If you want to get into the new NPCs areas without them, use C:MoveToArea(OHxxxxxx") and done! If you don't want to get into the new areas (you'll miss them, they are very good rendered) and want to take the NPCs, mess a little with the variables and the NPCs will shut up and don't bother you to do their quests. If you don't want any of the above, IGNORE EVERYTHING! If you don't even want to ignore everything, go play vanilla, it's still being good. If you don't want to play vanilla nor BG:EE, definitely you need BGT or you're not wanting to play BG at all.
This is discussion getting off-topic and I'm starting to feel the heat that it's emanating, I already have the air conditioner on in my house ('tis summer) and I don't want an Incendiary Cloud in my room because not even Zone of sweets air removes it.
Is content being canon actually an issue? Am sure there are many fans that have read the literature surround the games but does that alone detract from the gameplay? Am also sure there are many, myself included that believe canonicity of the games to their PnP/novel counterparts mean little. I wont lose sleep tonight over the fact Minsc should have hair for instance.
I hope a BG3 is made and continues to explore Faerûn. Not entirely sure if I would like to see more Bhaalspawn action but ill buy it regardless, a guy needs his BG fix and some new quests and adventures.
One point to consider re: new areas being tied to new NPCs is that, if RP is your concern, you don't actually have any valid reason to ever visit these locations unless the new NPCs are with you.
I mean, say you could get to Resurrection Gorge without Dorn, or the Dark Moon Temple without Rasaad. Well, what would you do there? Those locations are specifically tied into the new NPCs' stories, they exist as backdrops to complete those quests. What would be the point of going through those areas without the story context? Unless you're powergaming, in which case you might as well take the NPC, do the quest, get the loot, then drop the NPC.
@shawne I agree with everything you just said, but again, it is the fact that there is so little content in the actual game that is accessible without the NPCs that bothers most people. What you are describing is *exactly* the beef many have with the game
My only problem is Neera's area, because you can almost access it without her. It feels very similar to Nalias quest in that you meet Neera and she tells you to go to an area and help her out. However when you get to the area, after working through the crazy magic woods, you are told you may not enter without Neera. I feel that they should have made the decision to let you help these mages without Neera In your group, but that's just my opinion. The other new NPC content feels far more personal to the NPCs IMO, and thus bothers me less. I do understand some content being tied to having the NPC in your party, it was done with the planar sphere and Valygar after all, however I just feel that the Neera quest could have been handled without her (her first quest anyway).
@shawne I agree with everything you just said, but again, it is the fact that there is so little content in the actual game that is accessible without the NPCs that bothers most people. What you are describing is *exactly* the beef many have with the game
The flaw in that argument is that the new NPCs are part of the "actual game". You're creating a distinction where none exists, at least insofar as the EEs are concerned.
@shawne I agree with everything you just said, but again, it is the fact that there is so little content in the actual game that is accessible without the NPCs that bothers most people. What you are describing is *exactly* the beef many have with the game
The flaw in that argument is that the new NPCs are part of the "actual game". You're creating a distinction where none exists, at least insofar as the EEs are concerned.
@shawne I agree with everything you just said, but again, it is the fact that there is so little content in the actual game that is accessible without the NPCs that bothers most people. What you are describing is *exactly* the beef many have with the game
Ohh, wow... I've never imagined that interview would lead to the level of heat this discussion has. I've had a chance to read all your dialogue as a whole and have to say both sides really like this game and just want to make it better.
I hope (moreover, I'm sure) the Devs will in one way or another take into account what the community thinks about a way the future of this project should unfold. Constructive criticism and step-by-step defense of the current picture so much resemble a legal case. The only way for a judge to make a good decision is to listen to the both parties, to read through the arguments and to weight all cons and pros. So the more we talk about our thoughts both for and against the Beamdog approach to the EEs the better.
For example (just one in an interaction where literally every set of responses had me scratching my head) I see Dorn. I try to figure out what's going on. This happens: Its like: 1st Option: I'm snarky and want to avoid trouble 2nd Option: Herp Derp me curious 3rd Option: I'm an evil person! Burn!
I don't see the issue with the second option, certainly not how it's "herp derp" or implies any lack of intelligence whatsoever. Given that your character isn't the police, what Dorn is doing standing in a public street is in fact not any of your business, but a matter of your curiosity.
For example (just one in an interaction where literally every set of responses had me scratching my head) I see Dorn. I try to figure out what's going on. This happens: Its like: 1st Option: I'm snarky and want to avoid trouble 2nd Option: Herp Derp me curious 3rd Option: I'm an evil person! Burn!
I don't see the issue with the second option, certainly not how it's "herp derp" or implies any lack of intelligence whatsoever. Given that your character isn't the police, what Dorn is doing standing in a public street is in fact not any of your business, but a matter of your curiosity.
If your character is good aligned heroic character, seeing a psychopath standing in front of what is essentially the equivalent of a police station *is* your business. Also, to somehow not have any idea what a *Blackguard* is doing *staking out* an order of *paladins* does imply a lack of intelligence.
Which of these options was a good heroic character (which seems to be the most commonly played type) supposed to choose?
Okay, I'm bored so lets do some real analysis. Lets imagine you are a generic good/neutral character and you encounter Dorn. Start from the beginning This is your first option
Ok, option one is out of the question for a character that isn't the world's wussiest Bhaalspawn Option 2: neutral enough for anyone to choose, though I doubt all good characters would be so cordial Option 3: the best option, I guess, though it shoe-horns you into the super snarky guy
so lets assume i choose option 3... this is where it gets bad
(first Minsc said that Dorn wasn't ugly, but that part is unimportant)
option 1: no, my neutral good gnome savior of Baldur's Gate certainly did not travel with a psychotic Blackguard on the Sword Coast option 2: huh? did not mean it as a compliment option 3: I'm snarky and not funny, but maybe this will be the option that leads me to stop his neferious plot! Sword meet evil!
but wait... after picking option 3 I get...
*cricket*...*cricket* booinyoureyes: sigh... power word reload lets try this again
lets try option 2 this time: I guess Dorn could remember me from our previous encounter, even if it wasn't friendly. Lets see what happens YES! Finally. Not one but TWO options that make sense! Lets try option 2 first! I'm so excited
-_- After that we end up with the first picture I mentioned before
power word reload, lets get back to the two GOOD options from before
This time lets choose option 1! We will find sanity in all this madness! So Dorn, you can't be seeking redemption can you? thats just crazy talk!
Lets see where this ends up. Must be somewhere where I can confront this dude in a way that makes sense!
o.0?
Booinyoureyes: grrr... enough is enough! I will do this right or I will not do this at all! power word: reload
okay, I guess this is one of the only thing that the game lets my character do that makes sense
Ha! I'll show him a fight! At least I will have the satisfaction of beating him in a straight battle!
So many people have complained about that initial dialogue. I think it will go down in history as the worst EE dialogue ever. It really is bad. Not a good first impression.
Yeah, it was bad. Not all were that bad though, and some were awesome (like the Wild Mages in their secret hideout). I thought Rasaad's quest had some cool dialogue, especially in the temple.
Just for the record I actually love the game, and give it a 9.5 on every poll on this forum. I don't mean to give the impression that I think the game sucks or anything like that, I just don't like how every criticism is met with derision and/or dismissed.
If you bought the game for two mediocre and short dungeons, then you have bigger issues with Beamdog than the method by which you access those dungeons.
With all due respect, as I appreciate the argument you are trying to make and I don't want to see another thread descend into a below-the-belt or bitter barter of insults, you don't have the right to decide this or enact it as a defence. People bought the game for different reasons, and no reason has greater legitimacy, nor will the people at Overhaul ever make a hierarchy of whose purchase is worth more to them in terms of the feedback they recieve.
Sorry if this is overly negative, but this is how I've come to feel about the game recently. - It's been mentioned by others, but the new content ain't seamless. The art style of the portraits, the voices, the area artwork, the bugs and the battles themselves don't feel quite like BG. - He claims to have fixed a bug with trolls, while trolls remain one of the buggiest enemies in the game. - I think he is quite dismissive of the amount of bugs in the game, and this statement is a bit of a lie: "fix bugs as we find them, add new features as we think them up and update our fans to new versions of the game" considering that it's been a while since the last patch (and it really needs one), Android has been prioritised over patching the game, and there are some really nice ideas in the feature requests forum (admittedly outnumbered by bad/unfeasible ones) which should be in the game.
wait, is this troll bug that they refuse to lie down after getting to low hp so that you can Melf them in the face?
edit: apparently that is a bug. I thought I was going nuts!
I'd like to point out here that when it came to problems with my game, I would come here and post them and a moderator or whatever (usually Jalily) would usually come immediately and fix it.
Some of them weren't even bugs, I'd just be like "HELP, I messed up my Bard Stronghold! What do I do?" and then literally within a half hour Jalily just came and told me what to type into the CLUAConsole to fix my problem.
I think that is awesome and the best "feature" of the EE
@booinyoureyes I agree with you. I had many small-medium sized bugs which people like Gate70 helped solve (or at least added to the bug list). The volunteers doing this stuff on this forum are mostly wonderful.
My problem is that bugs happened so frequently and I found myself coming here so often that my immersion into the game was completely broken, and that patching the game properly isn't a priority.
If you bought the game for two mediocre and short dungeons, then you have bigger issues with Beamdog than the method by which you access those dungeons.
With all due respect, as I appreciate the argument you are trying to make and I don't want to see another thread descend into a below-the-belt or bitter barter of insults, you don't have the right to decide this or enact it as a defence. People bought the game for different reasons, and no reason has greater legitimacy, nor will the people at Overhaul ever make a hierarchy of whose purchase is worth more to them in terms of the feedback they recieve.
I honestly have no idea what you're on about. If you bought the game for "new content" that was not advertised, and that amounted to two short, mediocre dungeons, then you bought the game for a strange reason - and the problem with the content is much greater than "how I access it".
If I bought the game for how much it fleshed out Faldorn's character, I would also have bought it for a strange reason. Because it wasn't part of the advertised features of the game, and in fact wasn't actually in the game.
I do in fact have the right to make a judgment on someone else's argument (goodness knows @booinyoureyes made several judgments on mine). That does not deny @booinyoureyes the right to buy the game for whatever reason he likes. I just think it's peculiar to argue "lots of people bought the game for new content", when said new content was not an advertised feature of the game and does not in fact in game add up to very much content at all.
That's not the only point about Dorn that is problematic.
In SoA I really enjoyed Neera's and Rasaad's questline, but Dorn gave me a bit of a hard time sometimes. There are parts I really enjoyed about him, but that whole thing about slaying the priest in the middle of Radiant Heart just makes no sense to me.
I don't see any way how this could have possibly worked out. Especially as you can later come back with Dorn in your party and none of the paladins sense a blackguard amongst their midst?
Don't tell me paladins would have no way of divine magic to find out what happend. After that incident I would expect a horde of paladins showing up at almost every map transition to hunt my party down (just like the flaming fist does in BG1 when you have low rep).
I really don't understand your reasoning here.
So, by the same token, paladins should also be showing up at almost every map transition to hunt you down, because you're a Bhaalspawn?
Also, there should be about a thousand paladins fighting Irenicus, and Bodhi and all her vampires should have been hunted down and slain before you even arrived in the city?
Because they could find out about those things with divine magic, too.
Heck, there should really be no living villains left in the world, because paladins? Why do the Shadow Thieves still exist? Why did Sarevok not get smitten before he made it to Candlekeep? Why does your chaotic evil charname not get killed during the opening cutscene of the game?
Especially because the journal implies that the party (or at least Dorn) will probably be hunt down!
Yes. And that actually happens. Dorn gets hunted down and attacked for his actions more than once. This is part of why he turns on his patron, as he realises the reckless things he's being forced to do are going to get him killed. It's sort of the entire crux of Dorn's plotline, I'm not sure how you missed it. In case you did, he gets attacked again in Throne of Bhaal, too.
Not to mention that any quests related to the Radiant Heart should be not possible to get/complete anymore (which yeah, would be a huge issue for other players).
I don't believe they are possible; at least, in my game the temple remained deserted afterwards.
This is a real immersion breaker for me, which is why in future times I will refrain from taking Dorn along.
It is an immersion-breaker for you that you can kill a cleric and not immediately get killed by doomsquads carrying out retributive strikes? I got bad news for you, then. That guy who was poisoning the mines at Nashkel? He was also a cleric (of Cyric). By all rights, your charname shouldn't have lived long enough to fight Sarevok, thus rendering the Dorn plotline irrelevant.
I honestly have no idea why you think b follows from a here. It doesn't anywhere else in the game, original or EE. Certain people are arbitrarily unkillable, but aside from that, you can gank a hell of a lot more powerful, important and influential people than "some cleric in a temple" and this does not produce a timed Game Over where 40 holy warriors kick down the inn door and vapourise your charname.
You can kill everybody in every temple in the city, if you want. This was possible in the original game. It did not auto-kill you. It's not even very hard. Why did that not break your immersion?
Before you say "Well, no plot told you to do that", in the Maevar questline for the thieve's guild, one of the possible missions is to steal sacred artifacts from the temple of Lathander, which turns everyone inside hostile at you (and if you're nicer, you're stealing from Talos instead, not exactly an improvement). And yet, somehow you can still finish the game without having to fight off doomsquads of paladins at every turn.
hey man Ayiekie, I respect your opinion and all but please don't summon me to a spat of yours that has nothing to do with me. I don't really have much to say about what you and Reckless are discussing. Clearly we don't find eachother very agreeable, and it would be best to not invite the other to join in on other discussions that don't involve them, especially after explicitly saying you have no interest in doing so.
hey man Ayiekie, I respect your opinion and all but please don't summon me to a spat of yours that has nothing to do with me. I don't really have much to say about what you and Reckless are discussing. Clearly we don't find eachother very agreeable, and it would be best to not invite the other to join in on other discussions that don't involve them, especially after explicitly saying you have no interest in doing so.
Sorry, it's just by habit that I used the "@" there, not an intentional attempt to involve you in the argument. Though I could hardly avoid mentioning you, given recklessheart was posting about you in the first place.
Reading the above stuff reminds me of why Dorn is my least favorite of the new NPCs by far. He comes off as a DMPC from a bad DnD campaign. He blatantly breaks rules the PC can't (race and class combo), is praised as being powerful and given plenty of power to back up this claim and he can defy logic in his story.
Also the player is not allowed to deal with him properly. How dare you. Dorn is there to be cool, not to deal with silly things like intelligence players who want to be heroic and good and not stupid. Don't you know any good character dealing with him would obviously be intimidated or snarky? It makes perfect sense.
Also some returning characters from BG have a "Arn't you suppose to be dead?" option in their dialogue. I would have *really* appreciated this for Dorn since he actually did die in my playthrough. I was doing a perma-death thing with NPCs and a ghoul got him good.
Truth be told, I have no problem with Dorn in concept or character, but the way the world reacts to him is a sign that the writers were a bit too in love with his character.
Truth be told, I have no problem with Dorn in concept or character, but the way the world reacts to him is a sign that the writers were a bit too in love with his character.
Really well said. I think all of the new NPCs exuded that feeling onto me; that the writers adored their characters far too much. At first glance, that's not an issue at all, in fact it's a great thing that the writers like their character, of course. But it really messes with the game, because all of these characters are special snowflakes. Particularly Dorn and ugh definitely Hexxat.
I'm working (rather slowly) on a NPC mod and one of my biggest goals is making the character actually fit in with the existing cast instead of being all super special.
Reading the above stuff reminds me of why Dorn is my least favorite of the new NPCs by far. He comes off as a DMPC from a bad DnD campaign. He blatantly breaks rules the PC can't (race and class combo), is praised as being powerful and given plenty of power to back up this claim and he can defy logic in his story.
NPCs who break rules the PCs can't:
Minsc (has Berserker rage as a ranger, and has an unavailable animal companion), Dynaheir (innate slow poison ability), Coran (illegal dex and illegal three dots in bows), Yeslick (innate dispel magic), Alora (super-good item unusable by anyone else), Safana (innate charm animal), Branwen (innate spiritual weapon), Xan (super-good item unusable by anyone else), Faldorn (innate summon dread wolf), Quayle (innate turn invisible), Edwin (lolbetterwizardthanthecharnamecouldeverbe), Viconia (illegal race with high magic resistance that she shouldn't even have as a surface-living drow), Eldoth (innate poison arrows creation), Tiax (innate summon ghast), Aerie (illegal race giving an otherwise unavailable cleric/mage combination), Mazzy (a whole slew of innate powers), Anomen (gains six points of Wisdom instantly from doing his personal quest), Jan (significant amounts of unique and powerful equipment), Haer'Dalis (illegal race, illegal amount of proficiency dots in short swords), Sarevok (randomly does over 200 damage per hit), Hexxat (vampire with innate powers and super-high stats), Wilson (he's a bear).
Also some returning characters from BG have a "Arn't you suppose to be dead?" option in their dialogue. I would have *really* appreciated this for Dorn since he actually did die in my playthrough. I was doing a perma-death thing with NPCs and a ghoul got him good.
Truth be told, I have no problem with Dorn in concept or character, but the way the world reacts to him is a sign that the writers were a bit too in love with his character.
Really well said. I think all of the new NPCs exuded that feeling onto me; that the writers adored their characters far too much. At first glance, that's not an issue at all, in fact it's a great thing that the writers like their character, of course. But it really messes with the game, because all of these characters are special snowflakes. Particularly Dorn and ugh definitely Hexxat.
I'm working (rather slowly) on a NPC mod and one of my biggest goals is making the character actually fit in with the existing cast instead of being all super special.
Loving your characters isn't so bad, but the problem alot of writers have is they want to make things revolve around said character. To the point where everyone else is a reflection of this character's personality and abilities.
If I can use the term Mary Sue its pretty much the defining trait of their sort of character. When you write a good character you have to see the world from all perspectives. Even the villains and minor characters. Get into their heads and see the world through their views as well. Make a world about everyone, not just your character, even if their central.
One thought in my mind is this. If you want your character to be scary and evil, its important to not have the other characters react as if he is. He must simply *be* scary and evil.
Comments
If you don't want to get into the new areas (you'll miss them, they are very good rendered) and want to take the NPCs, mess a little with the variables and the NPCs will shut up and don't bother you to do their quests.
If you don't want any of the above, IGNORE EVERYTHING!
If you don't even want to ignore everything, go play vanilla, it's still being good.
If you don't want to play vanilla nor BG:EE, definitely you need BGT or you're not wanting to play BG at all.
This is discussion getting off-topic and I'm starting to feel the heat that it's emanating, I already have the air conditioner on in my house ('tis summer) and I don't want an Incendiary Cloud in my room because not even Zone of sweets air removes it.
I hope a BG3 is made and continues to explore Faerûn. Not entirely sure if I would like to see more Bhaalspawn action but ill buy it regardless, a guy needs his BG fix and some new quests and adventures.
I mean, say you could get to Resurrection Gorge without Dorn, or the Dark Moon Temple without Rasaad. Well, what would you do there? Those locations are specifically tied into the new NPCs' stories, they exist as backdrops to complete those quests. What would be the point of going through those areas without the story context? Unless you're powergaming, in which case you might as well take the NPC, do the quest, get the loot, then drop the NPC.
What you are describing is *exactly* the beef many have with the game
The other new NPC content feels far more personal to the NPCs IMO, and thus bothers me less.
I do understand some content being tied to having the NPC in your party, it was done with the planar sphere and Valygar after all, however I just feel that the Neera quest could have been handled without her (her first quest anyway).
I hope (moreover, I'm sure) the Devs will in one way or another take into account what the community thinks about a way the future of this project should unfold. Constructive criticism and step-by-step defense of the current picture so much resemble a legal case. The only way for a judge to make a good decision is to listen to the both parties, to read through the arguments and to weight all cons and pros. So the more we talk about our thoughts both for and against the Beamdog approach to the EEs the better.
Which of these options was a good heroic character (which seems to be the most commonly played type) supposed to choose?
Okay, I'm bored so lets do some real analysis. Lets imagine you are a generic good/neutral character and you encounter Dorn. Start from the beginning
This is your first option
Ok, option one is out of the question for a character that isn't the world's wussiest Bhaalspawn
Option 2: neutral enough for anyone to choose, though I doubt all good characters would be so cordial
Option 3: the best option, I guess, though it shoe-horns you into the super snarky guy
so lets assume i choose option 3... this is where it gets bad
(first Minsc said that Dorn wasn't ugly, but that part is unimportant)
option 1: no, my neutral good gnome savior of Baldur's Gate certainly did not travel with a psychotic Blackguard on the Sword Coast
option 2: huh? did not mean it as a compliment
option 3: I'm snarky and not funny, but maybe this will be the option that leads me to stop his neferious plot! Sword meet evil!
but wait... after picking option 3 I get...
*cricket*...*cricket*
booinyoureyes: sigh... power word reload
lets try this again
lets try option 2 this time: I guess Dorn could remember me from our previous encounter, even if it wasn't friendly.
Lets see what happens
YES! Finally. Not one but TWO options that make sense! Lets try option 2 first! I'm so excited
-_-
After that we end up with the first picture I mentioned before
power word reload, lets get back to the two GOOD options from before
This time lets choose option 1! We will find sanity in all this madness!
So Dorn, you can't be seeking redemption can you? thats just crazy talk!
Lets see where this ends up. Must be somewhere where I can confront this dude in a way that makes sense!
o.0?
Booinyoureyes: grrr... enough is enough! I will do this right or I will not do this at all!
power word: reload
okay, I guess this is one of the only thing that the game lets my character do that makes sense
Ha! I'll show him a fight! At least I will have the satisfaction of beating him in a straight battle!
but wait...
-_-
"Life... is so hollow"
Just for the record I actually love the game, and give it a 9.5 on every poll on this forum. I don't mean to give the impression that I think the game sucks or anything like that, I just don't like how every criticism is met with derision and/or dismissed.
(I'm sure some could, but I can't imagine that being common)
- It's been mentioned by others, but the new content ain't seamless. The art style of the portraits, the voices, the area artwork, the bugs and the battles themselves don't feel quite like BG.
- He claims to have fixed a bug with trolls, while trolls remain one of the buggiest enemies in the game.
- I think he is quite dismissive of the amount of bugs in the game, and this statement is a bit of a lie: "fix bugs as we find them, add new features as we think them up and update our fans to new versions of the game" considering that it's been a while since the last patch (and it really needs one), Android has been prioritised over patching the game, and there are some really nice ideas in the feature requests forum (admittedly outnumbered by bad/unfeasible ones) which should be in the game.
edit: apparently that is a bug. I thought I was going nuts!
I'd like to point out here that when it came to problems with my game, I would come here and post them and a moderator or whatever (usually Jalily) would usually come immediately and fix it.
Some of them weren't even bugs, I'd just be like "HELP, I messed up my Bard Stronghold! What do I do?" and then literally within a half hour Jalily just came and told me what to type into the CLUAConsole to fix my problem.
I think that is awesome and the best "feature" of the EE
My problem is that bugs happened so frequently and I found myself coming here so often that my immersion into the game was completely broken, and that patching the game properly isn't a priority.
If I bought the game for how much it fleshed out Faldorn's character, I would also have bought it for a strange reason. Because it wasn't part of the advertised features of the game, and in fact wasn't actually in the game.
I do in fact have the right to make a judgment on someone else's argument (goodness knows @booinyoureyes made several judgments on mine). That does not deny @booinyoureyes the right to buy the game for whatever reason he likes. I just think it's peculiar to argue "lots of people bought the game for new content", when said new content was not an advertised feature of the game and does not in fact in game add up to very much content at all.
So, by the same token, paladins should also be showing up at almost every map transition to hunt you down, because you're a Bhaalspawn?
Also, there should be about a thousand paladins fighting Irenicus, and Bodhi and all her vampires should have been hunted down and slain before you even arrived in the city?
Because they could find out about those things with divine magic, too.
Heck, there should really be no living villains left in the world, because paladins? Why do the Shadow Thieves still exist? Why did Sarevok not get smitten before he made it to Candlekeep? Why does your chaotic evil charname not get killed during the opening cutscene of the game? Yes. And that actually happens. Dorn gets hunted down and attacked for his actions more than once. This is part of why he turns on his patron, as he realises the reckless things he's being forced to do are going to get him killed. It's sort of the entire crux of Dorn's plotline, I'm not sure how you missed it. In case you did, he gets attacked again in Throne of Bhaal, too. I don't believe they are possible; at least, in my game the temple remained deserted afterwards. It is an immersion-breaker for you that you can kill a cleric and not immediately get killed by doomsquads carrying out retributive strikes? I got bad news for you, then. That guy who was poisoning the mines at Nashkel? He was also a cleric (of Cyric). By all rights, your charname shouldn't have lived long enough to fight Sarevok, thus rendering the Dorn plotline irrelevant.
I honestly have no idea why you think b follows from a here. It doesn't anywhere else in the game, original or EE. Certain people are arbitrarily unkillable, but aside from that, you can gank a hell of a lot more powerful, important and influential people than "some cleric in a temple" and this does not produce a timed Game Over where 40 holy warriors kick down the inn door and vapourise your charname.
You can kill everybody in every temple in the city, if you want. This was possible in the original game. It did not auto-kill you. It's not even very hard. Why did that not break your immersion?
Before you say "Well, no plot told you to do that", in the Maevar questline for the thieve's guild, one of the possible missions is to steal sacred artifacts from the temple of Lathander, which turns everyone inside hostile at you (and if you're nicer, you're stealing from Talos instead, not exactly an improvement). And yet, somehow you can still finish the game without having to fight off doomsquads of paladins at every turn.
Clearly we don't find eachother very agreeable, and it would be best to not invite the other to join in on other discussions that don't involve them, especially after explicitly saying you have no interest in doing so.
Also the player is not allowed to deal with him properly. How dare you. Dorn is there to be cool, not to deal with silly things like intelligence players who want to be heroic and good and not stupid. Don't you know any good character dealing with him would obviously be intimidated or snarky? It makes perfect sense.
Also some returning characters from BG have a "Arn't you suppose to be dead?" option in their dialogue. I would have *really* appreciated this for Dorn since he actually did die in my playthrough. I was doing a perma-death thing with NPCs and a ghoul got him good.
Truth be told, I have no problem with Dorn in concept or character, but the way the world reacts to him is a sign that the writers were a bit too in love with his character.
I'm working (rather slowly) on a NPC mod and one of my biggest goals is making the character actually fit in with the existing cast instead of being all super special.
Minsc (has Berserker rage as a ranger, and has an unavailable animal companion), Dynaheir (innate slow poison ability), Coran (illegal dex and illegal three dots in bows), Yeslick (innate dispel magic), Alora (super-good item unusable by anyone else), Safana (innate charm animal), Branwen (innate spiritual weapon), Xan (super-good item unusable by anyone else), Faldorn (innate summon dread wolf), Quayle (innate turn invisible), Edwin (lolbetterwizardthanthecharnamecouldeverbe), Viconia (illegal race with high magic resistance that she shouldn't even have as a surface-living drow), Eldoth (innate poison arrows creation), Tiax (innate summon ghast), Aerie (illegal race giving an otherwise unavailable cleric/mage combination), Mazzy (a whole slew of innate powers), Anomen (gains six points of Wisdom instantly from doing his personal quest), Jan (significant amounts of unique and powerful equipment), Haer'Dalis (illegal race, illegal amount of proficiency dots in short swords), Sarevok (randomly does over 200 damage per hit), Hexxat (vampire with innate powers and super-high stats), Wilson (he's a bear). That's not limited to Dorn.
If I can use the term Mary Sue its pretty much the defining trait of their sort of character. When you write a good character you have to see the world from all perspectives. Even the villains and minor characters. Get into their heads and see the world through their views as well. Make a world about everyone, not just your character, even if their central.
One thought in my mind is this. If you want your character to be scary and evil, its important to not have the other characters react as if he is. He must simply *be* scary and evil.