@shawne If you think having the highest INT in the game or being the only bard is somehow as immersion breaking as vampirism without traditional weaknesses, then I can't convince you. Anyway, in my opinion Hexxat is a badly written character. Because she is too special to the point of immersion breaking and because the whole mysterious and distanced stick of her produces a boring, limited character. Hexxat is solely defined by a few buzzwords and never leaves the constraints of her character sheet. I played with her in my party through SoA and large parts of ToB until she bugged out of the game. At numerous points her dialogue or rather lack thereof left me wondering if my game bugged out and I missed large chunks of character development. She does not have realistic character conflicts with several characters that should hate her and those interactions she has are often cringeworthy. She threatens Bodhi if you join up with her and have Hexxat in your party, for example. Compared with characters like Edwin or Viconia who actually do something with their backgrounds and have memorable dialogue, Hexxat is very lacking.
But sure, I'm biased and opposing NPCs for their non-heteronormativity if I so much as mention her sexuality in a long list of reasons for why I dislike Hexxats writing.
Hexxat does not. Hexxat is what many people call a 'special snowflake'. Not because she is from Chult or a vampire or a lesbian, or because she has rule breaking items. I consider her to be badly written because she is a vampire AND from Chult AND a lesbian AND has a cloak covering her vampire weakness AND has a bag of holding covering another of her vampire weaknesses.
I'll say it again: you can describe every single character in BG2 this way.
Edwin is from Thay and has the highest INT in the game and has a special amulet that gives him more spells than he's legally supposed to have.
Minsc is from Rashemen and he has a super-special pet who may or may not be a Giant Space Hamster and he's a Ranger who can Rage.
Haer'Dalis is from another dimension and he's a tiefling and he's the only NPC who romances another party member and he's the only bard in the game.
If you want to keep indulging your bias by imagining that the original characters weren't written to be unique in exactly the same way as Hexxat, go ahead. Just drop the "special snowflake" nonsense because you're conflating a lot of things that are not what you claim they are.
There's no point bringing in the old characters into your arguments. They don't add any weight to it. The writing for old characters like Korgan, Edwin and Minsc has been some of the best I have ever seen in RPG games. It is at a completely different level to Hexxat. The fact that she is both a vampire and a lesbian pretty much indicate writing borderlines fan fiction. After all, the character is at the mercy of the writer. In terms of the actually mechanisms, carrying a portable coffin along with a cloak that allows her to walk under bright sun light is a try-hard, over the top implement that should have never happened. It turned people off, plain and simple.
There's no point bringing in the old characters into your arguments. They don't add any weight to it. The writing for old characters like Korgan, Edwin and Minsc has been some of the best I have ever seen in RPG games.
Are you serious? I can't even decide whether I'm more bemused that you think BG has some of the best writing you've ever seen in RPG games, or that you use Edwin and Minsc as examples of this best writing.
I mean, hey, subjective tastes are subjective tastes, I suppose. But to be honest, even the very best writing in BG is pretty amateur hour. Doesn't mean you can't enjoy it, of course. I enjoy fighting game storylines too, which tend to around the same level.
The fact that she is both a vampire and a lesbian pretty much indicate writing borderlines fan fiction.
Could you and yours please stop referring to "lesbian" as if it is something other than a complete normal part of the human condition that anybody would expect to be represented in a random cross-section of a couple dozen people?
Any NPC in BG is first of all a NPC in BG. This means that the quality of that NPC is dependant to a large part on how natural the NPC feels as a part of the game world of BG. Whether or not notions of political correctness play into the specifics of the NPC isn't important for its quality.
Having a lesbian in a game with many characters is not political correctness. It is representing reality. Faerun is not a magical hetero-safe NO GAY ZONE. This is actually canonical, BTW. So there is no reason that it is even worthy of comment that someone is a lesbian. Period.
I consider her to be badly written because she is a vampire AND from Chult AND a lesbian AND has a cloak covering her vampire weakness AND has a bag of holding covering another of her vampire weaknesses.
Whereas I decide whether characters are well or badly written based upon whether they're well or badly written, not upon an arbitrary list of criteria that I decide automatically make someone "too exotic".
BTW, vampires are a hell of a lot more common and unnoteworthy in-setting than tieflings are. Or, for that matter, "miniature giant space hamsters".
Plus her further dialogue makes no attempt to alleviate any of that. She was written to be mysterious and distanced, only giving short answers. Which only serves to make her shallow, because she gives no real answer to any question. The player learns nothing about her past or her character through her dialogue.
Yes you do. I assume the dialogues in question are linked to her romance, since I learned a fair bit about her past and character.
Before you complain about that, I'll point out you learn jack about Aerie if you don't at least start her romance. It's not an ideal situation, I will freely grant, but it again isn't unique to Hexxat (or to Baldur's Gate).
No doubt people have requested for Xzar to be saved but not at the expense of Jaheira.
Probably because Xzar and Jaheira have nothing to do with each other? Xzar's quest and death is the same whether you have Jaheira in your party as a romance or whether you left her missile-ridden corpse in Irenicus's dungeon.
I disagree with the notion that they are different characters. The developer obviously intended for them to be mutually exclusive because they have the same class/alignment/stats. In that sense, Clara is just the identical half of the same character for the purpose of story transition.
They are different characters because they are literally different characters. They are different people with a different face, voice, name, and stats. I'm not even sure what you're arguing here.
From what I can gather in the forum posts is that a good proportion of players would rather prefer Clara in her current state than Hexxat.
Your first mistake is assuming that several people in a forum represent anything other than several people in a forum.
Your second mistake is in somehow missing that people who hate the idea of a Clara DLC are about equal in numbers to people who want a Clara DLC, which is why every thread on the topic keeps getting closed due to flamewars.
Your third mistake is in assuming that wanting Clara to be a character (as I do) means you think that Hexxat is poor quality or otherwise deficient (as I do not).
If you actually stop being so defensive about Hexxat in a obsessive-compulsive way, you would understand that most of the issues brought up by numerous people are valid arguments.
Your fourth mistake is in assuming that because you agree with an argument, it is self-evidently true and therefore the only possible reason somebody could have for disagreeing is because they're stupid, malicious, or not paying attention. I know these arguments; I reject them. To illustrate:
Different types of vampires are canonical for D&D; Hexxat lacks both some of the weaknesses but also some of the strengths of the local vampires, and has a few unique abilities. I reject this argument.
the background development (as you mentioned it yourself that she spent all of her vampiric life in isolation in a coffin implicating that she is just a vampire fledgling yet she dealt with someone like L - it just does not make any sense),
Her background development is considerably more than most of the BG NPCs, it just doesn't include her time as a vampire. I reject this argument.
She has lots of dialogue longer than that. This argument is objectively wrong, and also pretty silly since writing quality is not dependent on the length of a character's sentences.
all pretty much contributed to the failure to engage the players.
Plenty of people like Hexxat. I reject this unsupported claim that is based primarily on what you want to believe is true and not even on the "forum posts" you wanted to use to support it earlier - the primary reason all Clara threads end in flames is that overzealous Hexxat-lovers perceive them as an attack on Hexxat.
I have issues with Hexxat, but they tend to stem purely from the writing.
Like it or not, in the wests current cultural political climate Hexxat is exotic. Now i'm not saying that is a good thing, it's not, but it is a fact due to the incredible under representation of women, poc and gay characters in all media.
Unfortunately poring all three things into one character on top of vampirism means that character has a lot to deliver in terms of writing, and will inevitably be put under a bigger microscope because of it. Once again, not ideal, but reality.
Hexxats issue is that she fails to do any one thing justice. Pushing aside her gender, as gender representation isn't too much of an issue among companions, we never learn anything about her culture that isn't incidental and her lesbianism is only explored in a very shallow sense. The same goes for her vampirism. And even if you feel that these things should be incidental within a modern narrative, i don't feel we get enough character that is divorced from these concepts beyond the vague talks about her mother.
I don't agree with the argument that Hexxat is a problem because of her "exotic nature" because I just don't believe there is anything inherently narrative destroying about any of her component parts, even in combination. I do however think that she suffers from a general lack of focus that a less thematically cluttered character wouldn't have had. Of course, good writing could of made up for this.
I don't share the same vitriol that some on the forum have for her. But I do wish she was a more satisfying romance option and character in general.
There's no point bringing in the old characters into your arguments. They don't add any weight to it. The writing for old characters like Korgan, Edwin and Minsc has been some of the best I have ever seen in RPG games.
Are you serious? I can't even decide whether I'm more bemused that you think BG has some of the best writing you've ever seen in RPG games, or that you use Edwin and Minsc as examples of this best writing.
I mean, hey, subjective tastes are subjective tastes, I suppose. But to be honest, even the very best writing in BG is pretty amateur hour. Doesn't mean you can't enjoy it, of course. I enjoy fighting game storylines too, which tend to around the same level.
The fact that she is both a vampire and a lesbian pretty much indicate writing borderlines fan fiction.
Could you and yours please stop referring to "lesbian" as if it is something other than a complete normal part of the human condition that anybody would expect to be represented in a random cross-section of a couple dozen people?
In no way did I mention that being a lesbian is out of norm. What I said was that defining Hexxat as both vampire and lesbian did not work for me. Since neither aspects of Hexxat were adequately written and shaped in the game. As a consequence of that, I felt like the material written was bordering fan fiction.
One of the main reason why people kept coming back to BG2 is the writing. Good writing holds up for as long as the game exists. Vivid and intriguing characters require good writing. It's also the little bit of random banters that make the overall experience engaging.
If you think that the writing of this game is 'amateur' and is on par with fighting game story lines then obviously you play it for different reasons, which is fine. Although it's popularity and the amount of awards it has won over the years is inconsistent with your claim.
No doubt people have requested for Xzar to be saved but not at the expense of Jaheira.
Probably because Xzar and Jaheira have nothing to do with each other? Xzar's quest and death is the same whether you have Jaheira in your party as a romance or whether you left her missile-ridden corpse in Irenicus's dungeon.
I disagree with the notion that they are different characters. The developer obviously intended for them to be mutually exclusive because they have the same class/alignment/stats. In that sense, Clara is just the identical half of the same character for the purpose of story transition.
They are different characters because they are literally different characters. They are different people with a different face, voice, name, and stats. I'm not even sure what you're arguing here.
From what I can gather in the forum posts is that a good proportion of players would rather prefer Clara in her current state than Hexxat.
Your first mistake is assuming that several people in a forum represent anything other than several people in a forum.
Your second mistake is in somehow missing that people who hate the idea of a Clara DLC are about equal in numbers to people who want a Clara DLC, which is why every thread on the topic keeps getting closed due to flamewars.
Your third mistake is in assuming that wanting Clara to be a character (as I do) means you think that Hexxat is poor quality or otherwise deficient (as I do not).
If you actually stop being so defensive about Hexxat in a obsessive-compulsive way, you would understand that most of the issues brought up by numerous people are valid arguments.
Your fourth mistake is in assuming that because you agree with an argument, it is self-evidently true and therefore the only possible reason somebody could have for disagreeing is because they're stupid, malicious, or not paying attention. I know these arguments; I reject them. To illustrate:
Different types of vampires are canonical for D&D; Hexxat lacks both some of the weaknesses but also some of the strengths of the local vampires, and has a few unique abilities. I reject this argument.
the background development (as you mentioned it yourself that she spent all of her vampiric life in isolation in a coffin implicating that she is just a vampire fledgling yet she dealt with someone like L - it just does not make any sense),
Her background development is considerably more than most of the BG NPCs, it just doesn't include her time as a vampire. I reject this argument.
She has lots of dialogue longer than that. This argument is objectively wrong, and also pretty silly since writing quality is not dependent on the length of a character's sentences.
all pretty much contributed to the failure to engage the players.
Plenty of people like Hexxat. I reject this unsupported claim that is based primarily on what you want to believe is true and not even on the "forum posts" you wanted to use to support it earlier - the primary reason all Clara threads end in flames is that overzealous Hexxat-lovers perceive them as an attack on Hexxat.
Clara and Hexxat are one and the same as far as the plot goes. Their stats are 100% identical (Nerfed Hexxat). Their profession and alignment are single class thieves and evil, respectively. Despite Clara having a different portrait and voice, she was only meant to serve as a interlude character who paved the way for the real NPC of this quest - Hexxat. So plot-wise, they are the same, split personality if you prefer.
It goes without saying that there are people who are happy with Hexxat and with or without an alternative option to keep Clara. However, there is a significant proportion of people that feel that Hexxat, despite being evil, does not fit well into an evil party as a vampire. This is likely due to the lack of depth and believability of Hexxat as a Vampire NPC.
Being a vampire, a lesbian or a non-white NPC on their own doesn't make Hexxat "exotic". But her representing all of the above at the same time makes her a stereotype of the "exotic". It's not that she represents a certain aspect, it's that she represents all of them combined as one entity.
Let's break it down into three aspects of Hexxat; the vampire, the lesbian and the tribal black woman. All three intersect when it comes to stereotypes, so I've tried my best to separate them.
---
The Vampire:
When you cast a black person in the role of an undead being you invite all sort of undesirable comparisons or connotations. Especially when there has been a history in pop culture and western society to fetishize the black woman in particular as the mystical or the exotic.
I brought up the example of the film Vamp earlier to compare with Hexxat. In that film we are told that the vampire Katrina comes from an ancient tribal background but nothing else is elaborated upon, partly because the character is mute and partly because the filmmakers don't care to explore her origins. Instead the role is played by Grace Jones who earlier played the menacing James Bond villain Mayday in A View To A Kill and as a barely dressed amazonian woman in the Conan film series. She was typecast in the 80s to play the exotic menacing black warrior woman.
Then you have another James Bond villain in the portrayal of Mr Big roleplaying Baron Samedi in the film Live and Let Die. You could make a case saying that the villain is using an icon of the Haitian religion in confines of the story to strike fear in his lackeys. But the story was written by a rather bigoted white man about his idea of Haitian culture. Not to mention we are given the impression at the end of Live and Let Die that Mr Big is more than your mere mortal, that somehow he might be undead.
Then you have the origins of the modern zombie coming from West Africa or Haiti. In Haiti there is the belief of a female witch/sorceress having the ability to possess the undead.
There is also an entire genre called Blaxploitation, where black people are placed into certain situation either for novelty value or to be laughed at. One notable example is the film Blackula which has the entire premise of a black vampire going around killing white people.
I could go on but there is a whole history surrounding the vampire or the undead with black culture or representations of black people. When you create a vampire like Hexxat who happens to be black, you have to be incredibly cautious to not fall into any pop culture pitfalls. I really don't see any effort to at least subvert the stereotype of the strong mysterious black vampire aka the Katrina. Maybe I missed it, but there didn't seem much to miss.
It's important to note that western culture has also co-opted Asian and Middle Eastern ideas of the undead to equally comical standards. Probably no coincidence that Hexxat's tomb hopping quest stops her by the asian inspired Kara-Tur setting or the middle eastern inspired Al Qadim setting. You can't remove Kara-Tur and Al Qadim from the Forgotten Realms setting but you can avoid shoehorning them into Hexxat's quest. Seems like it was just an excuse to stop by the more "exotic" regions of the Forgotten Realms just because they are a change of scenery. When really they are their own culture or society that demands they be explored and treated as more than just a fleeting novelty.
---
The Lesbian:
This part of her identity leads on from the vampire. The earliest portrayal of the modern vampire in fiction comes from the novel Camilla (it predates Dracula by 25 years). The whole story is pretty much based around the female vampire's attraction to a human woman, and is the archetype of the vampiric lesbian. So the lesbian vampire is arguably the oldest vampire trope. It's important to note that Camilla's lesbian identity is seen to be her central corruptive influence, so having a lesbian vampire isn't the most empowering portrayal of a lesbian NPC.
What is also disappointing from a player's perspective is that the same sex romances in BG2:EE are all with the truly nasty evil NPCs. But not only are they evil NPCs but they are outcasts, perversions of nature. It would have been nice to have a gay or lesbian romanceable NPC that was relatively normal or "neutral". I'm sure there is a sizeable portion of the audience that doesn't want to have a blood soaked foul demonic presence being the only thing compatible with their sexual orientation.
---
The Tribal Woman:
It's not offensive to have a NPC that is from a tribal society, but it is certainly disappointing when you claim they are but completely gloss over any sort of customs or beliefs as simply being mysterious. If the mystique of Kara-Tur or Al Qadim can be unveiled, why can't the island of Chult? Having a Chultan NPC is the perfect opportunity for said NPC to share her customs with those who are largely ignorant of such things. Yet by the end of traveling with Hexxat we get that she is from a tribe, had priestess mother gave her up and that in her epilogue she goes back to terrorise her ancestors, almost destroying the central religion of Chult. From what is written of Chult, I find it incredibly difficult to believe that one vampire could manage the destruction of Ubtao's faith.
Especially when the tribe of the Tabaxi isn't just a handful of human tribes but at least 3000 to 5000 in size. Not to mention that they live in a walled city of mazes called Mezro with experience in defeating not only the undead but dinosaurs. I'm not even sure Hexxat could take down a tyrannosaurus rex on her own.
The point being that there are many different facets to a woman from Chult rather than them being simply a tribal woman. She could talk about the giant maze city of Mezro, the giant reptiles that roam, the many tribal goblins or jungle dwarves that feud with the Tabaxi, the shadow god Eshowdow, how she got away from Chult, why she turned to thievery, etc... The most shallow thing you could do with a Chultan NPC is say that they came from a tribe and leave it at that. It gives the impression that what Chult offers is rather simplistic when they are rather advanced, not technologically but socially.
Now let's look at the non-white NPCs of Valygar and Viconia. Valygar is a black man but he has none of the Earth based cliches that hold him back, in the Forgotten Realms he is pretty much like any other male ranger. There's no fetishizing of him being black and there are no racial constraints in how he is expected to act, he's just Valygar. The only thing that holds him back is that he is a victim of rushed content but as a character he is no racial chacature.
With Viconia, she obviously has no Earth based race since she is a drow. However you can say that the difference between her BG1 and BG2 portrait is lightened skin and blonde hair, which could be seen as a way to make her more beautiful from a western perspective (to me she just ends up looking like Smurfette). Instead her character alludes to the struggle of racial equality, but in a way that doesn't draw parallels to any particular Earth based race. That's why she is successful, she taps into a certain aspect of the human struggle but in an everyman sort of way. There's many layers and interpretations to her, however with Hexxat there is only one way to interpret her.
Black women pretty much get the short stick when it comes to being portrayed with diversity in pop culture but even moreso in fantasy. I don't think Hexxat does them many favors in stepping outside the cliche. Viconia despite being a Drow provides a richer representation despite not being explicitly black. You could even argue against Hexxat being from Chult, since Valygar shows that you don't have to be black and come from a tribal background. It would have been smarter if they either embraced Hexxat's Chultan identity 100% without the baggage of being undead or just find another homeland if this is all they wanted to do with it.
---
Hexxat might be a change of pace compared to the NPCs currently in BG2 But when you expand the aspects of her identity out to a larger pop culture scale, you find nothing particularly new. In fact you find things that are so deeply rooted in the fantasy stereotypes that it ends up being quite banal. Like it was mentioned above, we are in the year 2014, these sort of portrayals might have flown in the 80s but we should know better. In fact we do know better and that is why we are disappointed with Hexxat, she is just so dated.
I am still happy that they tried. And some degree of representation is better then total erasure (as it can be critiqued at very least). But yes, there certainly are many pitfalls in creating a character like this and unfortunately Hexxat doesn't manage to break the mold.
In no way did I mention that being a lesbian is out of norm. What I said was that defining Hexxat as both vampire and lesbian did not work for me. Since neither aspects of Hexxat were adequately written and shaped in the game. As a consequence of that, I felt like the material written was bordering fan fiction.
Why is being lesbian have anything to do with "fan fiction"?
If you think that the writing of this game is 'amateur' and is on par with fighting game story lines then obviously you play it for different reasons, which is fine. Although it's popularity and the amount of awards it has won over the years is inconsistent with your claim.
For 15 years ago, the writing was great, if you put aside Planescape Torment and a vanishingly few other examples. It's not 15 years ago.
Video game writing is very amateur. That doesn't mean I don't enjoy it, because schlocky writing can be enjoyable. But by the metrics I use to define good writing, and the metrics most people use to define "good writing", it's not very good. Of course, those metrics are subjective, as all critique of art is subjective. But by the same token that I can say American Beauty is a "better" movie than Street Fighter, even though I enjoyed both, Baldur's Gate simply isn't that well written. It's full of cliches, the characters rarely rise beyond archetypes, there's numerous plot holes (and even more places where you're railroaded through things that logically the characters could and even should have handled differently), and so on and so forth.
And yeah, it is about on par with many fighting game storylines. Note I said I enjoyed them. I enjoy Baldur's Gate, too. But in neither case do I think it's a great miscarriage of justice that traditional awards aren't recognising their brilliance. And in neither case would I count them among the best storylines I've ever read, in video games or elsewhere.
If you do, that's fine! As I said, writing is subjective. I admittedly can't think much of your taste for thinking THAT highly of Baldur's Gate's writing, but I also don't think much of the taste of people who think Game of Thrones is the greatest tv show ever. I enjoy both of them, however (well, except when GoT pisses me off, which is admittedly kind of often).
I could argue about the points brought up about Hexxat, but why bother? It's mostly subjective. I was only registering that not everyone agrees with you, so that you can stop doing this kind of self-congratulatory BS:
"But because she is official content, people are defending - Wait.. No. They're not. Finally. You know an NPC is truly horrible when no one likes her and notices the writing/character development simply sucks. And when the other half are calling for Clara over Hexxat. "
Lots of people like Hexxat, as most people in this thread ought to be perfectly well aware. I assume most of them are avoiding the thread because of the holidays, or because this thread is a morass of awful opinions like: "As a man, I can safely say that I don't really understand women. And I certainly don't understand women who want nothing to do with either my or anyone's else's cock."
The reason I no longer wish to discuss anything with you is because you evidently have a lack of even the most basic of comprehension skills.
What part of: "But because she is official content, people are defending - Wait.. No. They're not. Finally. You know an NPC is truly horrible when no one likes her and notices the writing/character development simply sucks. And when the other half are calling for Clara over Hexxat. "
Has ANYTHING to do with: "As a man, I can safely say that I don't really understand women. And I certainly don't understand women who want nothing to do with either my or anyone's else's cock."
I see you are berating other posters for saying things about her being a lesbian but you are the one bringing it up even where it wasn't present. I never once mentioned her sexuality. I mentioned the poor quality of the romance. So why bring it up? Making a straw man argument is not any way to approach a discussion, and it just pisses people off. Like me for example, where I am no longer willing to discuss anything with your type of ilk ever again.
Now, a lesbian vampire IS borderline fanfiction. There's so many examples in pop culture about this, and the idea is extremely popular among young teenage girls. If you haven't noticed it you must be living under a rock, your mum's basement, or somewhere far removed from western society. Regardless, whether you agree with it or not is irrelevant because this particular thing does not need your approval to be true. It is very true. Moreover, being a lesbian is normal, yes. But being a lesbian also puts her into a niche character (because being a lesbian isn't a 50/50 split between women. It is not that common.) Thus, as well as being from Chult, a vampire and a lesbian puts her in three separate niches. It's overboard.
As for the quality of writing is subjective, yes, it is. But any monkey can see that the writing from the old Bioware was far, far superior to the writing of what Beamdog has produced. Furthermore, I think the writing of the BG series is of a very good standard and high quality. I don't know what you're comparing it to in order to call it "schlocky" or write it off as "video game writing, amateur" etc.
Oh, and this has got to be the latest in the list of the stupidest things I've read from you:
"For 15 years ago, the writing was great, if you put aside Planescape Torment and a vanishingly few other examples. It's not 15 years ago."
Shakespeare must be crying. His 15 years are long over.
Speaking of reading comprehension, Edwin, you are clearly completely desperate to get banned. I don't really want to be the cause of you getting banned, so I'll decline to respond to you further, at least in this thread. I really recommend for your own good that you cool off a bit.
Speaking of reading comprehension, Edwin, you are clearly completely desperate to get banned.
Speaking of reading comprehension I too will say something that has nothing to do with reading comprehension.
This is pretty much the only thing I can contribute to a thread that has clearly gone down the drain. Name calling is for kids, and Edwin showed a lack of respect by doing so, so a jailing wasn't unheard of in this situation. However, how in the world is instigating by saying things like:
All that being said, I'm going to take the route to which several other posters have had to resort, and leave you to wallow in your own bile. GLHF.
in any way better?
Pretty much: 1. For the record, disliking a single fictional lesbian character does not equate to disliking all gays/lesbians, be they real or fictional 2. Unfortunately there are quite a few backward people who actually DO dislike gays/lesbians, and unfortunately make having a real discussion about these characters next to impossible 3. This is not an excuse to paint everyone who disagrees with you about a character who is gay/black/belonging to some other historically victimized group as a bigot. This is a poor way to try to attain the "moral high ground. I mean its really sad that someone like @jackjack who I've never seen have problems with anyobdy felt the need to say
I don't give two anythings about her romance, her and anyone else's sexual preferences are not something I take issue with - as far as I'm concerned, everyone has a right to love or lust after anyone they damn well please. I was simply disappointed by the way her story played out. That's literally it.
as if he needs to justify his opinions and prove that he's not a jerk 4. A gay/lesbian romance actually is something to be discussed, and actually does make Hexxat different/unique. To say otherwise is to imply that Aerie, who has a romance, is somehow no different as a character than Mazzy, who does not. I dunno why "unique" somehow interpreted as "bad" by some people. 5. The main problem with Hexxat being a lesbian is that she is a *Evil* *Vampire* lesbian. The two same-sex relationships in the game are with a serial killer and a sociopath. It would be nice to see a homosexual relationship that was handled with the same dignity as other relationships in the game. Steamy conversations between Hexxat and Viconia that seem like they were pulled out of some sort of exploitation film does not accomplish this. It is ironic for someone to defend this portrayal and somehow claim that people who criticize it are bigoted.
Having a same sex relationship in a game just to have have a same sex relationship in a game does not appeal to many people, including myself. A well written same-sex relationship with a non-sociopathic character might. That is what is the problem here.
Banned or not, I'm going out saying what I want. I'm not going to be silenced by the one-way justice system that these forums are rife with. You and Cyteen deserve a warning as much as I do, yet I am the only one being pulled up on it? Disgusting.
Thanks to @booinyoureyes for doing what no one else seems to and standing up for the truth.
The rules should be changed on these boards to complaint-based. If someone has a problem, they report it, and the mods then investigate. As it stands now, the mods peruse these boards picking who they want to ban/warn, and I happen to be the most obvious scapegoat. I remember another thread where myself and another user were heatedly debating a topic. No one was being rude or name-calling, and a mod stepped in and warned us to "calm down." When I prompted the mod, asking them when did a heated debate require a warning, the mod didn't reply. This is censorship, babysitting, not moderating.
And I am being personally targeted, it seems. I'm sick of it.
As for not "answering" me, I suspect it is because you have absolutely nothing to say to my arguments that completely destroyed you and your viewpoint.
@Mordeus and @booinyoureyes Well said. It's a shame that honest discussion about a character gets swamped down in political correctness just because that character is of an earthly minority.
@Edwin_Odesseiron The reason you were warned is the same reason you were warned the first two times; don't pretend to be surprised when you face consequences for repeatedly breaking the same rule.
That said, there are plenty of things to criticize Hexxat for. I remember creating a character in my D&D group, and my DM pulling me aside to tell me that I had loaded too many dimensions onto her. Not that a character couldn't be multidimensional, but when several of those dimensions happen to be tropes it stops feeling like depth of character and starts feeling like lazy writing.
So the criticism here isn't that Hexxat is a lesbian, but that her lesbianism appears to be a trope, further emphasized by her being a vampire, further emphasized by her being a person of color. So even ignoring the writing (which I would argue is better than a lot of people here seem to be suggesting), the skeleton of the character comes off as a bit of a Mary Sue, which is understandable. Not much we can do about that at this point, but it's worthwhile information to have.
(Having said that, I still think her story is worthwhile; she's a vampire, but if you play through her story she's not your typical "Im in ur party drinkin' ur blood" vampire; there's a depth to her that goes beyond the buzzwords, but you have to try to see beyond the tropes to get there.)
Clara is a bit of a problem as well; she shows up, joins your party, demands that you do her quest immediately, and then immediately dies and is replaced by someone else. So rather than the moment of her death being imbued with the sadness of losing someone you care about or the anger of watching her die, you're left with a question about what might have been, could you have saved her, etc. Again there's not much we can do about it at this point, but the criticism is understandable.
The reason the "Clara DLC" threads tend to be closed has less to do with anti-LGBT sentiments, although that does occasionally factor into it; more often than not the thread descends into personal attacks and flaming. People have very strong opinions about these characters, which can only ever be a good thing, and when those opinions oppose each other the result is sometimes less than pleasant. That has been the case in this thread as well.
So. How do we proceed? Do we just put a ban on all discussions relating to Clara and Hexxat? That seems counterintuitive, given that we created these characters, and we want people to talk about them. But I do need to require that when people talk about them, and when the inevitable opposing opinions arise, people keep following the site rules.
Personal attacks like the ones expressed by @Cyteen, @Ayiekie, @Disgruntler, and others are not okay, they have never been okay, they will never be okay. Find another way to disagree, one that doesn't involve insulting or assaulting the other person's integrity.
Comments
If you think having the highest INT in the game or being the only bard is somehow as immersion breaking as vampirism without traditional weaknesses, then I can't convince you.
Anyway, in my opinion Hexxat is a badly written character. Because she is too special to the point of immersion breaking and because the whole mysterious and distanced stick of her produces a boring, limited character.
Hexxat is solely defined by a few buzzwords and never leaves the constraints of her character sheet. I played with her in my party through SoA and large parts of ToB until she bugged out of the game. At numerous points her dialogue or rather lack thereof left me wondering if my game bugged out and I missed large chunks of character development. She does not have realistic character conflicts with several characters that should hate her and those interactions she has are often cringeworthy. She threatens Bodhi if you join up with her and have Hexxat in your party, for example.
Compared with characters like Edwin or Viconia who actually do something with their backgrounds and have memorable dialogue, Hexxat is very lacking.
But sure, I'm biased and opposing NPCs for their non-heteronormativity if I so much as mention her sexuality in a long list of reasons for why I dislike Hexxats writing.
I don't know, maybe it's a i-coffin.
I mean, hey, subjective tastes are subjective tastes, I suppose. But to be honest, even the very best writing in BG is pretty amateur hour. Doesn't mean you can't enjoy it, of course. I enjoy fighting game storylines too, which tend to around the same level. Could you and yours please stop referring to "lesbian" as if it is something other than a complete normal part of the human condition that anybody would expect to be represented in a random cross-section of a couple dozen people?
BTW, vampires are a hell of a lot more common and unnoteworthy in-setting than tieflings are. Or, for that matter, "miniature giant space hamsters". Yes you do. I assume the dialogues in question are linked to her romance, since I learned a fair bit about her past and character.
Before you complain about that, I'll point out you learn jack about Aerie if you don't at least start her romance. It's not an ideal situation, I will freely grant, but it again isn't unique to Hexxat (or to Baldur's Gate).
Your second mistake is in somehow missing that people who hate the idea of a Clara DLC are about equal in numbers to people who want a Clara DLC, which is why every thread on the topic keeps getting closed due to flamewars.
Your third mistake is in assuming that wanting Clara to be a character (as I do) means you think that Hexxat is poor quality or otherwise deficient (as I do not). Your fourth mistake is in assuming that because you agree with an argument, it is self-evidently true and therefore the only possible reason somebody could have for disagreeing is because they're stupid, malicious, or not paying attention. I know these arguments; I reject them. To illustrate: Different types of vampires are canonical for D&D; Hexxat lacks both some of the weaknesses but also some of the strengths of the local vampires, and has a few unique abilities. I reject this argument. Her background development is considerably more than most of the BG NPCs, it just doesn't include her time as a vampire. I reject this argument. She has lots of dialogue longer than that. This argument is objectively wrong, and also pretty silly since writing quality is not dependent on the length of a character's sentences. Plenty of people like Hexxat. I reject this unsupported claim that is based primarily on what you want to believe is true and not even on the "forum posts" you wanted to use to support it earlier - the primary reason all Clara threads end in flames is that overzealous Hexxat-lovers perceive them as an attack on Hexxat.
Like it or not, in the wests current cultural political climate Hexxat is exotic. Now i'm not saying that is a good thing, it's not, but it is a fact due to the incredible under representation of women, poc and gay characters in all media.
Unfortunately poring all three things into one character on top of vampirism means that character has a lot to deliver in terms of writing, and will inevitably be put under a bigger microscope because of it. Once again, not ideal, but reality.
Hexxats issue is that she fails to do any one thing justice. Pushing aside her gender, as gender representation isn't too much of an issue among companions, we never learn anything about her culture that isn't incidental and her lesbianism is only explored in a very shallow sense. The same goes for her vampirism. And even if you feel that these things should be incidental within a modern narrative, i don't feel we get enough character that is divorced from these concepts beyond the vague talks about her mother.
I don't agree with the argument that Hexxat is a problem because of her "exotic nature" because I just don't believe there is anything inherently narrative destroying about any of her component parts, even in combination. I do however think that she suffers from a general lack of focus that a less thematically cluttered character wouldn't have had. Of course, good writing could of made up for this.
I don't share the same vitriol that some on the forum have for her. But I do wish she was a more satisfying romance option and character in general.
In no way did I mention that being a lesbian is out of norm. What I said was that defining Hexxat as both vampire and lesbian did not work for me. Since neither aspects of Hexxat were adequately written and shaped in the game. As a consequence of that, I felt like the material written was bordering fan fiction.
One of the main reason why people kept coming back to BG2 is the writing. Good writing holds up for as long as the game exists. Vivid and intriguing characters require good writing. It's also the little bit of random banters that make the overall experience engaging.
If you think that the writing of this game is 'amateur' and is on par with fighting game story lines then obviously you play it for different reasons, which is fine. Although it's popularity and the amount of awards it has won over the years is inconsistent with your claim.
It goes without saying that there are people who are happy with Hexxat and with or without an alternative option to keep Clara. However, there is a significant proportion of people that feel that Hexxat, despite being evil, does not fit well into an evil party as a vampire. This is likely due to the lack of depth and believability of Hexxat as a Vampire NPC.
Let's break it down into three aspects of Hexxat; the vampire, the lesbian and the tribal black woman. All three intersect when it comes to stereotypes, so I've tried my best to separate them.
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The Vampire:
When you cast a black person in the role of an undead being you invite all sort of undesirable comparisons or connotations. Especially when there has been a history in pop culture and western society to fetishize the black woman in particular as the mystical or the exotic.
I brought up the example of the film Vamp earlier to compare with Hexxat. In that film we are told that the vampire Katrina comes from an ancient tribal background but nothing else is elaborated upon, partly because the character is mute and partly because the filmmakers don't care to explore her origins. Instead the role is played by Grace Jones who earlier played the menacing James Bond villain Mayday in A View To A Kill and as a barely dressed amazonian woman in the Conan film series. She was typecast in the 80s to play the exotic menacing black warrior woman.
Then you have another James Bond villain in the portrayal of Mr Big roleplaying Baron Samedi in the film Live and Let Die. You could make a case saying that the villain is using an icon of the Haitian religion in confines of the story to strike fear in his lackeys. But the story was written by a rather bigoted white man about his idea of Haitian culture. Not to mention we are given the impression at the end of Live and Let Die that Mr Big is more than your mere mortal, that somehow he might be undead.
Then you have the origins of the modern zombie coming from West Africa or Haiti. In Haiti there is the belief of a female witch/sorceress having the ability to possess the undead.
There is also an entire genre called Blaxploitation, where black people are placed into certain situation either for novelty value or to be laughed at. One notable example is the film Blackula which has the entire premise of a black vampire going around killing white people.
I could go on but there is a whole history surrounding the vampire or the undead with black culture or representations of black people. When you create a vampire like Hexxat who happens to be black, you have to be incredibly cautious to not fall into any pop culture pitfalls. I really don't see any effort to at least subvert the stereotype of the strong mysterious black vampire aka the Katrina. Maybe I missed it, but there didn't seem much to miss.
It's important to note that western culture has also co-opted Asian and Middle Eastern ideas of the undead to equally comical standards. Probably no coincidence that Hexxat's tomb hopping quest stops her by the asian inspired Kara-Tur setting or the middle eastern inspired Al Qadim setting. You can't remove Kara-Tur and Al Qadim from the Forgotten Realms setting but you can avoid shoehorning them into Hexxat's quest. Seems like it was just an excuse to stop by the more "exotic" regions of the Forgotten Realms just because they are a change of scenery. When really they are their own culture or society that demands they be explored and treated as more than just a fleeting novelty.
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The Lesbian:
This part of her identity leads on from the vampire. The earliest portrayal of the modern vampire in fiction comes from the novel Camilla (it predates Dracula by 25 years). The whole story is pretty much based around the female vampire's attraction to a human woman, and is the archetype of the vampiric lesbian. So the lesbian vampire is arguably the oldest vampire trope. It's important to note that Camilla's lesbian identity is seen to be her central corruptive influence, so having a lesbian vampire isn't the most empowering portrayal of a lesbian NPC.
What is also disappointing from a player's perspective is that the same sex romances in BG2:EE are all with the truly nasty evil NPCs. But not only are they evil NPCs but they are outcasts, perversions of nature. It would have been nice to have a gay or lesbian romanceable NPC that was relatively normal or "neutral". I'm sure there is a sizeable portion of the audience that doesn't want to have a blood soaked foul demonic presence being the only thing compatible with their sexual orientation.
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The Tribal Woman:
It's not offensive to have a NPC that is from a tribal society, but it is certainly disappointing when you claim they are but completely gloss over any sort of customs or beliefs as simply being mysterious. If the mystique of Kara-Tur or Al Qadim can be unveiled, why can't the island of Chult? Having a Chultan NPC is the perfect opportunity for said NPC to share her customs with those who are largely ignorant of such things. Yet by the end of traveling with Hexxat we get that she is from a tribe, had priestess mother gave her up and that in her epilogue she goes back to terrorise her ancestors, almost destroying the central religion of Chult. From what is written of Chult, I find it incredibly difficult to believe that one vampire could manage the destruction of Ubtao's faith.
Especially when the tribe of the Tabaxi isn't just a handful of human tribes but at least 3000 to 5000 in size. Not to mention that they live in a walled city of mazes called Mezro with experience in defeating not only the undead but dinosaurs. I'm not even sure Hexxat could take down a tyrannosaurus rex on her own.
The point being that there are many different facets to a woman from Chult rather than them being simply a tribal woman. She could talk about the giant maze city of Mezro, the giant reptiles that roam, the many tribal goblins or jungle dwarves that feud with the Tabaxi, the shadow god Eshowdow, how she got away from Chult, why she turned to thievery, etc... The most shallow thing you could do with a Chultan NPC is say that they came from a tribe and leave it at that. It gives the impression that what Chult offers is rather simplistic when they are rather advanced, not technologically but socially.
Now let's look at the non-white NPCs of Valygar and Viconia. Valygar is a black man but he has none of the Earth based cliches that hold him back, in the Forgotten Realms he is pretty much like any other male ranger. There's no fetishizing of him being black and there are no racial constraints in how he is expected to act, he's just Valygar. The only thing that holds him back is that he is a victim of rushed content but as a character he is no racial chacature.
With Viconia, she obviously has no Earth based race since she is a drow. However you can say that the difference between her BG1 and BG2 portrait is lightened skin and blonde hair, which could be seen as a way to make her more beautiful from a western perspective (to me she just ends up looking like Smurfette). Instead her character alludes to the struggle of racial equality, but in a way that doesn't draw parallels to any particular Earth based race. That's why she is successful, she taps into a certain aspect of the human struggle but in an everyman sort of way. There's many layers and interpretations to her, however with Hexxat there is only one way to interpret her.
Black women pretty much get the short stick when it comes to being portrayed with diversity in pop culture but even moreso in fantasy. I don't think Hexxat does them many favors in stepping outside the cliche. Viconia despite being a Drow provides a richer representation despite not being explicitly black. You could even argue against Hexxat being from Chult, since Valygar shows that you don't have to be black and come from a tribal background. It would have been smarter if they either embraced Hexxat's Chultan identity 100% without the baggage of being undead or just find another homeland if this is all they wanted to do with it.
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Hexxat might be a change of pace compared to the NPCs currently in BG2 But when you expand the aspects of her identity out to a larger pop culture scale, you find nothing particularly new. In fact you find things that are so deeply rooted in the fantasy stereotypes that it ends up being quite banal. Like it was mentioned above, we are in the year 2014, these sort of portrayals might have flown in the 80s but we should know better. In fact we do know better and that is why we are disappointed with Hexxat, she is just so dated.
I am still happy that they tried. And some degree of representation is better then total erasure (as it can be critiqued at very least). But yes, there certainly are many pitfalls in creating a character like this and unfortunately Hexxat doesn't manage to break the mold.
Video game writing is very amateur. That doesn't mean I don't enjoy it, because schlocky writing can be enjoyable. But by the metrics I use to define good writing, and the metrics most people use to define "good writing", it's not very good. Of course, those metrics are subjective, as all critique of art is subjective. But by the same token that I can say American Beauty is a "better" movie than Street Fighter, even though I enjoyed both, Baldur's Gate simply isn't that well written. It's full of cliches, the characters rarely rise beyond archetypes, there's numerous plot holes (and even more places where you're railroaded through things that logically the characters could and even should have handled differently), and so on and so forth.
And yeah, it is about on par with many fighting game storylines. Note I said I enjoyed them. I enjoy Baldur's Gate, too. But in neither case do I think it's a great miscarriage of justice that traditional awards aren't recognising their brilliance. And in neither case would I count them among the best storylines I've ever read, in video games or elsewhere.
If you do, that's fine! As I said, writing is subjective. I admittedly can't think much of your taste for thinking THAT highly of Baldur's Gate's writing, but I also don't think much of the taste of people who think Game of Thrones is the greatest tv show ever. I enjoy both of them, however (well, except when GoT pisses me off, which is admittedly kind of often).
The reason I no longer wish to discuss anything with you is because you evidently have a lack of even the most basic of comprehension skills.
What part of: "But because she is official content, people are defending - Wait.. No. They're not. Finally. You know an NPC is truly horrible when no one likes her and notices the writing/character development simply sucks. And when the other half are calling for Clara over Hexxat. "
Has ANYTHING to do with: "As a man, I can safely say that I don't really understand women. And I certainly don't understand women who want nothing to do with either my or anyone's else's cock."
I see you are berating other posters for saying things about her being a lesbian but you are the one bringing it up even where it wasn't present. I never once mentioned her sexuality. I mentioned the poor quality of the romance. So why bring it up? Making a straw man argument is not any way to approach a discussion, and it just pisses people off. Like me for example, where I am no longer willing to discuss anything with your type of ilk ever again.
Now, a lesbian vampire IS borderline fanfiction. There's so many examples in pop culture about this, and the idea is extremely popular among young teenage girls. If you haven't noticed it you must be living under a rock, your mum's basement, or somewhere far removed from western society. Regardless, whether you agree with it or not is irrelevant because this particular thing does not need your approval to be true. It is very true. Moreover, being a lesbian is normal, yes. But being a lesbian also puts her into a niche character (because being a lesbian isn't a 50/50 split between women. It is not that common.) Thus, as well as being from Chult, a vampire and a lesbian puts her in three separate niches. It's overboard.
As for the quality of writing is subjective, yes, it is. But any monkey can see that the writing from the old Bioware was far, far superior to the writing of what Beamdog has produced. Furthermore, I think the writing of the BG series is of a very good standard and high quality. I don't know what you're comparing it to in order to call it "schlocky" or write it off as "video game writing, amateur" etc.
Oh, and this has got to be the latest in the list of the stupidest things I've read from you:
"For 15 years ago, the writing was great, if you put aside Planescape Torment and a vanishingly few other examples. It's not 15 years ago."
Shakespeare must be crying. His 15 years are long over.
This is pretty much the only thing I can contribute to a thread that has clearly gone down the drain. Name calling is for kids, and Edwin showed a lack of respect by doing so, so a jailing wasn't unheard of in this situation. However, how in the world is instigating by saying things like: and in any way better?
Pretty much:
1. For the record, disliking a single fictional lesbian character does not equate to disliking all gays/lesbians, be they real or fictional
2. Unfortunately there are quite a few backward people who actually DO dislike gays/lesbians, and unfortunately make having a real discussion about these characters next to impossible
3. This is not an excuse to paint everyone who disagrees with you about a character who is gay/black/belonging to some other historically victimized group as a bigot. This is a poor way to try to attain the "moral high ground. I mean its really sad that someone like @jackjack who I've never seen have problems with anyobdy felt the need to say as if he needs to justify his opinions and prove that he's not a jerk
4. A gay/lesbian romance actually is something to be discussed, and actually does make Hexxat different/unique. To say otherwise is to imply that Aerie, who has a romance, is somehow no different as a character than Mazzy, who does not. I dunno why "unique" somehow interpreted as "bad" by some people.
5. The main problem with Hexxat being a lesbian is that she is a *Evil* *Vampire* lesbian. The two same-sex relationships in the game are with a serial killer and a sociopath. It would be nice to see a homosexual relationship that was handled with the same dignity as other relationships in the game. Steamy conversations between Hexxat and Viconia that seem like they were pulled out of some sort of exploitation film does not accomplish this. It is ironic for someone to defend this portrayal and somehow claim that people who criticize it are bigoted.
Having a same sex relationship in a game just to have have a same sex relationship in a game does not appeal to many people, including myself. A well written same-sex relationship with a non-sociopathic character might. That is what is the problem here.
Thanks to @booinyoureyes for doing what no one else seems to and standing up for the truth.
The rules should be changed on these boards to complaint-based. If someone has a problem, they report it, and the mods then investigate. As it stands now, the mods peruse these boards picking who they want to ban/warn, and I happen to be the most obvious scapegoat. I remember another thread where myself and another user were heatedly debating a topic. No one was being rude or name-calling, and a mod stepped in and warned us to "calm down." When I prompted the mod, asking them when did a heated debate require a warning, the mod didn't reply. This is censorship, babysitting, not moderating.
And I am being personally targeted, it seems. I'm sick of it.
As for not "answering" me, I suspect it is because you have absolutely nothing to say to my arguments that completely destroyed you and your viewpoint.
Thanks for stopping by.
Well said. It's a shame that honest discussion about a character gets swamped down in political correctness just because that character is of an earthly minority.
The reason you were warned is the same reason you were warned the first two times; don't pretend to be surprised when you face consequences for repeatedly breaking the same rule.
That said, there are plenty of things to criticize Hexxat for. I remember creating a character in my D&D group, and my DM pulling me aside to tell me that I had loaded too many dimensions onto her. Not that a character couldn't be multidimensional, but when several of those dimensions happen to be tropes it stops feeling like depth of character and starts feeling like lazy writing.
So the criticism here isn't that Hexxat is a lesbian, but that her lesbianism appears to be a trope, further emphasized by her being a vampire, further emphasized by her being a person of color. So even ignoring the writing (which I would argue is better than a lot of people here seem to be suggesting), the skeleton of the character comes off as a bit of a Mary Sue, which is understandable. Not much we can do about that at this point, but it's worthwhile information to have.
(Having said that, I still think her story is worthwhile; she's a vampire, but if you play through her story she's not your typical "Im in ur party drinkin' ur blood" vampire; there's a depth to her that goes beyond the buzzwords, but you have to try to see beyond the tropes to get there.)
Clara is a bit of a problem as well; she shows up, joins your party, demands that you do her quest immediately, and then immediately dies and is replaced by someone else. So rather than the moment of her death being imbued with the sadness of losing someone you care about or the anger of watching her die, you're left with a question about what might have been, could you have saved her, etc. Again there's not much we can do about it at this point, but the criticism is understandable.
The reason the "Clara DLC" threads tend to be closed has less to do with anti-LGBT sentiments, although that does occasionally factor into it; more often than not the thread descends into personal attacks and flaming. People have very strong opinions about these characters, which can only ever be a good thing, and when those opinions oppose each other the result is sometimes less than pleasant. That has been the case in this thread as well.
So. How do we proceed? Do we just put a ban on all discussions relating to Clara and Hexxat? That seems counterintuitive, given that we created these characters, and we want people to talk about them. But I do need to require that when people talk about them, and when the inevitable opposing opinions arise, people keep following the site rules.
Personal attacks like the ones expressed by @Cyteen, @Ayiekie, @Disgruntler, and others are not okay, they have never been okay, they will never be okay. Find another way to disagree, one that doesn't involve insulting or assaulting the other person's integrity.
Thread closed.