It wouldn't affect BG:EE since Bards cap at level 10, when they can cast level 4 spells max, and the scroll for Tenser's doesn't exist even if you remove the cap.
Why should it not disable non-magical ability use? It imposes a form of Berserk on the caster, there is far more it should be disabling that it doesn't - Item Use, Thief Skills, Dialog, Bard Song, Player Control. Its drawbacks were already heavily nerfed to begin with, no need for more.
Implicitly, Tenser's seems to suggest that it cannot be combined with other buffs. It's the single best pure combat enhancement in the game.
But if you reverse them, you get 3 rounds of a combined buff, and then a long time with just Tenser's. A rule change and game patch seems like a lot of work for just a single extra round of overpowered pwnage.
One round is 6 seconds, so the offensive spin actually lasts 4 rounds. And you get one every 5 levels, so a lvl 20 blade could spin for 20 rounds, with 4 short intermittents in between.
Implicitly, Tenser's seems to suggest that it cannot be combined with other buffs. It's the single best pure combat enhancement in the game.
But if you reverse them, you get 3 rounds of a combined buff, and then a long time with just Tenser's. A rule change and game patch seems like a lot of work for just a single extra round of overpowered pwnage.
One round is 6 seconds, so the offensive spin actually lasts 4 rounds. And you get one every 5 levels, so a lvl 20 blade could spin for 20 rounds, with 4 short intermittents in between.
You have to wait one round to cast Tenser's after casting Spin, meaning you lose one round of the combined effect. So cast Spin, wait one round, cast tenser's, get 3 round approx of combined effect before Spin ends and you only have Tenser's.
Edit, now that I think of it: TT has a casting time of 6, so if you cast Spin, then get the aura preventing casting for a round, then cast TT with it's 6 sec delay, doesn't that mean you in practice only get 2 rounds of the combined effect from Spin+TT?
You are correct though about the latter comment; if it had worked the other way around, high level bards would probably rush from fight to fight using a combo of chained Spin with TT to get the most out of the combo.
Implicitly, Tenser's seems to suggest that it cannot be combined with other buffs. It's the single best pure combat enhancement in the game.
But if you reverse them, you get 3 rounds of a combined buff, and then a long time with just Tenser's. A rule change and game patch seems like a lot of work for just a single extra round of overpowered pwnage.
Tenser's is not the single best pure combat enhancement in the game. It's definitely not the single best pure combat enhancement on page six of a mage's spellbook, and it's arguably not even the single best combat enhancement in the Tenser's Transformation / Offensive Spin combo. (That'll depend a lot on your THACO and APR before buffing.)
If you don't have strength-boosters (i.e. if you're starting from 16-18 strength), Tenser's is also inferior to Righteous Magic. Something like Boon of Lathander also goes through the same calculus of base APR vs. unbuffed THACO as offensive spin.
If you count Melf's Minute Meteors and Energy Blades as "pure combat enhancements", I'd say both of those trump Tenser's, too. As does Shapechange. And if we're throwing HLAs into the mix, Greater Whirlwind and Hardiness are both worthy contenders.
Anyway, the point of making Offensive Spin work while Tenser's is active isn't that it gets you 2-3 extra rounds of Offensive Spin, it's that it lets you prebuff with Tenser's before combat starts (because I'd rather not combat-cast something with a casting speed of six if I can help it), then engage and pop the shorter-duration Offensive Spin. Plus another one if the first runs out, and one after that if the second runs out and combat is still ongoing.
If this were IWD Tenser's, I could see making it incompatible with everything else. I soloed IWD when it first came out with a Conjurer who basically just cast nothing but Tenser's over the second half of the game, including the final battle.
But BG2 Tenser's? It's just not that amazing of an effect. And besides, my understanding of the spell is "this spell turns you into a fighter". Which is great, but fighters can still trigger innate abilities like Whirlwind and Berserk, right?
Or maybe like the description says, it's supposed to turn you into a berserked fighter. But again, Korgan can still activate Greater Whirlwind while he's mid-berserk. So why can't Haer'Dalis activate Offensive Spin while he's mid-Tenser's?
I'm just not seeing why you think this crosses the line into deserving to be improved, while a hundred other things don't.
It's not something that I'm bothered about myself, but I can certainly understand the argument for a change - there's nothing in the description of Tenser's suggesting that it should block special abilities (unless you consider that the spell should be implemented with a version of berserking that results in a total loss of control over the character - and that has not been done).
In pure melee combat I agree Tenser's is not that wonderful a spell. In practice the AC benefit probably disappears as it only takes effect up to AC -10 and other buffs normally mean the HP increase won't be called upon. I do though like the spell against some enemies with special attacks - like dragons - particularly for a bard that doesn't have the best mage summons.
It would make a big difference if the spell gave an APR increase as you suggested in your post. Not only would that make Tenser's significantly more powerful itself, but I could then better understand the argument there would be unintended duplication between Tenser's and spin. However, Tenser's does not provide an APR increase and there is no overlap between its effects and spin. Therefore it comes back to the argument as to whether or not Tenser's should prohibit special abilities. It doesn't stop HLAs, it doesn't stop Bhaal abilities - why should it stop spin?
Is that a question of lore, logic, or game balance? The answer will be different every time.
Lore and logic are covered in my original post - there's nothing in the spell description suggesting it should stop special abilities and the spell does not in fact stop most special abilities.
I also touched on game balance in the sense that Tenser's and spin don't affect the same things (so there's not the same conflict as with Tenser's and haste for instance). Personally I wouldn't be bothered about using Tenser's and spin anyway as I would be happy to combine it with improved haste - but that just suggests to me that allowing spin with Tenser's isn't really an issue with game balance either.
Lore and logic are covered in my original post - there's nothing in the spell description suggesting it should stop special abilities and the spell does not in fact stop most special abilities.
Spell descriptions are hardly a measure to go by, considering how strangely so many spells work and how rudimentary and superficial most descriptions are.
From lore/logic, you could simply argue that Offensive Spin takes too much concentration to also maintain a spell like Tenser's, which from its effect seems to suggest it occupies a lot of mental capacity (hence no other spells). But since that is all entirely fictitious, you could come up with any number of reasons more or less contrived to make it go either way.
In terms of game balance, there are many aspects to consider. Would Tenser+Spin immediately break the game wide open? Probably not. Does it not working in concert create a gaping chasm of difficulty no Blade can overcome? Also very much no. In the end, design decisions have to be made. One of those was limiting what Offensive Spin can stack with. There really isn't a particularly strong argument one way or the other, so you have to settle for weak ones.
Luckily, everyone can mod the game exactly the way they want, so there's your solution right there.
Is it? If it is in fact a bug, then of course they should fix it - I'm not arguing from ideology here. But if it is working as intended, then I don't see much reason to change anything. (And I'm always going to overwrite it with the SR version anyway )
it is because: 1. it's part of a wider malfunction (can't use hla and other special abilities during tenser's) 2. the rules don't accommodate for the status quo (disabled spells does not mean disabled offensive spin)
to have the status quo not be considered a bug the following would have to be done (which would also make it a kind of a pseudo- status quo): 1. the general bug is fixed, so you can use hlas, kai etc 2. the specific behavior of offensive spin being disabled by tenser's is reintroduced 3. you amend the rules so that they read: spells and offensive spin are disabled
it is because: 1. it's part of a wider malfunction (can't use hla and other special abilities during tenser's) 2. the rules don't accommodate for the status quo (disabled spells does not mean disabled offensive spin)
3. 3. A berserk character is uncontrollable, and cannot use any special abilities, items, skills, or ranged weapons.
to have the status quo not be considered a bug the following would have to be done (which would also make it a kind of a pseudo- status quo): 1. the general bug is fixed, so you can use hlas, kai etc 2. the specific behavior of offensive spin being disabled by tenser's is reintroduced 3. you amend the rules so that they read: spells and offensive spin are disabled
4. it applies actual berserk status, but no disable button/spellcasting effects.
I dunno. Because the concept of the spell is, for the *massive* bonuses you get out of a mid-level spell (~+12 thac0, -4 AC, +1 APR, ~+75 hp), you're not allowed to initiate any other magical buff abilities while it's active. Is that a trade-off? Yeah. Would it be nice (in a way) if you didn't have to make that trade-off? Sure. But wouldn't it also be great if Sleep worked on higher-level enemies, or Web was party-friendly, etc. I'm just not seeing why you think this crosses the line into deserving to be improved, while a hundred other things don't.
As has been mentioned, Tenser's doesn't grant +1 APR in BG2. This seems to be the major source of our disagreement because if it did, I'd concede the point that it should preclude all other buffs. (This is what I was saying when I said if we were talking about IWD Tenser's I'd agree, because IWD Tenser's *does* grant the APR bonus and is therefore amazing.)
Also, I'm remaining silent on questions of "worthwhile use of developer's time" and speaking only to questions of balance and what "makes sense". Allowing Offensive Spin during Tenser's would be more consistent with expected behavior without upsetting the balance of the game, as the "spirit" of Tenser's is "turns you into a fighter", and fighters are perfectly capable of executing innate abilities.
it is because: 1. it's part of a wider malfunction (can't use hla and other special abilities during tenser's) 2. the rules don't accommodate for the status quo (disabled spells does not mean disabled offensive spin)
3. 3. A berserk character is uncontrollable, and cannot use any special abilities, items, skills, or ranged weapons.
to have the status quo not be considered a bug the following would have to be done (which would also make it a kind of a pseudo- status quo): 1. the general bug is fixed, so you can use hlas, kai etc 2. the specific behavior of offensive spin being disabled by tenser's is reintroduced 3. you amend the rules so that they read: spells and offensive spin are disabled
4. it applies actual berserk status, but no disable button/spellcasting effects.
there's some support in the descritpion for this ("berserk fighter") but it's not how the spell was meant to work, neither in IE nor in P&P
there's some support in the descritpion for this ("berserk fighter") but it's not how the spell was meant to work, neither in IE nor in P&P
Player's Handbook:
"... the spell causes the caster to become a berserk fighter! ... The wizard fights in melee in preference to all other forms of attack, and continues attacking until all opponents are slain, he is killed, the magic is dispelled, or the spell duration expires."
I never played P&P with high enough level characters to cast the Tenser's Transformation spell, but I must admit it is clear in the Player's Handbook that berserk status is intended. I'm therefore minded to change my view that not allowing spin is an anomaly - instead the bug with the current spell would seem to be that it allows any controlled actions at all. Of course correcting that would be a pretty major change for people who use the spell regularly ...
Changing TT to not only supress all spell-casting and abilities but to also induce a berzerk status would make it an extremely niche spell. I, for one, would never use it just as I never use Minsc's special ability or the twohanded sword of berzerking. It's just not worth it.
Changing TT to not only supress all spell-casting and abilities but to also induce a berzerk status would make it an extremely niche spell. I, for one, would never use it just as I never use Minsc's special ability or the twohanded sword of berzerking. It's just not worth it.
I'd argue that there's little enough reason to use vanilla TT, anyway. F/Ms don't get the big THACO boost and pure mages, M/Ts, and C/Ms are too reliant on extra APR (which Tenser's doesn't provide).
As it stands, it really only seems like it's worth casting on Blades and Swash>Mages (because they can dual-wield and equip speed weapons to solve their APR needs), or on F>M duals (because they naturally get extra APR / grandmastery but can suffer THACO woes in the latter stages of the game).
I would like to point out, though, that the berserk state as @kjeron describes it is different than Minsc's berserk state or the one induced by the cursed sword of berserking, as there's no chance that you'll wind up attacking your allies and it doesn't persist beyond the death of the final enemy.
Instead, it's basically just like setting a super aggressive script on your caster. They're fine to do whatever they want until they see an enemy, at which point they single-mindedly attack it in melee until it's dead, and then they return to normal.
In some ways, that version of Tenser's would actually be a buff, since it would allow spellcasting during its duration provided no enemies were in sight. If you manage to get into two battles during TT's duration, you could feel free to refresh your buffs between them.
(While that version of Tenser's would be better in some ways, it'd be a lot worse in others in that you couldn't pick your targets, so it'd still probably qualify as a nerf to a spell that already isn't all that good.)
(Also, while it sounds like a bad idea for a spell, that sounds like an awesome idea for a kit. A F/M-like hybrid with full casting and melee progression whose main disadvantage is you lose control whenever an enemy is in sight. Is that kind of "forced script" something one can do via modding?)
It's fairly obvious that the guy who wrote the spell book was a calculus nerd. I remember the long nights doing Tensor transformation for classical mechanics.
It's fairly obvious that the guy who wrote the spell book was a calculus nerd. I remember the long nights doing Tensor transformation for classical mechanics.
Even more of a PITA in relativistic mechanics, IIRC.
Changing TT to not only supress all spell-casting and abilities but to also induce a berzerk status would make it an extremely niche spell. I, for one, would never use it just as I never use Minsc's special ability or the twohanded sword of berzerking. It's just not worth it.
There's actually a priest spell in IWDEE that does this - Animal Rage? Blood Rage? - and it's pretty high-level given how serious the down side is. But it is pretty powerful at the same time, and I did use it a couple times. I recall it being effective for tanking beholders.
Both Animal Rage and Blood Rage could potentially fit the bill. Blood Rage is a level 4 cleric spell, Animal Rage a level 5 druid spell. Both give a strength boost, Blood Rage also grants some handy immunities, but in general its downsides are much more severe. Animal Rage also has the neat benefit of being castable on enemies, which would be really handy if IWD featured as many enemy mages as BG2.
I'd like Berserk a lot more in general if it functioned more like Animal Rage, except without the small chance to start attacking your allies. Basically, you're uncontrollable when an enemy is in sight and totally normal otherwise. It's a serious drawback-- you can't kite, can't disengage or drink potions when your health is low, can't prioritize enemy spellcasters, etc. But it still lets you operate like normal most of the time, and the nice thing about a drawback that severe is it can offset some really cool bonuses and still be balanced.
But yeah, it would have to be party-friendly, because potential friendly fire from a berserking ally is a dealbreaker for me.
Comments
Btw, I consider this fix very welcome.
You have to wait one round to cast Tenser's after casting Spin, meaning you lose one round of the combined effect.
Edit, now that I think of it: TT has a casting time of 6, so if you cast Spin, then get the aura preventing casting for a round, then cast TT with it's 6 sec delay, doesn't that mean you in practice only get 2 rounds of the combined effect from Spin+TT?
You are correct though about the latter comment; if it had worked the other way around, high level bards would probably rush from fight to fight using a combo of chained Spin with TT to get the most out of the combo.
If you don't have strength-boosters (i.e. if you're starting from 16-18 strength), Tenser's is also inferior to Righteous Magic. Something like Boon of Lathander also goes through the same calculus of base APR vs. unbuffed THACO as offensive spin.
If you count Melf's Minute Meteors and Energy Blades as "pure combat enhancements", I'd say both of those trump Tenser's, too. As does Shapechange. And if we're throwing HLAs into the mix, Greater Whirlwind and Hardiness are both worthy contenders.
Anyway, the point of making Offensive Spin work while Tenser's is active isn't that it gets you 2-3 extra rounds of Offensive Spin, it's that it lets you prebuff with Tenser's before combat starts (because I'd rather not combat-cast something with a casting speed of six if I can help it), then engage and pop the shorter-duration Offensive Spin. Plus another one if the first runs out, and one after that if the second runs out and combat is still ongoing.
If this were IWD Tenser's, I could see making it incompatible with everything else. I soloed IWD when it first came out with a Conjurer who basically just cast nothing but Tenser's over the second half of the game, including the final battle.
But BG2 Tenser's? It's just not that amazing of an effect. And besides, my understanding of the spell is "this spell turns you into a fighter". Which is great, but fighters can still trigger innate abilities like Whirlwind and Berserk, right?
Or maybe like the description says, it's supposed to turn you into a berserked fighter. But again, Korgan can still activate Greater Whirlwind while he's mid-berserk. So why can't Haer'Dalis activate Offensive Spin while he's mid-Tenser's?
In pure melee combat I agree Tenser's is not that wonderful a spell. In practice the AC benefit probably disappears as it only takes effect up to AC -10 and other buffs normally mean the HP increase won't be called upon. I do though like the spell against some enemies with special attacks - like dragons - particularly for a bard that doesn't have the best mage summons.
It would make a big difference if the spell gave an APR increase as you suggested in your post. Not only would that make Tenser's significantly more powerful itself, but I could then better understand the argument there would be unintended duplication between Tenser's and spin. However, Tenser's does not provide an APR increase and there is no overlap between its effects and spin. Therefore it comes back to the argument as to whether or not Tenser's should prohibit special abilities. It doesn't stop HLAs, it doesn't stop Bhaal abilities - why should it stop spin?
I also touched on game balance in the sense that Tenser's and spin don't affect the same things (so there's not the same conflict as with Tenser's and haste for instance). Personally I wouldn't be bothered about using Tenser's and spin anyway as I would be happy to combine it with improved haste - but that just suggests to me that allowing spin with Tenser's isn't really an issue with game balance either.
From lore/logic, you could simply argue that Offensive Spin takes too much concentration to also maintain a spell like Tenser's, which from its effect seems to suggest it occupies a lot of mental capacity (hence no other spells). But since that is all entirely fictitious, you could come up with any number of reasons more or less contrived to make it go either way.
In terms of game balance, there are many aspects to consider. Would Tenser+Spin immediately break the game wide open? Probably not. Does it not working in concert create a gaping chasm of difficulty no Blade can overcome? Also very much no. In the end, design decisions have to be made. One of those was limiting what Offensive Spin can stack with. There really isn't a particularly strong argument one way or the other, so you have to settle for weak ones.
Luckily, everyone can mod the game exactly the way they want, so there's your solution right there.
1. it's part of a wider malfunction (can't use hla and other special abilities during tenser's)
2. the rules don't accommodate for the status quo (disabled spells does not mean disabled offensive spin)
to have the status quo not be considered a bug the following would have to be done (which would also make it a kind of a pseudo- status quo):
1. the general bug is fixed, so you can use hlas, kai etc
2. the specific behavior of offensive spin being disabled by tenser's is reintroduced
3. you amend the rules so that they read: spells and offensive spin are disabled
Also, I'm remaining silent on questions of "worthwhile use of developer's time" and speaking only to questions of balance and what "makes sense". Allowing Offensive Spin during Tenser's would be more consistent with expected behavior without upsetting the balance of the game, as the "spirit" of Tenser's is "turns you into a fighter", and fighters are perfectly capable of executing innate abilities.
...
The wizard fights in melee in preference to all other forms of attack, and continues attacking until all opponents are slain, he is killed, the magic is dispelled, or the spell duration expires."
That is the berserk status.
As it stands, it really only seems like it's worth casting on Blades and Swash>Mages (because they can dual-wield and equip speed weapons to solve their APR needs), or on F>M duals (because they naturally get extra APR / grandmastery but can suffer THACO woes in the latter stages of the game).
I would like to point out, though, that the berserk state as @kjeron describes it is different than Minsc's berserk state or the one induced by the cursed sword of berserking, as there's no chance that you'll wind up attacking your allies and it doesn't persist beyond the death of the final enemy.
Instead, it's basically just like setting a super aggressive script on your caster. They're fine to do whatever they want until they see an enemy, at which point they single-mindedly attack it in melee until it's dead, and then they return to normal.
In some ways, that version of Tenser's would actually be a buff, since it would allow spellcasting during its duration provided no enemies were in sight. If you manage to get into two battles during TT's duration, you could feel free to refresh your buffs between them.
(While that version of Tenser's would be better in some ways, it'd be a lot worse in others in that you couldn't pick your targets, so it'd still probably qualify as a nerf to a spell that already isn't all that good.)
(Also, while it sounds like a bad idea for a spell, that sounds like an awesome idea for a kit. A F/M-like hybrid with full casting and melee progression whose main disadvantage is you lose control whenever an enemy is in sight. Is that kind of "forced script" something one can do via modding?)
I'd like Berserk a lot more in general if it functioned more like Animal Rage, except without the small chance to start attacking your allies. Basically, you're uncontrollable when an enemy is in sight and totally normal otherwise. It's a serious drawback-- you can't kite, can't disengage or drink potions when your health is low, can't prioritize enemy spellcasters, etc. But it still lets you operate like normal most of the time, and the nice thing about a drawback that severe is it can offset some really cool bonuses and still be balanced.
But yeah, it would have to be party-friendly, because potential friendly fire from a berserking ally is a dealbreaker for me.