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The tragedy of Hexxat.

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  • DisgruntlerDisgruntler Member Posts: 100
    @Ayiekie
    Special compared to the other NPCs in the made up fantasy world of Faerun, of course. Even if the game were set in contemporary western society, a lesbian is still unusual purely from a numbers perspective. In that sense lesbians will always remain special.

    Minscs racial enemy is vampire. That's hardly not caring about vampires. Even with his mental problems, Minsc should be an expert on vampires in BG2.

    My point is, all these things aren't game breaking by itself. It's believable that there is a vampire out there that Minsc does not want to kill. It's likely that people from Chult (sic?) are living in Athkatla and it's a given that about 1-2% of the people are lesbian. All these things applying to the same person however are very, very unlikely and immersion breaking. Especially if unique items come into play that smooth out the downsides of these rare conditions.
    Like a cloak which allows a vampire to move in sunlight.

    QuartzElrandir
  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,680
    edited December 2013
    People see what they want to see. I quote an fact of the forum, you call that my argument, you discard it as subjective.

    You take my phrase "proof more than enough" as "sole proof of the fact".
    Ayiekie said:



    Actually, your conclusion also only follows from your premise if you can demonstrate that everyone on the forum feels this way (they didn't), and that the forum is representative of all purchasers of the game (this has not been shown). But I chose to focus on the logical link you yourself made, no matter how much you're now trying to deny that you made it.


    So i said everyone now? Do i have to had 100% of support to raise an statement in this forum? To me this feel very likely a fallacy, not my intent to offend you but that's a truth.
    Ayiekie said:



    Actually, your conclusion also only follows from your premise if you can demonstrate that everyone on the forum feels this way (they didn't), and that the forum is representative of all purchasers of the game (this has not been shown). But I chose to focus on the logical link you yourself made, no matter how much you're now trying to deny that you made it.

    Can you see how insane is to interpret what i said when i'm here explaining it? Can't you feel the arrogance in your words trying to determine what i said and what i don't said?


    Be free to believe in what you want however, cos you don't need my permission to be blind, that's a freedom our society grant to every citizen of any democratic society.

  • AyiekieAyiekie Member Posts: 792

    @Ayiekie
    Special compared to the other NPCs in the made up fantasy world of Faerun, of course. Even if the game were set in contemporary western society, a lesbian is still unusual purely from a numbers perspective. In that sense lesbians will always remain special.

    Nalia's also special because she's a noblewoman. Mazzy's special for being a halfling, Viconia's a drow. Aerie's an... you get the idea, right? Don't get me wrong, I'm not casting aspersions at you for saying it, I'm actually just saying "it's not something that should automatically deserve comment in a character anymore".


    Minscs racial enemy is vampire. That's hardly not caring about vampires. Even with his mental problems, Minsc should be an expert on vampires in BG2.

    So... is he? Canonically, does Minsc ever show special expertise on vampires, or a particular hatred towards vampires that is unusual for his alignment? Because I kind of think he doesn't, and that that was on his character sheet primarily as a gameplay aid and not because it was part of his personality.

    All these things applying to the same person however are very, very unlikely and immersion breaking. Especially if unique items come into play that smooth out the downsides of these rare conditions.
    Like a cloak which allows a vampire to move in sunlight.

    What you consider immersion-breaking is of course your choice, and I won't fault you for that. Though I disagree, and would argue the same applies to the numerous other oddballs that join your party.

    As for the cloak, though, that doesn't bother me because otherwise it would be too annoying to have a vampire in the party. The game engine does not allow a sensible way to deal with this (such as the party mostly adventuring in the evening, and Hexxat joining them then or in underground dungeons when the time is irrelevant), so the cloak is a perfectly acceptable solution. It's a little convenient, but the backstory is reasonable, and gameplay > plausibility.

    And again, Viconia has a very similar issue that the game just ignores... so how is that any better?

  • AyiekieAyiekie Member Posts: 792
    kamuizin said:

    People see what they want to see. I quote an fact of the forum, you call that my argument, you discard it as subjective.

    You take my phrase "proof more than enough" as "sole proof of the fact".

    I get that English probably isn't your first language, but "proof more than enough" actually does mean "that is the sole proof necessary to demonstrate this fact".

    That's even more so when it's the only evidence you offer to demonstrate your "fact".
    kamuizin said:


    So i said everyone now?

    No, and I never said you did. But your argument requires there to be a considerable majority, if not necessarily literally everyone, to feel the same way. This is self-evident: if only a loud but tiny minority feel that way, it obviously does not "prove the failure" of the character.
    kamuizin said:


    Can you see how insane is to interpret what i said when i'm here explaining it? Can't you feel the arrogance in your words trying to determine what i said and what i don't said?

    You said what you said. I can read what you said and interpret what you mean. So can anyone else. That is in fact a necessary part of reading and responding to every message on this board, or any board. It is exactly what you're doing when you said "So i said everyone now?" above, when I did not in fact say you said anything of the sort (so I guess you're also insane and arrogant, right?).

    You saying what you meant does not change what you said. You could have misspoken or unintentionally expressed something you didn't mean (although I doubt it, since you're completely unwilling to admit making any error). It is also possible you have retroactively changed your mind on what you said, either unwittingly or because you are reluctant to admit having been incorrect.
    kamuizin said:


    Be free to believe in what you want however, cos you don't need my permission to be blind, that's a freedom our society grant to every citizen of any democratic society.

    I rather doubt we live in the same society, actually.

    Tarnfara
  • DisgruntlerDisgruntler Member Posts: 100
    Ayiekie said:



    Nalia's also special because she's a noblewoman. Mazzy's special for being a halfling, Viconia's a drow. Aerie's an... you get the idea, right? Don't get me wrong, I'm not casting aspersions at you for saying it, I'm actually just saying "it's not something that should automatically deserve comment in a character anymore".

    Alone it wouldn't. In your examples you'll notice that those are the only big, eye catching things about those characters. Hexxat has a bunch. Her character is drowning in buzzwords.
    If you strip away her vampirism and lesbianism then what remains of her character? Nothing memorable.
    Ayiekie said:


    So... is he? Canonically, does Minsc ever show special expertise on vampires, or a particular hatred towards vampires that is unusual for his alignment? Because I kind of think he doesn't, and that that was on his character sheet primarily as a gameplay aid and not because it was part of his personality.

    That's too vague. We have to take his character sheet at face value in this point instead of guessing whether he hates vampires unusually strong compared to others of his alignment.
    Ayiekie said:


    As for the cloak, though, that doesn't bother me because otherwise it would be too annoying to have a vampire in the party. The game engine does not allow a sensible way to deal with this (such as the party mostly adventuring in the evening, and Hexxat joining them then or in underground dungeons when the time is irrelevant), so the cloak is a perfectly acceptable solution. It's a little convenient, but the backstory is reasonable, and gameplay > plausibility.

    That there even was a need to make two items to make it feasible to have a vampire become an adventurer is telling about how bad a vampire fits as a NPC.
    Ayiekie said:


    And again, Viconia has a very similar issue that the game just ignores... so how is that any better?

    She's been living on the surface for years.

    ElrandirMortianna
  • AyiekieAyiekie Member Posts: 792


    Alone it wouldn't. In your examples you'll notice that those are the only big, eye catching things about those characters. Hexxat has a bunch. Her character is drowning in buzzwords.

    No they aren't. Viconia serves a special goddess instead of Lolth, is an outcast from her society, and doesn't actually partake in most "typical" drow viewpoints. Mazzy has special pseudo-paladin powers. I could go on, if you like. "Special and unique snowflake" is more the rule than the exception in Baldur's Gate NPCs.


    If you strip away her vampirism and lesbianism then what remains of her character? Nothing memorable.

    I disagree. That's entirely a subjective point.

    That's too vague. We have to take his character sheet at face value in this point instead of guessing whether he hates vampires unusually strong compared to others of his alignment.

    You deal with vampires in the game. Numerous times. If Minsc doesn't demonstrate any of that then, then I question why he should have to demonstrate it with Hexxat.

    Frankly, it's not even that implausible that Minsc is too stupid to realise Hexxat is a vampire. She's not pale and doesn't bare fangs and try to rip out his throat all the time = not vampire!


    That there even was a need to make two items to make it feasible to have a vampire become an adventurer is telling about how bad a vampire fits as a NPC.

    Special unique items for special unique snowflake NPCs is not a phenomenon limited to Hexxat, or to the EE NPCs in general.

    And again, the only reason it's necessary is due to the abstraction of the game engine. It would not be overly difficult for a PNP roleplaying group to work around her being a vampire.

    She's been living on the surface for years.

    Don't believe that gets rid of drow vulnerability to sunlight. Also, it SHOULD mean her magic resistance is gone... which it isn't. Why doesn't that bother you?

  • jackjackjackjack Member Posts: 3,248
    The MR thing has always bothered me.

  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239
    edited December 2013

    @Ayiekie
    Special compared to the other NPCs in the made up fantasy world of Faerun, of course.

    More special than a dark elf priestess of a Shadow Goddess from an underground matriarchal society? More special than a bard from another dimension who's half-human and half-demon? More special than the halfling Fighter with paladin powers, or that one Bhaalspawn who breaks the "no resurrection" rule not once but twice?

    If you take off the nostalgia blinkers, you'll see that practically every NPC in BG2 breaks the mold in one way or another. That's not an argument that holds water.

    AyiekieEudaemonium
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,142
    @jackjack are you against power gaming?
    Also, here I will explain the REAL tragedy of Hexxat.

    Ruffian- Attacks Hexxat
    Ruffian- 20 - 5 = 15 : Hit
    Ruffian did 23 damage to Hexxat (Hexxat has now only 7 Hit Points)
    Edwin- Casts Fireball : Ruffian
    Edwin did 34 damage to Ruffian
    Edwin did 21 damage to Ruffian
    Edwin did 28 damage to Hexxat
    Hexxat- Death
    And she cannot be woke up, as she perma-died.

    jackjackElrandir
  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239
    @CrevsDaak: And what do we learn from this? Fireballs kill people. Don't use Fireballs. :)

    CrevsDaakShadowdemon
  • stormy35stormy35 Member Posts: 39
    The fact that a large group of players petitioning for a recruitable Clara immediately after the release of the game does suggest to me that a significant percentage of players are not satisfied with the implementation of the quest and/or Hexxat herself. You didn't see people screaming for the resurrection of Xzar in Jaheira's quest line.

  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,142
    @shawne it seems that you do not get the ironic, evil and twisted part of my post :P, Edwin casted the Fireballand Hexxat died, forever :P, evil jokes made by evil people, nothin' new.

  • CoutelierCoutelier Member Posts: 1,250
    Minsc might not care about Hexxat on her own, but he does care about Aerie who is his witch. Once Hex goes admitting to her that she sneaks off and murders innocent people to survive, then every character in the party has to know or they're made to look dumb and weak. Evil characters might not care too much, but Imoen, Nalia, Jaheira, Cernd... That's my only problem with Hexxat; even if you get over the initial meeting, her interactions with those other characters I mentioned are just off. A lot of it is just because of that admission to Aerie, but Imoen should be far less trusting of a vampire in any case (I'd be surprised if the books she's read have mentioned Duergar, but not Vampires.)

    booinyoureyesFoggy
  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239
    edited December 2013
    @stormy35: If we were to take every request to change a character's fate as proof that the original concept failed, you'd have to toss the whole game. Even casual Google searches reveal that people have asked to save Xzar, Montaron, Khalid, Dynaheir, Yoshimo, Tiax, Ajantis... every character has their fans, and BG2 is highly moddable, and that's all there is to it.

    @Coutelier: Imoen's not really a good barometer of anything, given that she has zero conflicts with any character (and, in the original game, probably ended up in Evil parties by default). And there are already quite a few characters who realistically take issue with Hexxat: Anomen, Mazzy, Keldorn and Aerie will come into conflict with her (I think Minsc is being added to that list in the next patch). Jaheira and Cernd are True Neutral, which at least suggests they're willing to tolerate a vampire in the party so long as that vampire furthers their greater goal of serving Balance (mechanically, neither of these characters have any conflict with Evil NPCs in general, even though you'd think Jaheira would have issues with Sarevok's presence).

  • nanonano Member Posts: 1,632
    stormy35 said:

    You didn't see people screaming for the resurrection of Xzar in Jaheira's quest line.

    Actually I found that bit to be monumentally stupid and even worse than the Clara thing, because it was entirely unnecessary. He was standing right there outside the hold the entire time! I've complained about it before but as old content it's been said many times already.

    ThrasymachusjackjackbooinyoureyesQuartz
  • AyiekieAyiekie Member Posts: 792
    stormy35 said:

    The fact that a large group of players petitioning for a recruitable Clara immediately after the release of the game does suggest to me that a significant percentage of players are not satisfied with the implementation of the quest and/or Hexxat herself. You didn't see people screaming for the resurrection of Xzar in Jaheira's quest line.

    1) Plenty of people are pissed off about what happened to Xzar.

    2) Wanting recruitable Clara != dissatisfaction with Hexxat. They are different characters.

  • nanonano Member Posts: 1,632
    CrevsDaak said:

    @jackjack are you against power gaming?
    Also, here I will explain the REAL tragedy of Hexxat.

    Ruffian- Attacks Hexxat
    Ruffian- 20 - 5 = 15 : Hit
    Ruffian did 23 damage to Hexxat (Hexxat has now only 7 Hit Points)
    Edwin- Casts Fireball : Ruffian
    Edwin did 34 damage to Ruffian
    Edwin did 21 damage to Ruffian
    Edwin did 28 damage to Hexxat
    Hexxat- Death
    And she cannot be woke up, as she perma-died.

    For me it's more like

    Firkraag- Attacks Hexxat
    Firkraag- 15 + 12 = 27 : Hit
    Firkraag did 30 damage to Hexxat (Hexxat has 1 hit point)
    Firkraag- 13 + 12 = 25 : Hit
    Firkraag did 42 damage to Hexxat (Hexxat has 1 hit point)
    Firkraag- 16 + 12 = 28 : Hit
    Firkraag did 37 damage to Hexxat (Hexxat has 1 hit point)

    CrevsDaak
  • CoutelierCoutelier Member Posts: 1,250
    edited December 2013
    @Coutelier: Imoen's not really a good barometer of anything, given that she has zero conflicts with any character (and, in the original game, probably ended up in Evil parties by default). And there are already quite a few characters who realistically take issue with Hexxat: Anomen, Mazzy, Keldorn and Aerie will come into conflict with her (I think Minsc is being added to that list in the next patch). Jaheira and Cernd are True Neutral, which at least suggests they're willing to tolerate a vampire in the party so long as that vampire furthers their greater goal of serving Balance (mechanically, neither of these characters have any conflict with Evil NPCs in general, even though you'd think Jaheira would have issues with Sarevok's presence).
    Imoen is lacking conflicts or interactions with characters in the original game, as she was originally supposed to be killed off so none were written, at least until ToB. That's no reason not to think of how she would realistically react to characters now. So does act suspiciously around Viconia, and obviously doesn't like Dorn, both of whom she knows better than Hexxat. But I think to a druid, a vampire is the ultimate in unnatural presences. And I really can't see Jaheira being okay with someone in her group sneaking off and killing commoners and villagers.

    Personally, I would just change or remove the conflict with Aerie (it's out of character to suddenly attack a party member anyway, after so long, and especially without talking to CHARNAME about it first), as that solves most these issues, and as you say she does have plenty of conflicts already. It can be left to the players imagination how Hexxat finds her sustenance.

  • DisgruntlerDisgruntler Member Posts: 100
    shawne said:

    @Ayiekie
    Special compared to the other NPCs in the made up fantasy world of Faerun, of course.

    If you take off the nostalgia blinkers, you'll see that practically every NPC in BG2 breaks the mold in one way or another. That's not an argument that holds water.
    Let me elaborate. Hexxats sexuality is special compared to the sexuality of the other NPCs, joinable or otherwise, in the made up fantasy world of Faerun.
    Which would be just something unusual about her character if it were the only thing unusual. Coupled with her other exotic qualities however leads me to my original point.

    "Hexxat is just too special. She is from an exotic country, a lesbian, a vampire who doesn't get killed by Minsc on sight and who has not one, but two unique items that circumvent vampiric weaknesses."

    That's a whole lot of "DM discretion required". It's also incredible front loaded. While Viconia or Haer'Dalis are also highly unusual, those characters unfold over hours or even days of playing. What I wrote about Hexxat is mostly known before she even joins the party.
    Some people don't mind, some like her and many dislike her.
    Ayiekie said:


    Frankly, it's not even that implausible that Minsc is too stupid to realise Hexxat is a vampire. She's not pale and doesn't bare fangs and try to rip out his throat all the time = not vampire!

    You haven't played with Hexxat and Minsc in your group yet. You should do that. I cringed as Hexxat solved her problem with Minsc very easily.* It's a big game and it takes a long time to try out all combinations and hear all party banter.
    He, maybe you turn from Saulus to Edwin.

    *The solution is also railroading the player into siding with Hexxat over Minsc without the player knowing. The game basically assumes that you tell Hexxat about Minscs hamster in detail, which she then uses to convince him that she's harmless. But I as a player never did something like that and the inter party conflict never even came up before that banter.
    I honestly thought my game bugged out and I missed a lot of arguments, like Edwin/Jaheira or Keldorn/Viconia.

    @stormy35

    Yeah, I think it's safe to say that most people dislike Hexxat.

    QuartzElrandir
  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239
    Coutelier said:

    Imoen is lacking conflicts or interactions with characters in the original game, as she was originally supposed to be killed off so none were written, at least until ToB. That's no reason not to think of how she would realistically react to characters now.

    How is that relevant to the discussion, though? You can speculate about what Imoen might have done until the forum crashes; for all that her character design is more the result of rushed development than deliberate artistic choices, at this point she is who she is: a Neutral Good character who gets along swimmingly in an Evil party and (at least originally) doesn't leave if your party reaches low Reputation.
    Coutelier said:

    But I think to a druid, a vampire is the ultimate in unnatural presences. And I really can't see Jaheira being okay with someone in her group sneaking off and killing commoners and villagers.

    Jaheira doesn't seem to mind working for Bodhi in chapter 2, though, which you'd think would be more of a problem with her - at least Hexxat is actively helping the Bhaalspawn, whereas Bodhi isn't nearly as trustworthy. As far as I know, Jaheira's only "breaking point" in the entire game comes if you attack Drizzt and his companions.
    Coutelier said:

    It can be left to the players imagination how Hexxat finds her sustenance.

    Not really seeing the problem with assuming that she's feeding off the many, many, many bodies you leave in your wake...

  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239

    Let me elaborate. Hexxats sexuality is special compared to the sexuality of the other NPCs, joinable or otherwise, in the made up fantasy world of Faerun.

    No. No, no, no. You do not get to make that argument in 2014.

    Do you understand that non-heteronormative characters just plain didn't exist in mainstream video games until fairly recently? The original game - like most D&D fiction - is exclusionary to a ridiculous extent because that's how things were done fifteen years ago. That does not mean steps can't be taken to add the tiniest bit of diversity.

    I mean, geez, Hexxat is also the only other black person in BG2 besides Valygar. Does that make her "exotic" too? Should they have changed that?

    jackjackAyiekie
  • DisgruntlerDisgruntler Member Posts: 100
    edited December 2013
    shawne said:

    Let me elaborate. Hexxats sexuality is special compared to the sexuality of the other NPCs, joinable or otherwise, in the made up fantasy world of Faerun.

    No. No, no, no. You do not get to make that argument in 2014.

    Do you understand that non-heteronormative characters just plain didn't exist in mainstream video games until fairly recently? The original game - like most D&D fiction - is exclusionary to a ridiculous extent because that's how things were done fifteen years ago. That does not mean steps can't be taken to add the tiniest bit of diversity.
    Any NPC in BG is first of all a NPC in BG. This means that the quality of that NPC is dependant to a large part on how natural the NPC feels as a part of the game world of BG. Whether or not notions of political correctness play into the specifics of the NPC isn't important for its quality. A good NPC has to stand on its own within the constraints of the already established setting of the game.
    Hexxat does not. Hexxat is what many people call a 'special snowflake'. Not because she is from Chult or a vampire or a lesbian, or because she has rule breaking items. I consider her to be badly written because she is a vampire AND from Chult AND a lesbian AND has a cloak covering her vampire weakness AND has a bag of holding covering another of her vampire weaknesses. Plus her further dialogue makes no attempt to alleviate any of that. She was written to be mysterious and distanced, only giving short answers. Which only serves to make her shallow, because she gives no real answer to any question. The player learns nothing about her past or her character through her dialogue.
    Viconia for example gives the player the story how she came to be on the surface and why.

    Do you really think I believe Hexxat to be badly written because she wants to bangnailrut women? I want to do the same, I'd be an idiot to fault her for that.

    stormy35Elrandirleeux
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,142
    @nano I never used Hexxat, I was making a biased joke.

  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,142
    edited December 2013
    shawne said:


    I mean, geez, Hexxat is also the only other black person in BG2 besides Valygar. Does that make her "exotic" too? Should they have changed that?

    And Dynaheir.
    EDIT: you've said BG2 *facepalms*

  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239

    Hexxat does not. Hexxat is what many people call a 'special snowflake'. Not because she is from Chult or a vampire or a lesbian, or because she has rule breaking items. I consider her to be badly written because she is a vampire AND from Chult AND a lesbian AND has a cloak covering her vampire weakness AND has a bag of holding covering another of her vampire weaknesses.

    I'll say it again: you can describe every single character in BG2 this way.

    Edwin is from Thay and has the highest INT in the game and has a special amulet that gives him more spells than he's legally supposed to have.

    Minsc is from Rashemen and he has a super-special pet who may or may not be a Giant Space Hamster and he's a Ranger who can Rage.

    Haer'Dalis is from another dimension and he's a tiefling and he's the only NPC who romances another party member and he's the only bard in the game.

    If you want to keep indulging your bias by imagining that the original characters weren't written to be unique in exactly the same way as Hexxat, go ahead. Just drop the "special snowflake" nonsense because you're conflating a lot of things that are not what you claim they are.

    AyiekieTarnfara
  • nanonano Member Posts: 1,632
    @CrevsDaak Yup, just my own little joke about how much she bugs out and turns invincible ;)

    I haven't finished her story because it's a bother to fix all the time. I guess I could stop getting her killed but it's just too fun :D

    CrevsDaak
  • stormy35stormy35 Member Posts: 39
    Ayiekie said:

    stormy35 said:

    The fact that a large group of players petitioning for a recruitable Clara immediately after the release of the game does suggest to me that a significant percentage of players are not satisfied with the implementation of the quest and/or Hexxat herself. You didn't see people screaming for the resurrection of Xzar in Jaheira's quest line.

    1) Plenty of people are pissed off about what happened to Xzar.

    2) Wanting recruitable Clara != dissatisfaction with Hexxat. They are different characters.

    No doubt people have requested for Xzar to be saved but not at the expense of Jaheira.

    I disagree with the notion that they are different characters. The developer obviously intended for them to be mutually exclusive because they have the same class/alignment/stats. In that sense, Clara is just the identical half of the same character for the purpose of story transition.

    Obviously it makes no sense to have both NPCs in a party unless Clara could be further developed into an unique individual, not just a mind-controlled puppet, and with roles not overlapped with Hexxat.

    From what I can gather in the forum posts is that a good proportion of players would rather prefer Clara in her current state than Hexxat. This indirectly reflects the poor quality in the writing and implementation of Hexxat. If you actually stop being so defensive about Hexxat in a obsessive-compulsive way, you would understand that most of the issues brought up by numerous people are valid arguments. The superficial implementation of vamprism, the background development (as you mentioned it yourself that she spent all of her vampiric life in isolation in a coffin implicating that she is just a vampire fledgling yet she dealt with someone like L - it just does not make any sense), the short no longer than 5-6 word writing style all pretty much contributed to the failure to engage the players.

    Disgruntler
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,142
    @nano leaving her at 1 HP all the time, better tank than Sarevok, with her 20 STR.... Oh god, I never thought they could include a so powergamerish NPC.

    nano
  • nanonano Member Posts: 1,632
    @CrevsDaak Mistform Hexxat's amulet, even more overpowered than Imoen's belt :O
    I haven't found anything that will kill her in that state. Even mind flayers can't hurt her...

    CrevsDaak
This discussion has been closed.