"We're definitely interested in working on Baldur's Gate 3. We've put a ton of work into the franchise and I think the reviews of our new content speak to how well we understand the games. Most reviews say how seamlessly our content fits into the original games.
Hahahahahaha
He's kidding right?
...Oh God, he's not...
I know what you mean. I feel like the writing team needs to write a comedy and get all the humor out of their system before writing anything else. It leaks into the new BGEE content and not in a good way.
Simon and Garfunkel? Walking Dead references? And most egregiously, "Wild magic is wild."
Seriously? Are you kidding me? Each time I see something as heavy-handed as these I groan like its a reflex. If you're going to make a reference, keep it subtle - or, better yet - make it inventive instead of derivative.
I appreciate the EE's, I do, I love them. But I really don't want to see them writing anything else until they can get serious.
Shar-Teel says "If it bleeds, I can kill it...". This quote comes from Predator. More specifically, from Arnold Schwarzenegger. Dude, I'm not american. But I've never heard the saying "subtle like a Schwarzenegger's quote".
Reading the above stuff reminds me of why Dorn is my least favorite of the new NPCs by far. He comes off as a DMPC from a bad DnD campaign. He blatantly breaks rules the PC can't (race and class combo), is praised as being powerful and given plenty of power to back up this claim and he can defy logic in his story.
NPCs who break rules the PCs can't:
Minsc (has Berserker rage as a ranger, and has an unavailable animal companion), Dynaheir (innate slow poison ability), Coran (illegal dex and illegal three dots in bows), Yeslick (innate dispel magic), Alora (super-good item unusable by anyone else), Safana (innate charm animal), Branwen (innate spiritual weapon), Xan (super-good item unusable by anyone else), Faldorn (innate summon dread wolf), Quayle (innate turn invisible), Edwin (lolbetterwizardthanthecharnamecouldeverbe), Viconia (illegal race with high magic resistance that she shouldn't even have as a surface-living drow), Eldoth (innate poison arrows creation), Tiax (innate summon ghast), Aerie (illegal race giving an otherwise unavailable cleric/mage combination), Mazzy (a whole slew of innate powers), Anomen (gains six points of Wisdom instantly from doing his personal quest), Jan (significant amounts of unique and powerful equipment), Haer'Dalis (illegal race, illegal amount of proficiency dots in short swords), Sarevok (randomly does over 200 damage per hit), Hexxat (vampire with innate powers and super-high stats), Wilson (he's a bear).
While the whole "race and class combo PC can't" statement was silly indeed, there was far more to Necromancer's argument than that. You seem to be ignoring the real point.
Reading the above stuff reminds me of why Dorn is my least favorite of the new NPCs by far. He comes off as a DMPC from a bad DnD campaign. He blatantly breaks rules the PC can't (race and class combo), is praised as being powerful and given plenty of power to back up this claim and he can defy logic in his story.
NPCs who break rules the PCs can't:
Minsc (has Berserker rage as a ranger, and has an unavailable animal companion), Dynaheir (innate slow poison ability), Coran (illegal dex and illegal three dots in bows), Yeslick (innate dispel magic), Alora (super-good item unusable by anyone else), Safana (innate charm animal), Branwen (innate spiritual weapon), Xan (super-good item unusable by anyone else), Faldorn (innate summon dread wolf), Quayle (innate turn invisible), Edwin (lolbetterwizardthanthecharnamecouldeverbe), Viconia (illegal race with high magic resistance that she shouldn't even have as a surface-living drow), Eldoth (innate poison arrows creation), Tiax (innate summon ghast), Aerie (illegal race giving an otherwise unavailable cleric/mage combination), Mazzy (a whole slew of innate powers), Anomen (gains six points of Wisdom instantly from doing his personal quest), Jan (significant amounts of unique and powerful equipment), Haer'Dalis (illegal race, illegal amount of proficiency dots in short swords), Sarevok (randomly does over 200 damage per hit), Hexxat (vampire with innate powers and super-high stats), Wilson (he's a bear).
Also some returning characters from BG have a "Arn't you suppose to be dead?" option in their dialogue. I would have *really* appreciated this for Dorn since he actually did die in my playthrough. I was doing a perma-death thing with NPCs and a ghoul got him good.
That's not limited to Dorn.
No. None of that is limited to Dorn. Its that *and* all those other things that upset me. I can deal with a few little bits of rule breaking. Its all that combined with the bad writing that bothers me. A character can break rules, a character can be, in concept, terrible, but if they're written well then they'll be fine.
Dorn is not written well. Thats why he stands out.
No. None of that is limited to Dorn. Its that *and* all those other things that upset me. I can deal with a few little bits of rule breaking. Its all that combined with the bad writing that bothers me. A character can break rules, a character can be, in concept, terrible, but if they're written well then they'll be fine.
Dorn is not written well. Thats why he stands out.
I disagree (and he generally seems to be among the more well-liked of the EE NPCs, although of course the fact he's very powerful in BG1 doesn't hurt). However, I isolated that point you made becuase it's one that can be used against half the NPCs in both games (some of whom, notably Edwin, are far more powerful than Dorn) and thus has dubious value as a strike against him.
I don't think Dorn's even as remotely favoured by story fiat and dialogue as you think, but we've played the same game, so I deem it unlikely that I will be able to convince you. Ultimately it's a subjective point... other than the fact you are totally misusing the term "Mary Sue", which is a specific term for a specific sort of character that absolutely none of the EE character even resembles. Of course, so does everyone else, so I can't fault you overmuch for that even if it makes me twitchy to see it.
No. None of that is limited to Dorn. Its that *and* all those other things that upset me. I can deal with a few little bits of rule breaking. Its all that combined with the bad writing that bothers me. A character can break rules, a character can be, in concept, terrible, but if they're written well then they'll be fine.
Dorn is not written well. Thats why he stands out.
I disagree (and he generally seems to be among the more well-liked of the EE NPCs, although of course the fact he's very powerful in BG1 doesn't hurt). However, I isolated that point you made becuase it's one that can be used against half the NPCs in both games (some of whom, notably Edwin, are far more powerful than Dorn) and thus has dubious value as a strike against him.
I don't think Dorn's even as remotely favoured by story fiat and dialogue as you think, but we've played the same game, so I deem it unlikely that I will be able to convince you. Ultimately it's a subjective point... other than the fact you are totally misusing the term "Mary Sue", which is a specific term for a specific sort of character that absolutely none of the EE character even resembles. Of course, so does everyone else, so I can't fault you overmuch for that even if it makes me twitchy to see it.
Things like this do come down to a matter of taste, that I admit. I will say that I think hes one of the more popular NPCs for two reasons. Power and hes evil. Honestly? I approve of him being evil, the game needs more evil NPCs in BG2, and as I said, I don't have a problem with his concept. I just think he could have been better executed. That all being said if I ever get around to playing an evil run I'll probably be glad to have him around, despite this creeping fear that I'll hate his friendship dialogues, but truth be told I doubt I'll hate it half as much as I say.
That being said, hes still my least favorite of the new characters, though I did recently recruit Neera and physically twitch when she said I stood by and did nothing to help when she was in trouble. I'd rather not be forced to not do something via game mechanics and then be shamed for it later.Its not funny and it kinda ruins my enjoyment of RPing a self sacrificing ubber tank paladin who rushes into harm's way like an idiot most of the time.
I, of course, understand that things like that might happen in the main game as well. That doesn't make it okay. It just means the main game is either imperfect, or at least implemented it in such a way that I did not twitch and ruin my immersion.
Also, apologizes if the term sue upset you. I realized it wasn't entirely fitting, but it was the best word I could think of at the time.
Edit:Realized the comment of Neera could be considered a spoiler.
I, of course, understand that things like that might happen in the main game as well. That doesn't make it okay. It just means the main game is either imperfect, or at least implemented it in such a way that I did not twitch and ruin my immersion.
Well, to be fair? In the particular case of Neera, it is a well-established part of her character that she is quick to leap to conclusions and astonishingly ungrateful. CN alignment, donchaknow. It puts a lot of people off, but I actually like her more for being somebody that in real life would sometimes be very difficult to get along or sustain a relationship with.
Also, apologizes if the term sue upset you. I realized it wasn't entirely fitting, but it was the best word I could think of at the time.
It's quite alright. Like people using "literally" when they mean "figuratively", the original term is completely corrupted by usage at this point. I just point it out of of cantankerousness.
Man, Necromancer pretty much copied and pasted from my mind onto the internet (must be an Illithid Necromancer). I pretty much agree with most of what he said. I was really expecting the "aren't you supposed to be dead?" line with Dorn (and the other EEs) since a lot of other returning characters also have that option (Edwin, Xzar)
Also completely agree with Ayiekie about the misuse of "Mary Sue", which seems to happen 9/10 times the phrase is used on this forum, but I know exactly what you are trying to convey with it.
So, it sounds to me like you just wanted to accost a guy for standing around, with no proof of wrongdoing. If so, why talk to him at all? Why not just attack?
So, it sounds to me like you just wanted to accost a guy for standing around, with no proof of wrongdoing. If so, why talk to him at all? Why not just attack?
...isn't that exactly what I did in the end?
However, many good characters would not do that, but it makes more sense than the alternatives. Also a Blackguard eying up an the main order of paladins in the middle of the Temple District is not "a guy standing around"
However, many good characters would not do that, but it makes more sense than the alternatives. Also a Blackguard eying up an the main order of paladins in the middle of the Temple District is not "a guy standing around"
Except that you don't know he's a blackguard at that point. More to the point, he isn't doing anything - if you're playing LG (or possibly even NG), you should at least have some evidence that he's committing a crime before smiting him.
@Dee has suggested that this discussion should probably be disbanded. At the very least, I highly recommend taking it into its own thread so that people know where to find it and so that the OP isn't plagued by notifications and feelings of guilt over his role in the greatest battle to occur in D&D since Edwin met Elminster.
However, many good characters would not do that, but it makes more sense than the alternatives. Also a Blackguard eying up an the main order of paladins in the middle of the Temple District is not "a guy standing around"
Except that you don't know he's a blackguard at that point. More to the point, he isn't doing anything - if you're playing LG (or possibly even NG), you should at least have some evidence that he's committing a crime before smiting him.
The dialogue options provided allow you to recognize him... in fact the first game FORCES you to encounter him! So your character should be aware about at least some of Dorn's history, at least enough to know he is an evil Blackguard. So you basically should know he is a blackguard (automatic, capital "e" Evil!). If you are LG and in *law enforcement* I totally agree with you (though clearly law enforcement in Athkatla does not have the same restraints that it does in most modern developed nations), but I doubt that someone like Keldorn would have a problem throwing the first punch at a Blackguard, especially one who is staking out the local paladin order!
Folks, after playing Planescape: Torment I feel all the games have their dialogues flawed, sometimes I even felt PS:T missed one or two options in some dialogues.
But... Why not to improve this by making a dialog-enhacer for the EE NPCs with weidu? I mean... I don't think that all these debate was done in a minute, so...
EDIT: this debate is lately going LITERALLY to The Abyss, so maybe trying to convince another person that Green is better than Yellow... We all have sifferent opinions, humans will never completely agree, just try to agree the most and don't kill anyone, thanks.
However, many good characters would not do that, but it makes more sense than the alternatives. Also a Blackguard eying up an the main order of paladins in the middle of the Temple District is not "a guy standing around"
A guy standing around is a guy standing around. You don't have any evidence of wrongdoing, because he hasn't even done anything yet. I'm afraid being a Blackguard and looking at buildings aren't crimes, O Heroic One.
However, many good characters would not do that, but it makes more sense than the alternatives. Also a Blackguard eying up an the main order of paladins in the middle of the Temple District is not "a guy standing around"
A guy standing around is a guy standing around. You don't have any evidence of wrongdoing, because he hasn't even done anything yet. I'm afraid being a Blackguard and looking at buildings aren't crimes, O Heroic One.
Yes you are right. The blackguard I met a couple months ago who bragged about how much he loves killing people and gained power by selling his soul to a demon is totally a good dude that my character (who is obviously a police officer?) should have no suspicion of.
The dialogue options provided allow you to recognize him... in fact the first game FORCES you to encounter him!
Nnnnnope. If you don't talk to him at the Friendly Arm Inn, that encounter doesn't trigger when you go to Nashkel.
In Athkatla, you have the choice to say that you traveled with him in the past - just as you do with Xzar or Edwin - but it's not mandatory. So if your character never met him before, literally the only thing you know is that he's a half-orc standing in front of the Radiant Heart headquarters. And he's probably scowling. I realize LG paladins can slaughter entire xvart or goblin villages without falling, but randomly provoking some guy in the middle of the street doesn't strike me as the best RP use of the Good alignments.
If you are looking at discussing Dorn getting extra dialogue added maybe the better place for that would be a feature request. Just to not continue the dark path of derailing this thread.
Dee has suggested that this discussion should probably be disbanded. At the very least, I highly recommend taking it into its own thread so that people know where to find it and so that the OP isn't plagued by notifications and feelings of guilt over his role in the greatest battle to occur in D&D since Edwin met Elminster.
If you are looking at discussing Dorn getting extra dialogue added maybe the better place for that would be a feature request. Just to not continue the dark path of derailing this thread.
I'm just going to reiterate this.
I'm certain the Beamdog team appreciates any and all constructive criticism that will help make the game better. If you want to continue the debate about how well (or not) Dorn or the others matches in to the game, then please feel free to create a new topic. The current topic now seems to be very specific to Dorn (or at least he is the one getting the most attention out of the three new characters), and less about the general Q&A session Trent did.
I don't see the point of this disscussion, as I've said it's going to the abyss. Oh! And I sometimes change my personalty a little, well, most of the time.
Yes you are right. The blackguard I met a couple months ago who bragged about how much he loves killing people and gained power by selling his soul to a demon is totally a good dude that my character (who is obviously a police officer?) should have no suspicion of.
I'm so convinced.
Is that what you're going to tell the guard when witnesses report you slaying a man in the street? "He was a bad guy, officer!"
Yes you are right. The blackguard I met a couple months ago who bragged about how much he loves killing people and gained power by selling his soul to a demon is totally a good dude that my character (who is obviously a police officer?) should have no suspicion of.
I'm so convinced.
Is that what you're going to tell the guard when witnesses report you slaying a man in the street? "He was a bad guy, officer!"
That's how a lawful stupid paladin gets role-played IIRC my Cavalier run, he was CG because he was like a PC Minsc, BUTT KICKING FOR GOODNESS!! WIS and INT were his dump stats, he had 21 CHA 2 INT and 4 WIS, besides 19 STR DEX and CON, he was a total badass, but he was Lawful Chaotic Stupid Good.... Weird, but he had a Rep of 20 all the time.
Yes you are right. The blackguard I met a couple months ago who bragged about how much he loves killing people and gained power by selling his soul to a demon is totally a good dude that my character (who is obviously a police officer?) should have no suspicion of.
I'm so convinced.
Is that what you're going to tell the guard when witnesses report you slaying a man in the street? "He was a bad guy, officer!"
Ideally, I'd be able to warn the Paldains that a friggin' Half-Orc version of Faust is staking out their headquarters, but considering that the Order has evil detection magic I think my story would still hold some sway with the authorities. I never said killing him was the best option, just the only one that makes sense for the majority of good npcs.
The dialogue options provided allow you to recognize him... in fact the first game FORCES you to encounter him!
If you don't talk to him at the Friendly Arm Inn, that encounter doesn't trigger when you go to Nashkel.
I did not know that, and it does change my opinion on that just a little, but I still don't find the response choices satisfactory, especially since my character *did* meet him in BG1 (found out who he was then killed him before he could really begin his reign of terror). Before you say that many of the original characters, like Edwin and Xzar had the same problem, I actually agree with that 100%... but they also had the option "aren't you supposed to be dead?" or "didn't I kill you?". I think that would have been a good option as well, in addition to something like "Die fiend! lol".
In Athkatla, you have the choice to say that you traveled with him in the past - just as you do with Xzar or Edwin - but it's not mandatory. So if your character never met him before, literally the only thing you know is that he's a half-orc standing in front of the Radiant Heart headquarters. And he's probably scowling. I realize LG paladins can slaughter entire xvart or goblin villages without falling, but randomly provoking some guy in the middle of the street doesn't strike me as the best RP use of the Good alignments.
Well, for one my character did meet him. Secondly my paladin has a nifty ability called "Detect Evil" and members of my party have "Know Alignment". Also if he knows he's a Blackguard from a previous meeting, despite a previous posters claim, would be a perfectly legitimate reason for attacking him on sight, because unlike a normal "pedestrian", the Blackguard (according to the description of the kit *in the game*) "epitomizes evil and is nothing short of a mortal fiend" (actual text!) [/spoiler]
Comments
Hey man, I'll stop complaining when bears become a PC race. I mean, come on man. Bear wizard ftw.
This quote comes from Predator. More specifically, from Arnold Schwarzenegger.
Dude, I'm not american. But I've never heard the saying "subtle like a Schwarzenegger's quote".
PS. Arnold, ich liebe dich.
Dorn is not written well. Thats why he stands out.
I don't think Dorn's even as remotely favoured by story fiat and dialogue as you think, but we've played the same game, so I deem it unlikely that I will be able to convince you. Ultimately it's a subjective point... other than the fact you are totally misusing the term "Mary Sue", which is a specific term for a specific sort of character that absolutely none of the EE character even resembles. Of course, so does everyone else, so I can't fault you overmuch for that even if it makes me twitchy to see it.
I, of course, understand that things like that might happen in the main game as well. That doesn't make it okay. It just means the main game is either imperfect, or at least implemented it in such a way that I did not twitch and ruin my immersion.
Also, apologizes if the term sue upset you. I realized it wasn't entirely fitting, but it was the best word I could think of at the time.
Edit:Realized the comment of Neera could be considered a spoiler.
Also completely agree with Ayiekie about the misuse of "Mary Sue", which seems to happen 9/10 times the phrase is used on this forum, but I know exactly what you are trying to convey with it.
So, it sounds to me like you just wanted to accost a guy for standing around, with no proof of wrongdoing. If so, why talk to him at all? Why not just attack?
However, many good characters would not do that, but it makes more sense than the alternatives. Also a Blackguard eying up an the main order of paladins in the middle of the Temple District is not "a guy standing around"
The dialogue options provided allow you to recognize him... in fact the first game FORCES you to encounter him! So your character should be aware about at least some of Dorn's history, at least enough to know he is an evil Blackguard.
So you basically should know he is a blackguard (automatic, capital "e" Evil!). If you are LG and in *law enforcement* I totally agree with you (though clearly law enforcement in Athkatla does not have the same restraints that it does in most modern developed nations), but I doubt that someone like Keldorn would have a problem throwing the first punch at a Blackguard, especially one who is staking out the local paladin order!
But... Why not to improve this by making a dialog-enhacer for the EE NPCs with weidu? I mean... I don't think that all these debate was done in a minute, so...
EDIT: this debate is lately going LITERALLY to The Abyss, so maybe trying to convince another person that Green is better than Yellow... We all have sifferent opinions, humans will never completely agree, just try to agree the most and don't kill anyone, thanks.
I'm so convinced.
In Athkatla, you have the choice to say that you traveled with him in the past - just as you do with Xzar or Edwin - but it's not mandatory. So if your character never met him before, literally the only thing you know is that he's a half-orc standing in front of the Radiant Heart headquarters. And he's probably scowling. I realize LG paladins can slaughter entire xvart or goblin villages without falling, but randomly provoking some guy in the middle of the street doesn't strike me as the best RP use of the Good alignments.
I'm certain the Beamdog team appreciates any and all constructive criticism that will help make the game better. If you want to continue the debate about how well (or not) Dorn or the others matches in to the game, then please feel free to create a new topic. The current topic now seems to be very specific to Dorn (or at least he is the one getting the most attention out of the three new characters), and less about the general Q&A session Trent did.
Oh! And I sometimes change my personalty a little, well, most of the time.
[spoiler] Ideally, I'd be able to warn the Paldains that a friggin' Half-Orc version of Faust is staking out their headquarters, but considering that the Order has evil detection magic I think my story would still hold some sway with the authorities.
I never said killing him was the best option, just the only one that makes sense for the majority of good npcs. I did not know that, and it does change my opinion on that just a little, but I still don't find the response choices satisfactory, especially since my character *did* meet him in BG1 (found out who he was then killed him before he could really begin his reign of terror). Before you say that many of the original characters, like Edwin and Xzar had the same problem, I actually agree with that 100%... but they also had the option "aren't you supposed to be dead?" or "didn't I kill you?". I think that would have been a good option as well, in addition to something like "Die fiend! lol". Well, for one my character did meet him. Secondly my paladin has a nifty ability called "Detect Evil" and members of my party have "Know Alignment". Also if he knows he's a Blackguard from a previous meeting, despite a previous posters claim, would be a perfectly legitimate reason for attacking him on sight, because unlike a normal "pedestrian", the Blackguard (according to the description of the kit *in the game*) "epitomizes evil and is nothing short of a mortal fiend" (actual text!)
[/spoiler]
Start a new thread to continue the discussion; this conversation has gone far beyond the bounds of the Q&A that Trent did with Kotaku.
Further off-topic posts will be deleted without warning.