Well, if we're going to start classifying animals as evil, then I nominate Cuckoos. Evil, evil things. Putting them inside clocks makes them even more evil, especially when they pop out during important scenes of my favorite shows or movies.
Are we really asking 'why is hexxat evil' or are we asking 'why are vampires automatically evil'? I will attempt to answer the latter.
From the wiki on vampires in the forgotten realms, it is clear that vampires have something broken within them when they are 'turned'. They become sociopathic and predatory. They believe themselves superior to others, and will use and discard anyone they deem weaker or below them(which is pretty nearly everyone, unless they prove otherwise).
This is the discussion about Supernatural, right? Nothing wrong with conflicted gay demonic/angelic/demonic-again/redeeming undeath/probably demonic again love between two handsome adults is there? Wait, why i watched 9 seasons of this shit i'll never understand...What were we talking about?
Hexxat's personality and behaviour is surely come across as Neutral alignment.
Unfortunately under DnD rule being Vampire automatically translate as being Evil. It's a very "racist/prejudice" point of view. Where an entire group/race of FREE THINKING beings being judged as evil. The same way as being Orcs, Ogre, Gnoll, etc...
If it's up to me, I will do away with "Alignment" systems in DnD. It's really stupid to categorized people as "Good", "Evil"...
Good and Evil is a very 2 dimensional point of view, there is no depth to it. It's cartoonish, Childlike way of thinking of the world and human's actions. The world is a shade of grey! So body does good all the time and neither anybody does evil all the time. The world is full of people doing whatever they think is BEST for them.
1) Alignment is not about perception, alignment is about BEING. Vampires are not titled as Evil because of some prejudice, it's because they are evil. They become undead, powered by negative energy. That's Evil. They don't just grow fangs, go pale and the sun burns them. They are transformed completely, their very nature changes.
Orcs are evil because of both nature and nurture. They are conquering, rampaging, bloodthirsty and savage people that believe in survival of the fittest and don't care for other life other than their own. That's evil.
If you get vampirised in DnD, you automatically become evil. If you vampirise a Paladin, they become INSTANTLY Lawful Evil and Fallen.
2) "Good and evil are not philosophical concepts in the D&D game. They are the forces that define the cosmos." - Player's Handbook 3.5E. This is a fact in ADnD as well. Look at Planescape.
There are beings of absolute Good (Celestials), absolute Evil (Fiends), absolute Law (Modrons) and absolute Chaos (Slaadi).
Good, Evil, Law and Chaos are absolute FORCES in DnD. There are planes of existence that are dedicated to every alignment (Lawful Evil Baator/Nine Hells, Chaotic Evil Abyss, Lawful Good Celestia, Chaotic Good Arvandor/Olympus).
If you do away with alignment in DnD, prepare to change a ton of races, classes, spells, items, creatures, planes and gods as well.
DnD/Forgotten Realms is not real world or medieval Europe for that matter.
1) Alignment is not about perception, alignment is about BEING. Vampires are not titled as Evil because of some prejudice, it's because they are evil. They become undead, powered by negative energy. That's Evil. They don't just grow fangs, go pale and the sun burns them. They are transformed completely, their very nature changes.
Orcs are evil because of both nature and nurture. They are conquering, rampaging, bloodthirsty and savage people that believe in survival of the fittest and don't care for other life other than their own. That's evil.
If you get vampirised in DnD, you automatically become evil. If you vampirise a Paladin, they become INSTANTLY Lawful Evil and Fallen.
2) "Good and evil are not philosophical concepts in the D&D game. They are the forces that define the cosmos." - Player's Handbook 3.5E. This is a fact in ADnD as well. Look at Planescape.
There are beings of absolute Good (Celestials), absolute Evil (Fiends), absolute Law (Modrons) and absolute Chaos (Slaadi).
Good, Evil, Law and Chaos are absolute FORCES in DnD. There are planes of existence that are dedicated to every alignment (Lawful Evil Baator/Nine Hells, Chaotic Evil Abyss, Lawful Good Celestia, Chaotic Good Arvandor/Olympus).
If you do away with alignment in DnD, prepare to change a ton of races, classes, spells, items, creatures, planes and gods as well.
DnD/Forgotten Realms is not real world or medieval Europe for that matter.
It's good to make a distinction between FR and D&D as it's certainly possible for D&D to be more morally ambiguous if the DM chooses.
FR is not twilight. Hexxat is a vampire powered by negative energy. She doesn't sparkle.
It's good to make a distinction between FR and D&D as it's certainly possible for D&D to be more morally ambiguous if the DM chooses.
You can make DnD into anything. Making Paladins generic templars, druids into tribal shamans and demons into alien Lovecraftian monsters.
But default DnD has specific rules about alignment and if one thing changes, then you need to change a bunch of other stuff that depend on alignment rules.
Anne Rice shall sparkle perpetually in pandemonumbojumbonium for making this topic even moderately relevant. It's like arguing the morality of Call of Duty using Minecraft as source material.
1) Alignment is not about perception, alignment is about BEING. Vampires are not titled as Evil because of some prejudice, it's because they are evil. They become undead, powered by negative energy. That's Evil. They don't just grow fangs, go pale and the sun burns them. They are transformed completely, their very nature changes.
Orcs are evil because of both nature and nurture. They are conquering, rampaging, bloodthirsty and savage people that believe in survival of the fittest and don't care for other life other than their own. That's evil.
If you get vampirised in DnD, you automatically become evil. If you vampirise a Paladin, they become INSTANTLY Lawful Evil and Fallen.
2) "Good and evil are not philosophical concepts in the D&D game. They are the forces that define the cosmos." - Player's Handbook 3.5E. This is a fact in ADnD as well. Look at Planescape.
There are beings of absolute Good (Celestials), absolute Evil (Fiends), absolute Law (Modrons) and absolute Chaos (Slaadi).
Good, Evil, Law and Chaos are absolute FORCES in DnD. There are planes of existence that are dedicated to every alignment (Lawful Evil Baator/Nine Hells, Chaotic Evil Abyss, Lawful Good Celestia, Chaotic Good Arvandor/Olympus).
If you do away with alignment in DnD, prepare to change a ton of races, classes, spells, items, creatures, planes and gods as well.
DnD/Forgotten Realms is not real world or medieval Europe for that matter.
It's good to make a distinction between FR and D&D as it's certainly possible for D&D to be more morally ambiguous if the DM chooses.
FR is not twilight. Hexxat is a vampire powered by negative energy. She doesn't sparkle.
So are you saying, in DnD "Being" of Evil are Evil independent (and regardless) of their perceptions and actions. Somehow I doubt that... playing DnD so far, "Evil" races are hopelessly evil. Kick a puppy kind of evil!
Perhaps "Officially" DnD intend for alignment to be as you said... about "Beingness". But during the application of this concept, DnD writers can't help but get carried over by this concept while disregarding that FREE THINKING beings (orcs, gnolls, ogres, even vampires) have FREE wills regardless of their upbringing and cultures. They can choose to do good or evil.
Example being is Drizzt, being a DROW, a "being" of EVIL alignment. But out of free-will to disregard his upbringing and culture and be a force of good instead.
Why can't characters such as Vampire, Orcs, Ogres, etc be the same in DnD?
To be honest, if it's up to me I would do away with Alignment at all! To categorize an entire race or beings as "Evil" or "Good" is too 2 dimensional and cartoonish.
I'm incline to go with Dragon Age's method. Where there is no alignment, just a bunch of characters doing what they think is best for them. It is up to the players to judge them good or bad. There are alot of depths in Dragon Age's characters most of their actions cannot easily perceived as "Good" or "Evil", it's a matter of perceptions and opinions. More of a broad shade of Grey than Black or White.
Many monsters are evil because they act evil, therefore they are evil. There are exceptions but most monsters are evil because that's how they were raised, that's what their nature is and that's their gods are.
In short, many monsters are like that either because that's what they know or because if they didn't kill, they would be killed or beat up by their tribe. Such as orcs or gnolls etc.
In the case of Drow, no they are not evil by nature. But by nurture. They were raised in an evil society by evil gods where it's about survival of the fittest. And because they consort with demons and undead or summon them.
Good Drow are supported by Eilistraee, a Chaotic Good Drow goddess and are supposed to be 25% of the total drow population. Drizzt is not the only exception.
We already said why vampires are evil. They are undead beings powered by negative energy. Positive energy damages them. They are self-centered and have no problems about killing innocents, that's evil.
Once again, if you remove alignment from DnD, prepare to change a ton of other stuff.
There's some fascinating rethinking of the nature of D&D vampires going on in Rich Burlew's Order of the Stick webcomic currently. It's been causing quite a bit of stir and debate on the Giant in the Playground forums.
***The rest of this post contains spoilers for anyone who has not read the comic or does not know the story of Hexxat***
What he's done is to write a story where a main character, Durkon the Lawful Good Cleric of Thor, gets vampirized. Over the course of the story, it is revealed that what is left of the Durkon that everyone knew has his soul trapped in the undead creature's mind, able to look on with horror, but unable to act. Meanwhile, the evil negative energy that animates the vampire coalesces into a negative energy, evil version of the original consciousness, with full access to the host's memories and newly vampirized body, and an agenda of its own.
In Durkon's case, now affectionately referred to as "Durkula", the goddess Hel has opportunistically intervened to infuse the vampire spirit with the consciousness of her own priest. We refer to him as "High Priest of Hel", or "HPoH". In order to fulfil his mission, he needs to convince Durkon's friends that he is still the Durkon they always knew, so he interacts regularly with Durkon's imprisoned soul trying to gain more information.
The complete ins and outs of how this story will work out remain unrevealed at this point, as the storyline is still in progress. So, Oots fans are debating and arguing a lot about what it all means.
I think it's a fascinating new way to think about vampires in general, but especially D&D vampires.
Applied to Hexxat's case, the evilness that now animates and controls her body would be an evil shadow of the woman she might have once been. Her original, possibly not-evil soul seems to be strong, and fighting very hard to end the abomination that has been made of her body. But as long as her body walks around as a vampire, murdering daily for food and fun, it is an *evil* creature.
Good Drow are supported by Eilistraee, a Chaotic Good Drow goddess and are supposed to be 25% of the total drow population. Drizzt is not the only exception.
...
@Archaos where did you get this info? This seems really high to me
Indeed. All natural, thinking creatures have the potential of being of all alignments, even if their species as a whole might be predisposed towards particular behaviours and morals. Undead, however, are unnatural beings and opposed to life in all forms. Unlike natural creatures they literally cannot be anything but evil as their existence, fueled by negative energy, is evil - only a small handful of exceptions exist. Orcs and Ogres, and all similar monsters, is something completely different and not comparable and don't have the "always evil" stamp in the majority of DnD's editions.
Good Drow are supported by Eilistraee, a Chaotic Good Drow goddess and are supposed to be 25% of the total drow population. Drizzt is not the only exception.
...
@Archaos where did you get this info? This seems really high to me
Yup. "I’d say a little more than 22% or so of all drow in Faerun worship Eilistraee." Close enough.
10-12% is actually her clergy. Most people worship various gods for various reasons. So again, 22% is the number of Eilistraeen worshippers, even if they worship others gods among her.
Yea but the 10-12% are going to be the only ones that we know are good aligned. The rest we don't know (they might venerate different gods but not follow their teachings). So we don't know that 25% of the drow population is good aligned.
Not necessarily. You could be Chaotic Neutral and worship Eilistraee as a priest (she is CG), you could also be Chaotic Neutral and worship Lolth.
But, to make it simple, 22% is the number of the non-evil typical Underdark drow.
Also, typically elves (drow included) would vastly prefer to worship their own gods (Seldarine and Dark Seldarine) than worship some other god.
And Eilistraee was made specifically for that purpose. To give a god for good or non-evil drow to worship. And yes, Drizzt is worshipping Mielikki but he's an exception to the exception, in short.
To go back on topic, non-evil drow are more than some people think they are. Drow are evil because they were raised that way, not born. They are still elves.
And to add more about vampires, they are evil because: undead + negative energy = evil. They become corrupted and twisted by the energies that turned them. Saying that vampires shouldn't be evil because they're free-willed, is like teaching a dog not to bark ever again. It's against their very nature.
@bernardchu ... Good Drow are supported by Eilistraee, a Chaotic Good Drow goddess and are supposed to be 25% of the total drow population. Drizzt is not the only exception. ...
Not anymore, she was killed by Lolth a few years back. As were every other god in the Dark Seldarine except for Ghaunadaur, who actually turned out to be an elder evil and kicked her ass. Then he went and left the Demonweb Pits and made a plane for himself..
And drow were actually cursed by the Seldarine, so they might not have as much choice as people give them. Good drow are far too common in novels. But that only applies to Ilythiiri-drow these days, Miyeritar-drow were pardoned and the curse was lifted from them.
1) Alignment is not about perception, alignment is about BEING. Vampires are not titled as Evil because of some prejudice, it's because they are evil. They become undead, powered by negative energy. That's Evil. They don't just grow fangs, go pale and the sun burns them. They are transformed completely, their very nature changes.
I can tell you now that Alignment in DnD IS about perception, not about BEING.
I don't know if you have played Planescape Torment or not, but there is an NPC who is a Succubus with Lawful Neutral alignment. Whatever happen to being Ta'nari? born, raised and "powered" in plane of Chaotic Evil.
And in Forgotten Realms there is an elven Vampire character named Jander Sunstar who is Chaotic Neutral alignment. Whatever happen to "They don't just grow fangs, go pale and the sun burns them. They are transformed completely, their very nature changes."......???
If what you said is true, the ALL vampires are Evil because... (well, read your own comment). And ALL demons and devils are Evil because... (well, read your own comment too).
Comments
And should you have spent the night partying...horror!
Though swoopbirds come in at a close second! Man, I hate those things!
They are also fond of eating my cacti, for some odd reason.
Anything that can fly and poop is definitely evil!
Maybe that is why colored dragons are evil?! Imagine the...mass! O_o
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/30383/oots-latest-developments
From the wiki on vampires in the forgotten realms, it is clear that vampires have something broken within them when they are 'turned'. They become sociopathic and predatory. They believe themselves superior to others, and will use and discard anyone they deem weaker or below them(which is pretty nearly everyone, unless they prove otherwise).
It's an illuminating read. http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Vampire
Unfortunately under DnD rule being Vampire automatically translate as being Evil. It's a very "racist/prejudice" point of view. Where an entire group/race of FREE THINKING beings being judged as evil. The same way as being Orcs, Ogre, Gnoll, etc...
It's really stupid to categorized people as "Good", "Evil"...
Good and Evil is a very 2 dimensional point of view, there is no depth to it. It's cartoonish, Childlike way of thinking of the world and human's actions. The world is a shade of grey! So body does good all the time and neither anybody does evil all the time. The world is full of people doing whatever they think is BEST for them.
1) Alignment is not about perception, alignment is about BEING. Vampires are not titled as Evil because of some prejudice, it's because they are evil.
They become undead, powered by negative energy. That's Evil.
They don't just grow fangs, go pale and the sun burns them. They are transformed completely, their very nature changes.
Orcs are evil because of both nature and nurture. They are conquering, rampaging, bloodthirsty and savage people that believe in survival of the fittest and don't care for other life other than their own. That's evil.
If you get vampirised in DnD, you automatically become evil. If you vampirise a Paladin, they become INSTANTLY Lawful Evil and Fallen.
2) "Good and evil are not philosophical concepts in the D&D game. They are the forces that define the cosmos." - Player's Handbook 3.5E.
This is a fact in ADnD as well. Look at Planescape.
There are beings of absolute Good (Celestials), absolute Evil (Fiends), absolute Law (Modrons) and absolute Chaos (Slaadi).
Good, Evil, Law and Chaos are absolute FORCES in DnD. There are planes of existence that are dedicated to every alignment (Lawful Evil Baator/Nine Hells, Chaotic Evil Abyss, Lawful Good Celestia, Chaotic Good Arvandor/Olympus).
If you do away with alignment in DnD, prepare to change a ton of races, classes, spells, items, creatures, planes and gods as well.
DnD/Forgotten Realms is not real world or medieval Europe for that matter.
FR is not twilight. Hexxat is a vampire powered by negative energy. She doesn't sparkle.
But default DnD has specific rules about alignment and if one thing changes, then you need to change a bunch of other stuff that depend on alignment rules.
Somehow I doubt that... playing DnD so far, "Evil" races are hopelessly evil. Kick a puppy kind of evil!
Perhaps "Officially" DnD intend for alignment to be as you said... about "Beingness". But during the application of this concept, DnD writers can't help but get carried over by this concept while disregarding that FREE THINKING beings (orcs, gnolls, ogres, even vampires) have FREE wills regardless of their upbringing and cultures. They can choose to do good or evil.
Example being is Drizzt, being a DROW, a "being" of EVIL alignment. But out of free-will to disregard his upbringing and culture and be a force of good instead.
Why can't characters such as Vampire, Orcs, Ogres, etc be the same in DnD?
To be honest, if it's up to me I would do away with Alignment at all! To categorize an entire race or beings as "Evil" or "Good" is too 2 dimensional and cartoonish.
I'm incline to go with Dragon Age's method. Where there is no alignment, just a bunch of characters doing what they think is best for them. It is up to the players to judge them good or bad. There are alot of depths in Dragon Age's characters most of their actions cannot easily perceived as "Good" or "Evil", it's a matter of perceptions and opinions. More of a broad shade of Grey than Black or White.
Many monsters are evil because they act evil, therefore they are evil.
There are exceptions but most monsters are evil because that's how they were raised, that's what their nature is and that's their gods are.
In short, many monsters are like that either because that's what they know or because if they didn't kill, they would be killed or beat up by their tribe. Such as orcs or gnolls etc.
In the case of Drow, no they are not evil by nature. But by nurture. They were raised in an evil society by evil gods where it's about survival of the fittest. And because they consort with demons and undead or summon them.
Good Drow are supported by Eilistraee, a Chaotic Good Drow goddess and are supposed to be 25% of the total drow population. Drizzt is not the only exception.
We already said why vampires are evil. They are undead beings powered by negative energy. Positive energy damages them. They are self-centered and have no problems about killing innocents, that's evil.
Once again, if you remove alignment from DnD, prepare to change a ton of other stuff.
***The rest of this post contains spoilers for anyone who has not read the comic or does not know the story of Hexxat***
What he's done is to write a story where a main character, Durkon the Lawful Good Cleric of Thor, gets vampirized. Over the course of the story, it is revealed that what is left of the Durkon that everyone knew has his soul trapped in the undead creature's mind, able to look on with horror, but unable to act. Meanwhile, the evil negative energy that animates the vampire coalesces into a negative energy, evil version of the original consciousness, with full access to the host's memories and newly vampirized body, and an agenda of its own.
In Durkon's case, now affectionately referred to as "Durkula", the goddess Hel has opportunistically intervened to infuse the vampire spirit with the consciousness of her own priest. We refer to him as "High Priest of Hel", or "HPoH". In order to fulfil his mission, he needs to convince Durkon's friends that he is still the Durkon they always knew, so he interacts regularly with Durkon's imprisoned soul trying to gain more information.
The complete ins and outs of how this story will work out remain unrevealed at this point, as the storyline is still in progress. So, Oots fans are debating and arguing a lot about what it all means.
I think it's a fascinating new way to think about vampires in general, but especially D&D vampires.
Applied to Hexxat's case, the evilness that now animates and controls her body would be an evil shadow of the woman she might have once been. Her original, possibly not-evil soul seems to be strong, and fighting very hard to end the abomination that has been made of her body. But as long as her body walks around as a vampire, murdering daily for food and fun, it is an *evil* creature.
Ed Greenwood apparently. From the sounds of things though the actual number of drow who only worship her is probably 10%.
Yup. "I’d say a little more than 22% or so of all drow in Faerun worship Eilistraee."
Close enough.
10-12% is actually her clergy. Most people worship various gods for various reasons.
So again, 22% is the number of Eilistraeen worshippers, even if they worship others gods among her.
But, to make it simple, 22% is the number of the non-evil typical Underdark drow.
Also, typically elves (drow included) would vastly prefer to worship their own gods (Seldarine and Dark Seldarine) than worship some other god.
And Eilistraee was made specifically for that purpose. To give a god for good or non-evil drow to worship.
And yes, Drizzt is worshipping Mielikki but he's an exception to the exception, in short.
To go back on topic, non-evil drow are more than some people think they are.
Drow are evil because they were raised that way, not born. They are still elves.
And to add more about vampires, they are evil because: undead + negative energy = evil.
They become corrupted and twisted by the energies that turned them.
Saying that vampires shouldn't be evil because they're free-willed, is like teaching a dog not to bark ever again.
It's against their very nature.
And drow were actually cursed by the Seldarine, so they might not have as much choice as people give them. Good drow are far too common in novels. But that only applies to Ilythiiri-drow these days, Miyeritar-drow were pardoned and the curse was lifted from them.
I don't know if you have played Planescape Torment or not, but there is an NPC who is a Succubus with Lawful Neutral alignment. Whatever happen to being Ta'nari? born, raised and "powered" in plane of Chaotic Evil.
And in Forgotten Realms there is an elven Vampire character named Jander Sunstar who is Chaotic Neutral alignment. Whatever happen to "They don't just grow fangs, go pale and the sun burns them. They are transformed completely, their very nature changes."......???
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Jander_Sunstar
If what you said is true, the ALL vampires are Evil because... (well, read your own comment).
And ALL demons and devils are Evil because... (well, read your own comment too).