@BelgarathMTH In defense of GTA, the main characters of those games are anti-heroes.
@mlnvese Things are pretty bleak in Dark Sun, but if you killed the Dragon and got rid of or redeemed the other Sorcerer-Kings, it might be possible to heal the world. There are still pockets of life and nature out there in the world of Athas, and they could hold the seeds for the world's resurrection.
You guys might want to read some Steven Erikson if you want some mature fantasy. That includes you people who are tired of "the good guys always wins". Although I love A song of Ice and Fire, Erikson mops the floor with GRR Martin in my humble opinion. Takes a little while to get into though - first book is titled "Gardens of the moon".
I found Robin Hobb to be good fun, but the twists seemed a bit unmotivated and unrealistic after a while, sort of how Pillars of the Earth always had that recurring villain which was interesting at first, but became slightly ridiculous after a while... All in my opinion of course.
the Berserk anime. Not only does evil completely and utterly come out on top in a horrific fashion, but you could argue that good never even existed in that world. I usually like black and white morality but that made for interesting viewing.
the Berserk anime. Not only does evil completely and utterly come out on top in a horrific fashion, but you could argue that good never even existed in that world. I usually like black and white morality but that made for interesting viewing.
Only if you're prepared to go without sleep for the first several nights after reaching the end.
I love that anime/story, but gods did it traumatize me.
@aristillius you are now even more awesome for liking pillars of the earth like @nonnahswriter and myself. I am interested in which villain you were referring to though. The reelz version of the sequel World Without End had the worst villains I've ever seen (though the novel is supposedly much better)
@booinyoureyes Ah, I have not watched the series, I was referring to the books. Now that I think about it I guess it might fit very well as a series! I liked the novels quite a lot, but as I mentioned I had issues with the villain. I am unsure about how he is depicted in film, but I am thinking about the count who has a dreadful mother. I just found him to be a bland villain in the novels - a black villain, as opposed to G.r.r. Martin's grey villains.
@Anduin You'll appreciate this. After our conversation, I pulled my old books off the shelf and made it to Vonotar's Brumalmarc throne room, deep under the icy wastes of Kalte. While I was busy killing his Akraa'Neoner, he murdered Loi Kymar in psychic combat. Vonotar escaped and I failed in my mission. Sigh. Oh well, back to Flight From The Dark.
I had started a thread about Lone Wolf a while ago @Anduin & @jackjack, trying to find out if anyone else had ever been addicted to the series. If you haven't already seen that, these links might get you excited about them again:
@booinyoureyes Ah, I have not watched the series, I was referring to the books. Now that I think about it I guess it might fit very well as a series! I liked the novels quite a lot, but as I mentioned I had issues with the villain. I am unsure about how he is depicted in film, but I am thinking about the count who has a dreadful mother. I just found him to be a bland villain in the novels - a black villain, as opposed to G.r.r. Martin's grey villains.
@Aristillius ohhhh okay. I thought you may have been referring to Waleran, who I thought was an excellent villain.
BTW, Ken Follet has a summer home near to where I go to school.
As much as I appreciate the love @Isandir and the dusting off of tomes that must have yellowed with age @Jackjack ...
All the books (not quite but soon!) are available on android on a fancy reader that ensures you adhere to the rules... Because when we close our eyes and use the random number sheet at the back of the book... we all know where the 9 is...
Being the awesome kinda guy I am... I suggested some improvements to the after fight pop up, which he implemented, because the guy doing it is even more awesomer than I.
It just hit me. The six "war of the spider queen" books (supervised by Salvatore). Most characters are evil, some are decent, a few are good, but the worst of them prevail over everyone else in a definite and unequivocal manner, with no silver linings. The "lady penitent trilogy" that follows and concerns, among other things, the fate of some of the drow in these books, doesn't really fix this.
Saw The Curse of the Golden Flower the other day, in which evil definitely wins, though not without losses.
[Spoiler]The Emperor of China is married and has three sons. He is also slowly poisoning his wife (forcing her to take 'medicine' that drives her insane) because he only married her for her lands. The second son finds out and raises an army of 10.000 men to dispose of the evil emperor. The third son rebels against the favor given to the first son and stabs his eldest brother in the back, but two minutes later, ninja's have taken out his allies and the emperor has beaten his youngest son to death with a gilded belt. The rebelling army arrives, walks right into the emperor's trap and gets slaughtered. His only remaining son is spared, but when forced to feed his mother the poison, he kills himself while she watches in horror and the emperor chuckles.
'The emperor wins' might be overstating it, but the noble rebellion its commander and the victimised empress are crushed beneath the boot of the cruel and heartless emperor. It's what people usually call 'a downer ending'.[/spoiler]
Ah but you misunderstand whole the point of "Hero"!
It was within the protagonist's ability to kill the 'Emperor' (He isn't actually an emperor yet, and it is a stretch to call him evil... ruthless? yes... enjoys kicking babies? no. :P), but he chooses not to because he realises that the chaos and anarchy of hundreds of years of endemic warfare amongst the kingdoms has caused untold suffering for the peoples of the 'world', and only the king of the State of Qin is capable of uniting 'the world' and ending this suffering.
The two words that persuades him to abandon his mission to assassinate the "King of Qin" were 天下, which means "All Under Heaven". Basically the protagonist decides to abandon his personal loyalties to his own kingdom, his hatred of the Qin and his promises to those who had sacrificed so much to offer him this opportunity, all for the 'greater good' of "All Under Heaven".
"Hero" was essentially a piece of LAWFUL propaganda in film form. It has been attacked by critics for basically expressing the view that autocracy and tyranny are acceptable in order to maintain order in society, and prevent or stop anarchy.
By the way, "Hero" is based on history. The King of Qin was the first man to unite China after centuries of strife known as the Warring States Period (not to be confused with the similarly named, but much later period, in Japan), which finally ended with the State of Qin conquering all the other six states and establishing the Qin Dynasty, and Qinshihuang as China's first Emperor.
During and after his rise to power, there were many attempts on his life, and one assassin got close enough that the Emperor had to defend himself with his own sword. "Hero" is a very much fictional and dramatised version of that event.
The Qin Empire, like its ruler, was ruthless in its ambition, and its oppressive policies led to massive rebellions that ended the dynasty not long after the death of its first Emperor, whose sons were relatively incompetent in comparison. However, the Qin Empire gave rise to the concept of China has a single civilisation, rather than a collection of kingdoms. It ruthlessly stamped out the "Hundred Schools of Thought" of earlier periods, and upheld Legalism (and to a lesser extent Confucianism) as China's guiding philosophy (political standardization).
The Qin Dynasty also unified China culturally and linguistically. Although Chinese people still speak wildly different dialects, such that a Northerner like me cannot understand Cantonese or other Southern dialects, all Chinese people share the same written script, so we can understand each other perfectly if we wrote down what we say. Other reforms included the standardization of measurements of weight and length, the calender system, the width of roads, the distance between rails for chariot tracks... etc.
The "Mandate of Heaven" was also adopted as a concept to legitimise the rule of the Qin Dynasty, a concept that later Chinese dynasties would espouse until the end of the Imperial system in 1912.
@Heindrich awesome post. I understood the peace through tyranny.
Knew about the warring states period. (An exhibition of the terracotta army that this emperor built visited England, feel bad because I've forgotten his name... )
That he had to defend himself from assassins is sooo cool. Now my second favourite emperor of all time.
Attila and Genghis got killed by their wives in bed... it just doesn't seem like the most heroic way to die...
Hmmm... in history do the evil guys always lose as well? I know evil can cause strife, but the does the natural human condition naturally rebel from it?
Knew about the warring states period. (An exhibition of the terracotta army that this emperor built visited England, feel bad because I've forgotten his name... )
@Anduin His name was Ying Zheng (嬴政), but no Chinese person would dare address an Emperor by name, and so his commonly used name was Qin Shi Huang (秦始皇), which means "First Emperor of Qin".
When he united China and established the first Imperial Dynasty, he assumed that his descendents would rule forever, and hence there would be a Second Emperor, Third Emperor, Fourth... etc. He was wrong...
Hmmm... in history do the evil guys always lose as well? I know evil can cause strife, but the does the natural human condition naturally rebel from it?
Well in real life, good and evil is much more ambiguous. Take the First Emperor as an example. His policies in modern terms would be considered genocide... i.e. the violent conquest of the entire world (as he knew it), the forcible eradication of other cultures, languages and philosophy. He also began huge civil engineering projects like the Terracotta Army, Palaces and the Great Wall, which all required massive amounts of labour, much of which was forced. Many thousands died in forced relocation from their homes to the frontiers to build fortifications against Xiong'nu nomads (ancestors of the Huns and Mongols).
All of which can be classified as evil, and you can't say that he 'lost', since his empire only crumbled after his death. However, he created China and ended centuries of civil war, from the Spring and Autumn Period (starting in 771 BC) to the Warring States Period (which is basically an intensification of the ongoing civil war) that finally ended with his victory in 221 BC. His brutal unification of China arguably prevented the kind of endemic warfare between European kingdoms/nations that lasted until... well, arguably the end of WW2, the first time in European history that the continent has been relatively peaceful. When his empire fell and the northern fortifications (proto-Great Wall) were allowed to fall into disrepair, China did indeed suffer terribly at the hands of Xiong'nu invaders, who would not be repelled until the third Emperor of the Han Dynasty that followed the Qin.
In history there are few people who consider themselves truly evil. It all depends on perspective.
@Aristillius I'm a bit of a history geek, so of course I'd agree with that. XD
Actually I've written a short 'book' that I call "A Brief History of China". It is as 'brief' as I can tell a story almost 4,000 years long and covering an area larger than Europe... but it's under 30 A4 pages, and provides a broad overview of Chinese history. If you/anyone is interested, I can send it to you or copy-paste it in a separate thread. I obviously don't want to do it here since that'd be de-railing this interesting thread.
Hmmm... in history do the evil guys always lose as well? I know evil can cause strife, but the does the natural human condition naturally rebel from it?
In real life good hardly ever wins, because only evil is fighting to begin with. All you have is lesser evils beating bigger evils.
Comments
Blackadder season 3
In defense of GTA, the main characters of those games are anti-heroes.
@mlnvese
Things are pretty bleak in Dark Sun, but if you killed the Dragon and got rid of or redeemed the other Sorcerer-Kings, it might be possible to heal the world. There are still pockets of life and nature out there in the world of Athas, and they could hold the seeds for the world's resurrection.
Any choose your own adventure book in which the page or choice you make results in your death.
The warlock on firetop mountain wins...
Naar and his minions run rampant...
And @Jackjack gets to be super happy as Vonator, one of his favourite characters of all time, wins!
Shame on your youthful years if you and your kindle reader do not understand!
I found Robin Hobb to be good fun, but the twists seemed a bit unmotivated and unrealistic after a while, sort of how Pillars of the Earth always had that recurring villain which was interesting at first, but became slightly ridiculous after a while... All in my opinion of course.
I love that anime/story, but gods did it traumatize me.
You'll appreciate this. After our conversation, I pulled my old books off the shelf and made it to Vonotar's Brumalmarc throne room, deep under the icy wastes of Kalte. While I was busy killing his Akraa'Neoner, he murdered Loi Kymar in psychic combat. Vonotar escaped and I failed in my mission.
Sigh. Oh well, back to Flight From The Dark.
All the Lone Wolf books online: http://www.projectaon.org/en/Main/Books
A free program that allows you to play them (and tracks everything for you): http://www.projectaon.org/staff/david/index.php
The first in a planned series of mobile games: http://lonewolfthegame.com/
BTW, Ken Follet has a summer home near to where I go to school.
Planescape Torment - you can do some really evil things in the game and still complete it.
All the books (not quite but soon!) are available on android on a fancy reader that ensures you adhere to the rules... Because when we close our eyes and use the random number sheet at the back of the book... we all know where the 9 is...
Being the awesome kinda guy I am... I suggested some improvements to the after fight pop up, which he implemented, because the guy doing it is even more awesomer than I.
Go to Google play and search Lone Wolf Saga.
[Spoiler]The Emperor of China is married and has three sons. He is also slowly poisoning his wife (forcing her to take 'medicine' that drives her insane) because he only married her for her lands.
The second son finds out and raises an army of 10.000 men to dispose of the evil emperor. The third son rebels against the favor given to the first son and stabs his eldest brother in the back, but two minutes later, ninja's have taken out his allies and the emperor has beaten his youngest son to death with a gilded belt.
The rebelling army arrives, walks right into the emperor's trap and gets slaughtered. His only remaining son is spared, but when forced to feed his mother the poison, he kills himself while she watches in horror and the emperor chuckles.
'The emperor wins' might be overstating it, but the noble rebellion its commander and the victimised empress are crushed beneath the boot of the cruel and heartless emperor.
It's what people usually call 'a downer ending'.[/spoiler]
No evil emperor was toppled.
Just love the ending, best dartboard ever...
Ah but you misunderstand whole the point of "Hero"!
It was within the protagonist's ability to kill the 'Emperor' (He isn't actually an emperor yet, and it is a stretch to call him evil... ruthless? yes... enjoys kicking babies? no. :P), but he chooses not to because he realises that the chaos and anarchy of hundreds of years of endemic warfare amongst the kingdoms has caused untold suffering for the peoples of the 'world', and only the king of the State of Qin is capable of uniting 'the world' and ending this suffering.
The two words that persuades him to abandon his mission to assassinate the "King of Qin" were 天下, which means "All Under Heaven". Basically the protagonist decides to abandon his personal loyalties to his own kingdom, his hatred of the Qin and his promises to those who had sacrificed so much to offer him this opportunity, all for the 'greater good' of "All Under Heaven".
"Hero" was essentially a piece of LAWFUL propaganda in film form. It has been attacked by critics for basically expressing the view that autocracy and tyranny are acceptable in order to maintain order in society, and prevent or stop anarchy.
By the way, "Hero" is based on history. The King of Qin was the first man to unite China after centuries of strife known as the Warring States Period (not to be confused with the similarly named, but much later period, in Japan), which finally ended with the State of Qin conquering all the other six states and establishing the Qin Dynasty, and Qinshihuang as China's first Emperor.
During and after his rise to power, there were many attempts on his life, and one assassin got close enough that the Emperor had to defend himself with his own sword. "Hero" is a very much fictional and dramatised version of that event.
The Qin Empire, like its ruler, was ruthless in its ambition, and its oppressive policies led to massive rebellions that ended the dynasty not long after the death of its first Emperor, whose sons were relatively incompetent in comparison. However, the Qin Empire gave rise to the concept of China has a single civilisation, rather than a collection of kingdoms. It ruthlessly stamped out the "Hundred Schools of Thought" of earlier periods, and upheld Legalism (and to a lesser extent Confucianism) as China's guiding philosophy (political standardization).
The Qin Dynasty also unified China culturally and linguistically. Although Chinese people still speak wildly different dialects, such that a Northerner like me cannot understand Cantonese or other Southern dialects, all Chinese people share the same written script, so we can understand each other perfectly if we wrote down what we say. Other reforms included the standardization of measurements of weight and length, the calender system, the width of roads, the distance between rails for chariot tracks... etc.
The "Mandate of Heaven" was also adopted as a concept to legitimise the rule of the Qin Dynasty, a concept that later Chinese dynasties would espouse until the end of the Imperial system in 1912.
Knew about the warring states period. (An exhibition of the terracotta army that this emperor built visited England, feel bad because I've forgotten his name... )
That he had to defend himself from assassins is sooo cool. Now my second favourite emperor of all time.
Attila and Genghis got killed by their wives in bed... it just doesn't seem like the most heroic way to die...
Hmmm... in history do the evil guys always lose as well? I know evil can cause strife, but the does the natural human condition naturally rebel from it?
His name was Ying Zheng (嬴政), but no Chinese person would dare address an Emperor by name, and so his commonly used name was Qin Shi Huang (秦始皇), which means "First Emperor of Qin".
When he united China and established the first Imperial Dynasty, he assumed that his descendents would rule forever, and hence there would be a Second Emperor, Third Emperor, Fourth... etc. He was wrong...
"Hero" was based off this historical event.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jing_Ke Well in real life, good and evil is much more ambiguous. Take the First Emperor as an example. His policies in modern terms would be considered genocide... i.e. the violent conquest of the entire world (as he knew it), the forcible eradication of other cultures, languages and philosophy. He also began huge civil engineering projects like the Terracotta Army, Palaces and the Great Wall, which all required massive amounts of labour, much of which was forced. Many thousands died in forced relocation from their homes to the frontiers to build fortifications against Xiong'nu nomads (ancestors of the Huns and Mongols).
All of which can be classified as evil, and you can't say that he 'lost', since his empire only crumbled after his death. However, he created China and ended centuries of civil war, from the Spring and Autumn Period (starting in 771 BC) to the Warring States Period (which is basically an intensification of the ongoing civil war) that finally ended with his victory in 221 BC. His brutal unification of China arguably prevented the kind of endemic warfare between European kingdoms/nations that lasted until... well, arguably the end of WW2, the first time in European history that the continent has been relatively peaceful. When his empire fell and the northern fortifications (proto-Great Wall) were allowed to fall into disrepair, China did indeed suffer terribly at the hands of Xiong'nu invaders, who would not be repelled until the third Emperor of the Han Dynasty that followed the Qin.
In history there are few people who consider themselves truly evil. It all depends on perspective.
I'm a bit of a history geek, so of course I'd agree with that. XD
Actually I've written a short 'book' that I call "A Brief History of China". It is as 'brief' as I can tell a story almost 4,000 years long and covering an area larger than Europe... but it's under 30 A4 pages, and provides a broad overview of Chinese history. If you/anyone is interested, I can send it to you or copy-paste it in a separate thread. I obviously don't want to do it here since that'd be de-railing this interesting thread.
Although perhaps focus on heros and villains from the past? This is a forum based on high adventure after all!