Even with the restrictions of the contract, I don't understand why they didn't allow an alternate path to complete the new content on top of the NPC linked path. Surely they only needed to link the new quests/areas to the NPCs initially, to get the player from Athkatla to a new area.
Some of the new NPCs have quests that are tightly linked like Hexxat being the only one to get you to the tombs, but with Neera and Rasaad you can ditch them after they open their new areas and then complete some of the quests. So to me that seems like tight linking all the way through of the new areas to the NPCs was more of a design decision than a contractual obligation. It's certainly less work mapping out a linear quest path than it is to add options of how to complete it.
The way AndreaColombo puts it in the List of Things That Can't Be Done thread makes it sound like the contract forced them to built the new content as "expansions" which exist outside of the original content (like how Ulgoth's Beard is largely removed from the main content of BG1 vanilla). So they just had to make sure anything new didn't overlap with the existing areas and NPCs (although aspects of Dorn's quests do like assassinating a priest of Lathander in the Lathander Temple kind do). So I see why they had to use NPCs stationed at Athkatla and Trademeet to open up the new areas, but I don't see why they needed the NPCs to babysit Charname through the new areas. To me I can't understsand the jump in logic there.
There might have been a part of the contract that states that all new content must have a NPC attached to it at all times but I doubt it.
I gotta say that I struggle with working out why any party would travel with Hexxat. Obviously it's pretty hard to justify any of the good characters working with her, but even evil characters should be pretty wary. After all, she's the sort of creature that considers all of you to be food. Tell me Edwin (or Vicky, or Korgan), how comfortable are you having a vampire watching over you when you sleep?
Now you're camping out somewhere like the hell-plane thing outside the planar sphere where there's absolutely nobody around that she can hunt. Still comfortable? Nah, didn't think so.
Plus I was mildly offended that my entire party apparently stood around and did nothing while one of my party members begged for her life then got eaten. Bad form.
Yes, this whole thing was dont in a very childlike manner indeed. "Want new content? Then you HAVE to take along our new NPC's!"
Reminds me of all those fan-made mod NPC's out there with their various banters seemingly following the mantra of "Don't like my banter? Then no banter for you!" These modders are obviously invested in their characters and often don't allow them to be mocked or otherwise trifled with. Which makes the NPC come off as douchy and ruins immersion. I wish people would realise this.
If anyone likes mods and such, look into the Ninde mod. Not so much for the storyline/romance, perhaps, but certainly in terms of writing. Ninde can be a little over the top herself, and a touch overdone in certain places, but the available responses range from warm to absolutely ridiculing her. Does she follow the "Don't like my banter, then no banter for you" schtick? No. She responds accordingly. That mod is A+ in terms of writing.
Which is more than I can say for the EE NPC's.
Why is this even called Enhanced Edition?
Should be Baldur's Gate: NPC Edition*
* (small print: where only our NPC's are worthwhile.)
Calm down. I'm not going to like your NPC's if they are forced on me. The original cast might be a little "unique," themselves, but at least they were never in your face about it. You told them to get lost, they got lost. Unlike these new ones that try to convince you to take them if you reject them.
"Don't like our NPC's? WELL THEN, NO NEW CONTENT FOR YOU!" - Beamdog.
I love her... bag of holding! While I am underwhelmed so far (still in SoA) she will play an integral part of all my future walkthroughs and donate her bag to the good of the party before being parked at the Copper Coronet for the rest of her undead life.
I don't think I will ever take Dorn along again (too stupid evil) or Neera (hate wildmages). Maybe Rasaad who had the best story for me so far. But Hexxat? Every time baby I will check out your assets and forget to check them in again!
I gotta say that I struggle with working out why any party would travel with Hexxat.
Plus I was mildly offended that my entire party apparently stood around and did nothing while one of my party members begged for her life then got eaten. Bad form.
Yeah, I found her whole introduction a bit contrived. I wasn't exactly fond of Clara what with her terrible voice, but after she gets eaten I see no reason why my party wouldn't immediately give Hexxat a faceful of Azuredge like we did to Dragomir, much less let her into the group. Clara's introduction is notably unhelpful too, because the only information she provides to entice you is that the tomb is full of treasure, a hook geared towards the treasure-huntin' monster-bashin' type, not vampire loving weirdos. Not the brightest idea on Hexxat's part, because that's exactly the kind of adventurer who would stake her immediately for exp and carry on looking for loot.
I also hate all the responses with Clara. All of the sudden my 19 intelligence, 19 charisma Mage can say is "uhh, I can bring you to the tomb. You don't seem creepy and mind controlled at all." or "i'll buy you a drink".
Yeah, lets totally follow a mind controlled creep into a dark tomb, because we all know the words of crazy people offering "treasure" are extremely trustworthy.
Basically the only way to get Hexxat is by being a moron.
I also hate all the responses with Clara. All of the sudden my 19 intelligence, 19 charisma Mage can say is "uhh, I can bring you to the tomb. You don't seem creepy and mind controlled at all." or "i'll buy you a drink".
Yeah, lets totally follow a mind controlled creep into a dark tomb, because we all know the words of crazy people offering "treasure" are extremely trustworthy.
Basically the only way to get Hexxat is by being a moron.
personaly I found it painful when my paladin sat there and watched her be murdered, a major problem with hexxat is that only one type of player character was considered when writing her imo, if ur anything but stupid evil the whole plotline just falls apart
Well, she's evil so if you're a paladin you're probably not going to take her anyways. My concern is that even if you are evil you have to act kinda stupid to recruit her.
Well, she's evil so if you're a paladin you're probably not going to take her anyways. My concern is that even if you are evil you have to act kinda stupid to recruit her.
Exactly! Plus I'm not so sure that most evil NPCs would appreciate being looked at as food very much. If Korgan and Edwin have trouble getting along, why in the world would they be okay traveling with a vampire who may want to eat them?
For that matter, why would Edwin (who wants power, comfort and luxury), Korgan (who wants easy money and fun killing, and gets along well with the most heroic NPCs in the game) and especially Viconia (who wants to live on the surface unmolested) want to travel with a stupid-evil half-orc Blackguard who brags about killing women and children and clearly brings down the wrath of some of the most powerful authorities in the world? I'm sure they just love all the added difficulty and complication to their lives.
Clara: I've revived you as promised, master! Please let me go... Hexxat: lol, no Hexxat: sucker. Hexxat: *chomp chomp slurp* Hexxat: So can I join your party? Charname: You gotta be kidding me... also you have a bit of Clara on your, uh, everything
Gamemaster: Guys, please! I want you to roleplay this. Remember you've never met this guy before, the last guys you met tried to kill you, and you're standing in the ruins of an evil, cursed castle. Just act appropriately.
Magellan: Hello, I'm Magellan, a traveling mage. I notice your group has no wizard.
Rogar: You seem trustworthy. Would you care to join us in our noble quest?
Exactly! Plus I'm not so sure that most evil NPCs would appreciate being looked at as food very much. If Korgan and Edwin have trouble getting along, why in the world would they be okay traveling with a vampire who may want to eat them?
Korgan and Edwin don't get along for specific reasons, though: Korgan respects physical strength (which is why he torments Aerie but not Imoen, who talks back to him, and has no conflict with Keldorn) and he would see Edwin as a stereotypical Squishy Wizard. Meanwhile, Edwin sees Korgan as a dumb brute (and, y'know, he's not exactly wrong).
Why would either of them tolerate Hexxat? Because they're leches (Edwin constantly strikes out with Viconia, and Korgan with Mazzy) and they have a grudging respect for anyone who can carry their own weight (which Hexxat certainly can).
For that matter, why would Edwin (who wants power, comfort and luxury), Korgan (who wants easy money and fun killing, and gets along well with the most heroic NPCs in the game) and especially Viconia (who wants to live on the surface unmolested) want to travel with a stupid-evil half-orc Blackguard who brags about killing women and children and clearly brings down the wrath of some of the most powerful authorities in the world? I'm sure they just love all the added difficulty and complication to their lives.
That's more of a Chaotic Neutral/Good perspective, IMO. I mean, don't forget that each of these characters throw their lot in with a Bhaalspawn, which is hardly a recipe for easy and convenient living. If the rationale behind an Evil party is to assemble the toughest, most powerful fighting force (which is certainly used as the justification for recruiting Sarevok, someone you have absolutely no reason to trust), then blackguards and vampire thieves are exactly the sort of muscle that team would be looking for. (Dorn, Sarevok and Korgan have an amazing conversation in ToB about sharing war stories and drinking the next tavern dry, which is exactly the sort of thing you'd expect from the top three warriors in the game.)
Actually, Sarevok isn't recruited solely for his power. Most of his power is gone upon resurrection. He is recruited as much for his knowledge of the prophecies surrounding the Bhaalspawn as he is for his remaining skill.
Furthermore, he doesn't complicate things within the party by joining. He can be placed under a geas, so he is literally a command-obeying soldier. Korgan has one quest that you do for him, after that, he is yours. He is in it for the bloodshed and treasure.
Dorn, on the other hand, is in it because he respects your power. However, your cause is secondary to serving his patron. At any point, if his patron commanded him to kill you, he'd do it or die trying. Despite the fact that he's seen you at your best, and knows you are more powerful than he is. Stupid evil at its finest. He is as much a liability as an asset in this regard because he can turn on you at any given moment.
Hexxat is the same. As someone else pointed above, what if you're trapped elsewhere? There are times where you are stuck in Spellhold or some other-planar dimension. Watcher's Keep. Etc. In these cases, she becomes a liability because she cannot find sustenance. Even ignoring these, she's kind of a liability anyway. She needs to hunt. This could potentially create problems for the party by them being hunted by the law for killing citizens, thus, adversely affecting any quests that they are on. Hard to do anything as an outlaw. All of this seems to be completely ignored by everyone, of course, because it wouldn't be a viable idea if it wasn't.
Actually, Sarevok isn't recruited solely for his power. Most of his power is gone upon resurrection. He is recruited as much for his knowledge of the prophecies surrounding the Bhaalspawn as he is for his remaining skill.
True, but the fact that he's one of the best Fighters in the game certainly factors into whether or not players actually want to keep him in the party.
Furthermore, he doesn't complicate things within the party by joining. He can be placed under a geas, so he is literally a command-obeying soldier.
Let's set aside that most players already know the geas will backfire - even from a pure RP perspective, it's not mandatory. You can force him to obey you, but you also have the option to just take him along anyway.
Korgan has one quest that you do for him, after that, he is yours. He is in it for the bloodshed and treasure.
Sure, and Edwin wants the Nether Scroll, and Viconia never asks you for anything at all. Some characters have longer personal quests than others (Jaheira comes to mind), some don't have personal quests at all.
Dorn, on the other hand, is in it because he respects your power. However, your cause is secondary to serving his patron. At any point, if his patron commanded him to kill you, he'd do it or die trying. Despite the fact that he's seen you at your best, and knows you are more powerful than he is. Stupid evil at its finest. He is as much a liability as an asset in this regard because he can turn on you at any given moment.
Nope. Because blackguards must obey the commands of their patrons, whatever those commands may be. It doesn't matter that Dorn has seen your power and knows he can't defeat you - he can't refuse a direct order from Ur-Gothoz. That's the choice given to the player at the end of the Gorge quest: you either gain Dorn's total loyalty at the expense of his powers, or take a chance that Ur-Gothoz is content to leave you be/that Azothet has no interest in harming you.
Hexxat is the same. As someone else pointed above, what if you're trapped elsewhere? There are times where you are stuck in Spellhold or some other-planar dimension. Watcher's Keep. Etc. In these cases, she becomes a liability because she cannot find sustenance. Even ignoring these, she's kind of a liability anyway. She needs to hunt. This could potentially create problems for the party by them being hunted by the law for killing citizens, thus, adversely affecting any quests that they are on. Hard to do anything as an outlaw. All of this seems to be completely ignored by everyone, of course, because it wouldn't be a viable idea if it wasn't.
I don't know the specifics of vampire lore in D&D (nor, for that matter, am I entirely convinced that the game has to be exact in its reproduction of that lore), but again, you're talking about RP justifications here, not inherent flaws in the character. Hexxat isn't Valen - she doesn't impose her needs on the player any more than most other characters do, and evil Bhaalspawns can afford her the same leeway they give Edwin to study Netherese magic. As far as you know, that Scroll will allow him to become a lich; how do you know he won't turn on you (especially when he's all too willing to turn on his fellow Red Wizards)? How do you know having a lich in the party won't cause even more trouble? How do you know Viconia won't jump ship the first time you stumble onto a drow city? You take these chances because, from your POV, the risk is worth the raw power these people are willing to contribute to your cause.
Erm.. Why will the geas backfire? It doesn't. From both RP and game perspectives, tying Sarevok to a geas is a safe method. We have seen the power of geases from previous examples, most notably, Yoshimo.
As for Dorn, you can't have it both ways. You claim that evil parties are simply after power - Thus, him being stripped of power limits his usefulness. He becomes worse than a generic fighter, and there is every reason for an evil party to ditch the neutered Dorn. Dorn with power is an unpredictable Dorn, one that could turn on you at any second if the patron commands it. Again, limiting his usefulness. So either he is powerful and unpredictable, or less-than-powerful and thus not worth it from the evil point of view that is after power, as you claim.
Lastly, your Edwin argument is full of ifs. We could speculate about ifs all day long. Any party member COULD do any number of irrational things at any time (some higher than others, such as Dorn for reasons mentioned above). Let's not go into "ifs."
Hexxat has nothing to do with "ifs." We have actual evidence for the dangers of having a vampire around. A vampire MUST feed. We saw what she did upon meeting her. We also have it from the proverbial horse's mouth - she tells you there is nothing she won't do to survive. Nothing. That is a worrying claim, because you could be her next meal if there is no other option.
So Edwin COULD become a lich. Viconia COULD betray you at the Drow city (though you don't even know you are going to one upon meeting her.) Imoen COULD give into her taint and turn Chaotic Evil. In the world of "ifs" there are endless possibilities and it is pointless discussing them. Claiming these wild theories is really not the same thing as working with solid, factual evidence: Hexxat is a vampire, and as a vampire, she is subject to the aforementioned behaviour, which makes her a very risky and undesirable companion.
Well, she's evil so if you're a paladin you're probably not going to take her anyways. My concern is that even if you are evil you have to act kinda stupid to recruit her.
oh of course I agree it was just an example of how it feels like other characters just weren't really taken into account when they implemented her. To me It just feels like if your anything but the character they had in mind(stupid evil) Hexxat just doesn't really work. I know when I finally play through with my evil assassin hes going to do something horrible to Hexxat she may share an alignment but he's not stupid
Erm.. Why will the geas backfire? It doesn't. From both RP and game perspectives, tying Sarevok to a geas is a safe method. We have seen the power of geases from previous examples, most notably, Yoshimo.
An error on my part - I was thinking of the Ascension scenario where Amelyssan breaks the geas and causes Sarevok to turn against you.
As for Dorn, you can't have it both ways. You claim that evil parties are simply after power - Thus, him being stripped of power limits his usefulness. He becomes worse than a generic fighter, and there is every reason for an evil party to ditch the neutered Dorn.
The flaw in this argument is the same as it's always been: even fallen, Dorn is still useful as a warrior. It's his higher base Strength versus Sarevok's Grandmastery, but quite frankly, you'd be better served taking both of them and dumping Korgan instead.
Lastly, your Edwin argument is full of ifs. We could speculate about ifs all day long. Any party member COULD do any number of irrational things at any time (some higher than others, such as Dorn for reasons mentioned above). Let's not go into "ifs."
As you said, you can't have it both ways. If you're going to speculate on all the myriad things Hexxat might do because she's a vampire (never mind that these things never actually happen in-game), you can't then dismiss similar concerns that would apply to the other Evil characters.
As you said, you can't have it both ways. If you're going to speculate on all the myriad things Hexxat might do because she's a vampire (never mind that these things never actually happen in-game), you can't then dismiss similar concerns that would apply to the other Evil characters.
I don't fathom how you are not understanding this. I'll put it another way.
Being friends with a known serial killer is much riskier than being friends with a person that has a temper problem.
Clue: In this example, Hexxat would be the serial killer.
But...Hexxat never turns on your party. So she's a potential risk, just like Sarevok etc. Because she might attack you, but never actually does. Maybe she's a serial killer, but she's one you can aim at other people.
Another way to look at it from an evil Bhaalspawn's perspective might be 'she's just a vampire, how many dozen of those have I killed anyway? Threat level - minimal. Let's bring her along and see if she works out; if she doesn't, we'll have Stake Tartar for dinner.'
Just my thoughts, and I'm not trying to persuade anybody - just giving my perspective.
I don't fathom how you are not understanding this. I'll put it another way.
Being friends with a known serial killer is much riskier than being friends with a person that has a temper problem.
Clue: In this example, Hexxat would be the serial killer.
I understand you perfectly well, you're just wrong about this.
Viconia is a priestess of Shar; Edwin was banished from his own order and is researching very dangerous magic for his own sake, not yours; Korgan is a mercenary with no particular code of ethics or loyalty. None of them are inherently trustworthy, but you take their loyalty as a given because you already know they never betray you.
What you don't get is that the same logic applies to Dorn and Hexxat. You're basing your entire argument on all the things these characters could potentially do because of their natures, but in reality, these things don't happen. You take the same leap of faith with them that you do with the Red Wizard and the drow, and the results are the same.
The flaw in this argument is the same as it's always been: even fallen, Dorn is still useful as a warrior. It's his higher base Strength versus Sarevok's Grandmastery, but quite frankly, you'd be better served taking both of them and dumping Korgan instead.
I forgot to also address this. No way any sane player would dump Korgan for Dorn. ESPECIALLY not a neutered Dorn. As a Berseker, Korgan has many advantages (a primary one being immunity to freaking imprisonment during his berserk state.) He's also a Dwarf, getting all the shorty bonuses. Not to mention higher constitution. The guy can just plain take a hit and dish it out well enough, too. Higher base strength? Do you realise how many strength-altering items are in the game? And even if there weren't, I still wouldn't give Korgan up for Dorn for one strength point difference. Not in a million years.
Anyway, back onto the main point. No, you don't get it, and I most certainly am not wrong about this. Yes, there are all sorts of characters with shady morals or backstories. Everyone's an inherent risk, I have addressed this already. It has nothing to do with my knowledge of the game - if it did, I wouldn't even be speaking about this because I already know Hexxat doesn't betray you. We all know this, so we are discussing things from an RP/story point of view.
Hexxat is a VAMPIRE. As a vampire, (even if she wasn't evil, probably impossible) she is a HUGE risk. Vampires need to feed. She has also stated that she will do anything to survive, and killed a party member of yours in front of you.
She *needs* to kill people to actually just live. No one else has that particular problem. This could draw the eye of the authorities upon you, making doing anything extremely difficult. Life as an outlaw is hard enough, let alone if you're a Bhaalspawn on top of it.
Or if you are in a place where she cannot feed, that is straight away a huge risk for anyone around (like party members). Unlike the others, she actually *needs* to betray you in order to survive, the others MIGHT betray you if a certain situation (profit, most likely) called for it. But that's a world of "ifs", whereas Hexxat's world is one of "woulds."
That is the difference. If you don't understand this simple concept, I don't see any further reason in talking to you.
@shawne makes a couple convincing points, and I agree that Korgan is the most understandable when it comes to Dorn (but not Hexxat)
However: you say that Edwin pursues power (he also likes luxury and wealth, as MaeVar told us and he himself has stated many times..."if it were not for the gobs of magic and wealth that seem to fall into your lap"). Accompanying a Bhaalspawn certainly brings that. He or she is a powerful ally that accumulates wealth at a rapid pace. However, allying with a vampire that NEEDS your help does not bring the same thing to the table, and is not as valuable an ally. Considering the powers that will come against you if you have her, she is by FAR more of a liability for Edwin. Dorn is the same. I doubt that Edwin thinks an insane bloodthirsty unthinking brute would be a good ally. I can't imagine him doing anything but dismissing him as a simple simian who does nothing but bring headaches and risk to the Red Wizard's quest for money and power.
Viconia also seems to want nothing but to travel the surface unmolested. She HATES any risks judging from her banters, and appreciates low-key lifestyle choices that still bring power. She travels with charname for two or three reasons: a. he and his allies have the power to protect her from aggressive surfacers b. since he finds acceptance as a Bhaalspawn, she can also be tolerated (as in not being killed on sight) as a surface Drow c. If they have a romance I can't see how Hexxat brings any of that for her. Especially if she just joined your party after almost getting burned at the stake. Why would she want to invite more scrutiny? To "help" a vampire out of the goodness of her heart? Come on. Dorn is even worse! Not only does he bring instability, but he makes it harder for her to travel.
Korgan and Dorn are fine, in my opinion. However, it is clear that Hexxat disturbs him (judging from some poorly connived dialogue in the game). Still... he could destroy her easily in reality. I don't see why he would put up with her and her problems. He doesn't like helping anyone out of the goodness of his heart, other than for the occasional excitement. Still, of the three original Evil Bioware NPCs, he seems to be the most likely to get along with the two new characters.
But...Hexxat never turns on your party. So she's a potential risk, just like Sarevok etc. Because she might attack you, but never actually does. Maybe she's a serial killer, but she's one you can aim at other people.
That is metagaming to a very, very, very large extent
However: you say that Edwin pursues power (he also likes luxury and wealth, as MaeVar told us and he himself has stated many times..."if it were not for the gobs of magic and wealth that seem to fall into your lap"). Accompanying a Bhaalspawn certainly brings that. He or she is a powerful ally that accumulates wealth at a rapid pace. However, allying with a vampire that NEEDS your help does not bring the same thing to the table, and is not as valuable an ally.
That would be a rather hypocritical stance for Edwin to take, given that he himself needs the Bhaalspawn's help in retrieving the Nether Scroll, evading the Red Wizard sent to kill him, and dispatching Dynaheir in the first game. (And, really, more than half the NPCs "need" the Bhaalspawn to do something for them that they can't do themselves - that's the whole point of the personal quests.)
Considering the powers that will come against you if you have her, she is by FAR more of a liability for Edwin. Dorn is the same. I doubt that Edwin thinks an insane bloodthirsty unthinking brute would be a good ally. I can't imagine him doing anything but dismissing him as a simple simian who does nothing but bring headaches and risk to the Red Wizard's quest for money and power.
Edwin dismisses everyone as intellectual inferiors, but recall your first encounter with him in Nashkel: he thinks you're an idiot, but he gets you to do a job for him anyway. As far as Edwin is concerned, even idiots have their uses, and he'd rather have Dorn as a walking meat shield (preferably standing between Edwin and an enemy's blade).
Viconia also seems to want nothing but to travel the surface unmolested. She HATES any risks judging from her banters, and appreciates low-key lifestyle choices that still bring power. She travels with charname for two or three reasons: a. he and his allies have the power to protect her from aggressive surfacers b. since he finds acceptance as a Bhaalspawn, she can also be tolerated (as in not being killed on sight) as a surface Drow c. If they have a romance
Mechanically, this is absolutely true: she makes no demands on the player whatsoever, not even in Ust Natha. But if you're taking the RP approach (as you advocated), you don't know that when you recruit her. What you do know is that she worships Shar - who may not be as outright horrible as Lolth insofar as the drow specifically are concerned, but she's not exactly Eilistraee either. And Sharrans aren't known for their loyalty or code of honor.
I can't see how Hexxat brings any of that for her. Especially if she just joined your party after almost getting burned at the stake. Why would she want to invite more scrutiny? To "help" a vampire out of the goodness of her heart? Come on. Dorn is even worse! Not only does he bring instability, but he makes it harder for her to travel.
See, this goes back to the same fundamental mistake the OP makes: you're making assumptions based on speculation that you're applying only to the new characters. But if you really want to take metagaming and player knowledge out of the equation, you have to acknowledge that everything you say about Dorn here applies just as equally to Korgan, who is neither subtle nor stable, draws a lot of attention to himself, and would certainly be viewed as a disruptive element if Viconia were inclined to think that way. You don't consider this because Viconia, Korgan and Edwin are 15-year-old characters and you already know what they will or won't do during a playthrough; but that's still player knowledge. If you were to reduce every character to the basic components, as you do Dorn and Hexxat, you'd have no reason to ever trust a Sharran drow or a scheming Red Wizard or a hyperviolent dwarven berserker.
The bottom line is that barring specific incompatibilities (Keldorn and Anomen shouldn't be okay with a vampire in the group; Viconia shouldn't tolerate the presence of a Selunite monk actively attacking her goddess' followers; Edwin and Minsc have a history), the NPCs themselves have no say in the Bhaalspawn's choice of companions. They may have their own motivations for following you, but you're never given any reason to think any Evil characters - original or EE - are inherently less trustworthy than any other potential party member.
If you were to describe the Evil NPCs to a person who had never played either of the BG games, "Edwin the Red Wizard, who joins you after betraying his employer" doesn't sound any more loyal or trustworthy than "Dorn the blackguard, who takes orders from a demon".
I feel now a bit avenged. The first time i speak bad of Hexxat NPC, some people (not many) flamed me.
I raise some points that i saw here, as:
A vampire with no interaction in Bodhi's lair.
Do everything to survive and become a pool of charity, look that i didn't even played her to the end, i disliked her so much, that togheter with my fallen blackguard Dorn (that spoiled all the fun of playing dorn) i abandoned my evil playthrough after killing Grommir in ToB.
Weak NPC despite the 20 in str and dexterity, dies a lot.
Weird romance, that ressemble a twilight movie.
Lost in comparison with an blank NPC as Clara.
I know some devs invested a lot of time and work in making Hexxat, but when you have something on her style with high quality you can't afford to make a half-work.
Valen NPC from Weimer is by far one of the BEST NPC mods i ever played, it change totally the perspective of an evil playthrough. She was ubber? yes, but the game was balanced properly, specially with the ambush of the vampire slayers (a la impossible mission style of Weimer).
VALEN WAS AN VAMPIRE!!! Hexxat is just an Emo poser fan of vampires that think she need blood to survive, cos after Clara's kill, she never used her blood drain skill in history terms anymore in the game. If she wasn't a vampire maybe she would be just another Nalia or Vaylgar NPC (in fact i like Vaylgar when i dual class him to cleric). If i didn't open the record screen often to level up Hexxat or didn't had to trade cloaks on her to avoid sun, i wouldn't even notice that i was playing with an vampire NPC.
By making her a vampire, the Devs induced the obvious and inevitable comparison between Hexxat and Valen, and that my friends, is exactly like the soccer game in the Confederations World Cup where Valen is Spain and Hexxat is Haiti, an 10 x 0 game in favor of Valen.
Cernd is certainly understated but I prefer a NPC that fits within the confines of the BG story than one that tries to compete with the Bhaalspawn saga with their own story. That's why I equally loathe Dorn's raid on Lumia, if only because the scope of it is ridiculous when compared to the other NPCs.
The problem doesn't lies in the size of the quest, but the focus of it, Jaheira romance quest (or even out of romance) is huge and long, but why it's acceptable? It's for the simple reason that while it's a quest involving Jaheira and she must be in the party to it happen, it's entirely focused on Main Char, that quest happens because of main char, and if MC wasn't a children of Bhaal, nothing of that would happen.
If you were to describe the Evil NPCs to a person who had never played either of the BG games, "Edwin the Red Wizard, who joins you after betraying his employer" doesn't sound any more loyal or trustworthy than "Dorn the blackguard, who takes orders from a demon".
You'd be leaving out crucial information if you presented it that way.
A guy who openly admits to slaughtering women and children upon meeting him at the behest of a demon is *much* different from a guy deserting an evil employer who is about to be killed by his organisation for trying to usurp the leader.
Dorn is doing it for power (i.e. self gain) - Edwin's decision is purely based on survival. Had he stayed with Mae'var, he would have died with him and the rest of the guild.
Comments
Some of the new NPCs have quests that are tightly linked like Hexxat being the only one to get you to the tombs, but with Neera and Rasaad you can ditch them after they open their new areas and then complete some of the quests. So to me that seems like tight linking all the way through of the new areas to the NPCs was more of a design decision than a contractual obligation. It's certainly less work mapping out a linear quest path than it is to add options of how to complete it.
The way AndreaColombo puts it in the List of Things That Can't Be Done thread makes it sound like the contract forced them to built the new content as "expansions" which exist outside of the original content (like how Ulgoth's Beard is largely removed from the main content of BG1 vanilla). So they just had to make sure anything new didn't overlap with the existing areas and NPCs (although aspects of Dorn's quests do like assassinating a priest of Lathander in the Lathander Temple kind do). So I see why they had to use NPCs stationed at Athkatla and Trademeet to open up the new areas, but I don't see why they needed the NPCs to babysit Charname through the new areas. To me I can't understsand the jump in logic there.
There might have been a part of the contract that states that all new content must have a NPC attached to it at all times but I doubt it.
Now you're camping out somewhere like the hell-plane thing outside the planar sphere where there's absolutely nobody around that she can hunt. Still comfortable? Nah, didn't think so.
Plus I was mildly offended that my entire party apparently stood around and did nothing while one of my party members begged for her life then got eaten. Bad form.
Reminds me of all those fan-made mod NPC's out there with their various banters seemingly following the mantra of "Don't like my banter? Then no banter for you!" These modders are obviously invested in their characters and often don't allow them to be mocked or otherwise trifled with. Which makes the NPC come off as douchy and ruins immersion. I wish people would realise this.
If anyone likes mods and such, look into the Ninde mod. Not so much for the storyline/romance, perhaps, but certainly in terms of writing. Ninde can be a little over the top herself, and a touch overdone in certain places, but the available responses range from warm to absolutely ridiculing her. Does she follow the "Don't like my banter, then no banter for you" schtick? No. She responds accordingly. That mod is A+ in terms of writing.
Which is more than I can say for the EE NPC's.
Why is this even called Enhanced Edition?
Should be Baldur's Gate: NPC Edition*
* (small print: where only our NPC's are worthwhile.)
Calm down. I'm not going to like your NPC's if they are forced on me. The original cast might be a little "unique," themselves, but at least they were never in your face about it. You told them to get lost, they got lost. Unlike these new ones that try to convince you to take them if you reject them.
"Don't like our NPC's? WELL THEN, NO NEW CONTENT FOR YOU!" - Beamdog.
I don't think I will ever take Dorn along again (too stupid evil) or Neera (hate wildmages). Maybe Rasaad who had the best story for me so far. But Hexxat? Every time baby I will check out your assets and forget to check them in again!
Yeah, lets totally follow a mind controlled creep into a dark tomb, because we all know the words of crazy people offering "treasure" are extremely trustworthy.
Basically the only way to get Hexxat is by being a moron.
For that matter, why would Edwin (who wants power, comfort and luxury), Korgan (who wants easy money and fun killing, and gets along well with the most heroic NPCs in the game) and especially Viconia (who wants to live on the surface unmolested) want to travel with a stupid-evil half-orc Blackguard who brags about killing women and children and clearly brings down the wrath of some of the most powerful authorities in the world? I'm sure they just love all the added difficulty and complication to their lives.
Clara: I've revived you as promised, master! Please let me go...
Hexxat: lol, no
Hexxat: sucker.
Hexxat: *chomp chomp slurp*
Hexxat: So can I join your party?
Charname: You gotta be kidding me... also you have a bit of Clara on your, uh, everything
Gamemaster: Guys, please! I want you to roleplay this. Remember you've never met this guy before, the last guys you met tried to kill you, and you're standing in the ruins of an evil, cursed castle. Just act appropriately.
Magellan: Hello, I'm Magellan, a traveling mage. I notice your group has no wizard.
Rogar: You seem trustworthy. Would you care to join us in our noble quest?
Magellan: Yes. Yes I would.
Why would either of them tolerate Hexxat? Because they're leches (Edwin constantly strikes out with Viconia, and Korgan with Mazzy) and they have a grudging respect for anyone who can carry their own weight (which Hexxat certainly can). That's more of a Chaotic Neutral/Good perspective, IMO. I mean, don't forget that each of these characters throw their lot in with a Bhaalspawn, which is hardly a recipe for easy and convenient living. If the rationale behind an Evil party is to assemble the toughest, most powerful fighting force (which is certainly used as the justification for recruiting Sarevok, someone you have absolutely no reason to trust), then blackguards and vampire thieves are exactly the sort of muscle that team would be looking for. (Dorn, Sarevok and Korgan have an amazing conversation in ToB about sharing war stories and drinking the next tavern dry, which is exactly the sort of thing you'd expect from the top three warriors in the game.)
Furthermore, he doesn't complicate things within the party by joining. He can be placed under a geas, so he is literally a command-obeying soldier. Korgan has one quest that you do for him, after that, he is yours. He is in it for the bloodshed and treasure.
Dorn, on the other hand, is in it because he respects your power. However, your cause is secondary to serving his patron. At any point, if his patron commanded him to kill you, he'd do it or die trying. Despite the fact that he's seen you at your best, and knows you are more powerful than he is. Stupid evil at its finest. He is as much a liability as an asset in this regard because he can turn on you at any given moment.
Hexxat is the same. As someone else pointed above, what if you're trapped elsewhere? There are times where you are stuck in Spellhold or some other-planar dimension. Watcher's Keep. Etc. In these cases, she becomes a liability because she cannot find sustenance. Even ignoring these, she's kind of a liability anyway. She needs to hunt. This could potentially create problems for the party by them being hunted by the law for killing citizens, thus, adversely affecting any quests that they are on. Hard to do anything as an outlaw. All of this seems to be completely ignored by everyone, of course, because it wouldn't be a viable idea if it wasn't.
As for Dorn, you can't have it both ways. You claim that evil parties are simply after power - Thus, him being stripped of power limits his usefulness. He becomes worse than a generic fighter, and there is every reason for an evil party to ditch the neutered Dorn. Dorn with power is an unpredictable Dorn, one that could turn on you at any second if the patron commands it. Again, limiting his usefulness. So either he is powerful and unpredictable, or less-than-powerful and thus not worth it from the evil point of view that is after power, as you claim.
Lastly, your Edwin argument is full of ifs. We could speculate about ifs all day long. Any party member COULD do any number of irrational things at any time (some higher than others, such as Dorn for reasons mentioned above). Let's not go into "ifs."
Hexxat has nothing to do with "ifs." We have actual evidence for the dangers of having a vampire around. A vampire MUST feed. We saw what she did upon meeting her. We also have it from the proverbial horse's mouth - she tells you there is nothing she won't do to survive. Nothing. That is a worrying claim, because you could be her next meal if there is no other option.
So Edwin COULD become a lich. Viconia COULD betray you at the Drow city (though you don't even know you are going to one upon meeting her.) Imoen COULD give into her taint and turn Chaotic Evil. In the world of "ifs" there are endless possibilities and it is pointless discussing them. Claiming these wild theories is really not the same thing as working with solid, factual evidence: Hexxat is a vampire, and as a vampire, she is subject to the aforementioned behaviour, which makes her a very risky and undesirable companion.
I don't fathom how you are not understanding this. I'll put it another way.
Being friends with a known serial killer is much riskier than being friends with a person that has a temper problem.
Clue: In this example, Hexxat would be the serial killer.
Another way to look at it from an evil Bhaalspawn's perspective might be 'she's just a vampire, how many dozen of those have I killed anyway? Threat level - minimal. Let's bring her along and see if she works out; if she doesn't, we'll have Stake Tartar for dinner.'
Just my thoughts, and I'm not trying to persuade anybody - just giving my perspective.
Viconia is a priestess of Shar; Edwin was banished from his own order and is researching very dangerous magic for his own sake, not yours; Korgan is a mercenary with no particular code of ethics or loyalty. None of them are inherently trustworthy, but you take their loyalty as a given because you already know they never betray you.
What you don't get is that the same logic applies to Dorn and Hexxat. You're basing your entire argument on all the things these characters could potentially do because of their natures, but in reality, these things don't happen. You take the same leap of faith with them that you do with the Red Wizard and the drow, and the results are the same.
Anyway, back onto the main point. No, you don't get it, and I most certainly am not wrong about this. Yes, there are all sorts of characters with shady morals or backstories. Everyone's an inherent risk, I have addressed this already. It has nothing to do with my knowledge of the game - if it did, I wouldn't even be speaking about this because I already know Hexxat doesn't betray you. We all know this, so we are discussing things from an RP/story point of view.
Hexxat is a VAMPIRE. As a vampire, (even if she wasn't evil, probably impossible) she is a HUGE risk. Vampires need to feed. She has also stated that she will do anything to survive, and killed a party member of yours in front of you.
She *needs* to kill people to actually just live. No one else has that particular problem. This could draw the eye of the authorities upon you, making doing anything extremely difficult. Life as an outlaw is hard enough, let alone if you're a Bhaalspawn on top of it.
Or if you are in a place where she cannot feed, that is straight away a huge risk for anyone around (like party members). Unlike the others, she actually *needs* to betray you in order to survive, the others MIGHT betray you if a certain situation (profit, most likely) called for it. But that's a world of "ifs", whereas Hexxat's world is one of "woulds."
That is the difference. If you don't understand this simple concept, I don't see any further reason in talking to you.
However: you say that Edwin pursues power (he also likes luxury and wealth, as MaeVar told us and he himself has stated many times..."if it were not for the gobs of magic and wealth that seem to fall into your lap"). Accompanying a Bhaalspawn certainly brings that. He or she is a powerful ally that accumulates wealth at a rapid pace. However, allying with a vampire that NEEDS your help does not bring the same thing to the table, and is not as valuable an ally. Considering the powers that will come against you if you have her, she is by FAR more of a liability for Edwin. Dorn is the same. I doubt that Edwin thinks an insane bloodthirsty unthinking brute would be a good ally. I can't imagine him doing anything but dismissing him as a simple simian who does nothing but bring headaches and risk to the Red Wizard's quest for money and power.
Viconia also seems to want nothing but to travel the surface unmolested. She HATES any risks judging from her banters, and appreciates low-key lifestyle choices that still bring power. She travels with charname for two or three reasons:
a. he and his allies have the power to protect her from aggressive surfacers
b. since he finds acceptance as a Bhaalspawn, she can also be tolerated (as in not being killed on sight) as a surface Drow
c. If they have a romance
I can't see how Hexxat brings any of that for her. Especially if she just joined your party after almost getting burned at the stake. Why would she want to invite more scrutiny? To "help" a vampire out of the goodness of her heart? Come on. Dorn is even worse! Not only does he bring instability, but he makes it harder for her to travel.
Korgan and Dorn are fine, in my opinion. However, it is clear that Hexxat disturbs him (judging from some poorly connived dialogue in the game). Still... he could destroy her easily in reality. I don't see why he would put up with her and her problems. He doesn't like helping anyone out of the goodness of his heart, other than for the occasional excitement. Still, of the three original Evil Bioware NPCs, he seems to be the most likely to get along with the two new characters. That is metagaming to a very, very, very large extent
The bottom line is that barring specific incompatibilities (Keldorn and Anomen shouldn't be okay with a vampire in the group; Viconia shouldn't tolerate the presence of a Selunite monk actively attacking her goddess' followers; Edwin and Minsc have a history), the NPCs themselves have no say in the Bhaalspawn's choice of companions. They may have their own motivations for following you, but you're never given any reason to think any Evil characters - original or EE - are inherently less trustworthy than any other potential party member.
If you were to describe the Evil NPCs to a person who had never played either of the BG games, "Edwin the Red Wizard, who joins you after betraying his employer" doesn't sound any more loyal or trustworthy than "Dorn the blackguard, who takes orders from a demon".
I raise some points that i saw here, as:
A vampire with no interaction in Bodhi's lair.
Do everything to survive and become a pool of charity, look that i didn't even played her to the end, i disliked her so much, that togheter with my fallen blackguard Dorn (that spoiled all the fun of playing dorn) i abandoned my evil playthrough after killing Grommir in ToB.
Weak NPC despite the 20 in str and dexterity, dies a lot.
Weird romance, that ressemble a twilight movie.
Lost in comparison with an blank NPC as Clara.
I know some devs invested a lot of time and work in making Hexxat, but when you have something on her style with high quality you can't afford to make a half-work.
Valen NPC from Weimer is by far one of the BEST NPC mods i ever played, it change totally the perspective of an evil playthrough. She was ubber? yes, but the game was balanced properly, specially with the ambush of the vampire slayers (a la impossible mission style of Weimer).
VALEN WAS AN VAMPIRE!!! Hexxat is just an Emo poser fan of vampires that think she need blood to survive, cos after Clara's kill, she never used her blood drain skill in history terms anymore in the game. If she wasn't a vampire maybe she would be just another Nalia or Vaylgar NPC (in fact i like Vaylgar when i dual class him to cleric). If i didn't open the record screen often to level up Hexxat or didn't had to trade cloaks on her to avoid sun, i wouldn't even notice that i was playing with an vampire NPC.
By making her a vampire, the Devs induced the obvious and inevitable comparison between Hexxat and Valen, and that my friends, is exactly like the soccer game in the Confederations World Cup where Valen is Spain and Hexxat is Haiti, an 10 x 0 game in favor of Valen.
The problem doesn't lies in the size of the quest, but the focus of it, Jaheira romance quest (or even out of romance) is huge and long, but why it's acceptable? It's for the simple reason that while it's a quest involving Jaheira and she must be in the party to it happen, it's entirely focused on Main Char, that quest happens because of main char, and if MC wasn't a children of Bhaal, nothing of that would happen.
A guy who openly admits to slaughtering women and children upon meeting him at the behest of a demon is *much* different from a guy deserting an evil employer who is about to be killed by his organisation for trying to usurp the leader.
Dorn is doing it for power (i.e. self gain) - Edwin's decision is purely based on survival. Had he stayed with Mae'var, he would have died with him and the rest of the guild.
Not the same thing by a long shot.