The description IS very misleading. However... since non-Fighters cannot get specialization in weapons, why not just make it so any class will get ATP benefits from specialization to mastery?
Well, the thing is : ADD2 is not the most balanced system ever created. Some class are totally broken, some other are totally awesome. That's part of the fun. I love the dusty system of ADD2 - there's ton of unlogical and fantastic rules that doesn't make any sense as a game designer PoV but that creates a sense of "magic". When you play DD3 you feel like you are in some sort of mathematic bullsh*t and that's boring after 15 seconds.
Well, the thing is : ADD2 is not the most balanced system ever created. Some class are totally broken, some other are totally awesome. That's part of the fun. I love the dusty system of ADD2 - there's ton of unlogical and fantastic rules that doesn't make any sense as a game designer PoV but that creates a sense of "magic". When you play DD3 you feel like you are in some sort of mathematic bullsh*t and that's boring after 15 seconds.
honestly 3e had more imba than AD&D ever did by the end of its run they didn't go for actively balancing the classes against each other. instead they decided to make it possible for everyone to at least feel like they were contributing. I think it's a step forward from 2e in this aspect, where if you made a bard you did it solely for roleplaying reasons and that was that
As I was asked to check the AD&D Player's Handbook, I'll report here that it only mentions extra APR for Fighters (not even Warrior type characters). @Wisp was spot on with his assessment of the Shwashbuckler based on PnP in the previous page of this thread.
I still think it is a bug - being able to specialize in weapons is a *perk* for swashbucklers, regardless that it is a thief kit. You should get the + 1/2 attack per round.
It's the same as an archer being able to put 5 pips into ranged weapons. It's a ranger kit, and shouldn't be able to get mastery in a weapon type, but that is a perk of being an archer.
Actually, as per @Wisp's post it is probably not a perk for Swashbucklers to specialize in weapons. You can say you would like them to be able to specialize and get the full benefits there from regardless of whether it is P&P accurate, and that would be a different argument. As far as the rules go, however, Swashbucklers shouldn't probably be allowed to even specialize in the first place.
If so, I really think instead of giving them "specialization", to keep it from being confusing, they should just straight up give swashes +2 dmg and +1 thaco with any useable weapon as a class perk.
Actually, as per @Wisp's post it is probably not a perk for Swashbucklers to specialize in weapons. You can say you would like them to be able to specialize and get the full benefits there from regardless of whether it is P&P accurate, and that would be a different argument. As far as the rules go, however, Swashbucklers shouldn't probably be allowed to even specialize in the first place.
And Kensais shouldn't be allowed to wield anything other than swords. So...?
And Kensais shouldn't be allowed to wield anything other than swords. So...?
I really like way how you think.
btw:
@AndreaColombo - Swashbuckler is ONLY ONE profession from BG who is not regular fighter and can place second point to weapons specialization. Only combat professions ( and him ) can do that.
It* should be done, in my humble opinion. It will make the class more attractive. Otherwise the proficiency bonus into specialization isn't worth losing the backstab.
Although I like the idea of making APR part of specialization, both PnP and the game itself consistently follow the "fighters only" rule for APR increases, so the best I can suggest in this regard is to make the specialization description reflect the fighter APR.
I like swashbucklers for keeping normal thief ability gains while getting little advantages, so I don't really need APR gains, but still...
Although I like the idea of making APR part of specialization, both PnP and the game itself consistently follow the "fighters only" rule for APR increases, so the best I can suggest in this regard is to make the specialization description reflect the fighter APR.
I like swashbucklers for keeping normal thief ability gains while getting little advantages, so I don't really need APR gains, but still...
This discussion is neverending...
Can you just switch Swashbuckler main profession ? Fighter with thief ability instead thief with fighter ability.
Then everything will by according to rules, swashbuckler get his +1/2 atack and everyone will by happy.
It* should be done, in my humble opinion. It will make the class more attractive. Otherwise the proficiency bonus into specialization isn't worth losing the backstab.
I disagree about losing backstab not being worth it, even without the 1/2 attack per round, a swashbuckler is still so awesome. They can max out their AC with use any item (stacked with +1 ac every 5 levels), they get whirlwind (if I recall), and get +1 dmg and thaco every 5 levels. They get to keep their thieving skills, and still get spiked trap. By far my favorite thief kit even without the 1/2 attack.
I agree they should add the 1/2 attack per round though. Either that or make it less confusing.
I always thought this was a bug, but I'm having my doubts now...here's why: Take a look at WSPATCK.2DA. This file is the source of our debate and is a wierd, confusing concatenation of weap prof bonuses AND warriors class bonuses of half APR at lvl 7 and 13.
Now nobody's claiming that a swashbuckler should recieve those extra bonuses at lvls 7 and 13, just that specialisation gives a half APR regardless of class. But it's the progression of the warrior bonuses that's the giveaway: if these are truly independant of the specialisation bonus (as is inferred in the bug report) then their progression should be each 7 levels, that is levels 7 and 14. This is not the case. What we actually see is a bonus at level 1(for specialisation), then each 6 levels after that, level 7 and level 13. So it would in fact seem intended for warriors only to recieve that .5 APR for specialisation.
If you want to argue for Swashies to get that bonus regardless, go right ahead, but I think it is fairly certainly not a bug.
This really should be addressed. They should either keep it as is and update the description of proficiencies, "warriors get an extra 1/2 attack per round" or they should, I don't know, make the Swashbuckler worth a damn.
The Swashbucklers are already "worth a damn". Of the 4 basic Thief kits they're the best frontline fighter.
Well, I'm glad you have managed to make use of them then. I tend to have more success with a thief being a "frontline fighter" when I backstab and instantly kill one of the enemies before having to face the rest head-on, but that's me.
(Looking back at this post, sorry that this sounds SUPER sarcastic, it's not I swear. )
I'd rather have Backstab X5 than an Specialization, an extra AC/damage/thac0 here and there. If he actually got the attacks per round, then that might offset the backstab loss.
I'd rather have Backstab X5 than an Specialization, an extra AC/damage/thac0 here and there.
Well, that's a reason to use the basic Thief then.
The Swashbuckler also has another advantage though, he can put three ranks in two weapon fighting, further improving his melee abilities when compared to the other Thief kits.
I'd rather have Backstab X5 than an Specialization, an extra AC/damage/thac0 here and there.
Well, that's a reason to use the basic Thief then.
The Swashbuckler also has another advantage though, he can put three ranks in two weapon fighting, further improving his melee abilities when compared to the other Thief kits.
Still that's a disadvantage over losing backstab, because it only takes one Backstab at X5 to do all the damage necessary.
Comments
they didn't go for actively balancing the classes against each other. instead they decided to make it possible for everyone to at least feel like they were contributing. I think it's a step forward from 2e in this aspect, where if you made a bard you did it solely for roleplaying reasons and that was that
It's the same as an archer being able to put 5 pips into ranged weapons. It's a ranger kit, and shouldn't be able to get mastery in a weapon type, but that is a perk of being an archer.
btw:
@AndreaColombo - Swashbuckler is ONLY ONE profession from BG who is not regular fighter and can place second point to weapons specialization. Only combat professions ( and him ) can do that.
Is really that hard give him +1/2 attack ?
Hard? Probably not. But its not a question of it being hard or not, its a question of should it be done.
I like swashbucklers for keeping normal thief ability gains while getting little advantages, so I don't really need APR gains, but still...
Can you just switch Swashbuckler main profession ?
Fighter with thief ability instead thief with fighter ability.
Then everything will by according to rules, swashbuckler get his +1/2 atack and everyone will by happy.
I agree they should add the 1/2 attack per round though. Either that or make it less confusing.
If he's supposed to be a Thief who is more Warrior-like, then it makes sense to just throw the class a bone and give him the extra ½ attack per round.
Take a look at WSPATCK.2DA. This file is the source of our debate and is a wierd, confusing concatenation of weap prof bonuses AND warriors class bonuses of half APR at lvl 7 and 13.
Now nobody's claiming that a swashbuckler should recieve those extra bonuses at lvls 7 and 13, just that specialisation gives a half APR regardless of class. But it's the progression of the warrior bonuses that's the giveaway: if these are truly independant of the specialisation bonus (as is inferred in the bug report) then their progression should be each 7 levels, that is levels 7 and 14. This is not the case. What we actually see is a bonus at level 1(for specialisation), then each 6 levels after that, level 7 and level 13. So it would in fact seem intended for warriors only to recieve that .5 APR for specialisation.
If you want to argue for Swashies to get that bonus regardless, go right ahead, but I think it is fairly certainly not a bug.
(Looking back at this post, sorry that this sounds SUPER sarcastic, it's not I swear.
The Swashbuckler also has another advantage though, he can put three ranks in two weapon fighting, further improving his melee abilities when compared to the other Thief kits.