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Any work of fantasy, in which evil won the day?

Demonoid_LimewireDemonoid_Limewire Member Posts: 424
in Off-Topic
I had been wondering... All fantasy worlds, across each and every media the are presented into, are most times (if not always) dominated by good guys at the end. Deus ex machina way, stupid and lucky way, asspull way, plot armor/plot hole way, political correct way, catharsis of the (anti)hero way et cetera, the list is very long.

Since most of you guys here find entertainment in fantasy realms and roleplaying, i want to ask you, if, when or how, you ever happened upon, even ONE fantasy setting/story/world, in which the bad/evil/antihero guy won at the end, or simply got exactly what he/she wanted. Excluding video games of course, that give you control of character, choice of action and moral freedom. Because i never happened myself upon even one for reference, and i would like to get a good read, or a watch, or a see through of one, in whatever media it might just happen to be on (movie, book, anime, manga, light novel...?). Any suggestions?
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  • KaltzorKaltzor Member Posts: 1,050
    Only ones that come in mind are stuff where the main protagonist is actually the "villain" of the series...

    I have not played them myself, but as far as I know, the Overlord games are a prime example of this kind of stuff...
  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,870
    Yeah, most authors somehow believe that it's an unwritten rule to let the good guys always win. And as @Kaltzor posted, the reverse is usually only true when the villian is at the same time also the protagonist of the story. Of course, there are also cases where both good and evil lose.. but I don't know if that's exactly what you're looking for.

    Anyway, have you tried Shinsekai Yori? It's an rather breathtaking dystopian anime with a truly twisted story to it. Elfen Lied and Gokukoku no Brynhildr could also be of interest to you. Or if you prefer works that are more about "evil vs. good" there are always Devilman, Devilman Lady and Violence Jack. And if you're counting undead fish robots as evil then perhaps GYO may e something for you as well.
  • Demonoid_LimewireDemonoid_Limewire Member Posts: 424
    edited February 2014
    True enough. Hm, i would also be interested in stories with a stalemate ending, in which no side wins (and actually both loose). This also happens to be pretty rare.

    Kami, thanks for the suggestions. One of them i have gone through already before (Elfen). Will now check the rest! Thanks for making my weekend interesting!
  • SkaffenSkaffen Member Posts: 709
    edited February 2014
    Definetely Game of Thrones. While there are some outright villains (and even that changes over the series) that come out ahead from time to time its main difference from standard fantasy fare that the good guys actually die. Noone is safe! Keeps you on your toes since you really worry about your favourites.
    Post edited by Skaffen on
  • ajwzajwz Member Posts: 4,122
    edited February 2014
    I agree with people saying game of thrones.
    Aside from that, japanese scifi/fantasy tends to be much richer and better written whether in manga or visual novel form. There can be a pretty thin line here, where realism in fantasy tends to bleed into the horror genre a bit, but for my money, a lot of western stuff (at least the popular stuff) tends to be thinly veiled wish fufillment stories
    Try the Zero Escape series (Nine Hours, Nine Persons, Nine Doors; Virtue's Last Reward) for the 3ds/vita which is a good example I have been playing recently.
  • HeindrichHeindrich Member, Moderator Posts: 2,959
    "The Romance of the Three Kingdoms"... yes it's pushing it, cos it's described as half-history, half-fiction. But it's the dramatised story of a civil war in Ancient China in the 3rd Century AD, popularised in the West by the Dynasty Warriors games.

    Basically Liu Bei and his sworn brothers are portrayed as the good guys, seeking to restore the fallen Han Dynasty, seen as the 'rightful' rulers of China. However, despite many 'heroics' and great sacrifice, including the deaths of all three brothers, the Shu-Han kingdom is eventually defeated by the 'villainous' usurpers of the Cao Clan, who are in turn are usurped by the even more sinister and cunning Sima Clan, who ultimately destroyed both of the other kingdoms and united China under their rule.

    To make matters worse, after the story ends, the Jin Dynasty headed by the Sima Clan disintegrates into anarchy within a few decades, and China is plunged into a hugely destructive and anarchic period of endless strife for over 300 years. (This is China's equivalent of the Dark Ages).
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,155
    edited February 2014
    @BelgarathMTH
    BelgarathMTH said:

    And that's why there's *no such thing* as "epic 'villainous' literature,"

    I think that there are some books, not many, just one series, Elric of Melibone, the protagonist is a complete anti-hero, and it's epic literature IIRC. I won't spoil you because I recommend you to read it, but I have to agree that it isn't completely evil, just 95%.
    EDIT: I misspeled your name *sigh* won't get tagged :/
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,653
    @CrevsDaak, no worry, I read your post. And, I would argue that there's a profound difference between "anti-hero" and "villain".

    By "villain", I mean puppy-kicking, hateful, sadistic, enemy of all love, EVIL person. I am not deploring the "anti-hero" in this thread. Early Han Solo in Star Wars Episode IV fits my definition of "anti-hero". Even Anakin could fit my definition of "anti-hero".

    The "anti-hero" always has some redeeming quality or qualities, or some path to redemption, usually through love or loyalty to an actual hero or heroine.

    That is not the "game" or "literature" that I see as being asked by this thread. I think the OP wants examples of games, literature, and/or film that will truly assist him or her to plunge his or her mind and heart into Darkness.

    And that attitude provokes me to want to fight. I'm a paladin/cleric at the core of my being. I can't help it, really. "Me see evil, me smash evil," as the more primitive parts of my brain give the biological imperative to my consciousness.

    Although, I am either blessed or cursed, depending on your point of view, with an intelligence and wisdom that gives me the ability to be rather loquacious about my anger against Evil, and, in the D&D world, to be given quite a bit of might and magic to do something about it - especially the "magic" part.
  • HeindrichHeindrich Member, Moderator Posts: 2,959
    The Ancient Greeks are famous for their tragedies, hence Greek Tragedy... I wonder if any of those stories have an 'evil triumphs' ending? I haven't read the Odyssey, but the Trojan War, as depicted in Troy (2004) certainly did not end with the victory of the 'good guys' by any means.
    Yes I know the movie was horribly inaccurate to both history and the the fictional work it is supposed to be derived from.


    The Japanese have some pretty perverse anime and games, I'm pretty sure there will be some where some sort of evil wins, though I don't know any personally.

    Anyways I somewhat share @BelgarathMTH's attitude to evil in gaming/fiction, particularly immersive roleplaying games. I mean I collected Chaos Space Marines in Warhammer 40K (cos their models looked cooler than the goodie-goodie Space Marines) and I've had a few rampages on Grand Theft Auto Vice City, which is oddly therapeutic (the last GTA game I played), but I could never seriously roleplay my Chaos army slaughtering a city, or being a murdering-loon in GTA.

    "Butt-kicking for goodness!"
  • scriverscriver Member Posts: 2,072
    First of all, I'm fairly befuddled by your assumption that anyone asking for examples of Evil winning is doing it because they're a horrible rotten person who enjoy evil in real life, @BelgarathMTH. That's an incredibly ridiculous leap to make.

    Secondly, it only counts as "Godwinning" if you're making an inappropriate comparison between something or someone to Nazis (or any similarly massively despised group or person). There are many discussions where bringing such up is reasonable and not fallacious - discussions of evil being one of them, for example, though insinuating people are like Hitler or Mao for wanting to discuss stories where evil wins does remain in Godwin territory.

    Lastly, Nietzsche has been widely misquoted and Maccivelli was being satirical in his "the Prince".
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  • jackjackjackjack Member Posts: 3,251
    edited February 2014
    There is an unspoken, seldom written, but well-adhered to rule among many writers that fiction must be moral, that this is the highest purpose of art. John Gardner spent his tragically short life studying and deconstructing it - he synthesized his thoughts on the subject in his book-length essay, On Moral Fiction, but is also responsible for classics such as Grendel, The Sunlight Dialogues, October Light, Nickel Mountain, and The Art of Fiction. Everything he ever wrote is worth your time to read, trust me.
  • BaldursCatBaldursCat Member Posts: 432
    edited February 2014
    You might want to consider Jacqueline Carey's 'The Sundering' (Banewrecker & Godslayer) - interestingly the same name the D&D overlords have chosen for the 5E reboot - if you want to read something that analyses the evil perspective this is worth a go as they're touted as The Lord of the Rings from the other side, they're very good on there own merits. That said though I'm not certain evil triumphs in them (Happy new year to you all BTW).

    On a related subject, are you watching the US version of House of Cards? If you are and you haven't seen the UK version you should, or read the books they're based on, they are as close as you'll get to evil being victorious.
  • jackjackjackjack Member Posts: 3,251
    edited February 2014
    Don't read Shakespeare's Richard III (Good Lord, did I just say that?)
    [Spoiler]It will spoil House of Cards for you.[/Spoiler]
    Happy New Year!
  • Demonoid_LimewireDemonoid_Limewire Member Posts: 424
    Oi, oi! Paladins and do gooders, no reason to grab Carsomyr! Yet... First of all, the definition of "evil" itself is blurred. It all comes down to human judgement and perception, which is far from identical and universal; usually, each and every person, has different interpretations of ideas and events!

    Right, there may not be any "evil won the day" works of fiction, but there are (or could be) many with simply an antihero as a protagonist. This i do not like, because in reality, much evil happens, and on top of that, many times over, it comes down to pass as good, through various tools, especially propaganda and lies (ex, political ones). Fiction does (and should) reflect aspects of reality (counting out fantasy of course), or draw inspiration from it through some ways. I myself find it pretty disturbing, the fact that no evil person ever makes it out as the top dog, in fantasy and literature. At least, counting all video games out.

    In video games, there is always dungeon keeper, overlord (as someone else said), all games with grey, amoral, ugly worlds that give you the right of choice (and consequence) like the Witcher, GTA (actually, besides entertaining, it is pretty evil and vile, and i like it), but usually, most of these, give you some sort of punishment instead of reward, when you overabuse your bloodthirstiness (GTA sends cops and agents to kill you, in the witcher patrolling infantry attacks you if you kill innocent bystanders at night, etc). And those random crossgenre gems, like Arx Fatalis, in which you make out your character what you want him to be; if you first finish the important quests, then you can kill everyone (even the king!), rob the peasantry and break in every house, at your leisure, even wipe out the entire world from anything living if you desire so! But i wasn't looking for a video game, oo...

    Finally, about villains, many had been more good than your average good person, or even more, even self-sacrificing, before an accident happened and things went terribly wrong. And some writers of fantasy/fiction, choose to allow them reach the epitome of power there is in their respective universe, even allowing them to choose returning to the good side. They are even allowed to wield god like power, and resist loosing themselves by remembering beloved persons, and controlling massive demons (inner and outer) through... love, of those persons and fond memories. The person in my avatar is mumbling right about now...
  • AnduinAnduin Member Posts: 5,745
    I @Anduin is the example of an evil overlord who has WON! Although if I am fictional or not is another debate for another time...

    I follow these simple rules that can be found here...

    http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html

    Plus I like this book here... Good gets it's hiney well and truly kicked... Even if you see it coming on the very first page... I actually read all three in the trilogy and thoroughly recommend them all (made me cry.)

    image

    What if the dark lord won indeed...



  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,155
    @BelgarathMTH Elric is maybe in the middle, as a worshipper of the Lords of Chaos and the ruler of a evil empire I certainly don't see him as good, maybe he shifts towards Chaotic Neutral and maybe to Lawful Neutral (who won't serve Destiny?) later, but he is evil most of the time (not without a reason, but he's evil, even with his reasons).
  • mlnevesemlnevese Member, Moderator Posts: 10,214
    I would say that in the entire Darksun storyline evil already won, it rules the world and there is no way it will ever change. Sometimes good has some small victories and that is it, no real chance of a final victory or of ever reconstructing the world.
  • mlnevesemlnevese Member, Moderator Posts: 10,214
    @Anduin I could almost swear that eggs and omelettes were somehow related.
  • abacusabacus Member Posts: 1,307
    I think it's when the omelette includes a sprinkling of body parts that people take umbrage.
  • AnduinAnduin Member Posts: 5,745
    Personally I take umbrage if any of the egg shell finds its way into my omelette... Perhaps I'm picky. Back to finding fantasy works where evil triumphs...
  • LoubLoub Member Posts: 471
    edited February 2014
    Most OWoD apocalyptic scenarios end in a very bad way, such as leaving the planet a lifeless rock or having ancient vampires ascend to godhood.
    But then, most of the time, the "heroes" are not exactly good, either.
  • jackjackjackjack Member Posts: 3,251
    I'm always putting hot sauce on my eggs and each time I do, I can't help but notice how it ends up looking like carnage a la carte.
  • MichailMichail Member Posts: 196
    Evil winning in fantasy? To claim so, means you need well defined and separate good and evil. Villains with no admirable or redeeming qualities winning in a decisive manner over knights in shining armor. With no consolation or hope for the losing side. So, no, even Game of thrones does not quite cut it for me.
    But maybe you should check this out (lots of examples): http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/TheBadGuyWins/Literature
    and also
    http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheBadGuyWins
  • CorvinoCorvino Member Posts: 2,269
    edited February 2014
    Good link @Michail. I usually think of Nineteen Eighty-Four and Brave New World as literature, but they're just sci-fi that was so influential it was absorbed.

    If I recall correctly the steampunk novel The Difference Engine by William Gibson and Bruce Sterling has a very murky ending. The Good Guys succeed in their objectives but you're given the idea that whatever they achieved may well have been irrelevant, and the future-present described is bleak to say the least.

    *Edit* Thinking about it, there are quite a lot of "Bad guys win" scenarios in sci-fi, but it's rare in fantasy. This might be because they often explore different themes. Sci-fi is much more likely to be dystopian, to look at totalitarianism, human extinction, genocide and others. Analogies, parables and cautionary tales are often dressed up as sci-fi as well, and so good can be allowed to fail.

    Fantasy is usually more escapist, with the focus on a hero or heroine and their personal struggle rather than on the world and system as a whole. With the focus on the character and their development then allowing them to fail stops it fully coming to fruition, but if the story is actually about the world then the character may have to die for the story to make sense. The Ministry of Love can crush Winston Smith, but Khan cannot kill Kirk.
  • LadyRhianLadyRhian Member Posts: 14,694
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Villains_by_Necessity
    Jacqueline Carey's Godslayer and Banewreaker (Good triumphs, but "Evil" isn't as bad as he is painted. As the back of the book asks "If all that is good considers you evil, are you?")
    Robin Hobb's books usually feature at least one horrible person as a protagonist.
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