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Attacks per Round Swashbuckler *non issue*

BoasterBoaster Member Posts: 615
edited November 2012 in Fixed
I've noticed that when a Swashbuckler has 2 proficiency points, he never gets the 3/2 Attacks per round. Only has 1 Attack per round.

Post edited by Balquo on
TingelEdving314QuartzGrammarsaladIchigoRXCsunset00
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Comments

  • DazzuDazzu Member Posts: 923
    Warriors only get extra APR from proficiency points. I don't see why this is, as few classes actually get this benefit.

  • BoasterBoaster Member Posts: 615
    My grief here is that it doesn't say "Warriors get an extra ½ attack per round" in the description of proficiencies. And isn't a Swashbuckler the more Warrior-like Thief?

    TorrentKattenQuartzRoller12IchigoRXC
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 6,467
    I don't know about official 2E rules but I agree that attacks should be based on the proficiency points and not on class (or class group I guess "warriors").

    QuartzIchigoRXCsunset00
  • BoasterBoaster Member Posts: 615
    Warriors should get that extra half attack per round every 6th level still. I just think that if the proficiency adds a half attack per round, it should.

    QuartzRad_Bbridgesunset00
  • DazzuDazzu Member Posts: 923
    Warriors should get that extra half attack per round every 6th level still.
    They only get at 7 and 13, not every 6 levels.

    Boasterdomagoj_zgsunset00
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 6,467
    I don't know about official 2E rules but I agree that attacks should be based on the proficiency points and not on class (or class group I guess "warriors").
    To clarify.. The bonuses that Warriors get at 7 and 13 should not be changed. The second proficiency point should get the 3/2 Attacks per round be it warrior or swashbuckler or other class.

    tenasunset00
  • BoasterBoaster Member Posts: 615
    edited June 2012
    Warriors should get that extra half attack per round every 6th level still.
    They only get at 7 and 13, not every 6 levels.
    Then I was clearly mistaken. My bad.

    Though to be fair, level 7 and level 13 are six levels apart.

    Six levels above level 1 (level 7), then six levels above level 7 (level 13).

    Rad_Bbridgesunset00
  • deratiseurderatiseur Member Posts: 68
    I confirm. If a sorcerer (kitted) have grand-mastery in staff, or a thief (kitted) have grand-mastery in bows, he doesn't gain any attack/round. Annoying !

    Bhryaen
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 4,063
    maybe they did that for game balance? with use any item, swashbucklers/ blade can have 4 attacks per round with scralet nintojo +3 and belm +2 and if you give them the mits of extraordinary specialization with a pair of booties of speed, then they get 5 attacks per round, even for shadows of amn purposes, you could dual wield with your swash bucklers and blades (why wouldnt you?) and use belm +2 off hand and still get 3 attacks per round and haste will boost it to 4, so in retrospect i dont think its tooooooooooo much of an issue, but i would agree it was annoying the first time i found that out, but i guess i just learned to cope with it i suppose

  • AndreaColomboAndreaColombo Member Posts: 5,192
    Per P&P, only warriors get that bonus and Swashbucklers count as thieves, so this is really not a bug.

    kiaiwbouvyBhryaenelminster
  • LinkamusLinkamus Member Posts: 219
    edited July 2012
    Current Behavior -

    Putting 2 proficiencies in any given weapon type when using the Swashbuckler kit does not add + 1/2 attack per round like it universally should. I assume this bug is a result of the thief class originally being designed to not be able to specialize in any weapon skill.

    Expected Behavior -

    Becoming proficient in a weapon type should add +1/2 attack per round when wielding that weapon type.


    It has been awhile since I discovered this bug - so if I could get a second pair of eyes to confirm it that'd be awesome.

    Quartz
  • WispWisp Member Posts: 1,102
    Only warrior classes gain a half-APR upon specialisation. Whether it is a bug or by design has been a matter of debate.

  • CheesebellyCheesebelly Member Posts: 1,727
    I think the whole proficiency is a bit upside down. For example, having ***** in a weapon with a fighter won't grant the same bonuses as it is supposed to.
    My guess is that for Thieves, 2 star proficiency was more or less overlooked, therefore why the Swashie doesn't get the expected bonuses. Hopefully it will be fixed, if it is not intended though.

    Note : the stars is not a censoring, it's literally stars XD

  • LinkamusLinkamus Member Posts: 219
    If it's by design, then I think there should be some clarification in the specialization screen. Because if I recall, even when you are allocating proficiency points for a swashbuckler, it still tells you that a second proficiency will add +1/2 attack per round. I always thought this was supposed to be universal. If they don't want swashes to have that extra attack per round, then don't give them a second proficiency, give them another innate class bonus or something.

  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    edited July 2012
    I could swear I've read this one somewhere before.

    Edit: Yep, merged.

  • DKnightDKnight Member Posts: 306
    Maybe they will change it so swashbucklers get that in the enhanced edition.
    What they should be more concerned with, is fixing assassins and bounty hunters usefulness. I find it odd that an assassin is weaker at backstab than a fighter/thief.

  • Daedalus87mDaedalus87m Member Posts: 92
    @AndreaColombo - yes, but that's only because there are no kits in P&P and thus Warrior classes are the only ones who can add 2 proficiency points in a weapon, but because the kits can also allow other classes to put 2 points in a weapon, they should also get the full benefit.

    BoasterKlumpensunset00
  • Daedalus87mDaedalus87m Member Posts: 92
    edited July 2012
    @Wisp - I stand corrected, there is indeed a Swashbuckler kit, but after some research, I found out that there are actually 2 Swashbuckler kits!

    One is as you stated from the Thief's handbook (see http://home.online.no/~rahag/AD&D/Thieves_Handbook.pdf )

    The otherone is from the Fighter's handbook ( http://home.online.no/~rahag/AD&D/Fighter's_Handbook.pdf )


    and another interesting part from the Thief's handbook says, that the Thief version, gets an extra proficiency point he can use for certain weapons, to choose a "weapon of choice", with which he can fight at the same THAC0 level as a Fighter of the same level, but has also to devote half of his proficiency points in that weapon throughout his career, until he has mastered it.


    TLDR: Was probably to hard to implement so they made it that way.

    Post edited by Daedalus87m on
  • AranneasAranneas Member Posts: 282
    Grandmastery being weaker than its state in BG1 or P&P in BG2 is not a bug. It was intentionally toned down during development. I personally don't know what they were hoping to accomplish by doing this but them's the facts. There's all manner of mods that restore it to its original functionality if that's something you're interested in, but I doubt they'll be able to ship a change to it in the base game.

    Proficiency granting additional attacks is, as has been previously mentioned, intended for warriors only in P&P. There's mods for this as well, but it would be a different design direction from the original and one that I doubt they'd be going in.

    DiscoCat
  • CorvinoCorvino Member Posts: 2,269
    @Aranneas Then it's just a matter of ensuring that the ingame description matches the ingame outcome so people don't feel it's unfair when they don't receive and expected benefit.

    Grandmastery is the same. As long as the ingame description is consistent with the result then OK. If you're putting your points in and not getting what you expected, this needs fixin'.

    IchigoRXC
  • AranneasAranneas Member Posts: 282
    Works for me. Nothing wrong with clear and understood mechanics.

  • BoasterBoaster Member Posts: 615
    Corvino said:

    @Aranneas Then it's just a matter of ensuring that the ingame description matches the ingame outcome so people don't feel it's unfair when they don't receive and expected benefit.

    Grandmastery is the same. As long as the ingame description is consistent with the result then OK. If you're putting your points in and not getting what you expected, this needs fixin'.

    The Grandmastery description is really unreliable. All of them are really. I keep expecting that extra half attack per round, but it never materializes.

  • BoasterBoaster Member Posts: 615
    maybe they did that for game balance? with use any item, swashbucklers/ blade can have 4 attacks per round with scralet nintojo +3 and belm +2 and if you give them the mits of extraordinary specialization with a pair of booties of speed, then they get 5 attacks per round, even for shadows of amn purposes, you could dual wield with your swash bucklers and blades (why wouldnt you?) and use belm +2 off hand and still get 3 attacks per round and haste will boost it to 4, so in retrospect i dont think its tooooooooooo much of an issue, but i would agree it was annoying the first time i found that out, but i guess i just learned to cope with it i suppose
    @sarevok57
    Are weapons designed around proficiencies or are proficiencies designed around weapons?

    I think the proficiencies should be fixed first and the weapons modified afterward. That or the EE-team may just leave the items. Or that might not even correct either side: weapons or proficiencies.

  • AranneasAranneas Member Posts: 282
    @Boaster honestly I think the answer was 'neither' in the time of bg/bg2 :D

    it seems like they mostly just went 'these are the weapon types that exist in p&p, let's code them up' and then 'ooh I have this cool idea lets make it an "X"' a bunch of times. not that many are really tied to weapon type at all. there definitely wasn't much of an effort to balance proficiencies against each other until TOB

  • GafanGafan Member Posts: 16
    I don't have the knowledge to say whether the mechanics are right or wrong, but it is not acceptable to have a mismatch between the mechanics and the descriptions. That was one of the most frustrating problems with BG2 (the most obvious example being the Shapeshifter kit - what a shambles!) and really discouraged people from exploring all of the classes. If they don't work as advertised then you have no idea what you are getting into.

    tl;dr: if the mechanics aren't going to change at least make the descriptions accurate.

  • EdvinEdvin Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 3,017
    Attacks per round on Swashbuckler was always bugged.
    He never get his bonus for weapon specialization, that is common knowledge.
    So he need to be fixed. Nothing more to say about this.

    RAM021
  • AranneasAranneas Member Posts: 282
    Edvin said:

    Attacks per round on Swashbuckler was always bugged.
    He never get his bonus for weapon specialization, that is common knowledge.
    So he need to be fixed. Nothing more to say about this.

    ._.

    Have you read the thread? It wasn't a bug. It was a design decision. I don't know how much clearer I can make this.

  • BhryaenBhryaen Member Posts: 2,874
    Although this isn't a bug, there is an issue worth addressing that is not merely a feature request because there's a lack of clarity in the rules description. Say you're a new player. You start the game as a mage. You get to the Proficiency Slots section of the Character Generation process and end up putting one pip in Dagger. Up pops the description of a dagger and an explanation of proficiencies that includes mention of getting an extra +1/2 attack with Specialization, +1/2 more with Mastery, +1/2 more with High Mastery, etc... So you say, "What?? Extra attacks? Then I'll try Swashbuckler and get me two pips in katana!" But you then enter the game with your Swashbuckler and, well, no extra attack. "I demand a refund!" lol... Well, anyway, it's something to be addressed...

    sunset00RAM021
  • BoasterBoaster Member Posts: 615
    The description IS very misleading. However... since non-Fighters cannot get specialization in weapons, why not just make it so any class will get ATP benefits from specialization to mastery?

    EdvinRAM021
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