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Why is Hexxat evil exactly?

NihilusNihilus Member Posts: 192
edited February 2014 in Baldur's Gate II: Enhanced Edition
Seems to me like she is easily the most apologetic NPC in the game. When faced with blatant prejudice, she just backs away for no apparent reason. On the other hand, most 'good' characters become very confrontational over far more pettier things. Any thoughts?
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Comments

  • enqenqenqenq Member Posts: 499
    Eh what? Prideful = evil?

    I would say the very first thing she does when you meet her should answer your question, anyway.
  • NihilusNihilus Member Posts: 192
    Humility sure isn't an evil trait.

    And the very first thing she does, IIRC, is apologizing to Clara and telling her how she has no choice but to kill her.
  • CoutelierCoutelier Member Posts: 1,282
    Yeah, it's the killing by draining all the lifeblood out of someone that's generally frowned upon. Obviously all characters, even good ones, do have to sometimes kill people in the course of their adventures, it's just that Hexxat is rather indiscriminate about who she kills. She admits in at least one banter that she sneaks away from the party sometimes and murders innocents, and shows no remorse about it nor seems to have any understanding of why that would be a problem to some people.
  • abacusabacus Member Posts: 1,307
    I've only taken her in the classic evil party where she does give the impression you mention, but I've heard that in a good party she tends to "show her teeth" a bit more banter-wise.
  • NihilusNihilus Member Posts: 192
    edited February 2014
    Silverstar said:

    Anyhow, can you imagine the amount of crap that would clog up the forum if she -wasn't- evil? There's allready enough complaints about her romance, class kit and anti-dying mechanics. If she were good or neutral people would freak out even more than they allready do and noone needs that.

    It is not so much that I would have Hexxat's alignment set to non-evil; but I would prefer if her dialogue reflected her supposedly evil alignment. I mean, take a look at these samples:

    ---

    Hexxat: Thank you, Mazzy.

    Mazzy: You have nothing to thank me for.

    Hexxat: I saw what you did in that last fight. You put yourself in harm's way to protect me.

    Mazzy: That was for CHARNAME, not you. As long as HE needs you, I will treat you like any other member of our party.

    Hexxat: I appreciate it.

    Mazzy: I am not required to be anything beyond cordial, however, I've no desire to speak with you unless it concerns the welfare of our group.

    Hexxat: I'm sorry to hear that.

    Mazzy: I am sorry to say it. But it's the truth nevertheless.

    ---

    Hexxat: You've become quite the archmage, Nalia.

    Nalia: What do you want?

    Hexxat: To offer some advice. You are powerful, but do not...

    Nalia: I can do without your advice, thank you.

    Hexxat: Nothing good comes of hubris, mage. Remember that.

    ---

    Hexxat: Can I help you, Aerie?

    Aerie: What? No! No.

    Hexxat: Forgive me. You look like you've something on your mind. Something you'd like to say to me, perhaps?

    Aerie: Say to you? I... No. No. Sorry.

    Hexxat: For what?

    Aerie: For... I'm sorry.

    Hexxat: What are you apologizing for? You've done nothing wrong.

    Aerie: I don't know... I... I just...

    Hexxat: Feel sorry.

    Aerie: Yes. I guess.

    Hexxat: You're my friend, Aerie. I don't want you to be sorry. I want you to be happy.

    Aerie: You think we're friends?

    Hexxat: Aren't we?

    Aerie: No... I... Maybe? No... You're a vampire.

    Hexxat: There's not much I can do about that.

    Aerie: Yes, but... I can't talk to you about this.

    Hexxat: That's a shame... I'm better qualified to talk about it than most. I see I'm making you nervous... Now I'm the one who must apologize.

    Aerie: No, don't... I mean...

    Hexxat: I'll go now. If you stop being sorry and want to talk to me about... anything, really... by all means, let me now.

    ---

    You would expect these words from a neutral good character.
  • karnor00karnor00 Member Posts: 680
    edited February 2014
    Double post.
  • NihilusNihilus Member Posts: 192
    karnor00 said:

    Or from an evil character who was pretending to be nice and caring. It's much easier to stab someone in the back after they have let their guard down.

    Is there any reason to assume this is the case here though? Does Hexxat ever turn on the party?

  • HeindrichHeindrich Member, Moderator Posts: 2,959
    @Nihilus

    I'm really curious now... what was Aerie and Hexxat talking about? Something that Hexxat feels well qualified to talk about, but makes Aerie so uncomfortable?
  • elementelement Member Posts: 833
    edited February 2014
    you know as said above good manners and civility don't make you good especially when you murder people on a regular basis

    its worth considering that vampires hiding there nature is a pretty common trait among many vampire stories which very often present them as a 'wolf in sheep's clothing' in fact its a common trait of many villains full stop. Hexxat could be less civil to party members but what would she gain from it she is after all concerned primarily with herself and her own well being making enemies is after all rarely more beneficial then friends. And the last thing something like Hexxat needs it a mob coming after her with pitch forks.

    Also if I was being cynical I might say they were trying to make her appeal to as many people as possible and so gave her a lot of congenial dialogue to try and make her as accommodating as possible to different players which might also explain why so few characters respond hostilely to her when really a large portion of the cast should just want her dead on sight
    Post edited by element on
  • CoutelierCoutelier Member Posts: 1,282
    edited February 2014
    Heindrich said:

    @Nihilus

    I'm really curious now... what was Aerie and Hexxat talking about? Something that Hexxat feels well qualified to talk about, but makes Aerie so uncomfortable?

    Well, Vampire's often have that effect on people. But there's another banter they have:

    Basically, Aerie tells Hexxat that she's seen her sneaking out at night and noticed blood stains when she comes back and accuses her of killing innocent people... and Hex just admits that she does. This doesn't go down well, although it's a long time before Aerie does anything about it.


    So, for Hexxat being evil... the murdering is quite a big reason.
  • HeindrichHeindrich Member, Moderator Posts: 2,959
    I think @Silverstar nailed it. "Monsters are evil" is a fairly established convention in fantasy fiction/games, and the AD&D alignment system is fairly arbitrary and not (as far as I know) established on some sort of serious system of philosophical morality.

    Personally I'd consider most selfish and rational behaviour to be neutral. And although I cannot comment on Hexxat in particular, vampires are traditionally supposed to need to feed on the blood of living people in order to survive, which makes them more like an predatory animal that feeds on human beings.

    From a human perspective that may seem horrible and 'evil', but it is the natural law of the world. Does a wolf care about the innocence or not of the sheep it hunts? So why should vampires be overly bothered about which human being to target?

    Also as @Viconia_DeVir and others have pointed out, civility has nothing to do with good or evil intentions. There is a Chinese saying which roughly translates as "hiding daggers in a smile", which points exactly to this point.
  • elementelement Member Posts: 833
    edited February 2014
    Heindrich said:


    From a human perspective that may seem horrible and 'evil', but it is the natural law of the world. Does a wolf care about the innocence or not of the sheep it hunts? So why should vampires be overly bothered about which human being to target?

    yes but vampires aren't natural creatures in the way that a wolf is they are unnatural creatures that kill there own kind to extend there own unnatural life. If they were just a race that lived and died as any other you could make that argument. But, as any good druid knows vampires aren't part of natures great cycle they are a corruption of it.

    also as an aside, is it mandatory for vampires to kill? I don't know how the FR lore works in this respect

  • mlnevesemlnevese Member, Moderator Posts: 10,214
    @element The level drain when they bite would kill any non-adventurer in seconds.
  • MitchforkMitchfork Member Posts: 390
    Heindrich said:

    From a human perspective that may seem horrible and 'evil', but it is the natural law of the world. Does a wolf care about the innocence or not of the sheep it hunts? So why should vampires be overly bothered about which human being to target?

    The difference being that Hexxat retains her human mental abilities which doesn't absolve her of moral/ethical responsibilities that any other human would face.

    To play a clichéd hypothetical moral game- if someone threatened to kill you (assume they have provided enough proof for you to believe they will follow through and succeed 100% of the time) unless you killed one person each day, every day, for the remainder of your life- what would be the "D&D-alignment good" actions? There aren't very many, and I don't think Hexxat really meets that criteria. I would entertain arguments that she is some neutral alignment (perhaps even True Neutral) but Neutral Evil works well enough.

    Evil characters can still have genuine friends and loved ones, and will even behave selflessly under certain conditions. They just don't naturally tend towards doing so.
  • TwaniTwani Member Posts: 640
    Despite the sheer amount of bandits, guards for evil, and general 'guys who will attack you without mercy for no real reason' people you run in to during the game, Hexxat still goes out and drains her blood from townsfolk rather then this multitude of jerkfaces.

    That's not good. That's not even neutral.

    Hexxat is extremely civil, and does her best to work with characters no matter what their alignments and morals. That doesn't mean she's not draining blood of innocents, as your good characters will call her on (I believe Aerie in paticular does it during ToB). Hexxat might like to believe herself as good, but... draining blood of innocents rather then generic slavers and bandits. Not a good aligned move. I see no reason why your average good aligned character would put up with her.
  • MacHurtoMacHurto Member Posts: 731
    I agree on the OOTS reference above. Hexxat can perfectly co-exist with a good party that way. She trusts you with her coffin. Seems fair that you feed her in return
  • HeindrichHeindrich Member, Moderator Posts: 2,959
    @Mitchfork and @element (and others maybe), I accept your point that there is a difference between a sentient being like Hexxat and an instinctive animal like a wolf.

    But let's define a few parameters, and then I'd be interested to see your position then. Assume that:

    1) A vampire has no way of feeding off people without killing them.

    2) A vampire will die if it doesn't feed regularly.

    3) There is no convenient supply of 'bad people' to feed on.

    In this situation, are you saying that the only non-evil option a vampire has is to willingly die?

    Being a vampire complicates matters because a vampire is already dead, and it can be argued that seeking to prolong life via undeath and vampirism is evil itself, and the 'noble' thing for a vampire with a conscience is to surrender to absolute death.

    So... what if I add a 4th condition.

    4) Replace 'vampire' with 'blood elves', who are sentient beings who are mortal, but must drink the blood of other sentient beings to survive. Is this entire race, if it existed, irredeemably evil? And is extinction their only non-evil path?

  • meaglothmeagloth Member Posts: 3,806
    I would expect that Hexxat is a more subtle evil. the kind of person who is usually nice and fine but when it comes down to will feed you to the dogs for her own good. Not necessarily a in a planned out sort of way, but you will come to trust her and then she fails you when you need her most.
    It's the epitome of neutral evil. You keep you friends close until you need them no longer.
  • enqenqenqenq Member Posts: 499
    Heindrich said:

    In this situation, are you saying that the only non-evil option a vampire has is to willingly die?

    Is this still about Hexxat? 'cause 1) and 3) obviously don't apply to her.

    Anyway, on the brink of starvation most of us would do terrible things. I could see a good vampire killing an innocent in order to survive, but before long they would either willingly die, or become numb to the guilt... at which point their goodness would be questionable.
  • HeindrichHeindrich Member, Moderator Posts: 2,959
    @enqenq

    No I'm not talking about Hexxat, I don't know much about her to be honest, other than that she's a vampire and likely quite objectively evil.

    OP asked why is Hexxat evil, and raised objections primarily based on her civility, which has been refuted by most responses, including my first one. I then wanted to expand the question and ask 'what makes a vampire evil', is it the mere fact that they kill people, and what if they had no choice about it, what then?
  • mlnevesemlnevese Member, Moderator Posts: 10,214
    I think the core question here is Is all killing evil? Now that is a delicate question and it really depends on whether you believe in absolute morality or not. In the game world absolute morality is true and killing an evil being is a good act. In the real world I would have serious doubts to consider killing a good act.

    So considering the game world truths, she is evil because she chooses to feed from good beings. If her choice was to feed exclusively from evil beings she could even be seen as a good character.
  • MitchforkMitchfork Member Posts: 390
    edited February 2014
    Heindrich said:

    In this situation, are you saying that the only non-evil option a vampire has is to willingly die?

    I think that there is a certain argument to be made that doing what is necessary to survive could be a neutral action- it would depend on the scenario. I think that it would be very hard for a D&D-alignment "good" character to justify living as a vampire (or "Blood Elf") indefinitely. At the very least, the action itself (killing to remain alive) is not "good," and as the character performs the action again and again it becomes harder and harder to justify a "good" alignment.

    Now time for an analysis that was way more in-depth than was necessary:

    A race built around the concept of feeding creates a lot of other problems, such as sustainable food supply/growth. If you have a modest group of 20 "Blood Elves," the body toll over a year of feeding would be pretty immense. Even assuming a pretty lax feeding schedule (1 body per week per Blood Elf) that's over 1000 people a year by the time things are said and done. If we use the current world rate of natural increase of 1.14%/year (this number takes into account births/year as well as deaths/year) then they'd need to be feeding on a population of around 88,000 or they'd (eventually) run out of people to feed on.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited February 2014
    The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • MitchforkMitchfork Member Posts: 390
    Shandyr said:

    Mitchfork said:

    At the very least, the action itself (killing to remain alive) is not "good," and as the character performs the action again and again it becomes harder and harder to justify a "good" alignment.

    Isn't this what all characters have to do when they want to eat something?
    All of my Charnames are free-trade vegans.
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