@jolanthus hmmmm, are you sure? there are shadow druids and i seem to recall a pnp campaign where a char played a neutral good druid. she was married to the GM though, irl.
but if that's the case, then yeah, will need to make an effort to slaughter them all. Can give the game a pokemon feeling to it.
Kill them, kill them, gotta kill them all, GOTTA KILL EM ALL, damn druids....
surly edwin will assisst me on this most noble goal.
Yeah the True Neutrality of Druids always seemed difficult to play for me. Knowing that both good and evil are necessary in the world the requirement to actively work against good to prevent "good" from taking over sort of seems like an evil act.....and vice versa.....and honestly it feels to me like Id end up just never doing anything for fear of tipping the scales
damn a lot of things. Let's see some stupid wizard and elf from the game world that only geeks of DnD would know about not someone who just wants to play a good rpg. These characters serve no purpose in the game and have no value what's so ever in the story. Sort of Pathetic they were put in the game. Nerds only? can't remember enough of the game since it was 12 years ago or so that I played BG. it will come to me.
ahh I remember some guy that keeps coming up to you and saying Hey Ya repeatedly that was pretty retarded too. can't remember anything more.
@immagikman That's the problem with neutrals, if there is evil, you go out and bring about good, but if there is good, you go out and bring about evil. I remember a book 'villains by necessity' that at least gave a semi plausable reason (if things got too far out of balance, the earth would explode). But neutral to me seems that if i'm going out and doing good things, my neutral party members will try to sabotage my actions to bring about 'the balance'.
i'd rather have good or evil, you know what to expect from them. neutral at best seems wishy-washy.
The problem I always had with neutrality is that I don't believe it truly exists. I can see how you can be neutral in the law-chaos axis or the good-evil axis, but completly neutral? Doing good when there's too much evil and doing evil when there's too much good?
I completely breaks any believability, a reason in my tables, druids have been neutral good or neutra evil since the beginning.
The only creatures i can see as being completly neutral are some of the extraplanars as they would have a completly nonhumanoid mindset.
true neutral is based on the fact that you have no morals, you are an animal, you live to survive by doing whatever instinct tells you, now that isnt based on the fact that if you have no morals you dont just go off and kill everything in sight, you just live purely on instinct, i would say that the amazons of the rain forest, those people would be true neutral, because basically they live purely based on instinct, they only kill animals for food/tools/clothing and live life basically as possible, because politics and industry is more lawful and chaotic based and thingsl ike that can cause greed and such making people evil and then there are people out there you fight for good ( say police and such) but in the rain foresst there is none of that stuff, and basically that is how druids would work, its not a fact of not being good or evil, and if they were with a party per say, they wouldnt turn their back on them if they were getting out of control with their alignment, they would just be indifferent, basically as long as you leave nature along a druid probally doesnt really care about your existance, and if they are with a party, their mind set is probally: kill or be killed sort of thing, now thats not to say they are going to go out of their way to kill monsters/people for no reason, but more of like being a guard dog is what a druid in a party would be like, indifferent to the world and does as it's master tells them, they dont know the difference of good and evil, and say a druid that has only lived in the forest all it's life probally wouldnt know either, and plus the xzart thing, i think the main problem with them is, at low levels you fight lots of them, and it takes forever because your team's to hit is poop and attacks are so low, but with the ToB engine hopefully that speeds the game up a bit to kill them off faster, and i think that little xzart camp, it just that, even if you kill them all off they still find a way to come attack you in groups randomly anyway, im pretty sure i've seen them in the cloakwood forest every once in a blue moon, and what about the 2 areas that have the gibberling hordes? the very south east map area and in larswood i beleve by that little tower, there are tons of gibberlings by those areas
But see, most of the druid's i've known (and possibly the people i were playing with) were always more about forcing the issue of balance. It wasn't instinct, but more along the lines of forcing balance even upon the creatures of the forest. Maybe because of my background in pnp, whe i saw the harper hold in SoA, i knew it to be an evil place. I noticed a few lines that suggested that they were deep in the politics of the city, but after you post, i could see it as just being deep into the politics for the sake of trying to keep balance, along the line of druids are the forum equivalent of admins.
Doesn't change my feelings on the subject though as i still have a deep history in distrusting neutral chars. Death to ALL ADMI....errr, DRUIDS!!!!!
i think most of the "balance" thing is that most people dont know how to be true neutral in real life and so they need something to go on, and forcing balance is the way they see it, but "forcing" balance can be a chaotic thing because forcing balance can easily be something that breaks rules and regulations and be very fanatical which is chaotic, now in real life i would almost consider myself as true neutral but im more on the lawful neutral scale only because i love making money, and having laws and regulations in the money world is most needed, but other than that, im completely indifferent towards everything else, i could easily be friends with someone that is good, or with someone that is evil, doesnt bother my bunions none, and if they go completely out of control with their motives i guess i will call it ( horrendously evil/ good acts) then i just walk away, but even in general a neutral person will want to be with a someone who is good rather than evil, just for the sake that its much easier to get along with someone that is good over evil, now it could be that maybe i might even be neutral good sometimes, because i dont do anything evil ( too much effort and no reward for it in real life) but i think i lean way more towards the neutral side just for the fact that i could really care less what people do with their lives, as long as they keep their nonsense out of my business then i say give 'er gas
... i could easily be friends with someone that is good, or with someone that is evil, doesnt bother my bunions none, ...
This comment makes me believe you have lived a very sheltered existence. Having been around the world a time or three, I have never once met a person who "wants" to live, work or be near evil people.
@immagikman well, you're forgetting opportunists, as evil people typically are either in prison, or in powerful positions. Sadly, the company i work at, i'm loved by the workers, hated by the managers because i fight back against the greed and corruption and lies from the managers. The employees like me because all the managers have been trying to get rid of me for years and it takes alot of focus off of them.
@Bjjorick Even Opportunists and Evangelists do not willingly spend time hanging around the really bad people of the world...oh sure you may try to get them a message of love but you would not expose your children or those you were responsible for....well if you did you would be negligent and irresponsible, or might as an opportunist see an opportunity to advance your station by currying favor with said evil in which case you also would be guilty of evil, perhaps even greater evil than said evil person......and even then you would sleep with one eye open for fear of being killed, raped or tortured in some fashion. Most people in Western Societies do not comprehend what it is like to live 24x7 in the presence of evil...because we have been pampered too long. Errrk not trying to lecture, it just freaks me out that people can say such things as "I dont care if Im around evil people" to me it shows a serious disconnect from reality. (oh and in some parts of the world the EVIL is roaming free and unfettered.....Darfur for one but not the only place by far)
@immagikman no man, i enjoyed it alot and agree completely. When i went to the philippines (which isn't an evil place, it's actually quite religious and i can see the blessing of God there so much more then here in the states), i came to realize how easy we have it here. Hot water? luxury. Meat at ever meal? HUGH luxury. Cars, good paying jobs, 40 hour work weeks, vacation time and sick pay. luxury.
All the things that we take for granted here wasn't there. And had i gone to other countries as well, i might have realized even more. There, if you go to a hospital and you're sick and dying and need a $500 treatment to save your life, if you don't have the money, they won't give you the treatment. It's quite sad. I don't mean to be a downer, and i'm quite sorry if this is the case, but seeing how people live in other countries should make you see just how easy we have it here. we have a large land with many natural resources. We shouldn't be selling it all away to china for the sake of our debt, but ehhh, hopefully we'll learn.
Anyways, my question immagikman, you've obviously travelled abroad (or two), where do you call home?
@Bjjorick Home is where the heart is To be more precise I grew up mostly in Pennsylvania but moved to several other states as I got older, then Joined the Navy and lived overseas in various ports for 6 months at a time and also spent 6 to 10 weeks at a shot in various "places" I either am not permitted to mention or did not know my self where I was. Right now I make my home just a few short miles from some serious 3 letter agencies headquarters in Maryland. I think last time I counted I had actually had homes in 10 different states and 5 countries or non-US territories...though I guess Puerto Rico is a US territory so 4 non-US countries....oh and the PI was a nice place to visit from time to time but I never got to spend more than a day there.
@immagikman ummm, you work for the gov't? ummm, was nice talking to you, but i think i should just.....disappear, before i......disappear, no?
nah, didn't want to ask you about anything classified, and i can understand the need for secrecy, I was just wondering if you still lived in the states or you had retired somewhere peaceful and quiet. Me and my wife plan to retire in the philippines whenever we're old enough, as it's her home, i enjoy it, and it seems i can draw my retirement there. Assuming things don't change in the next few years. But i'm honestly glad to see someone who can realize that alot of people in the west have an entitled attitude towards things, and would be quite surprised when someone puts a knife in their back. I'm not the type to do that to a person, but i make sure i know who to trust and who not to trust. It's the only reason why i've been at my job so long. That, and God has been good to me.
@Bjjorick Oh not any more, not since....about '95 I left the Government work behind. Im a Tech resource now. I will probably retire somewhere in the states...some where gun friendly and not too intrusive...as bad as it seems some times, I never managed to find somewhere I wanted to live more than the US...not that there arent some awesomely beautiful places around the globe....Im just most comfy here. LOL we are constantly hijacking threads...I need to be more dilligent about using the messaging feature.
My mind is blown that something about clearly evil creatures and their value in the game about an adventuring offspring of the dead god of murder has led us to this point that we're discussing things like Nazi Germany and bad healthcare.
Just tossing it out there, but, you can spin reasons to justify or demonize any activity, especially those in an adventure game or anything with conflicts. All I know is that from the very get-go, Gibberlings and Xvarts are terrorizing the trade routes, and always attack me unprovoked. They are the aggressor. Even in the case of the so-called "Xvart Village" they attack first. Last I recall, one of them spouts something about being invaded or something, but I didn't see them pulling out any peace-pipes or wanting to sing campfire songs. Just more attacking on sight, just like they try to butcher you and little Imoen five minutes into the open game.
I'll keep killing them, gibberlings, and kobolds, as long as they're trying to kill me too. Didn't stop me from getting the autographs of the gibberling, the kobold, and the xvart in the wilderness. I believe their names were Larry, Larry, and Darryle or something like that.
Being neutral doesn't have to mean doing good sometimes and evil other times to "maintain the balance". Neutral people or organizations simply don't strongly ally with one side or another except when absolutely necessary, prefering to mediate instead if they have to get involved at all. Druids in particular are true neutral in AD&D because they represent the interests of nature (forests rarely choose sides); druids just make sure the wild parts of the world aren't casualties of everyone elses' conflicts and expansion.
Ok the real question is...who determines good and evil? Society is making the laws, and the Druids might see the expansion of towns and cities as evil where as, it is viewed as "Good" by the people who have their lives improved and employment opportunites increase.
well in game, it was the gods who called themselves good and evil. And yeah, sorry that keep hijacking the treads, maybe we should form a thread terrorist group. or the board (bored) bandits.
i still think the xvarts are neutral. As was stated earlier, they were a hunting party, an 'outpost' but then, the humans seem to be encroaching on their territory with nashkel. also, don't forget that the gnoll stronghold was near there as well, for such little guys, that much worse then just a 'rock and a hard place'
i won't go so far as to call them good guys, but i can't see them as bad yet. i think that had the pc not come along, the potential for trading with the human settlement nearby (naskel) was just as likely as armed attacks.
Xvarts = kobolds with an added smurf gene, but without a ranged attack. (What they *do* have going for them in a fight is that "eeeeeee" noise, which I can't be alone in finding seriously nails-on-blackboard-y.)
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but if that's the case, then yeah, will need to make an effort to slaughter them all. Can give the game a pokemon feeling to it.
Kill them, kill them, gotta kill them all, GOTTA KILL EM ALL, damn druids....
surly edwin will assisst me on this most noble goal.
I was skimming the thread... synaptic missfire... toss Cookie Monster at the youtube search engine. That's all I know, sorry.
Nerds only?
can't remember enough of the game since it was 12 years ago or so that I played BG. it will come to me.
ahh I remember some guy that keeps coming up to you and saying Hey Ya repeatedly that was pretty retarded too. can't remember anything more.
i'd rather have good or evil, you know what to expect from them. neutral at best seems wishy-washy.
I completely breaks any believability, a reason in my tables, druids have been neutral good or neutra evil since the beginning.
The only creatures i can see as being completly neutral are some of the extraplanars as they would have a completly nonhumanoid mindset.
Doesn't change my feelings on the subject though as i still have a deep history in distrusting neutral chars. Death to ALL ADMI....errr, DRUIDS!!!!!
But i will stop to consider their actions first.
Even Opportunists and Evangelists do not willingly spend time hanging around the really bad people of the world...oh sure you may try to get them a message of love but you would not expose your children or those you were responsible for....well if you did you would be negligent and irresponsible, or might as an opportunist see an opportunity to advance your station by currying favor with said evil in which case you also would be guilty of evil, perhaps even greater evil than said evil person......and even then you would sleep with one eye open for fear of being killed, raped or tortured in some fashion. Most people in Western Societies do not comprehend what it is like to live 24x7 in the presence of evil...because we have been pampered too long. Errrk not trying to lecture, it just freaks me out that people can say such things as "I dont care if Im around evil people" to me it shows a serious disconnect from reality. (oh and in some parts of the world the EVIL is roaming free and unfettered.....Darfur for one but not the only place by far)
All the things that we take for granted here wasn't there. And had i gone to other countries as well, i might have realized even more. There, if you go to a hospital and you're sick and dying and need a $500 treatment to save your life, if you don't have the money, they won't give you the treatment. It's quite sad. I don't mean to be a downer, and i'm quite sorry if this is the case, but seeing how people live in other countries should make you see just how easy we have it here. we have a large land with many natural resources. We shouldn't be selling it all away to china for the sake of our debt, but ehhh, hopefully we'll learn.
Anyways, my question immagikman, you've obviously travelled abroad (or two), where do you call home?
Home is where the heart is
To be more precise I grew up mostly in Pennsylvania but moved to several other states as I got older, then Joined the Navy and lived overseas in various ports for 6 months at a time and also spent 6 to 10 weeks at a shot in various "places" I either am not permitted to mention or did not know my self where I was. Right now I make my home just a few short miles from some serious 3 letter agencies headquarters in Maryland. I think last time I counted I had actually had homes in 10 different states and 5 countries or non-US territories...though I guess Puerto Rico is a US territory so 4 non-US countries....oh and the PI was a nice place to visit from time to time but I never got to spend more than a day there.
nah, didn't want to ask you about anything classified, and i can understand the need for secrecy, I was just wondering if you still lived in the states or you had retired somewhere peaceful and quiet. Me and my wife plan to retire in the philippines whenever we're old enough, as it's her home, i enjoy it, and it seems i can draw my retirement there. Assuming things don't change in the next few years. But i'm honestly glad to see someone who can realize that alot of people in the west have an entitled attitude towards things, and would be quite surprised when someone puts a knife in their back. I'm not the type to do that to a person, but i make sure i know who to trust and who not to trust. It's the only reason why i've been at my job so long. That, and God has been good to me.
Oh not any more, not since....about '95 I left the Government work behind. Im a Tech resource now. I will probably retire somewhere in the states...some where gun friendly and not too intrusive...as bad as it seems some times, I never managed to find somewhere I wanted to live more than the US...not that there arent some awesomely beautiful places around the globe....Im just most comfy here. LOL we are constantly hijacking threads...I need to be more dilligent about using the messaging feature.
Just tossing it out there, but, you can spin reasons to justify or demonize any activity, especially those in an adventure game or anything with conflicts. All I know is that from the very get-go, Gibberlings and Xvarts are terrorizing the trade routes, and always attack me unprovoked. They are the aggressor. Even in the case of the so-called "Xvart Village" they attack first. Last I recall, one of them spouts something about being invaded or something, but I didn't see them pulling out any peace-pipes or wanting to sing campfire songs. Just more attacking on sight, just like they try to butcher you and little Imoen five minutes into the open game.
I'll keep killing them, gibberlings, and kobolds, as long as they're trying to kill me too. Didn't stop me from getting the autographs of the gibberling, the kobold, and the xvart in the wilderness. I believe their names were Larry, Larry, and Darryle or something like that.
i still think the xvarts are neutral. As was stated earlier, they were a hunting party, an 'outpost' but then, the humans seem to be encroaching on their territory with nashkel. also, don't forget that the gnoll stronghold was near there as well, for such little guys, that much worse then just a 'rock and a hard place'
i won't go so far as to call them good guys, but i can't see them as bad yet. i think that had the pc not come along, the potential for trading with the human settlement nearby (naskel) was just as likely as armed attacks.