Exp.
Until that point, the Cleric/Mage must settle for merely having:
* Massive numbers of long lasting buffs to help make them immune to pretty much every single thing that could be cast on or done to them.
* The second best THAC0 progression in the game - Yes, way better than thieves (the multiclass hits 10 THAC0 barely ~1.2e6 after the single class Thief does, and goes all the way down to 6). Better weapons, too.
* Five different magic resistance ignoring damage spells options.
* Contingencies to cure them of stuns and holds, should one somehow get through the aforementioned immunities.
* Horrid Wilting jr. Aka Holy Smite, the original Magic Damage party friendly AOE which also blinds.
* The ability to use shields and helmets for complete immunity to ranged weapons and some of the best hats for elemental resistance.
* Sequencered cleric buffs that allow them to turn into unstoppable 5 APR spider tanks of doom with 25 Strength and magical paralysing ghoul touches. Or just 25 strength, 8 APR sling throwers.
* Being able to summon an army of virtually magic immune skeleton warriors for the cost of a few level 3 cleric spells (of which they can easily have 11 of, per day, per Image).
* Being able to disintegrate some of the most obnoxious enemies in the game by glaring at them.
* Still being able to use HLA spells to summon Devas, drop implosions, and disrupt the crap out of mages with Energy Blades (which they use better than any pure mage).
* Being able to sequencer ridiculous sequencer shenanigans that would make Edwin green with envy.
* Getting over sixty spells per day before the end of the SoA cap. You jelly?
* Being able to heal, buff and maintain a full party of six with the spells left over from being a consumnate badass.
So while they may not get level 9 spells early, it really doesn't matter to the Cleric/Mage that other mages get to use Timestop, because they're immune to anything that mages can do during timestop. Dragon's Breath, because they're immune to fire. Horrid Wiltings, because they're immune to magic damage, or Planetars, because they beat planetars to sticky paste with a hammer.
While "best class" is largely theoretical given the Rocket Tag nature of high level mage fights, if you understand your spell picks the C/M is one of the strongest characters throughout the entire trilogy.
That's a pretty impressive list, for sure... but the Fighter/Mage can probably the same AND be able to pull both his strength in the same round.
I'm not that impressed.
I would agree that "most powerful" is a subjective term. However, I used to play F/M almost exclusively and finally got bored with it. Both classes can be powerhouses if used properly.
Note that it is no longer possible to use spider form for increased APR in EE with any weapon. Now, if you dispel the spider weapon, you return to natural form and your original 1 APR.
Of course, currently it's possible in EE to get 5 APR by throwing some Minute Meteors and running out, since a bug makes your APR stick at that value. This, however, only applies to melee weapons; the APR bug doesn't apply to missile weapons. You can also do this with darts and arrows.
Note that it is no longer possible to use spider form for increased APR in EE with any weapon. Now, if you dispel the spider weapon, you return to natural form and your original 1 APR.
Of course, currently it's possible in EE to get 5 APR by throwing some Minute Meteors and running out, since a bug makes your APR stick at that value. This, however, only applies to melee weapons; the APR bug doesn't apply to missile weapons. You can also do this with darts and arrows.
I don't count bug exploits as part of any evaluation of power of a class, personnaly. But, well, that's perhaps just me...
I prefer to include them for completion, but even bug free, we're still talking 4 APR with a Spiritual Hammer +3 or a stoneskins and PfMW bypassing 4 APR Flame Blade, with 20+ Strength when the C/M wants to melee.
That's a pretty impressive list, for sure... but the Fighter/Mage can probably the same AND be able to pull both his strength in the same round.
I'm not that impressed.
The fighter cannot heal , cannot turn undead, cannot buff. In the end, a lot depends on the party composition when it gets to evaluate what is *best* in a certain set of conditions. Absolute judgment isn't possible. There are pros and cons to every build decision.
Most of the Fighter/Mage's buffs are defensive in nature, with the notable exceptions of Fire Shield and Improved Haste, and so they don't get much in the way of spells that help them hit harder. Clerics, conversely, get stuff like DuHM and Righteous Magic. From a party standpoint there's also prebuffing with spells like Bless, Chant, Aid, and Protection from Evil 10'.
Defensive... Defensive.... you mean... like "once someone took 10 auto-hit auto-critical APR during a whole Time Stop, they can't harm you since you turned them into pulp" ?
Defensive... Defensive.... you mean... like "once someone took 10 auto-hit auto-critical APR during a whole Time Stop, they can't harm you since you turned them into pulp" ?
Generally I would suggest for the Cleric/Mage this would be: "Defensive: Someone just cast improved alacrity, improved haste, timestop, wail of the banshee x3, dragon's breath x3 and used three Critical Strikes at 10 APR against you... And you survived it and killed them with 60D8+120 Fireshield damage".
If we're going into class strength versus class strength, then the fact that one of the Cleric's class strengths is "prebuffing to immortality and having an army of skeletons to do your bidding", we can sort of say that yes, the Mage/Cleric gets to combine two of their strengths very nicely. More so when you include Spell Triggers quite literally combining Mage and Cleric spells to cast instantly at the same time.
Defensive... Defensive.... you mean... like "once someone took 10 auto-hit auto-critical APR during a whole Time Stop, they can't harm you since you turned them into pulp" ?
Funny thing, but yes, Time Stop is essentially a defensive spell. I forget who first observed this (either Pantalion or Lord Tansheron), but Time Stop prevents any of your other party members from doing damage, and it's salient feature is that it prevents enemies from doing anything. If you're attacking someone with Improved Haste + Critical Strike (I assume that's what you're referring to), you're already auto-hitting, so the auto-hit feature of Time Stop isn't even relevant.
Love the Cleric/Mage but not as the protagonist. I personally bring Aerie to fill the role and tell her to stop whining about her wings. Fighter/Cleric is another very strong class but I leave that to Anomen and/or Jaheira. Mage/Thief is a great combo but I leave it to Jan. I usually end up making the protagonist a Fighter/Mage since for some dumb reason there is no NPC with this set up and even if there was they probably wouldnt have the 95+ roll on their abilities that I do.
Comments
There's a more concise/to the point thread on these forums on specific cleric/mage combos (vs rather general comments on a handful spells unrelated to whether caster is a cleric/mage or not):
https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/47354/superaerie-power-tactics-for-the-c-m-spoilers#latest
Because if it takes 90% of the game for a Cleric/Mage to catch up with a plain Sorceror in term of spell power, I do not feel it's worth the trade.
What make a thief/mage or fighter/mage interesting is because you can cast AND swing a weapon during the same round, so you truly cumulate the power of the two sides of your two classes.
But you won't cast more spells per rounds with a Cleric/Mage anyway, than you do with a simple Mage...
While it gives more option to have both divine and arcane magic on the same char, you pay this by the spell level being late during almost all the game, and if you are late in power during 90% of the game, only to be Superior by the 10 last %.... does it truly count as being "the most powerful" ?
Not even pointing out that during that last 10%, a mage doesn't need any inch of extra power: he utterly obliterate anything anyway.
Until that point, the Cleric/Mage must settle for merely having:
* Massive numbers of long lasting buffs to help make them immune to pretty much every single thing that could be cast on or done to them.
* The second best THAC0 progression in the game - Yes, way better than thieves (the multiclass hits 10 THAC0 barely ~1.2e6 after the single class Thief does, and goes all the way down to 6). Better weapons, too.
* Five different magic resistance ignoring damage spells options.
* Contingencies to cure them of stuns and holds, should one somehow get through the aforementioned immunities.
* Horrid Wilting jr. Aka Holy Smite, the original Magic Damage party friendly AOE which also blinds.
* The ability to use shields and helmets for complete immunity to ranged weapons and some of the best hats for elemental resistance.
* Sequencered cleric buffs that allow them to turn into unstoppable 5 APR spider tanks of doom with 25 Strength and magical paralysing ghoul touches. Or just 25 strength, 8 APR sling throwers.
* Being able to summon an army of virtually magic immune skeleton warriors for the cost of a few level 3 cleric spells (of which they can easily have 11 of, per day, per Image).
* Being able to disintegrate some of the most obnoxious enemies in the game by glaring at them.
* Still being able to use HLA spells to summon Devas, drop implosions, and disrupt the crap out of mages with Energy Blades (which they use better than any pure mage).
* Being able to sequencer ridiculous sequencer shenanigans that would make Edwin green with envy.
* Getting over sixty spells per day before the end of the SoA cap. You jelly?
* Being able to heal, buff and maintain a full party of six with the spells left over from being a consumnate badass.
So while they may not get level 9 spells early, it really doesn't matter to the Cleric/Mage that other mages get to use Timestop, because they're immune to anything that mages can do during timestop. Dragon's Breath, because they're immune to fire. Horrid Wiltings, because they're immune to magic damage, or Planetars, because they beat planetars to sticky paste with a hammer.
While "best class" is largely theoretical given the Rocket Tag nature of high level mage fights, if you understand your spell picks the C/M is one of the strongest characters throughout the entire trilogy.
I'm not that impressed.
Of course, currently it's possible in EE to get 5 APR by throwing some Minute Meteors and running out, since a bug makes your APR stick at that value. This, however, only applies to melee weapons; the APR bug doesn't apply to missile weapons. You can also do this with darts and arrows.
Lesser Sequencer Shocking Touch + Strength = Shocking touch goes away, spider form doesn't.
But, well, that's perhaps just me...
Absolute judgment isn't possible. There are pros and cons to every build decision.
If we're going into class strength versus class strength, then the fact that one of the Cleric's class strengths is "prebuffing to immortality and having an army of skeletons to do your bidding", we can sort of say that yes, the Mage/Cleric gets to combine two of their strengths very nicely. More so when you include Spell Triggers quite literally combining Mage and Cleric spells to cast instantly at the same time.